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  1. #51
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    Re: Guilt verdict in the Steubenville rape(?) case

    Quote Originally Posted by palemale View Post
    I had a friend once who fucked his gf when he was so drunk, he didn't remember fucking her. She was pissed off he didn't remember. I had had enough to drink a few times in my youth where I didn't remember everything from the night before, and assumed I fell asleep and passed out, only to learn that I had been up and about the entire time (but I never sexually assaulted anyone). Literally, a few hours were blacked out. If both perpetrator and victim are too drunk to give consent, then ultimately who is the guilty party?
    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    The posting of pictures on the internet show they had more than enough capacity to know the difference between right and wrong. If they were so drunk they probably wouldn't have been able to post photos. I think they didn't black out or what not.
    What palemale posted above shows your error: it is not rare for people who are drunk to perform quite skilled activities, including driving home, parking, engaging a home security system, and going to bed -- all while blacked out and not remembering it. At the same time, it's well known that being drunk removes a lot of inhibitions. One only has to combine the two.

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    There is another problem with these cases, and that is that the punishment destroys the lives of the perpetrators. While some may argue that is justice, it is justice which propagates the problem and ensures that it will be repeated for generations.

    As registered sex offenders, these two men will never work meaningfully in their long lives to come. They will marry women who will support them and their children at near-poverty levels. They will be not be permitted to live in most parts of most cities. Their children will be disadvantaged because of the crimes of their fathers, and that will render the children susceptible to crime (as both victims and perpetrators) themselves.

    We have a tendency to "solve" problems in America by making the situation worse for everyone.
    I caught on the radio last week a discussion of a study showing that sex offender registration laws actually serve to drive many offenders to do it again, by making their lives so miserable they see no point not risking prison. And when laws read in a way that make the adult or male guilty even when unconscious or drugged (or worse, when they can be read so as to make an adult innocently nude in his own bedroom at home when an underage criminal breaks in "guilty" of sex abuse!), that's not hard to understand.

    We have to ditch the Puritan heritage of punishment, punishment, and retribution.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  2. #52
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    Re: Guilt verdict in the Steubenville rape(?) case

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyBob View Post
    Things I'm wondering...

    Where were these kids parents?
    Or any responsible adult, for that matter.

    We have obscenely outdated laws about alcohol that come from America's Puritan heritage on the one side and the spirit of the Inquisition on the other, polished with the infantile belief that passing a law telling people to not do things will change their behavior. What those laws accomplish in actual fact is get thousands of teens killed each year, and hundreds (at least) sexually assaulted or abused for the very reason that they are by law required to drink where there is no responsible supervision. A friend here still has moments of paralyzing grief years after his only son was killed in a driving accident that wouldn't have happened if not for the law that said teens can drink only on their parents' property: several families would have happily hosted the party in question for the kids, and provided supervision to keep people safe, but as is so often the case the law penalizes those who try to do good -- so the kids were out on their own, and had to go to a place only poorly accessible, and as a result when a sudden return was required there was an accident.

    The blood, and the rapes and the rest, are on the hands of the neanderthal legislators who can't wrap their heads around the fact that guidance and education and nurturing beat punishment and shaming all but one time out of a million. These boys should spend time in a work facility where they can continue schooling, and the legislators that set up this scenario -- including the idiocy of counting putting a finger in a vagina the same as full-scale intercourse! -- should go to prison along with all the adults who propagate the notion that it is manly to drink and to make sexual "conquests".

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  3. #53
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    Re: Guilt verdict in the Steubenville rape(?) case

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    If only the girl had more guns...
    What use would an unloaded and disabled firearm have done anyone?

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  4. #54
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    Re: Guilt verdict in the Steubenville rape(?) case

    Quote Originally Posted by fjancsi80 View Post
    No wonder that the incarceration rate in the United States is the highest in the world. You send almost seven times as many people into prison than Europeans. Probably people should be given a second chance or some other kind of punishment which doesn't ruin their whole life.


    I keep wondering when the US will crawl out of the eighteenth century.

    Then I remember how many Republicans we have, and nearly as many bloodthirsty Democrats filled with the Puritan fervor to PUNISH! PUNISH! PUNISH!!!


    Last edited by Kulindahr; March 20th, 2013 at 01:04 PM.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  5. #55
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Guilt verdict in the Steubenville rape(?) case

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    What palemale posted above shows your error: it is not rare for people who are drunk to perform quite skilled activities, including driving home, parking, engaging a home security system, and going to bed -- all while blacked out and not remembering it. At the same time, it's well known that being drunk removes a lot of inhibitions. One only has to combine the two.
    Being drunk does not excuse their actions and they are fully facing justice. I don't believe they were that drunk and they knwe what they were doing. And I don't believe they were blacked out either from what I've read in this case. That's an immaterial claim.

    And if we want to reduce the prison population, perhaps legalizing marijuana could be a start? This case however was about a rape and had to be punished, and would be punished all the same in Europe.
    Last edited by GiancarloC; March 20th, 2013 at 01:10 PM.

  6. #56
    Impish and Mercurial Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post



    I keep wondering when the US will crawl out of the eighteenth century.

    Then I remember how many Republicans we have, and nearly as many bloodthirsty Democrats filled with the Puritan fervor to PUNISH! PUNISH! PUNISH!!!


    You know, were it about any other type of crime - even murder - I'd be with you on this. Criminal justice should deal a lot more with reparation and a lot less with punishment. But when it's about pedophilia or rape, I get bloodthirsty. They should suffer for this and it would be just that they do.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  7. #57
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    Re: Guilt verdict in the Steubenville rape(?) case

    So you think murder is less serious than rape even this "soft rape". Had the girl been shot in the head instead of being fingered? That's crazy. We live in different worlds.

  8. #58
    Impish and Mercurial Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fjancsi80 View Post
    So you think murder is less serious than rape even this "soft rape". Had the girl been shot in the head instead of being fingered? That's crazy. We live in different worlds.
    It's not less serious. It's more serious. But it's less disgusting to me personally. It's a matter of personal feelings, not some objective scale of "seriousness".

    And there's no such thing as "soft rape".
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  9. #59
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    Re: Guilt verdict in the Steubenville rape(?) case

    Roylo is right. Gender had nothing to do with it. Rape is rape.

  10. #60
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    Re: Guilt verdict in the Steubenville rape(?) case

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    You know, were it about any other type of crime - even murder - I'd be with you on this. Criminal justice should deal a lot more with reparation and a lot less with punishment. But when it's about pedophilia or rape, I get bloodthirsty. They should suffer for this and it would be just that they do.
    A finger in a vagina is deserving of a life sentence to no opportunities and a likelihood of being assaulted any time someone with a gripe decides to go on the 'net and look up someone to beat up? or even someone to kill?

    And it's worse than murder?


    We used to understand that kids are kids and their judgment sucks. To treat them as though they should be saints before they've had much life experience and while their brains are in the process of rewiring themselves is foolish; to treat them that way when they have been sentenced to suffer from a lack of guidance or mentoring is sadisticly Puritan, worthy of the Salem witch trials at their most vile.

    We should be Quakers, not Puritans. Quakers who held that it is God's task to punish, that ours is to correct and instruct and reform tried to get this country shifted from prisons to penitentiaries -- places to be penitent, to learn from mistakes, to reform -- but that failed in the face of a virulent self-righteousness that began arriving on the Mayflower and has infected the body politic with a hatred of their fellow man is he so much as steps across whatever line is considered most dastardly in a particular generation. And it is hate, in both attitude and action, because it's a willingness to dial down the value of a human life directly to zero because of what in many cases are psychologically and socially predictable (and socially generated) mistakes. These two were acting out a role that is held up as "manly" by everything from movies to cartoons to professional sports -- so where is the punishment for those who taught them?


    There should be no sex offender registration for these two, and no jail time. They should go to a work camp where they can learn civilized behavior and self-control (the real ingredient lacking from the "macho" image they learned). After two years of work camp they should be required to take jobs where they can continue to learn those lessons, under continued supervision, for two or three years. Then we might get back a pair of citizens who understand what it actually means to be human, not more trash who have learned to hate government and who will be highly likely to pass on an attitude that will contribute to a perpetuation of the same "culture" and repetition of the same behavior.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  11. #61
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    Re: Guilt verdict in the Steubenville rape(?) case

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    And there's no such thing as "soft rape".
    You and the denizens of FOX network are so alike: no shades of grey, no hint of discrimination between degrees of offense.

    A law that says that sticking a finger (or a carrot) in a vagina is no different than banging away to orgasm is an indication of intellectual laziness on the part of those who wrote it. Buying into it indicates the same among those who do so, along with a probable dose of despite for one's fellow man.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  12. #62
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: Guilt verdict in the Steubenville rape(?) case

    I don't think which appendage used by the assailant is relevant compared to where the appendage is put. I don't get why people keep bringing that up.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  13. #63
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    Re: Guilt verdict in the Steubenville rape(?) case

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    You and the denizens of FOX network are so alike: no shades of grey, no hint of discrimination between degrees of offense.

    A law that says that sticking a finger (or a carrot) in a vagina is no different than banging away to orgasm is an indication of intellectual laziness on the part of those who wrote it. Buying into it indicates the same among those who do so, along with a probable dose of despite for one's fellow man.
    No, it's not a sign of intellectual laziness, it's putting the victim's dignity before technicalities. I know it's hard for you to sympathize with a drunk girl, but no, we're not gonna pin that to the Evils of The System. Two underage rapists fucked up and paid the price. That's all there is to it.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  14. #64
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Guilt verdict in the Steubenville rape(?) case

    Quote Originally Posted by fjancsi80 View Post
    So you think murder is less serious than rape even this "soft rape". Had the girl been shot in the head instead of being fingered? That's crazy. We live in different worlds.
    Rape is rape. And this is fully punishable under the law. It would also be prosecuted under the civil law system. Countries like Sweden have tougher anti-rape laws than the United States by the way!

  15. #65
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Guilt verdict in the Steubenville rape(?) case

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    We should be Quakers, not Puritans. Quakers who held that it is God's task to punish, that ours is to correct and instruct and reform tried to get this country shifted from prisons to penitentiaries -- places to be penitent, to learn from mistakes, to reform -- but that failed in the face of a virulent self-righteousness that began arriving on the Mayflower and has infected the body politic with a hatred of their fellow man is he so much as steps across whatever line is considered most dastardly in a particular generation. And it is hate, in both attitude and action, because it's a willingness to dial down the value of a human life directly to zero because of what in many cases are psychologically and socially predictable (and socially generated) mistakes. These two were acting out a role that is held up as "manly" by everything from movies to cartoons to professional sports -- so where is the punishment for those who taught them?
    Ridiculous. Even in the Civil law system in Europe stiff punishments are past down towards sexual crimes. Stop trying to skirt the issues. As far as Puritans versus Quakers... NONE OF THE ABOVE. We should maintain a secular approach to the law... and not have those religious ideas part of the legal system. Civil Law has its roots in Roman Law...

    No jail time and no sex offender registration? Even in Europe they would disagree with that one. I guess some want to be au contrarian. I am NOT holding a Puritanical view of punishment. I am a SECULARIST and even I recognize the need for a prison sentence in the charge of rape.

    So lets cut the intellectual laziness...

  16. #66
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    Re: Guilt verdict in the Steubenville rape(?) case

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Ridiculous. Even in the Civil law system in Europe stiff punishments are past down towards sexual crimes. Stop trying to skirt the issues. As far as Puritans versus Quakers... NONE OF THE ABOVE. We should maintain a secular approach to the law... and not have those religious ideas part of the legal system. Civil Law has its roots in Roman Law...

    No jail time and no sex offender registration? Even in Europe they would disagree with that one. I guess some want to be au contrarian. I am NOT holding a Puritanical view of punishment. I am a SECULARIST and even I recognize the need for a prison sentence in the charge of rape.
    We don't have a "secular approach to the law", we have vindictiveness arisen from a Puritan heritage.

    I want nothing of Roman law, which lacks the principle of innocent until proven guilty. The civil law of free people stems from the British Isles, which recognize that people have rights and are not the property of the government.

    A secular view of the law would evaluate the blame of each party -- US law does not, as it is based on a very right-wing religious black-or-white approach to things. In this case, blame lies everywhere, starting with parents and a society who taught these kids that such behavior is manly. And a secular view of the law would reject sending kids to "criminal school", which is what jail serves as: a place where they can learn to think in terms of what they can get away with rather than in terms of responsibility, and lessons in how to commit a whole variety of crimes and get away with them. Our jail system is a very effective mechanism for increasing the rate of petty crime, because it's a training ground in regarding breaking the law as a game and in how to get away with it. A secular law system would aim at reducing crime -- this attitude of vengeance you revel in does not.

    BTW, [Text: Removed] your casual dismissal of everything Quaker throws out all concepts of human dignity and worth, leaving an approach to law that regards human beings as objects, nothing more.
    Last edited by opinterph; March 21st, 2013 at 06:53 PM. Reason: removed interpersonal commentary

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  17. #67
    Suck my dick, Scalia! FuryOfFirestorm's Avatar
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    Re: Guilt verdict in the Steubenville rape(?) case

    What is up with this "Puritan" bullshit? Our society is much more sexually open that we were 50 years ago, and regardless of the sexual attitudes of our era, taking advantage of an unconscious minor and inserting anything in her vagina without her consent or knowledge is not okay. . Would you be OK if someone shoved a banana up your ass while while you were drunk and put pictures of it on Facebook?

  18. #68
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    Re: Guilt verdict in the Steubenville rape(?) case

    Rape apologists are scum. Just saying.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  19. #69
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Guilt verdict in the Steubenville rape(?) case

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    I want nothing of Roman law, which lacks the principle of innocent until proven guilty. The civil law of free people stems from the British Isles, which recognize that people have rights and are not the property of the government.
    Dicing and splitting language... which is all this post is.

    A secular view of the law would evaluate the blame of each party -- US law does not, as it is based on a very right-wing religious black-or-white approach to things. In this case, blame lies everywhere, starting with parents and a society who taught these kids that such behavior is manly.
    The US law code is based on a secular form, not a religious or right wing religious view. Are the parents and society on trial here? Didn't think so.

    And a secular view of the law would reject sending kids to "criminal school", which is what jail serves as: a place where they can learn to think in terms of what they can get away with rather than in terms of responsibility, and lessons in how to commit a whole variety of crimes and get away with them. Our jail system is a very effective mechanism for increasing the rate of petty crime, because it's a training ground in regarding breaking the law as a game and in how to get away with it. A secular law system would aim at reducing crime -- this attitude of vengeance you revel in does not.
    A secular view would do no such thing. As a secularist I disagree with that viewpoint. Punishment had to occur with regards to this crime because of the nature of the crime. Slapping them on the wrist is inadequate and does not set a sound legal precedent. Notice this view has absolutely nothing to do with religion.

    BTW, your irrational attitude toward religion once again leads you into silliness: your casual dismissal of everything Quaker throws out all concepts of human dignity and worth, leaving an approach to law that regards human beings as objects, nothing more.
    Oh total bullshit. My irrational attitude? I am a SECULARIST. I don't want religion to have anything to do with this. Human dignity and worth... your viewpoints tend to dismiss others quickly and accuse them of wanting to be property of the state. I am not the one who is being irrational. Keep religion out of government.

    And human dignity and worth did not originate with Quaker beliefs, nor are they tied to that belief system. I can be an atheist and a secular and still value human dignity and worth so please don't pass any of those judgments onto me.

    Perhaps one of the most judgmental, lazy responses I've read on here. The basic argument is "my belief system values people more, I don't have any proof... just take my word for it". Same old answer. And keep on alienating others... and see why few on here sympathize with the situation one is in.

    As I am still trying to walk a tight rope here, I will no longer entertain responding to someone who is dismissive and refuses to look at alternate viewpoints with an open mind. Have a nice DAY!
    Last edited by GiancarloC; March 21st, 2013 at 02:00 PM.

  20. #70
    Suck my dick, Scalia! FuryOfFirestorm's Avatar
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    Re: Guilt verdict in the Steubenville rape(?) case

    In the days following the rapes, according to the New York Times, Mays "seemed to try to orchestrate a cover-up, telling a friend, "Just say she came to your house and passed out,"" and pleading with the victim not to press charges

    Source Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steuben...line_of_Events
    Gosh, that sure sounds like that poor little innocent angel knew what he did was wrong!
    Last edited by opinterph; March 21st, 2013 at 06:50 PM. Reason: added quote tags and source link for quoted text; Refer to CE&P Posting Guidelines

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