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  1. #51
    FEAR THE LIBERAL DETENTE! TX-Beau's Avatar
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    Re: First Republican Senator comes out in favor of marriage equality!!!

    Any bets what he'd be saying if the political climate wasn't swinging away from right wing crazy? Even a 'phobe can see the writing on the wall. Honestly, one of the saddest things about our plight is gay people defending and applauding 'phobes who deign to hate us a little less when it suits their politics. Just what kind of defense do we owe to the AUTHOR of DOMA?

    ...but but but he changed his mind!!! YAY BOB!

    Great, I'll forgive him when he can undo the damage he's done. Or hell, even sincerely apologizes for it.
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  2. #52
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    Re: First Republican Senator comes out in favor of marriage equality!!!

    Throw Clinton in there too. I realize he was in a tough spot but his reasons for not vetoing DOMA have come across as hollow.
    As for Portman,whatever we want to say,at least his son is better off then some of the other Republicians that have shared their viewpoints since then.
    Hate to sound like a broken record but for many families,having a child who is gay doesn't change a damn thing.

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    Re: First Republican Senator comes out in favor of marriage equality!!!

    Clinton did far more damage with media deregulation than DOMA. Clinton is responsible for Fox News.
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    Re: First Republican Senator comes out in favor of marriage equality!!!

    Say what you will but he still showed guts. Already the backlash from the Religious Reich is growing and many people have already stated they won't vote for him again.
    He has lost support he will never get back from parts of the base that elected him and he could get primaried. Something he knew when he came out and said what he did.

  5. #55
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    Re: First Republican Senator comes out in favor of marriage equality!!!

    Yeah he should have shown some guts 2 years ago when his son came out. Why is it exactly that we should be championing a guy who did just as much damage as the people who won't "vote" for him now?

    Expedient, is the word that comes to mind, and if te Mittens had won the race, and the polls said something different, where oh where would his contrition be?

    It's very nice he changed his mind, and we will certainly take the suppoirt, but I'll save my praise for people who stuck with us when we actually needed them.
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    Re: First Republican Senator comes out in favor of marriage equality!!!

    Ya know, I am not going to disrespect the people who stood with us when it was monumentally unpopular, and when it was difficult, to fucking fellate some Johnny come lately not so right wingers who would be fucking hating still if they could get away with it.

    If they want to help, let them prove themselves BEFORE I suck that cock.
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  7. #57
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    Re: First Republican Senator comes out in favor of marriage equality!!!

    News became Infotainment when OJ was on trail and it has just gotten worse.
    News was infotainment for a lot longer than that. Hearst and Pulitzer come to mind.

    As usual I'm late to the party, but I have two things on this issue I'd like to add:

    1) For as long as I can remember (which is too long to contemplate) one of the main arguments to convince people to come out is that it's the best way to convince people who otherwise would be homophobic (or indifferent) to support gay rights. Some even went so far as to claim that gay folks had a duty to do so. That the ultimate vindication of this strategy is met with derision is at the very least puzzling.

    2) Vilifying the converted for their former position is a terrible way to run a movement. In fact it may have a chilling effect on others contemplating such a move.

    On a side note: I don't really care what Portman's motivation is. People's motives are opaque and obscure, often even to themselves. To say that conservatives are motivated by this one thing while liberals are motivated by something else is laughingly simplistic. Besides, whether motives are the purest of the pure or the basest of the base, ideas and actions need to be judged on their own merits regardless.
    "If you don't have anything nice to say... come sit next to me."
    -- Alice Roosevelt Longworth

  8. #58
    stop the bullshit rareboy's Avatar
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    Re: First Republican Senator comes out in favor of marriage equality!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Jack I swear not five minutes before I opened this thread my friend offline said "hey guess what idiotic thing they're saying over at Fox.."

    Would I be able to tell what you post right before you post it by watching Fox? My guess is yes.
    Springer keeps swearing that he doesn't watch FOX, yet 99% of his posts and threads are right from their talking points. So he must just pick them up second hand from whatever 'news' feed he's glued to all day....like Breitbarf.

  9. #59
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    Re: First Republican Senator comes out in favor of marriage equality!!!

    Have to throw in my two cents on your points above ZInger.

    1) The only issue I have is that coming out is a very personal choice. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. I get all the reasons why it's important for someone to come out but it should be their choice unless they are a bigot working to make others second class citizens.

    2) ITA with you on that one. My parents and siblings were behind me 100% when I came out. Others...not so much at first but are fully behind me now. My family is deeply Catholic and it took some time for them to come around because of their upbringing but they did.
    I fully get the anger and bitterness but I've come to the conclusion that they are on our side now. It will do now good to fight and attack them when others are still working to make us second class citizens.

  10. #60

    Re: First Republican Senator comes out in favor of marriage equality!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Zingerific View Post
    On a side note: I don't really care what Portman's motivation is. People's motives are opaque and obscure, often even to themselves. To say that conservatives are motivated by this one thing while liberals are motivated by something else is laughingly simplistic. Besides, whether motives are the purest of the pure or the basest of the base, ideas and actions need to be judged on their own merits regardless.
    If equality under the law for gay people was my sole concern then I would probably be alot happier. I am glad for the extra vote but no applause because people who don't beleive in equality will turn their attention to somone else...that is not OK with me.

  11. #61

    Re: First Republican Senator comes out in favor of marriage equality!!!

    Lovable Phyllis Schlafly says the RNC should ignore him and continue on with their prejudice.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_2907553.html

    There are still a lot of dinosaurs roaming around, and they're all in the conservative wing of the republican party.

  12. #62
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    Re: First Republican Senator comes out in favor of marriage equality!!!

    http://www.rightwingwatch.org/conten...y-announcement

    Just in case people want to bash Portman,at least he supports his son. Phyllis Schlafly is still a hateful bitch at 88 years old and having a son who is gay hasn't changed her vileness one bit.

  13. #63
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    Re: First Republican Senator comes out in favor of marriage equality!!!

    Well, I hope she dies in some disgraceful seizure or something ^_^
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  14. #64
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    Re: First Republican Senator comes out in favor of marriage equality!!!

    And she's among the nicer ones. Others are urging him to reject his son,force him into therapy or tell him to live a life of celibacy. He might not be up for reelection for another four years but the threats of making sure he doesn't get reelected are already out in full force.
    Say what you will but Portman knew full well the backlash he would get,and chose to stand up for his son.

  15. #65

    Re: First Republican Senator comes out in favor of marriage equality!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    Springer keeps swearing that he doesn't watch FOX, yet 99% of his posts and threads are right from their talking points. So he must just pick them up second hand from whatever 'news' feed he's glued to all day....like Breitbarf.
    I use my own brain. I don't rely on any specific news source for information.

    You might try that.

  16. #66
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: First Republican Senator comes out in favor of marriage equality!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    I use my own brain. I don't rely on any specific news source for information.

    You might try that.
    That was a lie.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  17. #67
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    Re: First Republican Senator comes out in favor of marriage equality!!!

    All due respect,this thread is about Portman. Please don't hijack it like so many others.

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    Re: First Republican Senator comes out in favor of marriage equality!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    I use my own brain. I don't rely on any specific news source for information.

    You might try that.
    Cue the music from the Wizard of Oz...IF I ONLY HAD A BRAIN...

  19. #69

    Re: First Republican Senator comes out in favor of marriage equality!!!

    Yes ... I have a brain and use it.

    Check to see if you're made out of straw.

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    Re: First Republican Senator comes out in favor of marriage equality!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Yes ... I have a brain and use it.

    Check to see if you're made out of straw.
    Um no Mr. Springer, it is your tedious arguments that are made out of straw.

  21. #71

    Re: First Republican Senator comes out in favor of marriage equality!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    I use my own brain. I don't rely on any specific news source for information.

    You might try that.
    This is about the biggest lie you've ever told.

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    Re: First Republican Senator comes out in favor of marriage equality!!!

    Why should we celebrate and why should we care? If he had done it on his own, purely out of a change of heart and a realization of the damage he has wrought, that would be one thing. The only reason he's doing it, though, is because he has a son who's gay. He's doing it purely for selfish reasons. It is not hard to imagine that if his son had never come out, he wouldn't have chosen this path. That alone makes his announcement and his support inconsequential.

  23. #73
    Sex God Zu-Mendel's Avatar
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    Re: First Republican Senator comes out in favor of marriage equality!!!

    Better a fair-weather friend than an avowed enemy.
    If you can't be part of the solution, there is plenty of money to be made being a part of the problem.

  24. #74
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    Re: First Republican Senator comes out in favor of marriage equality!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Zingerific View Post
    1) For as long as I can remember (which is too long to contemplate) one of the main arguments to convince people to come out is that it's the best way to convince people who otherwise would be homophobic (or indifferent) to support gay rights. Some even went so far as to claim that gay folks had a duty to do so. That the ultimate vindication of this strategy is met with derision is at the very least puzzling.

    2) Vilifying the converted for their former position is a terrible way to run a movement. In fact it may have a chilling effect on others contemplating such a move.
    That's what was bugging me earlier! Thanks!

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  25. #75
    JUB Addict Zingerific's Avatar
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    Re: First Republican Senator comes out in favor of marriage equality!!!

    It is not hard to imagine that if his son had never come out, he wouldn't have chosen this path. That alone makes his announcement and his support inconsequential.
    If that's true, than the (presumably) millions of people who decided on exactly the same basis are inconsequential as well.

    It seems like you're not going to be satisfied unless people pass some sort of purity test or something -- you're like that old joke about people who can't take yes for an answer.
    "If you don't have anything nice to say... come sit next to me."
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  26. #76
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    Re: First Republican Senator comes out in favor of marriage equality!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by JB3 View Post
    Why should we celebrate and why should we care? If he had done it on his own, purely out of a change of heart and a realization of the damage he has wrought, that would be one thing. The only reason he's doing it, though, is because he has a son who's gay. He's doing it purely for selfish reasons. It is not hard to imagine that if his son had never come out, he wouldn't have chosen this path. That alone makes his announcement and his support inconsequential.
    I could reduce anyone's motive for coming out to selfishness, which would reduce all coming out to "inconsequential".

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: First Republican Senator comes out in favor of marriage equality!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Zingerific View Post
    If that's true, than the (presumably) millions of people who decided on exactly the same basis are inconsequential as well.

    It seems like you're not going to be satisfied unless people pass some sort of purity test or something -- you're like that old joke about people who can't take yes for an answer.
    Kinda like in the GOP . . . .

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  28. #78
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    Re: First Republican Senator comes out in favor of marriage equality!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    A lot of people are saying this too, but the celebration seems to not stem from the question of why.

    It could not have been easy to be the first GOP Senator.
    Oh I agree. I guess I am just not buying into some of the rose-colored views of why he did it. I'm not sure I believe that he actually has changed his stance. I do believe he loves his son very much, so much so that he is willing to support equality for him.

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    JUB Addict T-Rexx's Avatar
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    Re: First Republican Senator comes out in favor of marriage equality!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by JB3 View Post
    Why should we celebrate and why should we care? If he had done it on his own, purely out of a change of heart and a realization of the damage he has wrought, that would be one thing. The only reason he's doing it, though, is because he has a son who's gay. He's doing it purely for selfish reasons. It is not hard to imagine that if his son had never come out, he wouldn't have chosen this path. That alone makes his announcement and his support inconsequential.
    Yes, exactly!

    While I welcome Portman's support, it is essentially a selfish act on his part. He is not backing gay marriage because it is good for America. He's doing it because it's good for Rob Portman. I am doubtful his new position will be very persuasive to other Republicans. But at least it's better than his previous unrelenting hatred.

  30. #80
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: First Republican Senator comes out in favor of marriage equality!!!

    I think it's a parent's duty to do that. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't recognize when a parent does his duty, especially when it means such professional risk for him.

    I have to wonder though, why didn't he do this before the election?
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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    Re: First Republican Senator comes out in favor of marriage equality!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    The question is what will this do to his political career? If he is up for re-election, I'm sure he'll be made a target by other republicans... if others choose to run against him.
    I don't think it's going to hurt him. (And neither does Portman, or he wouldn't have done this).

    Ohio is socially conservative, but not in the crazy, Tea Party way. I think Republicans here will accept this as a personal gesture of Portman to his son. I don't think Republicans here believe that Portman actually thinks it is okay for anyone other than his own son to be gay. It is significant that fellow Cincinnatian and Portman friend John Boehner has said he would not support gay marriage even if his own son was gay.

    The one way in which the Portman defection from Republican doctrine may be helpful, however, is that it may make it a little bit easier for the next Republican to come out in favor of gay marriage.

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    Re: First Republican Senator comes out in favor of marriage equality!!!

    Excellent editorial on Rob Portman's turnabout on gay marriage in The Miami Herald today:

    http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/03/1...-marriage.html


    So one can’t help but be frustrated and vexed by the senator’s inability to “get it” until “it” included his son. Will explained to him that his sexuality “was not a choice?” Lovely. But was the senator not listening when all those other gay men and lesbians tried to tell him the exact same thing?

    Apparently not. Like Dick Cheney, father of a lesbian daughter, Portman changed his view because the issue became personal. Which suggests a glaring lack of the courage and vision needed to put oneself into someone else’s shoes, imagine one’s way inside someone else’s life. These are capabilities that often seem to elude social conservatives.
    Last edited by T-Rexx; March 19th, 2013 at 10:28 PM.

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    Re: First Republican Senator comes out in favor of marriage equality!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    If a father is that willing to go against his own conscience and to put himself out like that in front of his anti-gay peers for his son, isn't that worthy of recognition?

    I'm quite sure my dad changed his opinion because of me, although I'll never really know for sure. I think he is proud of me, and I am proud of him. It's the strongest bond I have in my life besides my partner.

    A good dad-son relationship has that kind of power.
    I am unconvinced. The length that he has known and done nothing raises suspicion.

    Also, don't mistake this for not welcoming his support. As a Senator, we'll need him. But I just think people should be a bit more cautious about celebrating him.

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    Re: First Republican Senator comes out in favor of marriage equality!!!

    I caught a quick interview on the morning news where Senator Portman was asked if the Romney campaign was made aware of these issues during his vetting process about his gay son and resultant upport for gay marriage.

    He laughed, and said oh yes, that they were very thorough in their vetting. I have to wonder if he was not picked as the VP because of this issue.

    If he had been on the ticket and this news had gotten out before the election, I wonder...

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    Re: First Republican Senator comes out in favor of marriage equality!!!

    I'm adding this to the discussion…



    Among G.O.P. Voters, Little Support for Same-Sex Marriage

    By Nate Silver
    March 15, 2013 | http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes...-sex-marriage/

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	03.15.2013 Gay Marriage Poll.png 
Views:	10 
Size:	5.0 KB 
ID:	938906

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    Re: First Republican Senator comes out in favor of marriage equality!!!

    in 2011 when Republicians in CO killed the Civil Unions bill,it was later revealed two of them had gay sons. They were praised for following the wills of the voters in denying their children votes.
    One can simply look at his facebook page to see the backlash he's gotten from conservative Christians over this. He will have a tough fight but he will make it in Ohio. If it was elsewhere I highly doubt it.

  37. #87
    stop the bullshit rareboy's Avatar
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    Re: First Republican Senator comes out in favor of marriage equality!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    I use my own brain. I don't rely on any specific news source for information.

    You might try that.
    Oh come on. Your nose just grew three inches longer.

    The overwhelming response that I'm seeing out there in the media though is that while it is nice that this guy supports his son.....why is it that Republicans consistently only support things that affect them personally?

    It tends to taint the quality of the support. What we need are Republican politicians with straight kids who come out in favour of gay marriage.

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    Re: First Republican Senator comes out in favor of marriage equality!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    I think it's a parent's duty to do that. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't recognize when a parent does his duty, especially when it means such professional risk for him.

    I have to wonder though, why didn't he do this before the election?
    You have to ask? Polls say increasing support for Gay Marriage the last election pissed on right wing crazy and their Sharia law - it's just a matter of time before that becomes a big liability for bigots, his base is ancient for the most part and dying, the GOP is fracturing, the slightly right don't care about Gay Marriage, do the math.
    Last edited by TX-Beau; March 20th, 2013 at 07:53 AM.
    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

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    Re: First Republican Senator comes out in favor of marriage equality!!!

    The only one I know of is right here in Upstate NY named Richard Hanna,who will no doubt be facing a primary challange next year. ANd keep in mind he represents some liberal and very conservative parts of NY.

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    Re: First Republican Senator comes out in favor of marriage equality!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by MisterB View Post
    I caught a quick interview on the morning news where Senator Portman was asked if the Romney campaign was made aware of these issues during his vetting process about his gay son and resultant upport for gay marriage.

    He laughed, and said oh yes, that they were very thorough in their vetting. I have to wonder if he was not picked as the VP because of this issue.

    If he had been on the ticket and this news had gotten out before the election, I wonder...
    That's a good point.

    Prior to the selection of Paul Ryan, I expected Portman to be the vice presidential nominee. I thought that because Ohio was so critical to the outcome of the 2012 presidential election, Romney would want to maximize his chances in the state with an Ohio running mate. There were polls in Ohio that indicated that Portman would have helped Romney win the state. At the time, however, I was not aware that Portman had a gay son.

    Given Romney's profound homophobia, I would not be the least bit surprised if Portman was rejected as a running mate because of his gay son. While I personally don't think this would have changed the outcome of the election, there is always that possibility. Which means it is conceivable that Romney's (and the Republican Party's) hatred of gays cost them the 2012 election.


    Quote Originally Posted by CoolBlue71 View Post
    Among G.O.P. Voters, Little Support for Same-Sex Marriage

    By Nate Silver
    March 15, 2013 | http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes...-sex-marriage/

    Click image for larger version. 

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    While two-thirds of America favors gay marriage, almost all of that two-thirds is within the Democratic Party. For whatever reason, the Republican base remains profoundly homophobic. That does not augur well for Republicans generally coming out in favor of gay rights.

    It is probable that, despite majority American support for gay rights, half of America's legislators will continue to oppose such legislation aggressively.


    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    .....why is it that Republicans consistently only support things that affect them personally?
    This question has fascinated me for a long time.

    The fundamental difference between liberals and conservatives is that liberals support legislation for the common good, while conservatives support legislation for themselves.

    There is absolutely nothing wrong with advocating on behalf of oneself. But Republicans seem incapable of seeing any viewpoint beyond their own self-interest, and have insisted (in recent years) that they cannot compromise their own interest for the public good.

    It is remarkably selfish.
    Last edited by T-Rexx; March 20th, 2013 at 09:08 AM.

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    Re: First Republican Senator comes out in favor of marriage equality!!!

    While I doubt if his family was not affected by this issue personally, he would of changed his views, it is refreshing that he is willing to change his view for his son, at the very least he seems to be a good father.

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    Re: First Republican Senator comes out in favor of marriage equality!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    I think it's a parent's duty to do that. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't recognize when a parent does his duty, especially when it means such professional risk for him.

    I have to wonder though, why didn't he do this before the election?
    Maybe he decided it would have greater impact coming from an actual US Senator?

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: First Republican Senator comes out in favor of marriage equality!!!

    Bottom line,the Republicians used the Moral Majority to get votes and get elected. You can't get away from that base overnight.

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    Re: First Republican Senator comes out in favor of marriage equality!!!

    The fundamental difference between liberals and conservatives is that liberals support legislation for the common good, while conservatives support legislation for themselves
    Conservatives say the same thing about liberals, of course. That's the origin of Romney's 47% comment: those people only vote Democratic 'cause they're lazy and want to live off the government dole.

    This idea also ignores the demonstrable fact that the vast majority of Republicans vote against their economic self-interest (see What's the Matter with Kansas).

    I reject this kind of argumentation; it's too pat. It sure is easy to see one's enemies as wearing black hats and twisting their waxed mustaches. But it's precisely the same lack of empathy that we lefties criticize the right for.
    "If you don't have anything nice to say... come sit next to me."
    -- Alice Roosevelt Longworth

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    Re: First Republican Senator comes out in favor of marriage equality!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Zingerific View Post
    Conservatives say the same thing about liberals, of course. That's the origin of Romney's 47% comment: those people only vote Democratic 'cause they're lazy and want to live off the government dole.
    Yes, of course, Republicans make the opposite claim. But theirs is just a talking point. It is a statement not based on facts. Half of America is just living off the dole of the other half? Even a cursory look at the numbers shows that claim to be absurd with a capital "A". Only about 4 million Americans receive welfare payments, which is <1.3% of the population. About 47 million Americans get food stamps, which is still <15% of the population. And most of those people are working (but for very low wages). Some of these are even military families. You can hardly call these people lazy moochers. And what numbers we do see are a reflection of the phenomenal inequality of wealth distribution in America, not evidence of people too lazy to work.

    The USA spends less than 15% of its GDP on welfare programs, which ranks 26th of the top 29 developed countries in the world. Comparatively speaking, that's not much.

    The numbers don't even come close to supporting the Republican claim that half of America votes Democratic because half of America is selfishly lazy and trying to mooch off the other half. It is an absurd claim.

    Moreover, there's nothing about green energy that directs money toward people too lazy to work.

    There's nothing about protecting the environment that pays freeloaders.

    There's nothing about gay rights or human rights that supports the public dole.

    And yet, Democrats support these positions because we perceive them to be beneficial to the public good.

    There is nothing wrong with advocating on behalf of one's own interests. But the fact remains, liberals tend to back positions perceived as benefiting the public good. Conservatives tend to back positions perceived as benefiting themselves.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zingerific View Post
    This idea also ignores the demonstrable fact that the vast majority of Republicans vote against their economic self-interest (see What's the Matter with Kansas).
    This is true. Most Republicans ARE voting against their own self-interest when it comes to economic considerations. But they do this because they are convinced that making the rich richer is in their own interest, even though it is not. They are trying to be selfish, but simply failing out of ignorance.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zingerific View Post
    I reject this kind of argumentation; it's too pat. It sure is easy to see one's enemies as wearing black hats and twisting their waxed mustaches. But it's precisely the same lack of empathy that we lefties criticize the right for.
    It isn't a "pat" argument if it is backed up by facts. Which it is.

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