The Gospel According to Matthew

[Yuki Sohma]

He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.

And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you.

[Telstra]

....................

[Yuki Sohma]

Hey Telstra,

Please excuse the veiled attempt at acknowledging the resurrection of Jesus the Christ from the earthly and spiritual grave. The words I chose to use come from the Gospel according to St Matthew (KJV) and were spoken by an angel to Jesus' disciples when the disciples came to the garden tomb seeking the body of Jesus.

ys

[Telstra]

But what is this thread about ?
Shouldn't a thread have some sort of questions ?

[Yuki Sohma]

But what is this thread about ?
Shouldn't a thread have some sort of questions ?

I guess so. Can't think of one right now though. Well, maybe a question could be something like Do you believe in angels because St. Matthew speaks of angels visiting the tomb of Jesus the Christ or even something like Were they tomb raiders or angels who spoke to Jesus' disciples at Jesus' tomb on the first Easter Sunday?

[BENDERBOY]

I believe in angels, and there opposites.

[GiancarloC]

My post was deleted... =/ This thread is evangelizing... I was not personally attacking anyone.

[cockbrain]

my post was deleted too

[FirmaFan]

I believe in angels, and there opposites.

Would you mind if I ask your reasons for believing in these?

[Mariatenebre]

I guess so. Can't think of one right now though. Well, maybe a question could be something like Do you believe in angels because St. Matthew speaks of angels visiting the tomb of Jesus the Christ or even something like Were they tomb raiders or angels who spoke to Jesus' disciples at Jesus' tomb on the first Easter Sunday?

I believe in angels though not in the Christian sense. I believe Jesus was just a deluded Middle Easterner with a god complex nothing more.

[Yuki Sohma]

I believe in angels though not in the Christian sense. I believe Jesus was just a deluded Middle Easterner with a god complex nothing more.

That's fair enough. Supernatural forces and phenomena are always an interesting topic. Of course there's always the concepts of extraterrestrial life (from the Latin words: extra ["beyond", or "not of"] and terrestris ["of or belonging to Earth"]) cruising the galaxy and visiting the earth. I am always fascinated by ancient graphics depicting alien looking astronauts or then again are the supposed ancient graphics actually graphic of earthlings from somewhere in the future doing the time travel thing.

[Love me 2]

It's going to be fun to watch this thread grow.

[GiancarloC]

Going to be fun? I don't see the reason why it will.

[Yuki Sohma]

I believe in angels though not in the Christian sense.

Mariatenebre's allusion to non-christian angels really peeked my interest. As such, I learned that Angels or angelic-like beings are mentioned and alluded to in many other religions including several middle-eastern religions as well as in native American and other cultures. Angelology (the study of angels) indicates that within In Zoroastrianism angels are depicted as beings acting as connectors between humans and other worlds.

Angels (Arabic: ملائكة , Malāʾikah) are mentioned often in the Qur'an and Hadith. Believing in angels is one of the six Articles of Faith of Islamic studies and beliefs. Angels are also described in the Bahá'í Faith, Neoplatonism, Sikhism, Brahma Kumaris,and in the teachings of Theosophy. Good stuff.

ys

[Brian Smith]

The most striking reference to "angels" in the Old Testament, as far as I am concerned, is in the first chapter of the Book of Ezekiel:

1 Now it came to pass in the thirtieth year, in the fourth month, in the fifth day of the month, as I was among the captives by the river of Chebar, that the heavens were opened, and I saw visions of God.

2 In the fifth day of the month, which was the fifth year of king Jehoiachin's captivity,

3 The word of the Lord came expressly unto Ezekiel the priest, the son of Buzi, in the land of the Chaldeans by the river Chebar; and the hand of the Lord was there upon him.

4 And I looked, and, behold, a whirlwind came out of the north, a great cloud, and a fire infolding itself, and a brightness was about it, and out of the midst thereof as the colour of amber, out of the midst of the fire.

5 Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance; they had the likeness of a man.

6 And every one had four faces, and every one had four wings.

7 And their feet were straight feet; and the sole of their feet was like the sole of a calf's foot: and they sparkled like the colour of burnished brass.

8 And they had the hands of a man under their wings on their four sides; and they four had their faces and their wings.

9 Their wings were joined one to another; they turned not when they went; they went every one straight forward.

10 As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle.

11 Thus were their faces: and their wings were stretched upward; two wings of every one were joined one to another, and two covered their bodies.

12 And they went every one straight forward: whither the spirit was to go, they went; and they turned not when they went.

13 As for the likeness of the living creatures, their appearance was like burning coals of fire, and like the appearance of lamps: it went up and down among the living creatures; and the fire was bright, and out of the fire went forth lightning.

14 And the living creatures ran and returned as the appearance of a flash of lightning.

15 Now as I beheld the living creatures, behold one wheel upon the earth by the living creatures, with his four faces.

16 The appearance of the wheels and their work was like unto the colour of a beryl: and they four had one likeness: and their appearance and their work was as it were a wheel in the middle of a wheel.

17 When they went, they went upon their four sides: and they turned not when they went.

18 As for their rings, they were so high that they were dreadful; and their rings were full of eyes round about them four.

19 And when the living creatures went, the wheels went by them: and when the living creatures were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up.

20 Whithersoever the spirit was to go, they went, thither was their spirit to go; and the wheels were lifted up over against them: for the spirit of the living creature was in the wheels.

21 When those went, these went; and when those stood, these stood; and when those were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up over against them: for the spirit of the living creature was in the wheels.

22 And the likeness of the firmament upon the heads of the living creature was as the colour of the terrible crystal, stretched forth over their heads above.

23 And under the firmament were their wings straight, the one toward the other: every one had two, which covered on this side, and every one had two, which covered on that side, their bodies.

24 And when they went, I heard the noise of their wings, like the noise of great waters, as the voice of the Almighty, the voice of speech, as the noise of an host: when they stood, they let down their wings.

25 And there was a voice from the firmament that was over their heads, when they stood, and had let down their wings.

26 And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it.

27 And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about.

28 As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.

Make of that what you will.

[BENDERBOY]

Would you mind if I ask your reasons for believing in these?

I only believe what i've seen, and i believe i've seen angels.

[Love me 2]

I only believe what i've seen, and i believe i've seen angels.

Me too! I have had an experience of an Angel several years ago.

[Brian Smith]

Me too! I have had an experience of an Angel several years ago.

Did you ask it in for tea?

[BENDERBOY]

Me too! I have had an experience of an Angel several years ago.

Mine, and i say mine, because i belive he was my guardian angel came just before i went in for a life saving operation.
He said nothing just stood at the foot of my bed.

Did you ask it in for tea?

...................

[CupidBoy]

Mine, and i say mine, because i belive he was my guardian angel came just before i went in for a life saving operation.
He said nothing just stood at the foot of my bed.



...................

That lucky angel, I believe in angels too. I hope if I die before you I become your guardian angel.

[Brian Smith]

...................

Well, I just value hospitality. I would hope, if I were to pay someone a call, that I would be treated similarly.

[BENDERBOY]

Well, I just value hospitality. I would hope, if I were to pay someone a call, that I would be treated similarly.

Well if you turn up at the foot of my bed. i'll be real sure to offer you a warm welcome.

[Love me 2]

Did you ask it in for tea?

Nope! I was too sick to ask. She healed me of a life threatening condition.

[BENDERBOY]

Nope! I was too sick to ask. She healed me of a life threatening condition.

Is that you MikeyLove ?

Sorry you just remind me of a departed jubber.

[zoltanspawn]

Is that you MikeyLove ?

Sorry you just remind me of a departed jubber.

Must we continue with this silly charade, Opinterph? It's plain to everyone.

WELCOME back, Mikey.

[sixthson]

My post was deleted... =/ This thread is evangelizing... I was not personally attacking anyone.

This is the religion forum.

[BENDERBOY]

Must we continue with this silly charade, Opinterph? It's plain to everyone.

WELCOME back, Mikey.

Have i said something wrong ?

[zoltanspawn]

Have i said something wrong ?

No, I don't think so.

[BENDERBOY]

No, I don't think so.

That's a relief.

[Telstra]

Have i said something wrong ?

Yes,
too many atheists opposed Mikey's views

[zoltanspawn]

Yes,
too many atheists opposed Mikey's views

So? Mikey hardly came across as a shrinking violet.

[Brian Smith]

Nope! I was too sick to ask. She healed me of a life threatening condition.

Well, that was very nice of her.

[BENDERBOY]

Yes,
too many atheists opposed Mikey's views

I'm sorry, i don't follow all the goings on over here very much, i just thought i remembered MikeyLove mentioning similar stuff that's in Love Me 2's post, i'm probably wrong. no biggie.

[Yuki Sohma]

I ain't never done seen an angel, yet.

[johaninsc]

Yes,
too many atheists opposed Mikey's views

you lost me there, Telly...

[Telstra]

I'm joking,
bad joke remember?

[Yuki Sohma]

According to the Kabbalah there are ten archangels --

1) Metatron
2) Raziel
3) Tzaphkiel
4) Tzadkiel
5) Khamael
6) Raphael
7) Haniel
8) Michael
9) Gabriel
10) Sandalphon

[mbamike]

Back to discussing angels. . .

Psalm 91

11 For he will give his angels charge of you
to guard you in all your ways.
12 On their hands they will bear you up,
lest you dash your foot against a stone.
13 You will tread on the lion and the adder,
the young lion and the serpent you will trample under foot.

[Brian Smith]

Back to discussing angels. . .

Psalm 91

11 For he will give his angels charge of you
to guard you in all your ways.
12 On their hands they will bear you up,
lest you dash your foot against a stone.
13 You will tread on the lion and the adder,
the young lion and the serpent you will trample under foot.

כִּי מַלְאָכָיו, pronounced "mal'äkhäyw," similar to "Malachi," is actually a word for "messenger." It's interesting to wonder about what the intended usage of the term was here. On what basis do you argue that the psalm was intended to refer to "angels" as in the modern sense?

[Brian Smith]

Well if you turn up at the foot of my bed. i'll be real sure to offer you a warm welcome.

In fact, if you have a close encounter with anything unusual, I suggest reacting to it with sobriety and affection. This is the only effective way of dealing with delusional episodes. You should never try too hard to reject a delusion because doing so could just intensify any disturbances related to it. If you react to things that are strange and unusual with a sense of cool toleration and warm acceptance, you can avoid serious problems.

Note, I did not go too far in denying Love me 2's experience with an angel. It's his experience, and it's really very real to him. Denying it too strenuously contradicts his world concept in a way that is very painful to him, and this would just lead to him closing ranks and becoming defensive.

Therefore, if he says he saw an angel, he saw an angel. If he says she did something nice for him, that was very nice of her. By being gentle and oblique with my skepticism, I can prevent an unnecessary defensive reaction.

Besides, it isn't like it's actually hurting anybody that he believes in angels. The argument over whether or not he actually saw something supernatural is ridiculous and pointless. In the field of clinical psychology, it is dull routine for practitioners to humor patients who believe they turn into unicorns in the light of the full moon.

It's not that I believe him, but it's just pointless to try to contradict him. It upsets him, and it doesn't do a damn thing for me. On the other hand, it helps everybody involved if I choose to approach the subject of his encounter in a down-to-earth, sober manner.

And that's why, if you see angels or demons in your bedroom, you must always smile at them politely, and invite them down for a spot of tea or a pot of coffee. This is a perfectly appropriate reaction, whether they are actually supernatural beings or a delusional fantasy. A little bit of hospitality never hurt anybody.

[Yuki Sohma]

As a side note--I've read many a convincing angel or demon interacting with humans testimony. I have to only wonder that since I've not directly had any interactions (that I know of) it certainly does not mean others have not.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints list Adam (the first man) as being the archangel Michael, that the angel Gabriel lived on the earth as Noah and that the Angel Moroni first lived in a pre-Columbian American civilization as the 5th-century prophet-warrior named Moroni.

[Yuki Sohma]

Some examples of Islamic angels (in alphabetical order):

Darda'il: The angels who travel in the earth searching out assemblies where people remember God’s name.

Harut: An angel mentioned in Qur'an, who were sent down to test the people at Babylon.

Israfil: The angel that will blow the trumpet on the Day of Judgement, or Al-Qiyama.

Jibrail: The archangel Gabriel (Jibra'il) is an archangel who serves as a messenger from God.

Katibin: An angel who records a person's good and bad deeds.

Kiraman: An angel who records a person's good and bad deeds.

Maalik: The angel who keeps or guards hellfire.

Malak Al-maut: The angel of death.

Marut: An angel mentioned in Qur'an, who were sent down to test the people at Babylon.

Michael: The angel of nature.

Mu'aqqibat: A class of guardian angels who keep people from death until its decreed time.

Munkar: An angel who tests the faith of the dead in their graves asking the soul of the dead person questions. If the person fails the questions, the angel makes the man suffer until the Day of Judgement. If the soul passes the questions, they will have a pleasant time in the grave until the Day of Judgement.

Nakir: An angel who tests the faith of the dead in their graves asking the soul of the dead person questions. If the person fails the questions, the angel makes the man suffer until the Day of Judgement. If the soul passes the questions, they will have a pleasant time in the grave until the Day of Judgement.

Ridwan: The angel in charge of maintaining Jannah or Paradise.

[Brian Smith]

Some examples of Islamic angels (in alphabetical order):

Darda'il: The angels who travel in the earth searching out assemblies where people remember God’s name.

Harut: An angel mentioned in Qur'an, who were sent down to test the people at Babylon.

Israfil: The angel that will blow the trumpet on the Day of Judgement, or Al-Qiyama.

Jibrail: The archangel Gabriel (Jibra'il) is an archangel who serves as a messenger from God.

Katibin: An angel who records a person's good and bad deeds.

((truncated))

Ah, what text does that come from? This actually reminds me a bit of the classification system I've seen for the Chinese Dragons:

Tienlong: Celestial dragon

Shenlong: Thunder dragon

Fucanlong: Guardian of the underworld

Dilong: Earth dragon

Yinglong: Rain dragon

Jiaolong: King of aquatic beasts

Carr, Michael. 1990. "Chinese Dragon Names", Linguistics of the Tibeto-Burman Area 13.2:87-189. ((or just go to the Wikipedia article on Chinese dragons. It sounds like you are a student, though, and I figured there might be some chance you would have access to Berkeley's archives. Original source material is so much better))

This kind of hierarchy seems to be a common theme in world religions, and I just can't help but think that "monotheism" is an unnatural form of religion. I imagine that every attempted "monotheistic" religion ever founded has eventually metamorphosed into a pantheon of saints, angels, and demonic underworld deities, just like those we find in Catholicism and Islam.

They don't acknowledge that they are doing it, though, and they make all kinds of excuses like, "well, they're all controlled by God." Well, is that really unlike the Hindu belief that their devas are all "avatars" of Brahman? Even so, we regard Hinduism as a "polytheistic" religion.

I think the closest thing to real monotheism is that pursued by the philosophers, who sought to get past all anthropomorphic artifice ascribed to divinity. Eventually, when you get down to doing away with anthropomorphic qualities such as "good" and "evil," you are left with the Physicist's God: the Higgs boson.

But the Higgs boson is a far cry from a personal god. That's really one of the reasons that I really prefer the more fanciful concepts stemming from simple superstition, such as Chinese dragons or Icelandic land wights. They just have more personal charm.

Now, there is a thought: have you ever had a close encounter with a land wight?

As someone who shuns superstition, I would only venture to say that I have been in places that had sufficient character and liveliness that they "spoke to me." One of those places was the Hairpin turn on the way down into North Adams, Massachusetts, where we stopped on our way to a campout on Mount Greylock. My partner and I stood on the balcony of that restaurant, and we watched as a small, dense cloud got trapped inside the valley. We watched as it collided with one obstruction, changed direction, collided with another, then finally spread and dissipated into mist over North Adams. Very romantic. If I were to go out in search of land wights, that's where I would start looking.

I really ought to look more deeply into Icelandic culture and folklore, actually. I've spent too much time mucking about in the Middle East.

[Yuki Sohma]

Ah, what text does that come from?

A good source for the study of angels and the Islamic faith is S. Murata's 1991 work, The Angels Islamic Spirituality: Foundations

[Brian Smith]

A good source for the study of angels and the Islamic faith is S. Murata's 1991 work, The Angels Islamic Spirituality: Foundations

Alright, I found a page of excerpts from the text.

Now, would you say that the ideas represented here are more characteristic of the Maturidi, Ash'ari or Athari school of Islamic thought? You have 30 seconds.

[Yuki Sohma]

Now, would you say that the ideas represented here are more characteristic of the Maturidi, Ash'ari or Athari school of Islamic thought? You have 30 seconds.

I'm going to say Athari since the second of Athari's six key pillars of faith is defined as being "Allah's Angels."

[Brian Smith]

I'm going to say Athari since the second of Athari's six key pillars of faith is defined as being "Allah's Angels."

I was thinking more Ash'ari, but the two schools are closely related. Good boy! You get a treat!

Although you could make an argument for Athari, other works b Murata reflect Asharite influences. You can look over her works yourself, and you might see how I might draw this conclusion.

A key point to keep in mind about the Athari doctrine is its stress on textualism. Adherents of this doctrine are rabidly opposed to dialectic or any kind of innovation.

The importance of angels in Asharite doctrine is related to its adherents' belief in "occasionalism," which is the belief that created things are not capable of being efficient causes. The idea of occasionalism was pioneered by al-Ghazali, author of The Incoherence of the Philosophers. He was one of the chief influences of Thomas Aquinas.

And we have one of al-Ghazali's staunchest opponents to thank, to a large extent, for the rebirth of Western philosophy, Ibn Rushd, largely known to westerners as "Averroes." Averroes, author of the Incoherence of the Incoherence, was a defender of Aristotelian philosophy, and he had an immense impact on European scholasticism.

However, the Asharite school of thought eventually won out in Islam, and us dirty westerners followed Averroes down the path of iniquity and depravity, leading to the growth of secularism and the toleration of usury and sodomy.

[Yuki Sohma]

... us dirty westerners followed Averroes down the path of iniquity and depravity, leading to the growth of secularism and the toleration of usury and sodomy.

Usury seems to be the paste keeping the production, distribution, and consumption of goods and services. Not sure of the galactic alignment relationships concerning secularism & sodomy

[StSinner]

In his video on the Resurrection, Rob Bell cites the Gospel of John. This video absolutely nails the Resurrection. I'm not a Christian apologist by any means but the off the cuff disrespectful remarks are more telling of the person spitting the venom than the target of such disingenuous and belligerent remarks.

I don't have the most positive opinion about New Age or Mystic religions such as Gnosticism. I will not include Jewish Kabbalah and Islamic Sufi in this because they have a more solid and theological base than Christian Gnosticism. I have no interest in tarot cards, mediums, magic crystals and amulets or anything of the sort. If you want to know about angels then study the various religions and their interpretations of such beings.

If you'd like to watch the video...go to YouTube and search Rob Bell Resurrection.

[ludolfo]

just watched it.
You should have an interest in it --Tarot cards etc, because the powers that be that are in-theface are into all that, and it is important to know your enemy. By saying this I am not meaning that Tarot cards are evil, but that there is a very evil occult elite at the helm.
I also fear the Christian myth because they seem to welcome world catastrophe as meaning that everything will then be 'resurrected'!