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  1. #51
    JohannBessler
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    ^The thing is, Coward, you are deciding for everyone else.

    Haven't you had enough of Christians deciding for us that being gay is a "lifestyle choice"?

  2. #52
    Coward92
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by JohannBessler View Post
    ^The thing is, Coward, you are deciding for everyone else.

    Haven't you had enough of Christians deciding for us that being gay is a "lifestyle choice"?
    It is not about me making a decision. And I certainly not making decisons for all of you. As I said before, you do whatever you want, and you should always be free to do so, but face the consequences. Face the weight of what you are doing. Those who turn a blind eye to the whole picture are destructive. Plain and simple.
    This whole shit-throwing contest between pro-life and pro-choice people is about judgement, shame, and guilt. It's not about the embryos. It's about making abortus sound better, becuase if everyone thinks it's okay than people can feel better about themselves after doing it.
    Only because millions tell you that 1+1=3 it won't be true. No matter how loud you yell that the Earth is flat, it isn't. No matter how much you would like to say that the embryo is not alive and it is not human, it is.

    Science has a definition of life.
    Now, you can strip the fetus of it's human qualities to make yourselves feel better about destroying it, but I don't approve of it, and what I said is true. It is a waste. You can argue that it isn't but I didn't see any arguments that would be based on selfless facts. Every argument I heard pro-abortion was about the comfort of a single individual. They also tried to appear as scientifically valid, while the truth is that science doesn't support their claims at all. And yes, I study biology.

    I also find it laughable that as long as science claims things you love to hear, it is sacred and invulnerable, but at the moment you doesn't like what you see/hear you try to invalidate it by saying it is bullshit, without proper arguments.

    It's not about religion at all.
    There is morality outside of the chruch, and if you love human rights, and i bet you do, than you can't just turn a blind eye over this waste.
    If abortion were only a tool to abort pregnancies resulted from rape, or it would be used only if medical reasons make it neccessary than I wouldn't have a word, but only about 10% of abortions are performed for those purposes. All the rest is about people being irresponsible, selfish and comfortable. Making anything/anyone else pay for your faults is wrong.

    And I still say: If you really want an abortion, go ahead, do it. But face it. Face that you are trading a life for your own comfort.

  3. #53
    JohannBessler
    Guest

    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    ^One could make all the same arguments about homosexuality.

    "If you choose it, you will have to face the consequences."

  4. #54
    Coward92
    Guest

    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by JohannBessler View Post
    ^One could make all the same arguments about homosexuality.

    "If you choose it, you will have to face the consequences."
    But it is not a choice, unlike abortion.

  5. #55
    JohannBessler
    Guest

    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    ^So says you. Billions of other people disagree.'

  6. #56
    Coward92
    Guest

    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by JohannBessler View Post
    ^So says you. Billions of other people disagree.'
    The truth is objective. No matter how many people say yellow is blue, it is still yellow.

  7. #57
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    zoltanspawn's Avatar
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by Coward92 View Post
    Zoltan, I don't have to say anything that defines life. Biology did it decades ago. Please, look it up on the internet or a book.
    My definition of life is exactly the same. Please note that biology defines life on many levels, including (but not exclusively) individual and supraindividual life.

    Parasites:
    Parasites are alive, and studies have shown that parasitic species evolve into symbiotic creatures over millions of years.
    You can hate the bacteria in your colons, and you can disrespect them, but if you destroy them, you ruin your metabolic system.
    Those bacteria have a symbiotic connection with you, but they were parasites back in the day. Also, if their numbers become too much they might still pose a danger, yet, without them, there is no functional system in your body that would be able of self-preservation.

    If you rid the world of parasites, you destroy a way of evolutionary development. (You take away the chance to develop)

    Every life deserves respect, because it is unique, valuable and impossible to recreate. Even if we copy the DNA and create a specimen with the same genetic material, it won't be the same.
    I'm not sure that what you think constitutes life matches a traditional biological checklist of things that do. This is why I'm asking for your personal understanding. For instance, your assertion that cancerous cells are not alive is inconsistent with a traditional biological understanding of living things, and so I'm pressing you to try to figure out what it is about your understanding of life that endows respect .

    Your defense of parasites is interesting. I'm not even remotely convinced--nor do I think any reasonable person would be--that we ought to respect parasites' lives because millions of years hence they might form a symbiotic relationship with another creature. Isn't it enough to admire how nifty parasites are before we crush them? As amazing as a bot fly might be, there's nothing about the mere fact that it's alive (nor that it might evolve into a kindly friend over coming millenia) that means we ought not disrespect and destroy the little fuckers.

    You continue to confuse single acts of destruction with genocides and extinctions.

    Your last argument is new: unique things ought to be respected. Meh.
    “Why is it that we rejoice at a birth and grieve at a funeral? It is because we are not the person involved.” ~ Mark Twain

  8. #58
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by Coward92 View Post
    Every argument I heard pro-abortion was about the comfort of a single individual.
    Balderdash.
    “Why is it that we rejoice at a birth and grieve at a funeral? It is because we are not the person involved.” ~ Mark Twain

  9. #59
    JohannBessler
    Guest

    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by Coward92 View Post
    The truth is objective. No matter how many people say yellow is blue, it is still yellow.
    That's what the Christians say.

  10. #60
    Coward92
    Guest

    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by JohannBessler View Post
    That's what the scientists say.
    I corrected this for you.

  11. #61
    Coward92
    Guest

    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by zoltanspawn View Post
    I'm not sure that what you think constitutes life matches a traditional biological checklist of things that do. This is why I'm asking for your personal understanding. For instance, your assertion that cancerous cells are not alive is inconsistent with a traditional biological understanding of living things, and so I'm pressing you to try to figure out what it is about your understanding of life that endows respect .

    Your defense of parasites is interesting. I'm not even remotely convinced--nor do I think any reasonable person would be--that we ought to respect parasites' lives because millions of years hence they might form a symbiotic relationship with another creature. Isn't it enough to admire how nifty parasites are before we crush them? As amazing as a bot fly might be, there's nothing about the mere fact that it's alive (nor that it might evolve into a kindly friend over coming millenia) that means we ought not disrespect and destroy the little fuckers.

    You continue to confuse single acts of destruction with genocides and extinctions.

    Your last argument is new: unique things ought to be respected. Meh.
    My goal is not to convince you, because that is impossible. I merely make a stand.
    Cancerous cells constitute a tumor, which is not alive. The cells show signs of life, but they don't show all of them, thus they don't contribute into supraindividual life.
    Also, cancer itself is not caused by an organic agent (virus, bacteria or anything else), it is caused by non-organic factors. Destruction of the cancerous cells is a solution for cancers, but a lasting solution for cancer can't be found through the destruction of cancerous cells. The solution will be probably an enzyme.

    You may destroy them, but as I said, you remove a chance of development by doing so. Nobody cares about your feelings and opinions related to bot-flies. Their destruction results in a lack of possibility to evolve over millions of years. And yes, only because you will live 60 years or so, it doesn't mean that you have the right to decide the fate of the world for the following generations, because they will be the ones who have to live in the circumstances that we create today.

    I'm not confusing anything. You just shifted extinction to destruction because my previous arguments prove that the complete eradication of a species is bad for the ecosystem and you can't argue with that.

    "Meh." I won't even comment that.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by zoltanspawn View Post
    Balderdash.
    Arguments to contribute?

  12. #62
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by Coward92 View Post
    And I still say: If you really want an abortion, go ahead, do it. But face it. Face that you are trading a life for your own comfort.
    Are you saying they should "face" what you have decided is the truth or do they get to define the truth for themselves?

    A couple months back one of my female friends said something to me that kinda shocked me initially..didn't know how to take it...so I thought about it a bit and came to a few conclusions.

    What she said..."Thank God for you because you have been a good friend to a handful of the most difficult women I can ever imagine...including me...for years and years" and "No one else would have been able to deal with us"....and I immediately wanted to say she was wrong but thinking about it even for a few minutes I realized that she was right...my female friends are those "difficult women". Some are angry...all of them will get in your face...they are all fighters for sure. For me though...they are my friends (30-40 years now)and I love them and I know why.....

    None have any children and for almost all of them they have a deep sadness and regret about it BUT they knew they would be abusive to any kind of child...or maybe pass on their genes and life experience that wasn't so great...and they never wanted to subject a child to the kind of life they had. They are all painfully honest about it and it is probably the reason I was drawn to them in the first place having been born to a woman who should have never had children.

    Alot of times they will say to me how much I helped them out or saved them from this or that but the truth is they saved me by helping me understand that there are women who are smart enough and have the fortitude to own their shit and not want to pass it off to someone else...who understand who they are and don't let people (like you) define them or their lives.

    Irresponsible, selfish and comfortable?????? You have it all wrong. The selfish ones are the ones who have children when they know they have no business raising a child. The selfish ones are the ones who pretend their child isn't being molested by their father because it is too much for them to handle. The selfish ones have children as an extension of their fucked up egos....

  13. #63
    JohannBessler
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by Coward92 View Post
    I corrected this for you.
    It sounds to me like you've grown up in a Christian household.

    You don't seem to realize that you're bullying people with your beliefs, just as the Christians bullied you with their beliefs.

  14. #64
    Coward92
    Guest

    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by eastofeden View Post
    Are you saying they should "face" what you have decided is the truth or do they get to define the truth for themselves?

    A couple months back one of my female friends said something to me that kinda shocked me initially..didn't know how to take it...so I thought about it a bit and came to a few conclusions.

    What she said..."Thank God for you because you have been a good friend to a handful of the most difficult women I can ever imagine...including me...for years and years" and "No one else would have been able to deal with us"....and I immediately wanted to say she was wrong but thinking about it even for a few minutes I realized that she was right...my female friends are those "difficult women". Some are angry...all of them will get in your face...they are all fighters for sure. For me though...they are my friends (30-40 years now)and I love them and I know why.....

    None have any children and for almost all of them they have a deep sadness and regret about it BUT they knew they would be abusive to any kind of child...or maybe pass on their genes and life experience that wasn't so great...and they never wanted to subject a child to the kind of life they had. They are all painfully honest about it and it is probably the reason I was drawn to them in the first place having been born to a woman who should have never had children.

    Alot of times they will say to me how much I helped them out or saved them from this or that but the truth is they saved me by helping me understand that there are women who are smart enough and have the fortitude to own their shit and not want to pass it off to someone else...who understand who they are and don't let people (like you) define them or their lives.

    Irresponsible, selfish and comfortable?????? You have it all wrong. The selfish ones are the ones who have children when they know they have no business raising a child. The selfish ones are the ones who pretend their child isn't being molested by their father because it is too much for them to handle. The selfish ones have children as an extension of their fucked up egos....
    I am sorry, but I think everyone becomes what he/she wants to become.
    You are not caged into your personality. You are the one arranging the bars as you see fit. And it is hard. But comfort is no excuse when it affects someone else negatively.
    If you want to be a good mother, you can be. It is a matter of discipline and sense of duty. If you can love your children too that is definitely a bonus.
    BUT!
    If someone struggles to have a child she will definitely do it because she loves it before it was even born. I have seen terrible parents, but I think only because someone sucks as a parent, doesn't mean that their children doesn't deserve to live.

    "I would make a bad mother" is not an excuse for abortion. Even if one believe she would perform badly in that role, she can still give the child to people who would kill to have one (Ahem...)

    Selfish people are the ones who rather take away something from someone else to make up for a mistake that they have committed.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by JohannBessler View Post
    It sounds to me like you've grown up in a Christian household.

    You don't seem to realize that you're bullying people with your beliefs, just as the Christians bullied you with their beliefs.
    I don't bully you ot anyone else. Making you see the things the way they are is not bullying. It may hurt, but hey... You can stop reading me anytime.
    Last edited by Coward92; March 29th, 2013 at 04:47 AM.

  15. #65
    Ruminating
    sixthson's Avatar
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by eastofeden View Post
    None have any children and for almost all of them they have a deep sadness and regret about it BUT they knew they would be abusive to any kind of child...or maybe pass on their genes and life experience that wasn't so great...and they never wanted to subject a child to the kind of life they had. They are all painfully honest about it and it is probably the reason I was drawn to them in the first place having been born to a woman who should have never had children.

    Alot of times they will say to me how much I helped them out or saved them from this or that but the truth is they saved me by helping me understand that there are women who are smart enough and have the fortitude to own their shit and not want to pass it off to someone else...who understand who they are and don't let people (like you) define them or their lives.
    Your friends wanted children but decided not to because they bought the lie about "bad genes" or the lie that because they had bad parents and bad childhood experiences, they were doomed to be bad parents. It doesn't sound like you were a good friend to them, but rather an enabler in their self condemnation. Lots of us have had bad parents, parents who never should have had children (myself included), but that never kept us from being great Dads. A real friend helps his friends to realize their dreams and true potential, not perpetuate the fears they already have about themselves.
    A child of bad parenting does not have to become a bad parent any more than a molested child needs to grow up to become a molester. It's all lies.
    You should apologize to your "friends".
    Everyone wants to be heard. No one wants to listen.

  16. #66
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by sixthson View Post
    Your friends wanted children but decided not to because they bought the lie about "bad genes" or the lie that because they had bad parents and bad childhood experiences, they were doomed to be bad parents. It doesn't sound like you were a good friend to them, but rather an enabler in their self condemnation. Lots of us have had bad parents, parents who never should have had children (myself included), but that never kept us from being great Dads. A real friend helps his friends to realize their dreams and true potential, not perpetuate the fears they already have about themselves.
    A child of bad parenting does not have to become a bad parent any more than a molested child needs to grow up to become a molester. It's all lies.
    You should apologize to your "friends".
    Sadness and/or regret is not the same as having wanted children. They "wanted" different circumstances...and you don't know what they feel is a lie.

    ....and who said anything about any of them having abortions? Actually...only one of them did and she certainly didn't consult me when she did it. Had she done so I would have told her to make the choice that was right for her. Being a good friend means allowing people to be who they are...not acting like some fucking Christian Camp Counselor.

    A child of bad parenting does not have to become a bad parent any more than a molested child needs to grow up to become a molester. It's all lies.
    I know that. It isn't a "lie" for everyone however. Do you think you have some kind of answer to everyone else's psychological problems because "you" overcame your circumstances....therefore everyone can? Newsflash...people are all different. Does your ego not understand that?

    The only person I should apologize to is myself for entering this thread. I know better than to respond....but I did it anyway.

  17. #67
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by Coward92 View Post
    Selfish people are the ones who rather take away something from someone else to make up for a mistake that they have committed.

    You keep referring to a fertilized egg as "someone else". It is a fetus.

  18. #68
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Consider that a law permitting abortion does not oblige people to have an abortion.

    On another note:
    Those of you who equate abortion with "murdering a baby" - without foundation, and unconvincingly, I must add - do you not see the dilemma of your own logic? You would prevent the "attempted murder" but then be satisfied to see the child raised by the "attempted murderer," all while arguing that these "muderous" pregnant women declaring themselves unfit to parent is just making excuses. If a so-called attempted murderer decides they are not ready for parenthood I think you would have to concede the point.

    Anyway come back to me when you start holding the candlelight vigils for the HALF of ALL pregnancies that are automatically rejected by the body.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  19. #69
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    When will men - especially GAY men - learn that they have ZERO right to open their mouths when it comes to a complex moral decision they are utterly immune to?
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  20. #70
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Link

    So the Governor signed the bill on Tuesday (no surprise there). It will go into effect August 1st, assuming of course it isn't challenged in court before then.

  21. #71
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    When will men - especially GAY men - learn that they have ZERO right to open their mouths when it comes to a complex moral decision they are utterly immune to?
    Any human has the capacity to exercise ethical reasoning about any activity, including those made by other humans. Of course you do the same in your own comment; suggesting what behaviour in others is ethical.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  22. #72
    JohannBessler
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by Coward92 View Post
    . Making you see the things the way they are is not bullying. It may hurt, but hey... You can stop reading me anytime.
    Making me see something is not bullying?

  23. #73
    JohannBessler
    Guest

    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    I'm starting to feel sorry for you, Coward.

    I can see why you've had such a hard time accepting your sexuality. You've been brainwashed by your religion.

    I empathize, Coward.My own father was a pastor. It took many years for me to undo the damage.

  24. #74
    Coward92
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by eastofeden View Post
    You keep referring to a fertilized egg as "someone else". It is a fetus.
    With undeniable human qualities. Which pro-choice people try to strip them of so badly.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by JohannBessler View Post
    Making me see something is not bullying?
    It is called tough love.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by JohannBessler View Post
    I'm starting to feel sorry for you, Coward.

    I can see why you've had such a hard time accepting your sexuality. You've been brainwashed by your religion.

    I empathize, Coward.My own father was a pastor. It took many years for me to undo the damage.
    My mother is also a "pastor".
    Also, please allow me to select the things that I keep valuable from my religious background. I discard what I deem worthy of discarding. Respect of life is not one of those.
    I also don't wish to let go of my thirst for objectivity because you consider it "bullying".
    It is not my fault that someone feels bad about what I say. It has to do something with his relation to that certain concept, especially if it is objectively true.
    Last edited by Coward92; March 29th, 2013 at 10:54 AM.

  25. #75
    Coward92
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Anyway come back to me when you start holding the candlelight vigils for the HALF of ALL pregnancies that are automatically rejected by the body.
    I am merely talking about cases which were a result of human choice.
    And there are people who actually grieve for their failed pregnancies.

  26. #76
    Coward92
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    When will men - especially GAY men - learn that they have ZERO right to open their mouths when it comes to a complex moral decision they are utterly immune to?
    We have all rights to do so. It is a question concerning humanity as a whole.
    The way humanity considers abortion will fundamentally affect our culture.

  27. #77
    JohannBessler
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by Coward92 View Post




    My mother is also a "pastor".
    .
    I knew it.

    I really do empathize, Coward. I'm not saying this to mock you; I'm absolutely sincere.

    Religious parents mean well, but their gay sons have a terrible time accepting themselves.

  28. #78
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post

    Any human has the capacity to exercise ethical reasoning about any activity, including those made by other humans. Of course you do the same in your own comment; suggesting what behaviour in others is ethical.
    Not when it's an ethical issue that is completely incomprehensible to the human exercising it. And there's a difference between ethical reasoning and forcing opinions on the people the issue actually affects.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  29. #79
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coward92 View Post

    We have all rights to do so. It is a question concerning humanity as a whole.
    The way humanity considers abortion will fundamentally affect our culture.
    It is a question a man can't understand. You can talk all you want about life, humanity etc, but the fact remains that you have never, nor will you ever face the issue yourself. There are multiple layers of the issue that you can't even begin to comprehend, as they are so tightly related to the physical aspects.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  30. #80
    Coward92
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by JohannBessler View Post
    I knew it.

    I really do empathize, Coward. I'm not saying this to mock you; I'm absolutely sincere.

    Religious parents mean well, but their gay sons have a terrible time accepting themselves.
    Derailing our discussion takes you nowhere. Even if I would happen to have a hard time accepting myself, abortion remains the same.

  31. #81
    Coward92
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    It is a question a man can't understand. You can talk all you want about life, humanity etc, but the fact remains that you have never, nor will you ever face the issue yourself. There are multiple layers of the issue that you can't even begin to comprehend, as they are so tightly related to the physical aspects.
    So if some terrorists, say decide to drive an aeroplane right into a twin tower it is none of our bussiness, because I can never comprehend what it feels like?

    Please don't come up with the "this is beyond your comprehension" argument. I know what it is like to care for someone as if he was your own flesh. Also, understanding doesn't make something morally acceptable.

  32. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coward92 View Post

    Derailing our discussion takes you nowhere. Even if I would happen to have a hard time accepting myself, abortion remains the same.
    You don't really know that. It's a moral position like any other. One can change.

    I would not have been born if my grandmother had believed in abortion. Doesn't mean I presume to force my morals on her.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  33. #83
    JohannBessler
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    @Coward: You're missing the point.

    My point is that your religious upbring has been wholly responsible for shaping your opinions on abortion.

  34. #84
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coward92 View Post

    So if some terrorists, say decide to drive an aeroplane right into a twin tower it is none of our bussiness, because I can never comprehend what it feels like?

    Please don't come up with the "this is beyond your comprehension" argument. I know what it is like to care for someone as if he was your own flesh. Also, understanding doesn't make something morally acceptable.
    You're not the ultimate judge of morality and it's always good to remain aware of that fact. Your comparison is dumb btw
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  35. #85
    Coward92
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    You don't really know that. It's a moral position like any other. One can change.

    I would not have been born if my grandmother had believed in abortion. Doesn't mean I presume to force my morals on her.
    Abortion remains the same. It's essence won't change, it will remain the same no matter how I happen to judge it.
    Reality is objective.

    - - - Updated - - -

    My argument is dumb, because...?

  36. #86
    Coward92
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by JohannBessler View Post
    @Coward: You're missing the point.

    My point is that your religious upbring has been wholly responsible for shaping your opinions on abortion.
    No. I was responsible for that. I have decided to examine the subject from a scientific point of view. Even there you can't claim it is a positive phenomena by any means. From a moral point of view, yes the catholic upbringing has an effect on my judgement, but there are numerous other religions that claim that life is to be respected.

    And as I said many times, morality exists outside of religion. It is not an opinion, it is a fact.
    One doesn't have to be religious to see why abortus is a morally questionable decision.

    However, even if I don't look at it from a religious point of view, it is still a waste.

    We have wasted hundreds of talented, wonderful hopes and dreams. And not our own hopes and dreams.
    Last edited by Coward92; March 29th, 2013 at 12:23 PM.

  37. #87
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coward92 View Post

    Abortion remains the same. It's essence won't change, it will remain the same no matter how I happen to judge it.
    Reality is objective.

    - - - Updated - - -

    My argument is dumb, because...?
    So will gay marriage, yet something that was unthinkable a bare three years ago, is happening this week, no? This is a ridiculous argument - of course things don't change, but the perception of them changes. And your example was dumb because this isn't about personal circumstances but biological.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  38. #88
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    In general, you'll notice women are overwhelmingly pro choice. Why do you think that is?
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  39. #89
    Coward92
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    So will gay marriage, yet something that was unthinkable a bare three years ago, is happening this week, no? This is a ridiculous argument - of course things don't change, but the perception of them changes. And your example was dumb because this isn't about personal circumstances but biological.
    "So if some terrorists, say decide to drive an aeroplane right into a twin tower it is none of our bussiness, because I can never comprehend what it feels like?" - There is nothing biological about that question.

    About my previous arguments (the ones you didn't take part in): If something opposes your views is it dumb? I don't think so. It is absolutely allright to choose any point of view to observe a phenomena.
    There is nothing wrong with points of view. There are many relevant ones, and the more there are, the better the results we get about the objective truth. Turning a blind eye never earns you truth, but it may give you comfort.

    You talk about personal circumstances, but aren't people part of society? Doesn't one's actions affect the people he/she is connected to? Maybe we don't have the right to do something that will strip someone of his/her rights to live?

    How did gay marriage even come up here?
    It was never wrong in the first place.

    Women are overwhelmingly pro choice, because it is their ass on the line. It is their comfort and "rights" that need protecting.
    Last edited by Coward92; March 29th, 2013 at 01:05 PM.

  40. #90
    JohannBessler
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by Coward92 View Post
    No. I was responsible for that. I have decided to examine the subject from a scientific point of view. Even there you can't claim it is a positive phenomena by any means. From a moral point of view, yes the catholic upbringing has an effect on my judgement, but there are numerous other religions that claim that life is to be respected.

    .
    Actually, almost all pro-life sentiment comes from religious people.

    It's not related to science at all.

  41. #91
    Coward92
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Maybe it comes from people who care?
    Maybe? Possibly?
    Not related to science at all? Everything is related to science. Sorry.

  42. #92
    JohannBessler
    Guest

    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    ^I see you as a very nice person who has an opinion based on religion, not science.

    Why not science?

    Scientists are overwhelmingly atheist or agnostic, and also overwhelmingly pro-choice.
    Religious people are predominantly pro-life.

  43. #93
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    ^^^ This. And it's the abortion issue that's biological, not the terrorist duh.

    Also, waiting for an answer - why are over 80% of women pro choice?

    And yes, the pro-life argument is rooted in religion and the concept of a soul that's present at conception.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  44. #94
    Lions&Tigers&Bears Oh My!
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    I completely believe in the concept of a soul...and because I do... I believe that you can't kill a soul. It doesn't matter if it is present from the moment the egg is fertilized or at birth.

  45. #95
    On the Prowl vaporlockd's Avatar
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    I live here.
    This state is pretty ass-backwards.
    Click image for larger version. 

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  46. #96
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by Coward92 View Post
    I am merely talking about cases which were a result of human choice.
    And there are people who actually grieve for their failed pregnancies.
    Around half of pregnancies result in "Huh…I was starting to wonder when my period would come…I was going to buy a pregnancy test if it wasn't here by the weekend…but here we go!" People don't grieve for them because they either aren't aware of them, or because they recognise that a few cells later, it wasn't meant to be.

    I have great compassion for people who want a pregnancy, choose it, and then feel the loss when it ends. People actually grieve for their failed pregnancies; true. But they can also grieve for continuing pregnancies they have no way to prepare for. Where's your compassion for them?
    Last edited by bankside; March 29th, 2013 at 05:34 PM.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  47. #97
    rip Angalifu
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    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by Coward92 View Post
    Nobody cares about your feelings and opinions related to bot-flies. Their destruction results in a lack of possibility to evolve over millions of years. And yes, only because you will live 60 years or so, it doesn't mean that you have the right to decide the fate of the world for the following generations, because they will be the ones who have to live in the circumstances that we create today.

    I'm not confusing anything. You just shifted extinction to destruction because my previous arguments prove that the complete eradication of a species is bad for the ecosystem and you can't argue with that.
    "No dude. You shouldn't kill that bot-fly. Like, in a million years it might evolve into a beneficial symbiont. It has a right to life. That's why I'm against abortion."
    “Why is it that we rejoice at a birth and grieve at a funeral? It is because we are not the person involved.” ~ Mark Twain

  48. #98

    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by Coward92 View Post
    Maybe it comes from people who care?
    Maybe? Possibly?
    Not related to science at all? Everything is related to science. Sorry.
    Don't apologise. People who are too arrogant and happy to insult others are not worthy of your apologies.
    .

  49. #99
    Coward92
    Guest

    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Exceptions are neccessary for contrast. I am happy to serve as a weird example.
    My point of view is not more invalid than any of yours.

  50. #100
    Coward92
    Guest

    Re: North Dakota bans abortions and In vitro fertilization

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    ^^^ This. And it's the abortion issue that's biological, not the terrorist duh.

    Also, waiting for an answer - why are over 80% of women pro choice?

    And yes, the pro-life argument is rooted in religion and the concept of a soul that's present at conception.
    I don't believe in "soul" as the essence of a person.
    I believe we create our own souls.
    As rhythm is the soul of dance, it is action that is the soul of man.

    My arguments are based on the fact that the embyro, fetus, zygote (whatever) has a unique chance of taking part in our existance and contribute to our world. This chance is destroyed upon abortion. Imagine how much potential was eliminated. Even if 2% of those humans were talented, they would have changed our world in ways we can't imagine.

    I also believe I have given you an aswer why women are mostly pro-choice. Please check again. If I didn't send you that message by mistake, I am ready to correct it.
    Last edited by Coward92; March 30th, 2013 at 04:13 AM.

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