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  1. #101
    Coward92
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by zoltanspawn View Post
    "No dude. You shouldn't kill that bot-fly. Like, in a million years it might evolve into a beneficial symbiont. It has a right to life. That's why I'm against abortion."
    I am against abortion because it is a waste of potential.
    Your above sentence is a result of derailing the topic in which I am at fault.

  2. #102
    JohannBessler
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    ^You're a beautiful person.

    I just don't agree with you on abortion.

  3. #103
    Coward92
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Around half of pregnancies result in "Huh…I was starting to wonder when my period would come…I was going to buy a pregnancy test if it wasn't here by the weekend…but here we go!" People don't grieve for them because they either aren't aware of them, or because they recognise that a few cells later, it wasn't meant to be.

    I have great compassion for people who want a pregnancy, choose it, and then feel the loss when it ends. People actually grieve for their failed pregnancies; true. But they can also grieve for continuing pregnancies they have no way to prepare for. Where's your compassion for them?
    If they feel terrible about the fact that they have to give birth, than they should give birth and give the child away.
    This is my opinion. I may feel sorry for them, because obviously, if they didn't want a child, yet they got pregnant, they either made a mistake, got raped or were irresponsible.
    In case of rape, I painfully agree with abortion, but not wholeheartedly.
    In the other 2 cases, I can't say the same. Give the child away and move on with your life.

  4. #104
    Coward92
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by JohannBessler View Post
    ^You're a beautiful person.

    I just don't agree with you on abortion.
    We may have to agree to disagree.
    I will never possess the power to shape the world the way I want, but if I could I would create an institution that gives special attention to children without parents, with good mental and healthcare and good educational system.
    Maybe if this could be done more people would give birth and give the child away if they truly don't want it.

  5. #105
    Coward92
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by pat grimshaw View Post
    Don't apologise. People who are too arrogant and happy to insult others are not worthy of your apologies.
    We must treat them as humans, so that we show them that we don't hate them, but only find their ideas or opinions unppealing, not their very persons.

  6. #106
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    You are now suggesting a population expansion as the key to the advancement of humanity. In the last 40 years, China has stabilised its population and begun to move beyond the misery of peasantry. India has done nothing and lags pitifully behind. Making more starving desperate mouths to feed does not increase human dignity, social stability or personal joy.

    Quite the opposite: it is only by ensuring fewer people are born with a chance to lead a prosperous life that society has advanced. Your natalist policies are inexplicable and indefensible.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  7. #107
    Coward92
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    You are now suggesting a population expansion as the key to the advancement of humanity. In the last 40 years, China has stabilised its population and begun to move beyond the misery of peasantry. India has done nothing and lags pitifully behind. Making more starving desperate mouths to feed does not increase human dignity, social stability or personal joy.

    Quite the opposite: it is only by ensuring fewer people are born with a chance to lead a prosperous life that society has advanced. Your natalist policies are inexplicable and indefensible.
    That is not true. The advancement of humanity depends on the few exceptional individuals who take action and show a new way to follow.
    We may have already destroyed dozens of them by now.

    I never said: "Breed irrespponsibly."
    I said: "If you screwed up, take responsibility, and pay the price from your own purse."

  8. #108
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    You said the presence of those few exceptional individuals is a function of the quantity of individuals born.

    Or do you think people abort only geniuses?
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  9. #109
    Coward92
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    You said the presence of those few exceptional individuals is a function of the quantity of individuals born.

    Or do you think people abort only geniuses?
    Neither.
    I said we have taken away the chance of them growing into great and wonderful individuals.
    It is a waste.

  10. #110
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by eastofeden View Post
    Do you think you have some kind of answer to everyone else's psychological problems because "you" overcame your circumstances....therefore everyone can? Newsflash...people are all different. Does your ego not understand that?
    I know somebody who is a diehard Libertarian, so diehard that he feels that government CANNOT EVER, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, DO ANYTHING GOOD FOR ANYBODY - and the "commons" is built entirely on theft, corporations and rich people who treasonously cheat the United States out of tax obligations by stashing money overseas secretly are his heroes, etc.

    He also repeatedly cites Stephen Hawking, and that guy without legs who performs and can do athletics (can't remember his name, he's all over YouTube), as examples of people who overcame severe adversities. These are about the only people he EVER cites. That means one person for each 3.5 billion people on this planet. Because of this, that is sufficient proof to him that, under absolutely ALL circumstances, everybody in the history of the world will ALWAYS be able to overcome all of their handicaps and problems, no matter how profound, and certainly WITHOUT any help of any kind from the government. (Where would they be without the American Disabilities Act??)\

    God, what utter rubbish.

    I personally know a number of people who WOULD ALMOST CERTAINLY BE DEAD NOW if not for government programs of some kind.

    **************
    The same thing happens with pregnancies. There are a LOT of parents who shouldn't (for various circumstances) be raising children, let alone those mothers who have extreme health issues, or children who will be born with major handicaps or conditions which will promise to take a horrific toll on the assets of an entire family (even the well-insured rich family with the winter home in Palm Beach).

    Quote Originally Posted by eastofeden View Post
    Being a good friend means allowing people to be who they are...not acting like some fucking Christian Camp Counselor.
    ^^THIS^^ (which goes not only for abortion, of course, but for those who would disparage us for being gay or wanting to marry into our own gender. And many other unrelated things as well.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Coward92 View Post
    So if some terrorists, say decide to drive an aeroplane right into a twin tower it is none of our bussiness, because I can never comprehend what it feels like?

    Please don't come up with the "this is beyond your comprehension" argument.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Your comparison is dumb btw
    This is a faulty argument. None of us guys will ever, for any reason, have a "first person" encounter with aborting out own fetus/baby (call it what you will) - it will always be "her."

    However, and though it is highly unlikely, the "airplanes flying into towers" scenario (or a mass bombing, or somebody spraying bullets all over a school or movie theater) is something **THAT COULD** affect any of us if we're in the wrong place at the wrong time. You could be at the Sturgis Bike Rally, or Burning Man, or the Texas State Fair on a Saturday afternoon, or the Michigan at Ohio State football game, and a plane could fly over and release anthrax. There is a very real statistical chance that sometime in your lifetime you may be seriously injured in a traffic accident. ALL of this can happen to any of us guys who will never have a reason to seek a medical abortion.
    "All legal U. S. residents who are 18 years or older, shall have an unconditional right to vote." - We need a 28th Amendment to the U. S. Constitution which resembles this...NOW!

    VOTING: Just remember: "Be careful of what you DON'T wish for. You might just get it." GET OUT AND VOTE for what you DO wish for.

    "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires" - Susan B. Anthony

  11. #111
    Coward92
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    ^
    It is still a waste and it is still a choice with severe consequences that a lot of people are not willing to face. They want to feel comfortable about it. I think they shouldn't.

    We will never have a first person encounter, yes, yet as I have said before, abortion and the frequency it is applied affects our cultural growth, placing personal needs and comfort above human life and hope.

    So if those people would be dead without the government they shouldn't be even given a chance for life? Make no mistake, those who want to live, will live, and they will set an example. You have no right to decide who to take the chance of life away from. Those who choose apathy over action and comfort instead of fighting kill themselves without assistance anyways.

    One person from 3.5 billion people became successful? I'd rather say 1 person got noticed. Also, anyone can turn his life around at any moment while he draws breath. Of course you can come up with excuses, but people who act happen to produce results. Also, we don't only abort fetuses which have disabilites.
    Last edited by Coward92; March 30th, 2013 at 08:56 AM.

  12. #112
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by Coward92 View Post
    Neither.
    I said we have taken away the chance of them growing into great and wonderful individuals.
    It is a waste.
    Your argument has lost internal coherence.

    You can't be in favour of modest or limited population growth, and yet plead for aborted babies to have been born lest we lose out on their potential genius.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  13. #113
    Coward92
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Your argument has lost internal coherence.

    You can't be in favour of modest or limited population growth, and yet plead for aborted babies to have been born lest we lose out on their potential genius.
    Internal coherence is in effect. Even if it wasn't you didn't give me arguments on why NOT is abortion a waste, indignity, or immoral act.
    I am not in favour of modest or limited population growth.
    But even if I were, I could plead for them. They are not at fault for being created, their irresponsible parents were. They should not pay the price for something they didn't commit and to destroy them for comfort is wrong. There are other ways to resolve the problem. To destroy an embryo solves a short range problem, while giving birth to it and giving it away for adoptation is a long term solution that may benefit many people. It is of course harder to do than simply destroying it, but the right choice is usually not the easy one.
    Last edited by Coward92; March 30th, 2013 at 09:31 AM.

  14. #114
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by Coward92 View Post
    I don't believe in "soul" as the essence of a person.
    I believe we create our own souls.
    As rhythm is the soul of dance, it is action that is the soul of man.

    My arguments are based on the fact that the embyro, fetus, zygote (whatever) has a unique chance of taking part in our existance and contribute to our world. This chance is destroyed upon abortion. Imagine how much potential was eliminated. Even if 2% of those humans were talented, they would have changed our world in ways we can't imagine.

    I also believe I have given you an aswer why women are mostly pro-choice. Please check again. If I didn't send you that message by mistake, I am ready to correct it.
    I am not being a jerk, I really didn't see any response to that question.

    Your stance unfortunately also addresses masturbation, gay sex and pretty much every form of contraceptive sex. So basically the Catholic stance. Every one of those sperms has the unique chance of taking part in our existence and contribute to our world.

    Because if you don't believe in a soul, then what is aborted is NOT human, whether it has the chance to become one or not.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  15. #115
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by Coward92 View Post
    Internal coherence is in effect. Even if it wasn't you didn't give me arguments on why NOT is abortion a waste, indignity, or immoral act.
    I am not in favour of modest or limited population growth.
    But even if I were, I could plead for them. They are not at fault for being created, their irresponsible parents were. They should not pay the price for something they didn't commit and to destroy them for comfort is wrong. There are other ways to resolve the problem. To destroy an embryo solves a short range problem, while giving birth to it and giving it away for adoptation is a long term solution that may benefit many people. It is of course harder to do than simply destroying it, but the right choice is usually not the easy one.
    They are not at fault because "they" do not exist as conscious beings. The apparatus with which to be at fault is not present.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  16. #116
    JohannBessler
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by frankfrank View Post
    I know somebody who is a diehard Libertarian, so diehard that he feels that government CANNOT EVER, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, DO ANYTHING GOOD FOR ANYBODY - and the "commons" is built entirely on theft, corporations and rich people who treasonously cheat the United States out of tax obligations by stashing money overseas secretly are his heroes, etc.

    .
    Mention for-profit colleges.

    So far, not one single one of them has an unblemished record.

    This is a case in which gevernment really does do it better.

  17. #117
    Quality posting since 2K7 Nishin's Avatar
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by Coward92 View Post
    I am against abortion because it is a waste of potential.
    Your above sentence is a result of derailing the topic in which I am at fault.
    Last week in my home-town, a baby corpse was found in a flower tub.
    The following day in the news 2 baby corpses found in a freezer
    etc
    I wish their parents had the decency to terminate these potential actual disasters when they were not even humans yet.

  18. #118
    Coward92
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by Nishin View Post
    Last week in my home-town, a baby corpse was found in a flower tub.
    The following day in the news 2 baby corpses found in a freezer
    etc
    I wish their parents had the decency to terminate these potential actual disasters when they were not even humans yet.
    And I wish they used condoms or pills.

  19. #119
    Coward92
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    I am not being a jerk, I really didn't see any response to that question.

    Your stance unfortunately also addresses masturbation, gay sex and pretty much every form of contraceptive sex. So basically the Catholic stance. Every one of those sperms has the unique chance of taking part in our existence and contribute to our world.

    Because if you don't believe in a soul, then what is aborted is NOT human, whether it has the chance to become one or not.
    It has undeniable human qualities. The only thing required to be a human is human genetic material. All fetuses/embryos have that.
    A seed is not a tree yet, and it isn't even alive, but at the moment it takes root, it is alive.

    We could discuss whether it is alive from the moment it sticks to the uterus, or from the moment the 2 cells fuse into one.
    I think if it connects to the mother's womb, it takes root, and from that moment forward it is pointless to deny that it is a living human organism, which shows all signs of life and is going through a developmental process.

    My stance only protects the unique genetic material that is being created by the fusion of the sperm and the egg. As long as they are separate, I don't give a damn. However, once they are fused something unique comes to be. It is practically impossible to recreate it, and even if we succeeded to do so it wouldn't ever develop the same way, due to the unique hormonal circumstances it would be exposed to.

    A soul is being created by a person's activity over its lifetime. Positive and negative feedback related to certain experiences shapes the personality and thus over time creates the defining behavioural pattern that is unique to that given person.

    I understand you were not a jerk, I just took into account that my message might have been lost.
    In case you found it I'm happy I don't have to type it again.
    Last edited by Coward92; March 30th, 2013 at 01:08 PM.

  20. #120
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Nope, I didn't. Sorry.

    And your logic is inconsistent. You have just set an arbitrary starting moment for your "caring" that has no logical reasoning behind it. Everything is "life". The embryo, the sperm, even a tumor (and I know how much you anti-choice folks hate that metaphor, so notice I am not making it).

    Basically, you are using Catholic reasoning, Catholic frame and everything else Catholic, yet you deny that your stance is religious. I am sorry, but considering your background, it is just not credible and perhaps you need to do some reflection. I mean, it's not a crime if your stance is religious, I wouldn't disagree with it any more than I do now - but be honest about it.

    And I don't believe that anyone outside of a small dumb minority actually feels "good" about abortion, regardless of which side they support. But I disagree with your - again totally religious - view that we should somehow "shame" them and make them "rue" their choice if they make it, as you have suggested in this topic.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  21. #121
    Quality posting since 2K7 Nishin's Avatar
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by Coward92 View Post
    It is not about me making a decision. And I certainly not making decisons for all of you. As I said before, you do whatever you want, and you should always be free to do so, but face the consequences. Face the weight of what you are doing. Those who turn a blind eye to the whole picture are destructive. Plain and simple.
    This whole shit-throwing contest between pro-life and pro-choice people is about judgement, shame, and guilt. It's not about the embryos. It's about making abortus sound better, becuase if everyone thinks it's okay than people can feel better about themselves after doing it.
    Only because millions tell you that 1+1=3 it won't be true. No matter how loud you yell that the Earth is flat, it isn't. No matter how much you would like to say that the embryo is not alive and it is not human, it is.

    Science has a definition of life.
    Now, you can strip the fetus of it's human qualities to make yourselves feel better about destroying it, but I don't approve of it, and what I said is true. It is a waste. You can argue that it isn't but I didn't see any arguments that would be based on selfless facts. Every argument I heard pro-abortion was about the comfort of a single individual. They also tried to appear as scientifically valid, while the truth is that science doesn't support their claims at all. And yes, I study biology.

    I also find it laughable that as long as science claims things you love to hear, it is sacred and invulnerable, but at the moment you doesn't like what you see/hear you try to invalidate it by saying it is bullshit, without proper arguments.

    It's not about religion at all.
    There is morality outside of the chruch, and if you love human rights, and i bet you do, than you can't just turn a blind eye over this waste.
    If abortion were only a tool to abort pregnancies resulted from rape, or it would be used only if medical reasons make it neccessary than I wouldn't have a word, but only about 10% of abortions are performed for those purposes.
    All the rest is about people being irresponsible, selfish and comfortable humans. Making anything/anyone else pay for your faults is wrong.

    And I still say: If you really want an abortion, go ahead, do it. But face it. Face that you are trading a life for your own comfort.
    Fixed for you



    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    You are now suggesting a population expansion as the key to the advancement of humanity. In the last 40 years, China has stabilised its population and begun to move beyond the misery of peasantry. India has done nothing and lags pitifully behind. Making more starving desperate mouths to feed does not increase human dignity, social stability or personal joy.

    Quite the opposite: it is only by ensuring fewer people are born with a chance to lead a prosperous life that society has advanced. Your natalist policies are inexplicable and indefensible
    .
    I was going to mention this... Science keeps being mentioned in this thread to justify religious view points, but what does Science actually say about human populations and resources? I'll take a wild guess and state that an objective scientific management of our specie, devoid of ethics or religious considerations, would rather be in favour of abortion, and may promote birth control on a large scale. Am I wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coward92 View Post
    ^
    It is still a waste and it is still a choice with severe consequences that a lot of people are not willing to face. They want to feel comfortable about it. I think they shouldn't.

    We will never have a first person encounter, yes, yet as I have said before, abortion and the frequency it is applied affects our cultural growth, placing personal needs and comfort above human life and hope.
    Although human life is actually about meeting personal needs and comfort... is that not what every one person on this planet aims for?
    Isn't our collective cultural growth the sum of achievements in meeting individuals' needs and comfort?
    And lastly, what is so precious and sacred about humans?
    We're just tiny creatures temporary occupying a random levitating rock somewhere in the universe... we need a little bit of humility here

  22. #122
    Coward92
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by Nishin View Post
    I was going to mention this... Science keeps being mentioned in this thread to justify religious view points, but what does Science actually say about human populations and resources? I'll take a wild guess and state that an objective scientific management of our specie, devoid of ethics or religious considerations, would rather be in favour of abortion, and may promote birth control on a large scale. Am I wrong?

    Yes, you are. Abortion indeed fits birth control. Being devoid of ethics is something that I reserve to animals. I am a human. Also, if you refer to the overpopulation myth, I have to say: It is a myth. Also, I don't see how in America's resources are a problem? The vast amount of abortions is done in the USA, where the resources are not scarce and those children could be raised well. In India, there is real overpopulation. The answer is condoms+pills, not abortion. That would be responsible behaviour.

    Although human life is actually about meeting personal needs and comfort... is that not what every one person on this planet aims for?
    No. Some of us try to achieve a deeper understanding of reality, some of us are trying to make the world a better place for others, and some of us are also trying to create something that will outlive us and elevate our quality of life. There is nothing wrong with seeking comfort as long as YOU alone pay the price for it.

    Isn't our collective cultural growth the sum of achievements in meeting individuals' needs and comfort? "It is true, but not at any cost. There are ways to avoid situations where the possibility of abortion may even arise."
    And lastly, what is so precious and sacred about humans?

    It is our race. We are beautiful, wonderful, sentient beings, capable of shaping this world by reflecting to reality with an understanding of its mechanics. We are also capable of making distinction between beautiful and ugly, right and wrong, chaos and order, good and evil. We are torn between our minds and our hearts, we are stranded between our animalistic selfisness and our human selflessness, which actually makes us human from a behavioural point of view. Life should be a central value of humanity, because it is strongly limited in time and impossible to recreate.

    We're just tiny creatures temporary occupying a random levitating rock somewhere in the universe... we need a little bit of humility here.
    You need humility when you decide what is allowed to flourish and what is not. Who is allowed to become a living human and who is not. Not your right to decide.
    Related to the part that you "fixed" for me.
    Being selfish and comfortable is the worse side of our nature, especially when we sacrifice others to keep it fed.

  23. #123
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Coward, you seem to think something magical happens when a sperm enters an ovum. That just makes no sense. The moral difference between a sperm and an ovum that fuse, and a sperm and ovum kept apart by a condom, is NIL.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  24. #124
    Coward92
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Nope, I didn't. Sorry.

    And your logic is inconsistent. You have just set an arbitrary starting moment for your "caring" that has no logical reasoning behind it. Everything is "life". The embryo, the sperm, even a tumor (and I know how much you anti-choice folks hate that metaphor, so notice I am not making it).

    Basically, you are using Catholic reasoning, Catholic frame and everything else Catholic, yet you deny that your stance is religious. I am sorry, but considering your background, it is just not credible and perhaps you need to do some reflection. I mean, it's not a crime if your stance is religious, I wouldn't disagree with it any more than I do now - but be honest about it.

    And I don't believe that anyone outside of a small dumb minority actually feels "good" about abortion, regardless of which side they support. But I disagree with your - again totally religious - view that we should somehow "shame" them and make them "rue" their choice if they make it, as you have suggested in this topic.
    No logic behind it?
    Please...
    That is insulting beyond measure.

    Life is defined by science. I have defined everything here by scientific facts. The tumor is not alive according to the criteria of biology. I know you would love it to be alive but it isn't, sorry. It is uncapable of reproduction, and it can't develop.
    Theese are 2 (of the 5) essential things that a living organism must be capable of according to the definition of individual life.

    I am using my own reasoning. You want to brand me as Catholic to make me look stupid.
    My stance is not religious, it is human. If you believe that in order to follow ethics and morals you must be religious, than please open your eyes.
    It boils my blood that I must keep proving that no, I am not saying all this because I am religious. I say this because this is what I think. I guess you wouldn't even give a Nobel-prize to a renowned scientist if he was religious? Especially Catholic?
    There are Catholics who actually support abortion. Whoa.

    And why should we shame them exactly? You are quick to judge and wilfully interpret what I said in the wrong way.

    I said: Make them face what they do. Yes, make them feel bad about it. Maybe they will learn that next time a condom can save them the trouble. Maybe the pills too. And yes, this is a terrible thing and they should feel bad about it. Not because I want them to suffer, but because I want them never to do it. Especially not repeatedly.

    I didn't say: Let's bring them to a public pedestal and throw them with rotting vegetables and set them as examples of the most disgusting thing that a human can grow into.

  25. #125
    Coward92
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Coward, you seem to think something magical happens when a sperm enters an ovum. That just makes no sense. The moral difference between a sperm and an ovum that fuse, and a sperm and ovum kept apart by a condom, is NIL.
    Bullshit.
    Separate cells: Chromosomes without connection, uncapable of supporting human metabolism.
    Fused cells: Chromosomes connected, unique genetic material created, capable of replicating and multiplying itself, capable of development in both quality and quantity.

    This is not NIL.

  26. #126
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    My answer related to women being pro-choice can be read at the second page of this thread.

    If you scroll from bottom to top it is the 4th message that I sent.

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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    I can't help but feel, Coward, that abortion for you is a case of a moral wrong in search of arguments to prove it wrong.

    Hence, abortion is wrong because:

    --it destroys life
    or
    --it destroys a unique thing
    or
    --it is a waste of potential
    or
    --it destroys a human

    While I don't doubt you may think all these things, I would find your position more compelling if there were a more singular, well-thought out principle which supported your belief, and perhaps encapsulated these differing ideas. Hopefully this discussion has helped you hone your thinking in that direction.

    I didn't respond earlier to your request for arguments which didn't pertain to the comfort of an individual because our discussion had suffered from misreading. In this thread beginning with post 42, I presented such an argument to you which made the case that we ought to practice lots of abortion as a means of curtailing human overpopulation which is causing a mass extinction of species.
    pro bonobo

  28. #128
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by zoltanspawn View Post
    I can't help but feel, Coward, that abortion for you is a case of a moral wrong in search of arguments to prove it wrong.

    Hence, abortion is wrong because:

    --it destroys life
    or
    --it destroys a unique thing
    or
    --it is a waste of potential
    or
    --it destroys a human

    While I don't doubt you may think all these things, I would find your position more compelling if there were a more singular, well-thought out principle which supported your belief, and perhaps encapsulated these differing ideas. Hopefully this discussion has helped you hone your thinking in that direction.

    I didn't respond earlier to your request for arguments which didn't pertain to the comfort of an individual because our discussion had suffered from misreading. In this thread beginning with post 42, I presented such an argument to you which made the case that we ought to practice lots of abortion as a means of curtailing human overpopulation which is causing a mass extinction of species.
    Practicing lots of abortions is inhuman and cruel. If you want to save the planet and wildlife, practice discipline!
    Use condoms and pills to control.

    Abortion IS wrong for all above mentioned reasons. I don't believe I have to choose one of those reasons as my main focus point. The more numerous the reasons against abortion the more obvious it is that we shouldn't practice it without proper justification.

    There is no global human overpopulation. It is a myth created by a certain group to cause the extinction of European nations. Appears to have worked. Our people are dying and our societies consist of old people. The nations on the other hand who flourished (turkish, chinese) only have to come here with their armies and give us an evil glance and we're fucked.
    Last edited by Coward92; March 30th, 2013 at 04:45 PM.

  29. #129
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    I was going to mention this... Science keeps being mentioned in this thread to justify religious view points, but what does Science actually say about human populations and resources? I'll take a wild guess and state that an objective scientific management of our specie, devoid of ethics or religious considerations, would rather be in favour of abortion, and may promote birth control on a large scale. Am I wrong?

    Yes, you are. Abortion indeed fits birth control. Being devoid of ethics is something that I reserve to animals. I am a human. Also, if you refer to the overpopulation myth, I have to say: It is a myth. Also, I don't see how in America's resources are a problem? The vast amount of abortions is done in the USA, where the resources are not scarce and those children could be raised well. In India, there is real overpopulation. The answer is condoms+pills, not abortion. That would be responsible behaviour.
    Not sure how your reply makes mine wrong... I mentioned an objective scientific management of our specie... didn't say we were currently run by it.

    I am indeed referring to overpopulation vs. available resources and their renewability. Please don't state your opinion that it is a myth as if it was actually a fact.
    I also think it is wrong to set geographical boundaries for overpopulation discarding the fact that the first world uses most of the whole planet's resources.
    That means the impact of a single life is more significant in the first world than it is in another place, which would actually support making birth control more important in the first world.

    Condoms, pills and family planning, I'm all for it... but they need to be allowed, you are aware that religious influence works against that common sense in the name of what you've been defending here? And within the first world, it especially happens in the US, as demonstrated in the OP, where many teenagers are not educated about sex and contraception because some relifundies right wingers want sex-ed out of schools and then refuse for their tax-money to take care of unwanted born babies they indirectly share a responsibility in bringing into this world.

    Humans are animals, you need to accept this if you want to pretend your thoughts on the subject are based on science instead of religion, which you keep doing posts after posts.

    Although human life is actually about meeting personal needs and comfort... is that not what every one person on this planet aims for?
    No. Some of us try to achieve a deeper understanding of reality, some of us are trying to make the world a better place for others, and some of us are also trying to create something that will outlive us and elevate our quality of life. There is nothing wrong with seeking comfort as long as YOU alone pay the price for it.
    Really? Please introduce me to ONE person like you described.
    These is ALWAYS a personal motivation in anyone's behaviour... that it sometimes is collaterally beneficial to others doesn't invalidate the former.

    Isn't our collective cultural growth the sum of achievements in meeting individuals' needs and comfort?
    "It is true, but not at any cost. There are ways to avoid situations where the possibility of abortion may even arise."
    Then instead of fighting abortion, why not promote sex-ed and these other ways you mention? When these are in place there should not be much undesired pregnancies left to occur and consider abortions for...?

    And lastly, what is so precious and sacred about humans?
    It is our race. We are beautiful, wonderful, sentient beings, capable of shaping this world by reflecting to reality with an understanding of its mechanics. We are also capable of making distinction between beautiful and ugly, right and wrong, chaos and order, good and evil. We are torn between our minds and our hearts, we are stranded between our animalistic selfisness and our human selflessness, which actually makes us human from a behavioural point of view. Life should be a central value of humanity, because it is strongly limited in time and impossible to recreate.
    Beautiful and ugly? right or wrong?? Good and evil???
    All these are man-made cultural conventions, they do not exist in nature which has no care for such considerations.
    None of these justify Humanity's supposed preciousness and sacredness in scientific terms, it would do in religious terms though, once again.
    Preciousness is defined by rarity (which we are not), and sacredness... well it's equally and semantically out of Human's reach (vs.divinity).
    That's where your cultural environment & upbringing shows.
    (Individual) Human life's preciousness is merely another human convention, while Europe, influenced by religion, values it highly, other cultures around the world favour numbers rather than individual life.


    We're just tiny creatures temporary occupying a random levitating rock somewhere in the universe... we need a little bit of humility here.
    You need humility when you decide what is allowed to flourish and what is not. Who is allowed to become a living human and who is not. Not your right to decide.

    I believe it IS a woman's right to decide. It is HER body and life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coward92 View Post
    Related to the part that you "fixed" for me.
    Being selfish and comfortable is the worse side of our nature, especially when we sacrifice others to keep it fed.
    I agree, yet that's the reality of who we are, let's deal and work with it.
    Last edited by Nishin; March 30th, 2013 at 04:55 PM.

  30. #130
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by Coward92 View Post
    There is no global human overpopulation.
    In the sense that I referred to in the linked thread, and now refer to here, there objectively is an overpopulation of humans: our excessive number is the cause of a mass extinction of species.

    We have traded away the black rhinoceros, the Baiji dolphin and the Pyrenean Ibex due to the effects of overpopulation. Thousands upon thousands of more species are threatened by our unbridled reproduction.

    We ought to abort the production of people when we can, as a show of respect that other species deserve to live, at all.

    We are wasting other species' lives, their uniqueness, their own identities as a species, and their own living nature to further our own. It cannot be a morally superior path to continue this wanton extinction than to simply destroy a large quantity of mindless zygotes of the species that is effectively a plague to all others.
    pro bonobo

  31. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by zoltanspawn View Post

    In the sense that I referred to in the linked thread, and now refer to here, there objectively is an overpopulation of humans: our excessive number is the cause of a mass extinction of species.

    We have traded away the black rhinoceros, the Baiji dolphin and the Pyrenean Ibex due to the effects of overpopulation. Thousands upon thousands of more species are threatened by our unbridled reproduction.

    We ought to abort the production of people when we can, as a show of respect that other species deserve to live, at all.

    We are wasting other species' lives, their uniqueness, their own identities as a species, and their own living nature to further our own. It cannot be a morally superior path to continue this wanton extinction than to simply destroy a large quantity of mindless zygotes of the species that is effectively a plague to all others.
    So true. Talking about preciousness and morality while violating nature in this abusive manner is not very... Precious.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  32. #132
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by Coward92 View Post
    Women are overwhelmingly pro choice, because it is their ass on the line. It is their comfort and "rights" that need protecting.
    I dunno why I missed it.

    Anyway, if those that abortion affects personally, are overwhelmingly PRO the option to have it available to them, that should send one of two clear messages:

    1. Those whom this issue impacts directly, know better than you and since, as you put it, "it's their ass on the line", we should defer to their judgment.

    2. Women don't know better, they're too dumb to grasp the morality of the abortion issue, so we should decide for them, and maybe slut-shame them in the process.

    Which one is it?
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  33. #133
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by Coward92 View Post
    ^
    It is still a waste and it is still a choice with severe consequences that a lot of people are not willing to face. They want to feel comfortable about it. I think they shouldn't.

    We will never have a first person encounter, yes, yet as I have said before, abortion and the frequency it is applied affects our cultural growth, placing personal needs and comfort above human life and hope.

    So if those people would be dead without the government
    they shouldn't be even given a chance for life? Make no mistake, those who want to live, will live, and they will set an example. You have no right to decide who to take the chance of life away from. Those who choose apathy over action and comfort instead of fighting kill themselves without assistance anyways.

    One person from 3.5 billion people became successful? I'd rather say 1 person got noticed. Also, anyone can turn his life around at any moment while he draws breath. Of course you can come up with excuses, but people who act happen to produce results. Also, we don't only abort fetuses which have disabilites.
    Yes, those people should be given a chance for life. But the chance for life shouldn't exist ONLY during the pregnancy, then be removed (you're ON YOUR OWN) as soon as the child is born, with no government ANYTHING to help under any circumstances. That's what the guy I mention, wants.

    A lot of what you say, I disagree with, nevertheless I thank you (in a friendly way) for sharing your thought-out viewpoints. The red parts above, actually, were made with no relation or relevance to the abortion issue which is indeed the topic of this thread, but a side issue in my post that connected to it in some ways. Those red parts, were instead my description of my friend's faulty "government CANNOT EVER, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, DO ANYTHING GOOD FOR ANYBODY" logic, where he is thoroughly content for the maladjusted and malprepared to just die and get out of his way because they shouldn't be STEALING government money using Head Start, food stamps, etc. He has told me (in one of our most recent conversations about a year ago) that the Federal government should repeal the federal law which requires hospital to offer emergency care to the indigent. (Yes, just LET THEM DIE.)

    Not everybody can turn their own lives around on a whim. Somebody who has never had a positive real-life role model (while living with one or two dysfunctional parents...or some foster care which can be even worse) can easily lack the inspiration to pull out of the gradual downward spiral.

    So often I get the feeling that the prevailing Republican mantra, in the high power infrastructure of the GOP (and especially in some individual states), is "G.....mit!!! You *ARE* going to have THAT baby from your rape. Oh, and when it's BORN, you and the baby are on your own, you assholes!"

    Coward, it is refreshing to note that I believe you realize that quandary. Having things such as health and mental care readily available for these children makes an entire nation and planet healthier and more civilized, and I think you said that in one of your posts somewhere. (This has become a really huge thread, well more than I ever thought it would.) I feel that if all births are mandatory somewhere, whether by law or by design, whoever is mandating that (i.e. the individual U. S. state) should also provide for guarantees and grants assuring that every birthed child is given at least a reasonable chance at a normal life. Nowaday-GOP-elites want no guarantees at all. If they could remove the regulations on food that they wish, for example, Nestle could again build huge plants to spew out pure sugar water, labeling the product as baby formula, as they were doing in Africa in the 1970's until they got busted for it. (Consequences? I think not much...just the loss of a few markets and a promise to "shape up"...)

    That one-in-three-and-a-half-billion thing was alluding to my illogical friend basically saying over and over again that if THESE TWO PEOPLE "made it," it means that everybody can overcome every adversity and handicap, bad turns of events, NO MATTER WHAT, and there should never, ever be even ONE CENT of help from ANY government agency of any kind (not even locally), and if it means somebody died from neglect, they didn't try hard enough. To me, this line of thought is SO toxic.

    I was VERY close to being in love with this guy 7 1/2 years ago, but his politics have gone SO coo-coo batshit-over-the-chasm crazy since his HATED Obama got in, that he would probably accuse Jack Springer of being way too progressive. He feels that Franklin Roosevelt is the worst leader that the United States has ever had - in his case I think he even puts FDR below Stalin. And in his mind, Social Security is the second worst scam that has ever been perpetrated anywhere in the world. Yes, one of the most successful assurances for the elderly, ever. (The Federal Reserve, in his mind, is the worst scam ever...and I am inclined to agree.)

    Anyway Coward, we disagree, but you're OK by me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coward92 View Post
    My answer related to women being pro-choice can be read at the second page of this thread.

    If you scroll from bottom to top it is the 4th message that I sent.
    Wouldn't it be easier to give a message #? (Such as Rolyo85's "Which one is it?" responding to your answer about pro-choice women - his post is #132.) You can even link to your own indicated post by right-clicking on its post number, and using the option to copy the URL into your new post. Pages don't even have a consistent definition because the default is 50 per page but I'm using 20 posts per page.

    Quote Originally Posted by zoltanspawn View Post
    In the sense that I referred to in the linked thread, and now refer to here, there objectively is an overpopulation of humans: our excessive number is the cause of a mass extinction of species.

    We have traded away the black rhinoceros, the Baiji dolphin and the Pyrenean Ibex due to the effects of overpopulation. Thousands upon thousands of more species are threatened by our unbridled reproduction.

    We ought to abort the production of people when we can, as a show of respect that other species deserve to live, at all.

    We are wasting other species' lives, their uniqueness, their own identities as a species, and their own living nature to further our own. It cannot be a morally superior path to continue this wanton extinction than to simply destroy a large quantity of mindless zygotes of the species that is effectively a plague to all others.
    Of course those are high-profile animals, not counting the thousands of other fauna and flora species that are being extincted by human action. Of course, in some rare cases, some truly harmful species have been entirely eradicated by deliberate human action (rather than indirectly as a result of human action, as is most often true). How many truly unwanted species have been deliberately wiped out by humans, to the great benefit of all? Are there even enough of those to use all your fingers counting up? I can ONLY think of smallpox, and I can't think of even one more, though I'm sure there are others.

    However, I don't like the idea at all of wanton, rampant abortions either, as you imply. Wouldn't it be a lot better if there was a global policy to teach about the consequences of overpopulation, and instill the ideas well enough that there is a global motivation to halt (via birth control and contraception, etc.) population growth and perhaps even slowly reverse it? All it matters is that this would "catch on" globally - each country would have its own intricacies and relevant ways to approach these ideas, and there is no need for the policies to be harmful to any humans, while involving individual conscious choices. And NO not an abstinence-only thing, but abstinence wouldn't be ignored either. (This world is so sexualized that I sincerely think MANY people go all the way through youth without the concept of abstinence ever even OCCURRING to them, unless it is actually mentioned.) WHO was it who said something like "Abortion should be accessible, affordable, and RARE"?? There are so many dissonant culture clashes going on. Most modern societies are set up in ways which end up creating circumstances which encourage more abortions, as too many of the religions encourage their women to spew out as many babies as they possibly can. (Hey, if a religion convinced families not to give birth, that religion would probably die out in a few generations, wouldn't it?) If ideas abounded enough to discourage the creation of unwanted pregnancies, abortion would indeed become rare.

    For example, schools should intensively teach (probably at least three classes per week, for at least three years) all about how families and parents function, what it costs to raise children, what kinds of responsibilities it brings, some child psychology, what kinds of things children tend to like to do, raising a child can be frustrating, etc. My hunch is that it would be a rude awakening to some kids who thought you just have the baby and all is well, but that rude awakening is done well before the child would have been conceived, and possibly been harmed in life by parents who may otherwise have been clueless.

    I put all this down nearly as a flow of consciousness. I get a little bit of a buzz (from a small toke at a party three hours ago), and my real thoughts come out. Actually not unlike my ordinary day to day thoughts, LOL - but they come out way too fast to write down...
    "All legal U. S. residents who are 18 years or older, shall have an unconditional right to vote." - We need a 28th Amendment to the U. S. Constitution which resembles this...NOW!

    VOTING: Just remember: "Be careful of what you DON'T wish for. You might just get it." GET OUT AND VOTE for what you DO wish for.

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  34. #134
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by frankfrank View Post
    However, I don't like the idea at all of wanton, rampant abortions either, as you imply.
    I regard early term abortion as almost totally harmless. In the context of overpopulation, abortion is a virtue, an act of caring.

    So, I wouldn't think of lots of abortions as being wanton and rampant, just like I don't think of lots of immunizations as wanton and rampant.

    Lots of abortions signifies we care about the health of people, society and other species.

    Birth control and education are great, too.
    pro bonobo

  35. #135
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by Coward92 View Post
    Bullshit.
    Separate cells: Chromosomes without connection, uncapable of supporting human metabolism.
    Fused cells: Chromosomes connected, unique genetic material created, capable of replicating and multiplying itself, capable of development in both quality and quantity.

    This is not NIL.
    No, you're back to magic. The chromosomes inside the separate sperm and egg are doing nothing but trying to meet; they are already engaged in the act of developing. That they unite is not the magical moment you think it is; it is merely the next step in the same sequence of development.

    There is a moral difference between terminating a zygote and murdering a baby: the difference is 9 months of incremental development, including most significantly the advent of consciousness. There is no moral difference between a zygote and an egg and sperm at the penultimate moment before fertilisation. It is entirely arbitrary to say that life is inevitable and protected after that moment, but intangible and uncertain before. A separate sperm and egg are doing exactly what a zygote does.

    There must be moral recognition that millions eggs die in every woman born, and billions of sperm die in every man born, and unbeknownst to the gestating woman, half of all pregnancies just fail. To seek the voluntary end of a pregnancy before the apparatus of consciousness have even emerged in the foetus is not of moral concern.

    Incidentally, some people do make pro-choice arguments I find worthless, so I should list them:
    • Some pro-choicers refer to the zygote as "part of the woman's body" as though it were an organ of hers like a spleen, or a hair follicle or something. This is false; the zygote is clearly in the mother's body, not part of it.*
    • Choice is important for the fact that different options are available, one of which is to continue gestation in many cases where someone else might wish to abort. However, some pro-choicers, and most pro-choice laws, think the decision is relevant only to the gestating woman; that just isn't true. Consider that consent in sexual activity is also important to both men and women. Due to his own views on abortion, a man may choose and declare his consent to sex only if a woman agrees she will not seek an abortion unless her life is in danger from a physical condition such as ectopic pregnancy. Where his consent is based on her commitment, he should be able to hold her to her commitment, and abortion should not be a legal option for that woman if she has committed not to seek one at the time consent was agreed to the original sexual act.







    *some fetal cells remain circulating in the woman's body apparently; this is a fascinating lifelong echo of a pregnancy.
    Last edited by bankside; March 31st, 2013 at 08:13 AM.
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  36. #136
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by eastofeden View Post
    Sadness and/or regret is not the same as having wanted children. They "wanted" different circumstances...and you don't know what they feel is a lie.

    ....and who said anything about any of them having abortions? Actually...only one of them did and she certainly didn't consult me when she did it. Had she done so I would have told her to make the choice that was right for her. Being a good friend means allowing people to be who they are...not acting like some fucking Christian Camp Counselor.



    I know that. It isn't a "lie" for everyone however. Do you think you have some kind of answer to everyone else's psychological problems because "you" overcame your circumstances....therefore everyone can? Newsflash...people are all different. Does your ego not understand that?

    The only person I should apologize to is myself for entering this thread. I know better than to respond....but I did it anyway.
    And yet you continue to post in it even after writing this.

    You might want to check your reading and comprehension skills, while you are at it, too. Where did I say anything about your "friends" having abortions?

    Your idea of what being a friend is is perverted. Friends tell each other the truth. Sometimes the truth hurts. Sometimes it encourages and gives hope. Either way it has the potential to heal if it is honestly regarded. If your friends told you they are angry women, you could tell them you agree. That would be a truth that hurts. You could then go on to tell them that they are great at friendships and as spouses or partners. That would be a truth that encourages. Angry people don't have to remain angry, but you are no friend when you just accept their anger as "allowing them to be the people they are". Would you accept violence in them, too, or lying and cheating as acceptable character traits? In these women's youth, they wanted children but chose not to because they had anger issues. People like you supported that. Now, they are old, angry, bitter and resentful and sad. A friend would want the best for a friend. It's not about forcing people to change against their wills, but a friend give love and hope for something better than a lifetime of anger and resentment.
    Everyone wants to be heard. No one wants to listen.

  37. #137
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    ^^^ None of this is relevant to the subject of the right to abortion.
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  38. #138
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by sixthson View Post
    And yet you continue to post in it even after writing this.

    You might want to check your reading and comprehension skills, while you are at it, too. Where did I say anything about your "friends" having abortions?

    Your idea of what being a friend is is perverted. Friends tell each other the truth. Sometimes the truth hurts. Sometimes it encourages and gives hope. Either way it has the potential to heal if it is honestly regarded. If your friends told you they are angry women, you could tell them you agree. That would be a truth that hurts. You could then go on to tell them that they are great at friendships and as spouses or partners. That would be a truth that encourages. Angry people don't have to remain angry, but you are no friend when you just accept their anger as "allowing them to be the people they are". Would you accept violence in them, too, or lying and cheating as acceptable character traits? In these women's youth, they wanted children but chose not to because they had anger issues. People like you supported that. Now, they are old, angry, bitter and resentful and sad. A friend would want the best for a friend. It's not about forcing people to change against their wills, but a friend give love and hope for something better than a lifetime of anger and resentment.
    Different women...different lives...different choices. I do tell them the truth when they ask. They made the right choice IMO. If they ever decide to be a walking Lifetime or Hallmark movie of the week...I'll suggest a Christian Camp Counselor. I think alot of people shouldn't be parents or have children but since I respect personal choice I usually keep my opinion to myself. If you don't approve...I will take that as a compliment.

    My concern is with the children who are living...not the fetus.

  39. #139
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by eastofeden View Post

    My concern is with the children who are living...not the fetus.
    Yes, they grow up to be adults who might buy drinks from you, so I understand where you are coming from.
    Everyone wants to be heard. No one wants to listen.

  40. #140
    Lions&Tigers&Bears Oh My!
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by sixthson View Post
    Yes, they grow up to be adults who might buy drinks from you, so I understand where you are coming from.
    You don't have a clue where I am coming from. Lets end this.

  41. #141
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Bumping with an update:

    Judge overturns tough North Dakota abortion law


    District Judge Daniel Hovland found the law "invalid and unconstitutional" on Wednesday.

    "The United States Supreme Court has spoken and has unequivocally said no state may deprive a woman of the choice to terminate her pregnancy at a point prior to viability," Judge Hovland wrote in his ruling.

    BBC News
    You can read the full opinion here if you'd like.

    Wayne Stenehjem, the state's Attorney General, hasn't announced yet whether he'll appeal the decision, but I can't see why he wouldn't.

  42. #142
    The nice guy from Nice. dpnice's Avatar
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Thanks for that update. It brought this thread to my notice and though it took some time waded through all the replies it received.

    When I read the title I couldn't believe it was for real; exactly the same as when I first read about Spain changing their laws on abortion.

    Will people now believe me that all the rights we have achieved for homosexuals are not written in concrete. There is always the possibility that one day it once more becomes illegal; we only have to watch what is happening in Russia to be wary of what the future might hold for us.
    http://justusboys.com/forum/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=72786&dateline=115443  2352

  43. #143
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    ^Furthermore, the conspiracy theory in me suggests that the reason Republikkkans can't even vote for background checks (when 91% of the entire public wanted them), is that they want as many guns out there as possible - in the hands of those WHO TEND TO BUY GUNS. That is, many more guns would be in Republikkkan hands. Homosexuals do not usually buy guns. Homeless people and the poor don't usually buy guns. Liberals don't usually buy guns...intellectuals don't usually buy guns...women don't usually buy guns...

    Couple this with those extremists who want civil war (and who are usually armed-to-the-hilt with tons of guns)...I'm not even sure that a Pol Pot type of civil war can be ruled out at this point.
    "All legal U. S. residents who are 18 years or older, shall have an unconditional right to vote." - We need a 28th Amendment to the U. S. Constitution which resembles this...NOW!

    VOTING: Just remember: "Be careful of what you DON'T wish for. You might just get it." GET OUT AND VOTE for what you DO wish for.

    "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires" - Susan B. Anthony

  44. #144
    CupidBoy
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Oh Digital.

  45. #145
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by CupidBoy View Post
    Oh Digital.
    Yeah i thought the good sis was back with us as well. mess.
    "You may only be one person to the world, but you may also be the world to one person"
    - anonymous quote.

  46. #146
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by Axxess View Post
    Bumping with an update:



    You can read the full opinion here if you'd like.

    Wayne Stenehjem, the state's Attorney General, hasn't announced yet whether he'll appeal the decision, but I can't see why he wouldn't.
    The law was foolish on the face of it to begin with. Claiming that an entity without the complex brainwaves indicative of -- at the very least -- dream states and such is a person is scientifically ridiculous. Personhood requires mind, and mind requires a certain level of complexity in brain activity.

    I'm just disappointed that no judge has yet introduced that concept into a judgment -- it's about time we started being scientific about this matter.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  47. #147
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by frankfrank View Post
    ^Furthermore, the conspiracy theory in me suggests that the reason Republikkkans can't even vote for background checks (when 91% of the entire public wanted them), is that they want as many guns out there as possible - in the hands of those WHO TEND TO BUY GUNS. That is, many more guns would be in Republikkkan hands. Homosexuals do not usually buy guns. Homeless people and the poor don't usually buy guns. Liberals don't usually buy guns...intellectuals don't usually buy guns...women don't usually buy guns...

    Couple this with those extremists who want civil war (and who are usually armed-to-the-hilt with tons of guns)...I'm not even sure that a Pol Pot type of civil war can be ruled out at this point.
    The background check issue is a tangled mess of political deviousness. Republicans fought hard to get the NICS system for background checks open to all sellers, dealers or not, so people selling their own firearms could check on the person they were selling to. But Democrats blocked that at every turn. Now Democrats want to make background checks mandatory -- and the part of that related to this topic is that it shows they're only pro-choice when that serves their agenda. So bring these two together, and it's evident that neither party is in favor of personal liberty and responsibility except when it suits their purposes, neither party really cares about individual rights -- just in having power.


    Just BTW, most of the people I shoot with are liberals, intellectuals, women, and homosexuals. We've had discussions about who we'd put up pictures of to shoot at if that were allowed, and Rush Limbaugh beats out Hillary Clinton (we just don't think it's a good idea to be shooting at pictures of anyone still living).

    Anyway... back to topic.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  48. #148

    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by bendted View Post
    Not so fast. It has to go up for referendum first.
    Has it happened?

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