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  1. #51
    JockBoy87
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    Re: Supreme Court to Hear Marriage Equality Cases

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    I think I follow all that but the part I'm emphasizing is the "unless it violates the US Constitution" bit. I don't see how a state law, or provision of any state constitution, that makes marriage unequal can be found to be compliant with the US Constitution.

    I mean I'm almost not even saying anything novel here. It is obvious the US Supreme Court has standing to review whether California has made an acceptable amendment to its state constitution; it did not say "Sorry; this matter concerns Californians and therefore we say nothing."

    SCOTUS has the authority to determine whether California's constitutional provisions are permissible, and it will use the US Constitution as its measuring stick. I don't see how it can avoid measuring Proposition 8 against the Equal Protection Clause; if so Prop 8 is doomed.
    I agree with everything you said. It will be obvious to future generations of jurists, that without question, a summary judgment may be made that invalidates such laws.

    Actually, I think the plaintiffs in Strauss v. Horton (2009) should have asked the California Supreme Court to rule on the US Constitution, although I am not sure if the court had the ability to do so.

  2. #52

    Re: Supreme Court to Hear Marriage Equality Cases

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    I agree with everything you said. It will be obvious to future generations of jurists, that without question, a summary judgment may be made that invalidates such laws.

    Actually, I think the plaintiffs in Strauss v. Horton (2009) should have asked the California Supreme Court to rule on the US Constitution, although I am not sure if the court had the ability to do so.
    State courts do have the ability to do that, however it opens up a possible appeal to the Supreme Court.

  3. #53
    JockBoy87
    Guest

    Re: Supreme Court to Hear Marriage Equality Cases

    Quote Originally Posted by scream4ever View Post
    State courts do have the ability to do that, however it opens up a possible appeal to the Supreme Court.
    All 50 states? Cool.

    At least there is no longer mandatory review.

  4. #54

    Re: Supreme Court to Hear Marriage Equality Cases

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    All 50 states? Cool.

    At least there is no longer mandatory review.
    Such was the case with the BSA litigation in 2000.

  5. #55
    JockBoy87
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    Re: Supreme Court to Hear Marriage Equality Cases

    Gonna make my way down to the Supreme Court now.

    It's January like weather outside, since a recent storm decided to sweep down some Canada air for us. How nice

    Hopefully my partner can join. He's getting some car repairs Nevermind, I'll drag his ass to the metro XD

  6. #56
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: Supreme Court to Hear Marriage Equality Cases

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    It's January like weather outside, since a recent storm decided to sweep down some Canada air for us. How nice
    You're welcome… :P
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  7. #57
    JockBoy87
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    Re: Supreme Court to Hear Marriage Equality Cases

    It is a working day obviously, and it is bankside cold. If you can't make it to an event, be sure to wear red in support of the right to marry

  8. #58
    ecce homo rareboy's Avatar
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    Re: Supreme Court to Hear Marriage Equality Cases

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    Gonna make my way down to the Supreme Court now.

    It's January like weather outside, since a recent storm decided to sweep down some Canada air for us. How nice

    Hopefully my partner can join. He's getting some car repairs Nevermind, I'll drag his ass to the metro XD
    The best part?

    We're missing it all here in Ontario.

    It is actually 5C and sunny today.

    Raise hell. I wish we were there to show our support.

  9. #59
    JockBoy87
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    Re: Supreme Court to Hear Marriage Equality Cases

    Good crowd. Maybe 10000. Good speakers too. First cadets to marry in the cadet chapel, very emotional. Nice to see all these ppl here.

  10. #60
    ecce homo rareboy's Avatar
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    Re: Supreme Court to Hear Marriage Equality Cases

    The California case is being argued 10 years to the day after the court took up a challenge to Texas's anti-sodomy statute. That case ended with a forceful ruling prohibiting states from criminalizing sexual relations between consenting adults.

    Supporters of Proposition 8 say the court should respect the verdict of California voters who approved the ban in 2008 and let the fast-changing politics of gay marriage evolve on their own.

    Justice Anthony Kennedy was the author of the decision in Lawrence v. Texas in 2003, and he is being closely watched for how he might vote on the California ban. He cautioned in the Lawrence case that it had nothing to do with gay marriage, but dissenting Justice Antonin Scalia predicted the decision would lead to the invalidation of state laws against same-sex marriage.
    http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2...-marriage.html

  11. #61
    ecce homo rareboy's Avatar
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    Re: Supreme Court to Hear Marriage Equality Cases

    From Reuters:
    Two members of the U.S. Supreme Court, both viewed as potential swing votes on the right of gay couples to marry, raised doubts about California's gay marriage ban on Tuesday as they questioned a lawyer defending the ban.

    During the first half of oral argument, Chief Justice John Roberts pressed lawyer Charles Cooper on whether Cooper's clients had a legal right to appeal in federal court in favor of California's Proposition 8.

    "I don't think we've ever allowed anything like that," Roberts said. If the clients lack that right, the Supreme Court may not reach the central question of gay marriage rights.

    Justice Anthony Kennedy used one of his questions to focus on the "imminent legal injury" facing 40,000 California children being raised by gay and lesbian couples. "They want their parents to have full recognition and full status," he said.
    As some have cautioned though, beware of Kennedy. He wrote the dissenting opinion on Obamacare after everyone thought that he would be neutral.

  12. #62

    Re: Supreme Court to Hear Marriage Equality Cases

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    From Reuters:


    As some have cautioned though, beware of Kennedy. He wrote the dissenting opinion on Obamacare after everyone thought that he would be neutral.
    Totally different issue. He's always been very supportive of gay cases.

  13. #63
    Impish and Mercurial Rolyo85's Avatar
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    And yet it seems he will chicken out of Prop 8 and they won't rule on it at all. Which is great for California but sad for the rest of us, as this case could have achieved so much more...
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  14. #64

    Re: Supreme Court to Hear Marriage Equality Cases

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    And yet it seems he will chicken out of Prop 8 and they won't rule on it at all. Which is great for California but sad for the rest of us, as this case could have achieved so much more...
    A broad ruling was never likely. There are already cases working their way up through the courts which will get proper rulings in our favor.

  15. #65
    RazorzEdge88
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    Re: Supreme Court to Hear Marriage Equality Cases

    Lame. Justice delayed is justice denied.

    Sorry, people in ~40 states, you're still second-class citizens!

    Why the FUCK didn't SCOTUS save everyone time a year ago by denying standing when this was before the 9th Circuit!!?!??!

  16. #66
    RazorzEdge88
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    Re: Supreme Court to Hear Marriage Equality Cases

    I guess there's a big positive in this, in that Justice Kennedy repeatedly pointed out/mentioned the harm done to children of same-sex parents by these same-sex marriage bans. If we're reading the tea leaves, it suggests he'll be open to striking down ssm bans in the future. Hopefully Sevcik or Jackson make their way to the Supreme Court very soon, so we can end irrational discrimination on this issue once and for all.

  17. #67

    Re: Supreme Court to Hear Marriage Equality Cases

    Will anyone remind Clarence Thomas his marriage used to be illegal too?

  18. #68
    ecce homo rareboy's Avatar
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    Re: Supreme Court to Hear Marriage Equality Cases

    I'll bet there are at least 3 judges who have done so behind closed doors.

  19. #69
    JockBoy87
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    Re: Supreme Court to Hear Marriage Equality Cases

    Okay here are some of the pictures I took. I'll post some more of the signs later

    West end of the Supreme Court building.



    Equality Across America banner. They organized the 2009 march with the Courage Campaign.



    The first West Point cadet to marry in the cadel chapel. The speakers is either Penelope Gnesin or Brenda Fulton.



    Tom from the opposition. I spoke with him for 20 minutes. He was actually a nice guy. I think he came away with a better understanding.



    Interracial couple with a powerful message.



    Respondents leaving after oral arguments. Sorry I was kinda far away


  20. #70
    JUB Addict Ninja108's Avatar
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    Re: Supreme Court to Hear Marriage Equality Cases

    I could be wrong but I sadly feel what will happen is the can will get kicked down the road. Marriage will be legal in California and that will be it.

  21. #71
    Sex God AstareGod's Avatar
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    Re: Supreme Court to Hear Marriage Equality Cases

    Nice pics, JB! I was tempted to drive up to DC to be part of this historic occasion, but it's just too hard to swing that kind of thing financially. I'll be hobnobbing with all the Mississippi southerners tonight, though. Will post a few pics from that. Keep up the great work!
    Brad's Search - 70,000 words and counting!

  22. #72
    JockBoy87
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    Re: Supreme Court to Hear Marriage Equality Cases

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninja108 View Post
    I could be wrong but I sadly feel what will happen is the can will get kicked down the road. Marriage will be legal in California and that will be it.
    The analysis so far seems to agree that the justices will rule on the standing, and only Proposition 8 will be struck down, by the district court opinion.

    However, that will mean Perry v. Schwarzenegger and its factual findings will become a very persuasive authority.

    Quote Originally Posted by AstareGod View Post
    Nice pics, JB! I was tempted to drive up to DC to be part of this historic occasion, but it's just too hard to swing that kind of thing financially. I'll be hobnobbing with all the Mississippi southerners tonight, though. Will post a few pics from that. Keep up the great work!
    I can't wait to see the pictures Be sure to post them asap.

  23. #73
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Supreme Court to Hear Marriage Equality Cases

    This is why I don't get my hopes on anything. I think that everything should struck down or nothing. I don't really accept "half victories".

  24. #74
    JockBoy87
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    Re: Supreme Court to Hear Marriage Equality Cases

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    This is why I don't get my hopes on anything. I think that everything should struck down or nothing. I don't really accept "half victories".
    A ruling on the standing would be nothing, because it would not be a ruling on the merits.

    Kennedy supposedly was very uncomfortable with the 9th circuit decision, and he should be; it's convoluted. Thus, we shouldn't see a half victory.

  25. #75
    RazorzEdge88
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    Re: Supreme Court to Hear Marriage Equality Cases

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    A ruling on the standing would be nothing, because it would not be a ruling on the merits.

    Kennedy supposedly was very uncomfortable with the 9th circuit decision, and he should be; it's convoluted. Thus, we shouldn't see a half victory.
    I will forever hold a grudge against 9th Circuit Judges Michael Hawkins and Stephen Reinhardt, appointed by Clinton and Carter respectively, for giving us that mess.

  26. #76
    JockBoy87
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    Re: Supreme Court to Hear Marriage Equality Cases

    Ok all Ohioans should be proud



  27. #77
    JUB Addict T-Rexx's Avatar
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    Re: Supreme Court to Hear Marriage Equality Cases

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    Okay here are some of the pictures I took. I'll post some more of the signs later

    West end of the Supreme Court building.



    Equality Across America banner. They organized the 2009 march with the Courage Campaign.



    The first West Point cadet to marry in the cadel chapel. The speakers is either Penelope Gnesin or Brenda Fulton.



    Tom from the opposition. I spoke with him for 20 minutes. He was actually a nice guy. I think he came away with a better understanding.



    Interracial couple with a powerful message.



    Respondents leaving after oral arguments. Sorry I was kinda far away

    None of the pics are showing up for me. All blanks.

    I can't even copy and paste the urls to open a pic.

    Anyone else having this problem?

  28. #78
    JUB Addict T-Rexx's Avatar
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    Re: Supreme Court to Hear Marriage Equality Cases

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    Ok all Ohioans should be proud


    I don't get it.

    Is there something about Ohio in the pic (it doesn't display for me)?
    Last edited by T-Rexx; March 26th, 2013 at 12:22 PM.

  29. #79
    JockBoy87
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    Re: Supreme Court to Hear Marriage Equality Cases

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    None of the pics are showing up for me. All blanks.

    I can't even copy and paste the urls to open a pic.

    Anyone else having this problem?
    That's strange because they are hosted by JUB.

  30. #80
    JockBoy87
    Guest

    Re: Supreme Court to Hear Marriage Equality Cases

    Pinknews reports on some of Kennedy's comments.

    Justice Anthony Kennedy, widely regarded as the swing vote between justices on the liberal and more conservative side of the court, described today’s case as “uncharted waters”.

    He continued: ”We have five years of information to pose against 2,000 years of history or more,” he said, but went on to suggest that children of same-sex couples could face an ”immediate legal injury”, if Prop 8 were to stand.

    http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2013/03/26...proposition-8/
    He seems concerned about upholding Prop 8, but is anxious about it. Hrmm...

  31. #81
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Supreme Court to Hear Marriage Equality Cases

    If it stinks, throw it out already. That's what I would tell Kennedy.

  32. #82
    JockBoy87
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    Re: Supreme Court to Hear Marriage Equality Cases

    Kennedy was also skeptical of the comparison to Loving v. Virginia.

    He seemed concerned that gay marriage is too novel, whereas international recognition of interracial marriage was well founded by 1967.

    That's almost funny because marriage equality is about to pass in France and England, three other countries, and several states, and possibly more.

  33. #83

    Re: Supreme Court to Hear Marriage Equality Cases

    Your pics disappeared.

  34. #84
    JockBoy87
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    Re: Supreme Court to Hear Marriage Equality Cases

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyBob View Post
    Your pics disappeared.
    I see them logged in, but not logged out

    Well I'm sure there is no shortage on the blogosphere...

  35. #85
    JUB Addict T-Rexx's Avatar
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    Re: Supreme Court to Hear Marriage Equality Cases

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyBob View Post
    Your pics disappeared.
    Thanks.

    I thought it was me.

  36. #86
    JockBoy87
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    Re: Supreme Court to Hear Marriage Equality Cases

    Here's a link to some great sign pics:

    http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/the-a...8-at-the-supre

  37. #87
    Sex God AstareGod's Avatar
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    Re: Supreme Court to Hear Marriage Equality Cases

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    I see them logged in, but not logged out

    Well I'm sure there is no shortage on the blogosphere...
    Attachments uploaded via JUB won't show up for people who are not logged in. So that behavior is, I believe, intentional.

    I opened this thread using the Opera web browser, which I hardly use, and the pictures show up there, too, so JUB is still delivering them OK. T-Rexx, I'm not sure why you can't see them. PM me your email address and I'd be happy to send them over if JB is OK with that.
    Brad's Search - 70,000 words and counting!

  38. #88
    JockBoy87
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    Re: Supreme Court to Hear Marriage Equality Cases

    ^^^

    Yeah that's fine. I release them to the public domain

  39. #89
    Bammer's Papa
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    Re: Supreme Court to Hear Marriage Equality Cases

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    Editor of lawyers.com thinks the ruling will strike down all bans.
    That's a good read.

    Quote Originally Posted by RazorzEdge88 View Post
    It's so wrong on so many levels.

    But just to squash this notion of a possible "backlash of bitterness" - most people don't care anymore. There would be a very small minority of Americans who will get worked up over this, but most people will get on with their lives.

    There are two reasons I reach this conclusion:

    1. The bevy of recent polls showing majority support for marriage equality across the United States
    2. The fact that most Repubs seem to be giving up/in on this issue; an apples-to-apples comparison of values voters polling at CPAC in recent years has shown that ssm is now a low priority issue even for the conservative base

    People just don't care these days. Sitting and biting one's nails over some huge "backlash" seems laughably pointless.
    Thank the bankers. The people who might otherwise get out and really scream about the issue are too busy trying to just keep a roof over their heads and food on the table.

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Once SCOTUS makes a determination that California's constitution fails by the standard of the Equal Protection Clause, they're also making a statement about the meaning of the Equal Protection Clause which will be applicable to all states and the national government. If the US Constitution obliges California to provide equal marriage then it obliges everyone.

    That's how an "expansive" ruling would work, is it not?
    Right -- if they agree that the EPC applies, this will hit the whole country. I don't see how they can avoid it, unless they either deny standing or decide after the fact that they shouldn't have heard the case, and just dismiss it (that's re the Prop 8 case).

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  40. #90
    Bammer's Papa
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    Re: Supreme Court to Hear Marriage Equality Cases

    Quote Originally Posted by RazorzEdge88 View Post
    Lame. Justice delayed is justice denied.

    Sorry, people in ~40 states, you're still second-class citizens!

    Why the FUCK didn't SCOTUS save everyone time a year ago by denying standing when this was before the 9th Circuit!!?!??!
    Because the State of California, through its Supreme Court, said that the proponents did have standing to defend California law, and that makes this a very tricky issue because in effect California decided that because of the way their laws work, the proponents in this situation can act as official defenders of the issue. The flip side is that if, as I think they should, SCOTUS acknowledges standing because California said the proponents have it, that won't apply to any other state of even broadly to California, because California's laws are unique and so is the situation. So there's no danger in acknowledging standing; it won't be a precedent for much at all except possibly another unique case from California (or possibly some other sate with very similar initiative proposition laws).

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  41. #91
    JockBoy87
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    Re: Supreme Court to Hear Marriage Equality Cases

    ^^^ The justices will have to be convinced that the appellants are injured in order for them to have standing in federal court.

    Merely having a disagreement is not enough. The federal courts do not resolve purely philosophical disputes.

  42. #92
    JockBoy87
    Guest

    Re: Supreme Court to Hear Marriage Equality Cases

    Ginsburg also seems to agree that the half-assed "nine state solution" is dead on arrival.

    "So a state that has made considerable progress has to go all the way, but at least the government's position is, if the state has done absolutely nothing at all, then it can do as it will," Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg said.

    http://news.yahoo.com/calif-gay-marr...140803985.html
    In light of this and other comments, we will probably not see a "half-victory" as GC put it.

  43. #93
    RazorzEdge88
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    Re: Supreme Court to Hear Marriage Equality Cases

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Because the State of California, through its Supreme Court
    No shit. And SCOTUS deferred to California when it could have made the very ruling it's about to make (i.e. proponents don't have Article III standing) over a year ago.

  44. #94
    JubberClubber White Eagle's Avatar
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    Re: Supreme Court to Hear Marriage Equality Cases

    I see the pix just fine, but then I'm logged in.
    My favorites from 60 best signs.

    http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/the-a...8-at-the-supre


    I like #42:
    If you're so worried about the sancity of traditional marriage.
    Protest Divorce!

    #13
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    BEWARE! Harassing the Indian may result in sudden and severe hair loss.

  45. #95
    JUB Addict maxpowr9's Avatar
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    Re: Supreme Court to Hear Marriage Equality Cases

    Quote Originally Posted by White Eagle View Post
    I see the pix just fine, but then I'm logged in.
    My favorites from 60 best signs.

    http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/the-a...8-at-the-supre


    I like #42:
    If you're so worried about the sancity of traditional marriage.
    Protest Divorce!

    #13
    Jesus had 2 Dads and He turned out fine.
    #4.
    I'd fuck equality.

  46. #96
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: Supreme Court to Hear Marriage Equality Cases

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    I agree with everything you said. It will be obvious to future generations of jurists, that without question, a summary judgment may be made that invalidates such laws.

    Actually, I think the plaintiffs in Strauss v. Horton (2009) should have asked the California Supreme Court to rule on the US Constitution, although I am not sure if the court had the ability to do so.
    Okay further to that, probably even Scalia would hold that the US Constitution permits to legalise equal marriage, would he not? If some liberally-easterny-elitist-socialist state passed Proposition 666 instead, writing equal marriage into their state constitution, Scalia would not be able to say the US Constitution has measures which would preclude the change.

    To me its clear that the US Constitution considers equal marriage to be permissible, where it is so established by the state. The only question is whether it is obligatory.

    And that's why I think the homophobic states have shot themselves in their collective foot through "taking a stand" and amending their own constitutions in a fit of hand-wringing piety.

    If they had left well enough alone, there would have been plenty of room for a "narrow" decision in their favour by a court with a hostile conservative majority. They might have even got away with the disfigurement of their own state constitutions had other states said nothing. BUT some states approved equality measures. And they did it in a variety of compelling ways: through court decision; through legislative action; through referenda.

    So now you have a direct contest between states saying "this is a right here, and the US Constitution permits us to say so" and other states saying "this is not a right, and we hope the US Constitution permits us to get away with it."

    I think the only way to leave Prop 8 standing and make any sense of Equal Protection is to show that the US Constitution actually precludes equal marriage. There will be no possibility of that, not even in Scalia's most twisted and impassioned fantasies.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  47. #97
    JUB Addict Ninja108's Avatar
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    Re: Supreme Court to Hear Marriage Equality Cases

    It'll be in their court again. There are anti-gay marriage lawsuits pending in other states and those are being defended by the state.

  48. #98
    JockBoy87
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    Re: Supreme Court to Hear Marriage Equality Cases

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post

    So now you have a direct contest between states saying "this is a right here, and the US Constitution permits us to say so" and other states saying "this is not a right, and we hope the US Constitution permits us to get away with it."

    I think the only way to leave Prop 8 standing and make any sense of Equal Protection is to show that the US Constitution actually precludes equal marriage. There will be no possibility of that, not even in Scalia's most twisted and impassioned fantasies.
    You don't need to prove that the US Constitution allows states to formulate their own family law. State sovereignty is well established in the original US Constitution, and the 10th Amendment. In a similar vein, the appellants would never be able to show the US Constitution precludes equal marriage, because of the same reason that states are sovereign in their family laws.

    Also, the contrast between state constitutions is neither here nor there. Although establishing a right to marry is persuasive, it is not mandatory, and it does not have to be proven on constitutional grounds. If the constitutionality of the bans or rights matters in any case, it has nothing to do with marriage, and more to do with due process rights of minorities.

  49. #99
    ecce homo rareboy's Avatar
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    Re: Supreme Court to Hear Marriage Equality Cases

    Okay....

    What's the word on the street after today?

    http://tv.msnbc.com/2013/03/27/5-tak...doma-hearings/

    I can't tell whether it is a done deal or not. It certainly seems that the conservative judges are grumpy, while the liberal judges are going to speak out on behalf of the homos.

  50. #100
    JockBoy87
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    Re: Supreme Court to Hear Marriage Equality Cases

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    Okay....

    What's the word on the street after today?

    http://tv.msnbc.com/2013/03/27/5-tak...doma-hearings/

    I can't tell whether it is a done deal or not. It certainly seems that the conservative judges are grumpy, while the liberal judges are going to speak out on behalf of the homos.
    DOMA 3 is over, but we won't get a precedent based on equal protection or suspect class.

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