Habemus Papam

[Kulindahr]

Here's one way to look at the problem:

The College of Cardinals is both nominating committee and electorate. The only way to become a Cardinal is to be appointed by the Pope. So when any pope knows he's coming to the end of his run, he can plan ahead to get his chosen successor elected merely by appointing Cardinals who will vote his way.

Given that the last Pope is still alive, even though this outcome is tragic it was not unexpected: not many Cardinals are going to support someone who is likely to change course when their last boss is still around. In fact in hindsight, that may be the very reason the last one resigned while still alive: to guarantee that his successor would be just as much a Rat as himself.

So call him Pope Rat II.



BTW, with his positions, his choice of name is an insult to St. Francis of Assisi -- but I presume that's not the Francis he had in mind anyway.

[T-Rexx]

Francis I is yet another misogynistic, gay-bashing, homophobic bigot.

Agree about his no doubt bigoted 18th century views, however he is Pope Francis. no Roman Numeral, til there is a 2nd pope named Francis. Works the same as kings & queens. Like Queen Victoria & King John
c

I have a prediction.

The very next pope is going to be Francis II.

[T-Rexx]

BTW, with his positions, his choice of name is an insult to St. Francis of Assisi -- but I presume that's not the Francis he had in mind anyway.

Because he is a Jesuit, I presume he chose the name for Francis Xavier.

[flashgordon85]

This Pope has shown signs of humility, no golden cross. This morning (italian clock) he had black shoes.

I don't think about his past has supported the dictatorship. This morning he said he had many priests defrocked because they supported the dictatorship.

Now we need to think about his past, but I do not think it's true what they say about his past.

[flashgordon85]

His Pope's name is a sign of break with Church past. FRANCESCO (Francis) a NEW name for a Pope. Like St Francis di Assisi , the Saint of poor, or St. Francis Xavier, the Jesuit.

[chrisrobin]

Of COURSE you would hate a non-white pope...

Let's see... Pope Francis is from Argentina. He now lives in the Vatican. My God! He's an immigrant!

[loki81]

Because he is a Jesuit, I presume he chose the name for Francis Xavier.

the Vatican clarified almost immediately after the announcement that he chose the name after Saint Francis of Assisi.

he seems to have lived a humble life in Argentina, giving up the church palace in favor of an apartment and taking the bus instead of using a driver. he's also an outsider to Vatican politics, so maybe there's a small window of hope that we'll see some changing of the guard and house cleaning.

he's awful on gay rights and I'm not excusing that, but be realistic... the Catholic church would never nominate someone progressive on that issue. all other issues considered, it doesn't seem like he's a terrible person. but complaining that the Catholic Church didn't elect a Pope who's pro-gay marriage is a little like sticking your hand into a bucket of ice and expressing shock that it's cold.

[Keeland]

Because he is a Jesuit, I presume he chose the name for Francis Xavier.

Nah. He named himself after Frank Sinatra.

[star-warrior]

Come forth minions!

[JockBoy87]

This Pope has shown signs of humility, no golden cross.

I did notice that his cross was silver instead of gold.

[White Eagle]

1st I'll admit i didn't read all the posts so far. I'm in a hurry to get to a Dr appt.
They said that in 2001 he visited a Hospital in Buenos Aries and visited AIDS patients, got on the floor and washed their feet. So he is sympathetic to the illness.

[Keeland]

When someone's there to record him doing so.

[T-Rexx]

he's awful on gay rights and I'm not excusing that, but be realistic... the Catholic church would never nominate someone progressive on that issue. all other issues considered, it doesn't seem like he's a terrible person. but complaining that the Catholic Church didn't elect a Pope who's pro-gay marriage is a little like sticking your hand into a bucket of ice and expressing shock that it's cold.

That's true. It's like wishing for a gay-friendly Republican.

[Rolyo85]

That's true. It's like wishing for a gay-friendly Republican.

That's not fair. There's nothing inherently homophobic about Catholicism... There are so many gay friendly Catholic Churches.

[bankside]

the Vatican clarified almost immediately after the announcement that he chose the name after Saint Francis of Assisi.

he seems to have lived a humble life in Argentina, giving up the church palace in favor of an apartment and taking the bus instead of using a driver. he's also an outsider to Vatican politics, so maybe there's a small window of hope that we'll see some changing of the guard and house cleaning.

he's awful on gay rights and I'm not excusing that, but be realistic... the Catholic church would never nominate someone progressive on that issue. all other issues considered, it doesn't seem like he's a terrible person. but complaining that the Catholic Church didn't elect a Pope who's pro-gay marriage is a little like sticking your hand into a bucket of ice and expressing shock that it's cold.

Yes, the Death Star of human equality has a more congenial captain, who dresses in humble threads. We still need to find its exhaust port.

[Keeland]

That's not fair. There's nothing inherently homophobic about Catholicism... There are so many gay friendly Catholic Churches.

Yeah, right. Some of my best friends are homos, but

Pope Benedict XVI sparked a furious reaction from other Christian groups as he also suggested that a blurring of the distinction between male and female could lead to the "self-destruction" of the human race. . . .

. . . It [the church] opposes gay marriage and, in October, one leading Vatican official described homosexuality as "a deviation, an irregularity, a wound". . . .

. . . In his address to the Curia, the Vatican's central administration, the Pope himself described behaviour beyond traditional heterosexual relations as "a destruction of God's work".

He said the Roman Catholic Church had a duty to "protect man from the destruction of himself" and urged respect for the "nature of the human being as man and woman." . . .

From The Telegraph

[GiancarloC]

What he's saying is true. Even though he's still a bigot, he belongs to one of the most liberal sects of catholicism. Most conservative christians despise the Jesuits because of how liberal they are compared to rest of conservative christianity.

He's a conservative himself... so why should I excuse what he has said? Just because he's not as extremely conservative? Bullsh*t.

[GiancarloC]

I don't think about his past has supported the dictatorship. This morning he said he had many priests defrocked because they supported the dictatorship.

Now we need to think about his past, but I do not think it's true what they say about his past.

That's not addressing the reality. He refused to even recognize that babies were kidnapped during the military dictatorship. If he was so against it, he would have said something. This man is no Oscar Romero.

[T-Rexx]

Yeah, right. Some of my best friends are homos, but

Pope Benedict XVI sparked a furious reaction from other Christian groups as he also suggested that a blurring of the distinction between male and female could lead to the "self-destruction" of the human race. . . .

. . . It [the church] opposes gay marriage and, in October, one leading Vatican official described homosexuality as "a deviation, an irregularity, a wound". . . .

. . . In his address to the Curia, the Vatican's central administration, the Pope himself described behaviour beyond traditional heterosexual relations as "a destruction of God's work".

He said the Roman Catholic Church had a duty to "protect man from the destruction of himself" and urged respect for the "nature of the human being as man and woman." . . .

From The Telegraph

And he referred to gay adoption as a form of child abuse!

It is hard for me to reconcile this man's beliefs. On the one hand, he appears to be a compassionate champion of the poor and oppressed. He manifests humility and dedication to the service of mankind. In many ways, he is an ideal pope.

On the other hand, he spews some of the most hateful venom I have ever heard from the church regarding homosexuality. He deliberately ignores scientific evidence and social justice so he can perpetuate ancient and hurtful prejudices.

It is weirdly and disturbingly inconsistent thinking.

That's not fair. There's nothing inherently homophobic about Catholicism... There are so many gay friendly Catholic Churches.

Name one.

I don't think you can say there is "nothing inherently homophobic" about a church that is doctrinally homophobic. Francis could change that, of course, and in so doing would do much to advance the social justice that seems so dear to him.

But I don't think he can get past his own, apparently deep-seated, bigotry.

[Keeland]

Ha ha ha ha. I don't know whether this is stupidity or a purposeful ironic joke. If it's the former, the headline writer needs another editor. If it's the latter, a bonus cheque should be in the mail. Either way, it's funny.

Pope Francis’ humility on display as he stops by hotel to pick up bags after praying at shrine

[Rolyo85]

Name one.

I don't think you can say there is "nothing inherently homophobic" about a church that is doctrinally homophobic. Francis could change that, of course, and in so doing would do much to advance the social justice that seems so dear to him.

But I don't think he can get past his own, apparently deep-seated, bigotry.

I can't name any, I go by what gay Catholic friends have told me. The Catholic church - despite the Vatican's barking - is actually incredibly decentralized. And Christianity isn't inherently homophobic. It's just what Christianists in all denominations have turned it into today. Same way as it isn't inherently racist but was still used to defend racial discrimination.

[Keeland]

This should be nailed to the Vatican's front door (after being printed in quaduplicate to the 10th power and nailed to the front doors of all news-media outlets world-wide).

[Jack Springer]

Another Christian bashing thread.

Nothing new for CEP -- we all get that you hate God -- but God still loves you.

Give it a rest.

[andysayshi]

I don't hate God, Jack.

But I do hate organisations that protect child abusers, that actively cover up cases of child abuse, and leave known child abusers in positions of power where their abuse can be continued on more innocent children.

Watch the recent HBO documentary Mea Maxima Culpa: Silence In The House Of God, and THEN tell me the papacy stands for a loving, compassionate God.

[Rolyo85]

Another Christian bashing thread.

Nothing new for CEP -- we all get that you hate God -- but God still loves you.

Give it a rest.

This is such a classic GOP maneuver. "Gays want marriage" = "gays hate straight couples!"

No, my dear Jack. We don't hate God. Can't hate a fantasy. What we hate, are the virulently bigoted fundamentalist terrorist branches of the religion that uses him as a symbol.

[cityboy-stl]

You know...it's only been 1 day. I think we should give him a chance.

[Vitamin]

You know...it's only been 1 day. I think we should give him a chance.

Francis' opinion on gay marriage in 2010:

Here, the envy of the Devil, through which sin entered the world, is also present, and deceitfully intends to destroy the image of God: man and woman, who receive the mandate to grow, multiply, and conquer the earth. Let us not be naive: it is not a simple political struggle; it is an intention [which is] destructive of the plan of God. It is not a mere legislative project (this is a mere instrument), but rather a "move" of the father of lies who wishes to confuse and deceive the children of God.

http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/201...goglio-to.html

Sorry, I'm not giving someone a chance who compared gay marriage to Satanism. Not gonna happen.

[Kulindahr]

His Pope's name is a sign of break with Church past. FRANCESCO (Francis) a NEW name for a Pope. Like St Francis di Assisi , the Saint of poor, or St. Francis Xavier, the Jesuit.

If, as is most certainly the case, he means Xavier, then there's no break with the past at all. Xavier believed the heresy that the government should bow to the church, and of using violence in "evangelism".

[Kulindahr]

the Vatican clarified almost immediately after the announcement that he chose the name after Saint Francis of Assisi.

I consider than an insult to the brother from Assisi.

But time will tell.

[JB3]

He's a conservative himself... so why should I excuse what he has said? Just because he's not as extremely conservative? Bullsh*t.

He's liberal compared to most catholics. That is what we're saying. Yes, he's conservative compared to political liberals, but he's liberal in the schema of catholicism.

[GiancarloC]

He's liberal compared to most catholics. That is what we're saying. Yes, he's conservative compared to political liberals, but he's liberal in the schema of catholicism.

But if one were to look at his views this is clearly not the case. And Believe me I know a lot about Catholicism... so don't even try to lecture me on that.

- - - Updated - - -

Another Christian bashing thread.

Nothing new for CEP -- we all get that you hate God -- but God still loves you.

Give it a rest.

I'm atheist so I don't need approval from some made up "god".

[Rolyo85]

Lol, also, I just realized the virulent irony of Jack calling ANYONE for making "bashing" threads. When he has not posted a non-bashing thread in living memory...

[pat grimshaw]

... the Jesuits are not at all liberal , they are the most ultra reactionary ....

That what my Catholic and Lapsed Catholic friends say, that the Jesuits are the worst; they're vicious hardliners.

[JayHawk]

So um if you are not catholic what does it matter to you?

The Pope in his previous life fought against the President of Argentine to prevent same sex marriage and lost. So he knows that more and more the church that ruled the planet is less and less relevant.

So then why the flagellation and gnashing of teeth?

[bankside]

So um if you are not catholic what does it matter to you?

The Pope in his previous life fought against the President of Argentine to prevent same sex marriage and lost. So he knows that more and more the church that ruled the planet is less and less relevant.

So then why the flagellation and gnashing of teeth?

Probably because it is not reasonable to expect they will count themselves out for the long term. To these people, the Magna Carta is only a "temporary setback."

[White Eagle]

I, personally, have not seen anything bad about the Pope, until now. I know there will be some who do not believe anything from Alternet, so, I'm posting this to let the forum be the judge of the article. The anti will just have to wait.

http://www.alternet.org/world/new-po...tter809408&t=3

Democracy Now! / By Amy Goodman, Juan Gonzalez, Horacio Verbitsky

The New Pope's Disturbing Past -- Revealing Francis's Ties to Abduction of Priests
Expert Horacio Verbitsky exposes the new pope's questionable history.

March 14, 2013 |


JUAN GONZÁLEZ: For more on the new pope, we turn now to one of Argentina’s leading investigative journalists, Horacio Verbitsky, who has written extensively about the career of Cardinal Bergoglio and his actions during the military dictatorship that ruled Argentina from 1976 to 1983. During that time, up to 30,000 people were kidnapped and killed. A 2005 lawsuit accused Jorge Bergoglio of being connected to the 1976 kidnappings of two Jesuit priests, Orlando Yorio and Francisco Jalics. The lawsuit was filed after the publication of Verbitsky’s book, The Silence: From Paul VI to Bergoglio: The Secret Relations Between the Church and the ESMA. ESMA refers to the former navy school that was turned into a detention center where people were tortured by the military dictatorship. The new pope has denied the charges. He twice invoked his right under Argentine law to refuse to appear in open court to testify about the allegations. When he eventually did testify in 2010, human rights activists characterized his answers as evasive.

[Jack Springer]

But if one were to look at his views this is clearly not the case. And Believe me I know a lot about Catholicism... so don't even try to lecture me on that.

- - - Updated - - -



I'm atheist so I don't need approval from some made up "god".

Even though you may be an atheist there is still a God.

[JockBoy87]

Even though you may be an atheist there is still a God.

The burden of proof is on you to substantiate the existence of an object that you have only suggested exists.

[bankside]

Even though you may be an atheist there is still a God.

Even though you may be a believer there is still no god.

But there is a pope. And he's a piece of work, apparently not showing good open christian candour when questioned about his knowledge and role in past argentinian dictatorships.

[GiancarloC]

Even though you may be an atheist there is still a God.

Prove it... oh wait... I should just take someones word for it...

This new pope really showing his true colors... and for those who had high expectations, wishful thinking.

[GiancarloC]

I, personally, have not seen anything bad about the Pope, until now. I know there will be some who do not believe anything from Alternet, so, I'm posting this to let the forum be the judge of the article. The anti will just have to wait.

http://www.alternet.org/world/new-po...tter809408&t=3

Some will say he was against the military junta, but that is not the case. He even refused to acknowledge the disappeared babies that were kidnapped from their parents when they were born. This refusal alone shows a very dark past. And the kidnappings of two Jesuit priests is something I have heard about before, but not in great detail.

This man has an ugly past.

[Keeland]

Not only does he love brutal, fascist dictatorships, he's learned nothing since Henry VII.

[Benvolio]

Henry VII? Or VIII.

[Keeland]

Oops. VIII.

Not that Hank shows up in that story — it's the political history of England vs. the pope I was referring to.

[Benvolio]

He is not an impressive choice. His exaggerated concern for the "needy" without seeing that an important cause of poverty in Catholic countries is the Church's prohibition of birth control, does not bode well. Benedict spoke out in favor of environmental concerns, without being able to see that ultimately all environmental problems are population problems. Sadly, the Catholic Church lacks a valid moral compass, or perhaps just doesn't use it.