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  1. #1

    Guilt verdict in the Steubenville rape(?) case

    Two guys were found guilty of rape which wasn't a rape. The preponderance of evidence was hearsay from unreliable witnesses. The forensic evidence was at best inconclusive due to the fact that none was found directly on anyone. So how is it that two young men are convicted of what exactly?
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    Re: Guilt verdict in the Steubenville rape(?) case

    Quote Originally Posted by Durango95 View Post
    Two guys were found guilty of rape which wasn't a rape. The preponderance of evidence was hearsay from unreliable witnesses. The forensic evidence was at best inconclusive due to the fact that none was found directly on anyone. So how is it that two young men are convicted of what exactly?
    Dude, they fucking TWEETED it!
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  3. #3

    Re: Guilt verdict in the Steubenville rape(?) case

    The problem with these types of rape cases, where the alleged sexual assault occurred because the person assaulted was too inebriated to give consent, are always going to be problematic. It is especially problematic if the perpetrators were also drunk or high. They may have been unable to discern whether the victim was able to give consent (although in this case, the victim appears to have been out cold).

    I had a friend once who fucked his gf when he was so drunk, he didn't remember fucking her. She was pissed off he didn't remember. I had had enough to drink a few times in my youth where I didn't remember everything from the night before, and assumed I fell asleep and passed out, only to learn that I had been up and about the entire time (but I never sexually assaulted anyone). Literally, a few hours were blacked out. If both perpetrator and victim are too drunk to give consent, then ultimately who is the guilty party?

    These cases will always be difficult to prove and be controversial when decided. It does point out the importance of parents having very frank discussions with their children about these issues no later than their 13th birthday.

  4. #4

    Re: Guilt verdict in the Steubenville rape(?) case

    From the above link:
    The white guy apoligizes for taking pics and sending them out, but not for the rape. He sounded like it was something his attorney had him to memorize rather than from the heart.
    The girl may have had consentual sex with them sober, but the unhuman like behavior of the boys ( pics of her naked posted on the net) the two of them holding her by hands and feet in a passed out state, etc is despicable. It is a shame that parents and coach's place so little value on teaching morals and decent human behavior, it is all about winning the next game.
    The boys sure screwed up their lives.
    Last edited by kevin23; March 18th, 2013 at 08:07 AM.

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    Re: Guilt verdict in the Steubenville rape(?) case

    Quote Originally Posted by palemale View Post
    The problem with these types of rape cases, where the alleged sexual assault occurred because the person assaulted was too inebriated to give consent, are always going to be problematic. It is especially problematic if the perpetrators were also drunk or high. They may have been unable to discern whether the victim was able to give consent (although in this case, the victim appears to have been out cold).

    I had a friend once who fucked his gf when he was so drunk, he didn't remember fucking her. She was pissed off he didn't remember. I had had enough to drink a few times in my youth where I didn't remember everything from the night before, and assumed I fell asleep and passed out, only to learn that I had been up and about the entire time (but I never sexually assaulted anyone). Literally, a few hours were blacked out. If both perpetrator and victim are too drunk to give consent, then ultimately who is the guilty party?

    These cases will always be difficult to prove and be controversial when decided. It does point out the importance of parents having very frank discussions with their children about these issues no later than their 13th birthday.
    Um, the guilty are still those who got themselves to the point of being unable to make the wrong decision to rape another person. Plus, tweeting and bragging? Not really a black out thing.
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    Re: Guilt verdict in the Steubenville rape(?) case

    Fox news comes out as a real jazzzy place! They aired the girls name and she IS underaged.

    http://www.alternet.org/media/fox-ne...tter811103&t=5

    March 18, 2013 |

    On Monday, Fox News’ America’s Newsroom aired the name of the underage victim in the Steubenville rape case.

    During a report by correspondent Mike Tobin, the station aired a clip of 17-year-old Trent Mays, one of the rapists, apologizing in the courtroom on Sunday.
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    Re: Guilt verdict in the Steubenville rape(?) case

    Quote Originally Posted by palemale View Post
    The problem with these types of rape cases, where the alleged sexual assault occurred because the person assaulted was too inebriated to give consent, are always going to be problematic. It is especially problematic if the perpetrators were also drunk or high. They may have been unable to discern whether the victim was able to give consent (although in this case, the victim appears to have been out cold).
    Quote Originally Posted by palemale View Post
    These cases will always be difficult to prove and be controversial when decided. It does point out the importance of parents having very frank discussions with their children about these issues no later than their 13th birthday.
    There is another problem with these cases, and that is that the punishment destroys the lives of the perpetrators. While some may argue that is justice, it is justice which propagates the problem and ensures that it will be repeated for generations.

    As registered sex offenders, these two men will never work meaningfully in their long lives to come. They will marry women who will support them and their children at near-poverty levels. They will be not be permitted to live in most parts of most cities. Their children will be disadvantaged because of the crimes of their fathers, and that will render the children susceptible to crime (as both victims and perpetrators) themselves.

    We have a tendency to "solve" problems in America by making the situation worse for everyone.

  8. #8

    Re: Guilt verdict in the Steubenville rape(?) case

    My take is that while there was a crime committed, does it warrant these young men being ruined forever. They were drunk as well. They were suffering from diminished capacity as well. Most jurisdictions allow people to get out of perfectly legal contracts when performed under diminished capacity. No one disputes the fact that their behavior was despicable. Was their behavior a result of diminished capacity? Had they acted in a similar way when not in diminished capacity?

    There seems to be a knee-jerk reaction about these type things. All would capitulate that the female was in diminished capacity, due to choices she made by imbibing too much alcohol, illegally I might add, to the point of her not being able to give consent. It was inferred that her behavior was absolutely due to diminished capacity. What I would like to know is had this female exhibited this same type behavior when not inebriated?

    There seems to be more here than is being related by the media. I am thinking this smells suspiciously like a regret or revenge rape charge. O wait there was no actual rape.
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    Re: Guilt verdict in the Steubenville rape(?) case

    Quote Originally Posted by Durango95 View Post
    My take is that while there was a crime committed, does it warrant these young men being ruined forever.
    No, it warrants them being torn to pieces by an angry crowd. But a lifetime of dreams turned to dust is the second best thing as far as I am concerned.

    Quote Originally Posted by Durango95 View Post
    They were drunk as well. They were suffering from diminished capacity as well. Most jurisdictions allow people to get out of perfectly legal contracts when performed under diminished capacity. No one disputes the fact that their behavior was despicable. Was their behavior a result of diminished capacity? Had they acted in a similar way when not in diminished capacity?

    There seems to be a knee-jerk reaction about these type things. All would capitulate that the female was in diminished capacity, due to choices she made by imbibing too much alcohol, illegally I might add, to the point of her not being able to give consent. It was inferred that her behavior was absolutely due to diminished capacity. What I would like to know is had this female exhibited this same type behavior when not inebriated?
    Interesting that "they were drunk, the poor dears, they didn't know what they were doing!", yet "the bitch was drunk ILLEGALLY! She was asking for it!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Durango95 View Post
    There seems to be more here than is being related by the media. I am thinking this smells suspiciously like a regret or revenge rape charge. O wait there was no actual rape.
    This is disgusting beyond words. Don't you have any dignity?

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    Re: Guilt verdict in the Steubenville rape(?) case

    Giancarlo - being drunk isn't "diminished capacity" legally it's "under the influence." You have a mitigating circumstance when a perpetrator is legally mentally impaired - that's diminished capacity, whereas being drunk is no legal excuse for anything at all.
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  11. #11

    Re: Guilt verdict in the Steubenville rape(?) case

    Under the influence is within the purview of diminished capacity in many jurisdictions. Diminished capacity means mental impairment and not exclusively illness, presenting medical or brain trauma. The ingestion of ethanol impairs the mental capability of humans.

    The reason diminished capacity defenses in this particular instance do not work is the variable of choice. One can choose to drink ethanol and get behind the wheel of a car and potentially harm someone. One can choose to drink ethanol and "finger" an individual of the opposite gender who also choose to drink ethanol.

    If you take away the poor choice of the profuse consumption of ethanol, what is the behavior of the parties in question in the normal course of a day. That would be a more cogent standard. Were these young men just sleazy guys looking to exploit any random female? Was this female the school slut that just got a little more booze than she should have and passed out while engaging in routine behavior in which she often participated?
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    Re: Guilt verdict in the Steubenville rape(?) case

    IF someone is forced to drink alcohol, then I accept that they cannot be held accountable to exercise usual judgment.

    If they drink alcohol voluntarily, they own whatever they do while intoxicated, 100%.

    The only difference I might have with the law is that I believe drunk people can consent to sex, and I believe two drunk people are not raping each other if consent has been given. I believe two drunk people are not raping each other if consent was given but one or both of them don't remember. I know my guy and I sometimes enjoy having sex after wine, and it is totally proper and appropriate.

    However none of that seems to apply here.

    We have an admission of photos being deliberately taken of someone putting his fingers in her vagina, and nothing to indicate she was hoping for that to happen or even particularly aware of it. When your defence is "Sorry…we deleted the photos! Isn't that good enough?" well give me a break..
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    Re: Guilt verdict in the Steubenville rape(?) case

    Quote Originally Posted by Durango95 View Post
    Under the influence is within the purview of diminished capacity in many jurisdictions. Diminished capacity means mental impairment and not exclusively illness, presenting medical or brain trauma. The ingestion of ethanol impairs the mental capability of humans.

    The reason diminished capacity defenses in this particular instance do not work is the variable of choice. One can choose to drink ethanol and get behind the wheel of a car and potentially harm someone. One can choose to drink ethanol and "finger" an individual of the opposite gender who also choose to drink ethanol.

    If you take away the poor choice of the profuse consumption of ethanol, what is the behavior of the parties in question in the normal course of a day. That would be a more cogent standard. Were these young men just sleazy guys looking to exploit any random female? Was this female the school slut that just got a little more booze than she should have and passed out while engaging in routine behavior in which she often participated?
    Bullshit, I know of no jurisdiction that will show leniency because you were drunk - under ANY circumstance (though they might overlook it under Bankside's duress scenario), being drunk can even exacerbate the situation legally in some instances.

    NO where is what you say anything other that your rather transparent spin.
    Last edited by TX-Beau; March 18th, 2013 at 04:33 PM.
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    Re: Guilt verdict in the Steubenville rape(?) case

    All you are trying to do is make excuses for the rapists.

    Strange.
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  15. #15

    Re: Guilt verdict in the Steubenville rape(?) case

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    IF someone is forced to drink alcohol, then I accept that they cannot be held accountable to exercise usual judgment.

    If they drink alcohol voluntarily, they own whatever they do while intoxicated, 100%.

    The only difference I might have with the law is that I believe drunk people can consent to sex, and I believe two drunk people are not raping each other if consent has been given. I believe two drunk people are not raping each other if consent was given but one or both of them don't remember. I know my guy and I sometimes enjoy having sex after wine, and it is totally proper and appropriate.

    However none of that seems to apply here.

    We have an admission of photos being deliberately taken of someone putting his fingers in her vagina, and nothing to indicate she was hoping for that to happen or even particularly aware of it. When your defence is "Sorry…we deleted the photos! Isn't that good enough?" well give me a break..
    I understand what you are saying. There was clearly choice here, on both sides. I am just saying with the clear double standard in society these days for accepting anything a female "victim" says about a rape, how truthful is she being.

    I have four sisters. The one closest in age to me was the school slut. I kicked many a guy's ass about it so I know. She got herself into very similar situations numerous times. Almost all of them she sorely regretted and was very bitter over for years. Well those she could sort of remember. I am just thinking if she had thought to blame someone for her poor choices to make her feel better, she probably would have. Especially if she ruined their life. She still carries grudges against guys she did in high school.
    Last edited by Durango95; March 18th, 2013 at 04:41 PM.
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    Re: Guilt verdict in the Steubenville rape(?) case

    Quote Originally Posted by Durango95 View Post
    I understand what you are saying. There was clearly choice here, on both sides. I am just saying with the clear double standard in society these days for accepting anything a female "victim" says about a rape, how truthful is she being.*

    I have four sisters. The one closest in age to me was the school slut. I kicked many a guy's ass about it so I know. She got herself into very similar situations numerous times. Almost all of them she sorely regretted and was very bitter over for years. Well those she could sort of remember. I am just thinking if she had thought to blame someone for her poor choices to make her feel better, she probably would have. Especially if she ruined their life. She still carries grudges against guys she did in high school.
    So, there was no rape because your sister was a slut?

    ?

    That is not reason, that is - I don't know what that is. It doesn't matter what the girl was, they are responsible for what they did PERIOD.

    Why were you supposedly running around kicking the guy's asses when it was your sister was the slut? Shouldn't you have been beating her?

    THAT looks like a clear double standard - too bad I don't believe you.
    Last edited by TX-Beau; March 18th, 2013 at 04:46 PM.
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    Re: Guilt verdict in the Steubenville rape(?) case

    Quote Originally Posted by Durango95 View Post
    I understand what you are saying. There was clearly choice here, on both sides. I am just saying with the clear double standard in society these days for accepting anything a female "victim" says about a rape, how truthful is she being.

    I have four sisters. The one closest in age to me was the school slut. I kicked many a guy's ass about it so I know. She got herself into very similar situations numerous times. Almost all of them she sorely regretted and was very bitter over for years. Well those she could sort of remember. I am just thinking if she had thought to blame someone for her poor choices to make her feel better, she probably would have. Especially if she ruined their life. She still carries grudges against guys she did in high school.
    I agree with you that "regret" is not the same as "rape." But I accept that this female was being truthful. She had the advantage of photographs to back up her position.
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  18. #18

    Re: Guilt verdict in the Steubenville rape(?) case

    Things I'm wondering...

    Where were these kids parents? This happened in the middle of the night and the kids has access to alcohol.

    Why are they making such a big deal about these boys being football players? Does that make them special? I'm well aware of hero worship of athletes but some reporters are talking more about their sports and what positions they played instead of what the victim went through.

    All too often these football player rapists get shrugged off with a "boys will be boys" and when they actually have to pay for their crimes it becomes headline news.

    Now the victim is receiving death threats because she's being blamed for ruining the rapist's lives. Disgusting.

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    Re: Guilt verdict in the Steubenville rape(?) case

    Yes well the misogynistic attitudes of some of the posters didn't come out of a vacuum.

    She was asking for it ya know, the slut, what did she expect taunting those poor, innocent dears with her filthy cunt.
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    Re: Guilt verdict in the Steubenville rape(?) case

    If only the girl had more guns...
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  21. #21

    Re: Guilt verdict in the Steubenville rape(?) case

    The one and two year sentences were not long enough.

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    Re: Guilt verdict in the Steubenville rape(?) case

    I agree with Durango. It seems to me that their "crime" is totally overblown, and the whole thing is one of those typical moral panics that Americans experience every second year. The boys' behaviour was despicable but the girl wasn't hurt, wasn't fucked and she was responsible for the situation. She lost her consciousness by drinking vodka in a party full of drunken guys. That's not exactly the code of behaviour for the girl scouts. You shouldn't send into prison everybody who once took part a wild teenager party.

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    Re: Guilt verdict in the Steubenville rape(?) case

    Quote Originally Posted by fjancsi80 View Post
    I agree with Durango. It seems to me that their "crime" is totally overblown, and the whole thing is one of those typical moral panics that Americans experience every second year. The boys' behaviour was despicable but the girl wasn't hurt, wasn't fucked and she was responsible for the situation. She lost her consciousness by drinking vodka in a party full of drunken guys. That's not exactly the code of behaviour for the girl scouts. You shouldn't send into prison everybody who once took part a wild teenager party.
    Anything you could say to slam her can be said equally for the boys. And the "she was getting drunk at a party, she should have known she was gonna get raped" argument is monstrous. You are basically saying "these things happen, it's girls' fault for not protecting themselves better." Sorry, doesn't work that way. There's no "moral panic" about punishing rapists.
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    Re: Guilt verdict in the Steubenville rape(?) case

    Are people seriously blaming the victim in this case?

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    Re: Guilt verdict in the Steubenville rape(?) case

    It was her twat that caused all the problems. Shameless whore, waving it at fine young gentlemen like that. What is wrong with her?

    LOL
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    Re: Guilt verdict in the Steubenville rape(?) case

    She wasn't raped in the true sense of the word. Yes, I know that according to the legal definition it was rape but in fact she was mocked and humiliated when she was drunken and asleep. The same thing happens between guys in dorms and parties very often. I wouldn't send into prison somebody who yanked down the boxers of his sleeping roommate, took nude pictures about him and grabbed his cock because he tought it "funny". This behaviour is immature and rude but not criminal. And in this case I feel more sympathy with the guys whose life was wrecked by this harsh sentence than the girl who will forget the whole thing in two weeks.

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    Re: Guilt verdict in the Steubenville rape(?) case

    Quote Originally Posted by fjancsi80 View Post
    She wasn't raped in the true sense of the word. Yes, I know that according to the legal definition it was rape but in fact she was mocked and humiliated when she was drunken and asleep. The same thing happens between guys in dorms and parties very often. I wouldn't send into prison somebody who yanked down the boxers of his sleeping roommate, took nude pictures about him and grabbed his cock because he tought it "funny". This behaviour is immature and rude but not criminal. And in this case I feel more sympathy with the guys whose life was wrecked by this harsh sentence than the girl who will forget the whole thing in two weeks.
    What guys do to each other in dorms by the way is just as much assault, though since there is rarely penetration, it isn't really rape most of the time. However, sometimes it is. The fact is that it's considered part of the "fun", and there's also a lot of shame, so they don't think of reporting it. When you stick a finger in a girl's vagina against her will, that's rape. Sorry if it's not "rape enough" for you.
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    Re: Guilt verdict in the Steubenville rape(?) case

    No wonder that the incarceration rate in the United States is the highest in the world. You send almost seven times as many people into prison than Europeans. Probably people should be given a second chance or some other kind of punishment which doesn't ruin their whole life.

  29. #29

    Re: Guilt verdict in the Steubenville rape(?) case

    Quote Originally Posted by fjancsi80 View Post
    She wasn't raped in the true sense of the word. Yes, I know that according to the legal definition it was rape but in fact she was mocked and humiliated when she was drunken and asleep. The same thing happens between guys in dorms and parties very often. I wouldn't send into prison somebody who yanked down the boxers of his sleeping roommate, took nude pictures about him and grabbed his cock because he tought it "funny". This behaviour is immature and rude but not criminal. And in this case I feel more sympathy with the guys whose life was wrecked by this harsh sentence than the girl who will forget the whole thing in two weeks.
    Exactly and more than likely she'll be at a similar party in the same situation. I know her kind. I have one in my family.
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    Re: Guilt verdict in the Steubenville rape(?) case

    Quote Originally Posted by fjancsi80 View Post
    No wonder that the incarceration rate in the United States is the highest in the world. You send almost seven times as many people into prison than Europeans. Probably people should be given a second chance or some other kind of punishment which doesn't ruin their whole life.
    Rapists don't deserve a second chance. Also, I am European. Also, Europe doesn't have the sport-fetish rape culture this continent has. Basically, you don't know what you're talking about.
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    Re: Guilt verdict in the Steubenville rape(?) case

    Quote Originally Posted by Durango95 View Post
    Exactly and more than likely she'll be at a similar party in the same situation. I know her kind. I have one in my family.
    Project much?

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    Re: Guilt verdict in the Steubenville rape(?) case

    Quote Originally Posted by fjancsi80 View Post
    She wasn't raped in the true sense of the word. Yes, I know that according to the legal definition it was rape but in fact she was mocked and humiliated when she was drunken and asleep. The same thing happens between guys in dorms and parties very often. I wouldn't send into prison somebody who yanked down the boxers of his sleeping roommate, took nude pictures about him and grabbed his cock because he thought it "funny". This behaviour is immature and rude but not criminal. And in this case I feel more sympathy with the guys whose life was wrecked by this harsh sentence than the girl who will forget the whole thing in two weeks.
    (emphasis mine)

    Well I don't know what life is like in Hungary but over here, that is criminal behavior as well as immature and you can go to prison for it. It's sexual assault. Anyway our prisons are full of drug offenders not rapists which is a whole other discussion, neither do YOU know what she's feeling or what she's forgetting that's just you and your attitude YOU are forcing on the situation because of your own issues.

    12 people who heard the case thought they were guilty, who exactly are you to dispute that? What do you know to be so cocky about what she's feeling and what she's forgetting?

    [Text: Removed]
    Last edited by opinterph; March 21st, 2013 at 06:54 PM. Reason: removed interpersonal commentary; excessive baiting
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    Re: Guilt verdict in the Steubenville rape(?) case

    There was no jury in the case only one judge. And I still can't get over the fact that she wasn't fucked at all and she behaved irresponsibly. I don't say that the boys don't deserve any punishment. I think that the sentence is way to harsh regarding the circumstances. I tried to point at the fact that nobody regards the similar behaviour between guys a crime. I fact there are threads on this site with tons of pictures of naked, sleeping, drunken guys mocked or photographed without their knowledge. Nobody is terribly upset about them. I don't believe that girls are so special that they need more protection than males.

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    Re: Guilt verdict in the Steubenville rape(?) case

    Quote Originally Posted by fjancsi80 View Post
    There was no jury in the case only one judge. And I still can't get over the fact that she wasn't fucked at all and she behaved irresponsibly. I don't say that the boys don't deserve any punishment. I think that the sentence is way to harsh regarding the circumstances. I tried to point at the fact that nobody regards the similar behaviour between guys a crime. I fact there are threads on this site with tons of pictures of naked, sleeping, drunken guys mocked or photographed without their knowledge. Nobody is terribly upset about them. I don't believe that girls are so special that they need more protection than males.
    How do you know what "nobody" is upset about? You know fuck all about any of it. ALL you are doing is projecting a misogynist excuse onto something no one in here is knowledgeable about.
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    Re: Guilt verdict in the Steubenville rape(?) case

    And yes, when you molest guys, they get pissed off, but a whole lot of them don't report it because they don't want to be seen as emasculated victims.

    I will give you that a lot of gay men fantasize about rape and molestation of straight guys, DOESN'T make it right or harmless either.
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    Re: Guilt verdict in the Steubenville rape(?) case

    A video with two drunk guys swinging to and fro the body of a third one (who is sleeping drunk) wouldn't even be banned by youtube. Here it was presented like a criminal proof. I am not misogynist but I don' like double standards and hysteria. And yes some people certainly upset about "straight guys partying" threads here but most users view them as harmless. At least they are not yelling and calling the police.

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    Re: Guilt verdict in the Steubenville rape(?) case

    Yeah 'cause all those straight guys "partying" are poking their fingers up each other's asses all the time, it's just good clean fun.

    Please. They raped her, by the legal definition, by the ethical definition, if she was a guy (and in fact cases where guys have done similar things with foreign objects to other guys they get no different) it would be the same.
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    Re: Guilt verdict in the Steubenville rape(?) case

    Quote Originally Posted by fjancsi80 View Post
    There was no jury in the case only one judge. And I still can't get over the fact that she wasn't fucked at all and she behaved irresponsibly. I don't say that the boys don't deserve any punishment. I think that the sentence is way to harsh regarding the circumstances. I tried to point at the fact that nobody regards the similar behaviour between guys a crime. I fact there are threads on this site with tons of pictures of naked, sleeping, drunken guys mocked or photographed without their knowledge. Nobody is terribly upset about them. I don't believe that girls are so special that they need more protection than males.
    As a matter of biological fact, girls DO need more protection than males. Also, circumstances are not the same, because in most of the cases you describe, boys aren't sexual victims of other boys, just of pranks. And the girl WAS "fucked". Just because it was with a finger, changes absolutely nothing.
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    Re: Guilt verdict in the Steubenville rape(?) case

    Quote Originally Posted by palemale View Post
    I had a friend once who fucked his gf when he was so drunk, he didn't remember fucking her. She was pissed off he didn't remember. I had had enough to drink a few times in my youth where I didn't remember everything from the night before, and assumed I fell asleep and passed out, only to learn that I had been up and about the entire time (but I never sexually assaulted anyone). Literally, a few hours were blacked out. If both perpetrator and victim are too drunk to give consent, then ultimately who is the guilty party?
    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    The posting of pictures on the internet show they had more than enough capacity to know the difference between right and wrong. If they were so drunk they probably wouldn't have been able to post photos. I think they didn't black out or what not.
    What palemale posted above shows your error: it is not rare for people who are drunk to perform quite skilled activities, including driving home, parking, engaging a home security system, and going to bed -- all while blacked out and not remembering it. At the same time, it's well known that being drunk removes a lot of inhibitions. One only has to combine the two.

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    There is another problem with these cases, and that is that the punishment destroys the lives of the perpetrators. While some may argue that is justice, it is justice which propagates the problem and ensures that it will be repeated for generations.

    As registered sex offenders, these two men will never work meaningfully in their long lives to come. They will marry women who will support them and their children at near-poverty levels. They will be not be permitted to live in most parts of most cities. Their children will be disadvantaged because of the crimes of their fathers, and that will render the children susceptible to crime (as both victims and perpetrators) themselves.

    We have a tendency to "solve" problems in America by making the situation worse for everyone.
    I caught on the radio last week a discussion of a study showing that sex offender registration laws actually serve to drive many offenders to do it again, by making their lives so miserable they see no point not risking prison. And when laws read in a way that make the adult or male guilty even when unconscious or drugged (or worse, when they can be read so as to make an adult innocently nude in his own bedroom at home when an underage criminal breaks in "guilty" of sex abuse!), that's not hard to understand.

    We have to ditch the Puritan heritage of punishment, punishment, and retribution.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Guilt verdict in the Steubenville rape(?) case

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyBob View Post
    Things I'm wondering...

    Where were these kids parents?
    Or any responsible adult, for that matter.

    We have obscenely outdated laws about alcohol that come from America's Puritan heritage on the one side and the spirit of the Inquisition on the other, polished with the infantile belief that passing a law telling people to not do things will change their behavior. What those laws accomplish in actual fact is get thousands of teens killed each year, and hundreds (at least) sexually assaulted or abused for the very reason that they are by law required to drink where there is no responsible supervision. A friend here still has moments of paralyzing grief years after his only son was killed in a driving accident that wouldn't have happened if not for the law that said teens can drink only on their parents' property: several families would have happily hosted the party in question for the kids, and provided supervision to keep people safe, but as is so often the case the law penalizes those who try to do good -- so the kids were out on their own, and had to go to a place only poorly accessible, and as a result when a sudden return was required there was an accident.

    The blood, and the rapes and the rest, are on the hands of the neanderthal legislators who can't wrap their heads around the fact that guidance and education and nurturing beat punishment and shaming all but one time out of a million. These boys should spend time in a work facility where they can continue schooling, and the legislators that set up this scenario -- including the idiocy of counting putting a finger in a vagina the same as full-scale intercourse! -- should go to prison along with all the adults who propagate the notion that it is manly to drink and to make sexual "conquests".

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Guilt verdict in the Steubenville rape(?) case

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    If only the girl had more guns...
    What use would an unloaded and disabled firearm have done anyone?

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Guilt verdict in the Steubenville rape(?) case

    Quote Originally Posted by fjancsi80 View Post
    No wonder that the incarceration rate in the United States is the highest in the world. You send almost seven times as many people into prison than Europeans. Probably people should be given a second chance or some other kind of punishment which doesn't ruin their whole life.


    I keep wondering when the US will crawl out of the eighteenth century.

    Then I remember how many Republicans we have, and nearly as many bloodthirsty Democrats filled with the Puritan fervor to PUNISH! PUNISH! PUNISH!!!


    Last edited by Kulindahr; March 20th, 2013 at 01:04 PM.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post



    I keep wondering when the US will crawl out of the eighteenth century.

    Then I remember how many Republicans we have, and nearly as many bloodthirsty Democrats filled with the Puritan fervor to PUNISH! PUNISH! PUNISH!!!


    You know, were it about any other type of crime - even murder - I'd be with you on this. Criminal justice should deal a lot more with reparation and a lot less with punishment. But when it's about pedophilia or rape, I get bloodthirsty. They should suffer for this and it would be just that they do.
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    Re: Guilt verdict in the Steubenville rape(?) case

    So you think murder is less serious than rape even this "soft rape". Had the girl been shot in the head instead of being fingered? That's crazy. We live in different worlds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fjancsi80 View Post
    So you think murder is less serious than rape even this "soft rape". Had the girl been shot in the head instead of being fingered? That's crazy. We live in different worlds.
    It's not less serious. It's more serious. But it's less disgusting to me personally. It's a matter of personal feelings, not some objective scale of "seriousness".

    And there's no such thing as "soft rape".
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    Re: Guilt verdict in the Steubenville rape(?) case

    Roylo is right. Gender had nothing to do with it. Rape is rape.

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    Re: Guilt verdict in the Steubenville rape(?) case

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    You know, were it about any other type of crime - even murder - I'd be with you on this. Criminal justice should deal a lot more with reparation and a lot less with punishment. But when it's about pedophilia or rape, I get bloodthirsty. They should suffer for this and it would be just that they do.
    A finger in a vagina is deserving of a life sentence to no opportunities and a likelihood of being assaulted any time someone with a gripe decides to go on the 'net and look up someone to beat up? or even someone to kill?

    And it's worse than murder?


    We used to understand that kids are kids and their judgment sucks. To treat them as though they should be saints before they've had much life experience and while their brains are in the process of rewiring themselves is foolish; to treat them that way when they have been sentenced to suffer from a lack of guidance or mentoring is sadisticly Puritan, worthy of the Salem witch trials at their most vile.

    We should be Quakers, not Puritans. Quakers who held that it is God's task to punish, that ours is to correct and instruct and reform tried to get this country shifted from prisons to penitentiaries -- places to be penitent, to learn from mistakes, to reform -- but that failed in the face of a virulent self-righteousness that began arriving on the Mayflower and has infected the body politic with a hatred of their fellow man is he so much as steps across whatever line is considered most dastardly in a particular generation. And it is hate, in both attitude and action, because it's a willingness to dial down the value of a human life directly to zero because of what in many cases are psychologically and socially predictable (and socially generated) mistakes. These two were acting out a role that is held up as "manly" by everything from movies to cartoons to professional sports -- so where is the punishment for those who taught them?


    There should be no sex offender registration for these two, and no jail time. They should go to a work camp where they can learn civilized behavior and self-control (the real ingredient lacking from the "macho" image they learned). After two years of work camp they should be required to take jobs where they can continue to learn those lessons, under continued supervision, for two or three years. Then we might get back a pair of citizens who understand what it actually means to be human, not more trash who have learned to hate government and who will be highly likely to pass on an attitude that will contribute to a perpetuation of the same "culture" and repetition of the same behavior.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Guilt verdict in the Steubenville rape(?) case

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    And there's no such thing as "soft rape".
    You and the denizens of FOX network are so alike: no shades of grey, no hint of discrimination between degrees of offense.

    A law that says that sticking a finger (or a carrot) in a vagina is no different than banging away to orgasm is an indication of intellectual laziness on the part of those who wrote it. Buying into it indicates the same among those who do so, along with a probable dose of despite for one's fellow man.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Guilt verdict in the Steubenville rape(?) case

    I don't think which appendage used by the assailant is relevant compared to where the appendage is put. I don't get why people keep bringing that up.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Re: Guilt verdict in the Steubenville rape(?) case

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    You and the denizens of FOX network are so alike: no shades of grey, no hint of discrimination between degrees of offense.

    A law that says that sticking a finger (or a carrot) in a vagina is no different than banging away to orgasm is an indication of intellectual laziness on the part of those who wrote it. Buying into it indicates the same among those who do so, along with a probable dose of despite for one's fellow man.
    No, it's not a sign of intellectual laziness, it's putting the victim's dignity before technicalities. I know it's hard for you to sympathize with a drunk girl, but no, we're not gonna pin that to the Evils of The System. Two underage rapists fucked up and paid the price. That's all there is to it.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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