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  1. #51
    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Re: Oops! CIA Brennan Takes Oath on US Constitution That Does Not Include the Bill of Rights

    Hmm perhaps I should swear on a box of trojans......
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


  2. #52
    FEAR THE LIBERAL DETENTE! TX-Beau's Avatar
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    Re: Oops! CIA Brennan Takes Oath on US Constitution That Does Not Include the Bill of Rights

    I would swear on a old dog eared copy of Jock magazine.
    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

  3. #53
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: Oops! CIA Brennan Takes Oath on US Constitution That Does Not Include the Bill of Rights

    I'm of two minds about the symbolism.

    It does seem daft to assume office while not acknowledging the key modern constitutional protections that make a country ethical.

    However it also seems fitting to just go back to the original document to acknowledge the depth of a country's history..after all, the country's history has never been refudiated.

    So to me the symbolism is clearly mixed. But I can't get too worked up about symbolism anyway. If a Canadian took office swearing on the British North America Act of 1867, while omitting the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, I might be annoyed. But if he took office swearing on a painting of the Fathers of Confederation in Charlottetown, it's still kind of hard to fault.

    And if he said "Actually, this is all kind of silly. I'm not resting my hand on anything, or making any sort of gestures; none of that will change the public record I have or the testimony I gave when nominated for the position, and don't tell me the gesticulation makes any kind of actual difference because what if I had been a thalidomide baby born with no arms? What would you do then? Bar me from office? I think not..." then I'd vote for him to become pope too, never mind just director of a department.
    Two journalists killed during live broadcasts by madman smothering them with pillows. Because remember, guns don't kill people....

  4. #54

    Re: Oops! CIA Brennan Takes Oath on US Constitution That Does Not Include the Bill of Rights

    Again, this is historically an overwhelmingly Christian country which believed that a false oath is a serious wring. The Bible was to impress that upon the oath taker. Clearly by refusing the Bible, Brennan was signifying that the oath does not for him, have the same degree of solemnity. Or perhaps it does and by omitting the Bible he allowed himselfelf more wiggle room.

    - - - Updated - - -

  5. #55
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    Re: Oops! CIA Brennan Takes Oath on US Constitution That Does Not Include the Bill of Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Again, this is historically an overwhelmingly Christian country which believed that a false oath is a serious wring. The Bible was to impress that upon the oath taker. Clearly by refusing the Bible, Brennan was signifying that the oath does not for him, have the same degree of solemnity. Or perhaps it does and by omitting the Bible he allowed himselfelf more wiggle room.

    - - - Updated - - -
    Oooooor, he isn't a religious person and the bible has no laws governing the conduct of the United States Government.

    Honestly, if anything, him swearing on the Constitution brings more meaning to the oath because he is essentially swearing to the governing document of our country that he will faithfully carry out his duties.

  6. #56
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: Oops! CIA Brennan Takes Oath on US Constitution That Does Not Include the Bill of Rights

    There is no such thing as a christian country. It's like saying there is "christian math" or "buddhist chemistry" or a "catholic bicycle." It is a country with a large number of christians. But any act done in respect of the country itself, as opposed to what one might choose to do in private life, is nothing to do with religion.

    Clearly by refusing the Bible, Brennan was signifying that the oath does not for him, have the same degree of solemnity.
    And what the hell has this got to do with anything? I thought people were worried about which version of the constitution he was using, not whether there was a bible involved? Your statement implies that non-christians are not capable of solemnity, or that christians are not capable of solemnity outside a religious context. Clearly by refusing the bible (if he was even offered one) he might have have been signalling greater solemnity.
    Last edited by bankside; March 10th, 2013 at 02:58 PM.
    Two journalists killed during live broadcasts by madman smothering them with pillows. Because remember, guns don't kill people....

  7. #57
    Virtus in medio stat JUB Admin opinterph's Avatar
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    Re: Oops! CIA Brennan Takes Oath on US Constitution That Does Not Include the Bill of Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Again, this is historically an overwhelmingly Christian country which believed that a false oath is a serious wring. The Bible was to impress that upon the oath taker. Clearly by refusing the Bible, Brennan was signifying that the oath does not for him, have the same degree of solemnity. Or perhaps it does and by omitting the Bible he allowed [himself] more wiggle room.
    In 1825 John Quincy Adams made a point of not using a Bible, but chose to be sworn in with his hand on a book of US laws. He was emphasizing the barrier between church and state and making it clear that his loyalty was first and foremost to the nationís laws.

    Theodore Roosevelt did not use a Bible when taking the oath in 1901.

  8. #58
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: Oops! CIA Brennan Takes Oath on US Constitution That Does Not Include the Bill of Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Again, this is historically an overwhelmingly Christian country which believed that a false oath is a serious wring. The Bible was to impress that upon the oath taker. Clearly by refusing the Bible, Brennan was signifying that the oath does not for him, have the same degree of solemnity. Or perhaps it does and by omitting the Bible he allowed himselfelf more wiggle room.
    That's almost hilariously stupid thing to say If I am not a religious person, swearing on the Bible means as much to me as swearing on a blu-ray box set of Season 4 of True Blood. It gives me exactly the same amount of wriggle-room. Do get it through your skull that non-religious people exist, and they are just as capable (and more) of compassion, dedication to values and dignity. Except, they don't need some despotic religion to TELL them to be that way, they just are.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  9. #59

    Re: Oops! CIA Brennan Takes Oath on US Constitution That Does Not Include the Bill of Rights

    A majority of Americans see it differently than you.

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    Re: Oops! CIA Brennan Takes Oath on US Constitution That Does Not Include the Bill of Rights

    Benvolio, the Constitution is far more relevant. The bible written in piss on shit stained toilet paper in that it has no importance to job of the director of the CIA. No ones gives a rats ass if anyone sees it differently, because PEOPLE CAN BE WRONG. More likely though, they're ignorant.

    But wouldn't it be better for you this way? Seriously, there's nothing on that stack of paper saying religion and government have to be distinct. Isn't this a win-win for you?

  11. #61
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: Oops! CIA Brennan Takes Oath on US Constitution That Does Not Include the Bill of Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    A majority of Americans see it differently than you.
    A majority of Americans think the Bible is more important for the governing of the country than the Constitution? Any research to back that claim?

    Also, until very recently, a majority of Americans thought that gays shouldn't be allowed to marry. I know you still believe that. But the majority argument is often biting people in the ass like that...
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  12. #62
    FEAR THE LIBERAL DETENTE! TX-Beau's Avatar
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    Re: Oops! CIA Brennan Takes Oath on US Constitution That Does Not Include the Bill of Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Again, this is historically an overwhelmingly Christian country which believed that a false oath is a serious wring. The Bible was to impress that upon the oath taker. Clearly by refusing the Bible, Brennan was signifying that the oath does not for him, have the same degree of solemnity. Or perhaps it does and by omitting the Bible he allowed himselfelf more wiggle room.

    - - - Updated - - -
    Huh? People have been giving false and insincere oaths on the bible since forever. God didn't do shit about it, ever.

    You are spewing ridiculous crap in order to indulge your own bigotries.

    Game. Set. Match.
    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

  13. #63

    Re: Oops! CIA Brennan Takes Oath on US Constitution That Does Not Include the Bill of Rights

    Please ... leave the race card out of this. Get beyond your internal deep-gut feelings of black men as inferior. Accept Obama as a man.

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Shils. Girl you funny.

    The valid point is where was your pearl clutching while the white man was doing the same thing as Obama? Oh yeah you were okay with it... The point of the thread is that Jack and the author have some errant hope that a bullshit story will gain ground. You know it and Jack knows it.

    The denial of reality by you guys now that a black man is doing the same thing a failed white oilman/baseball man/aviator (who has now regressed into him self and paints in a room by himself because he was so deceived by the group of animals he put into office). That is the stark reality. For eight years of Bush REAL atrocities were being only half reported and now during the Obama admin the right is trying to desperately develop something into a story. It is rather amusing.

    But like I said please keep touting your learned opinions. Folks like jack and you ensure republicans will continue to lose ground. So for that you deserve a giant thank you from all of us. Most of the rest of us have enough self respect to actually endorse the truth. So thank god for those lacking.

  14. #64

    Re: Oops! CIA Brennan Takes Oath on US Constitution That Does Not Include the Bill of Rights

    The writings of the Bible can be backed up by history and archeology.


    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post

    A bit of humor regarding swearing on the bible... and truth.

    "I'll tell you as much truth as the people who wrote that fucking bible" - One of my favorite quotes.

  15. #65

    Re: Oops! CIA Brennan Takes Oath on US Constitution That Does Not Include the Bill of Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    The writings of the Bible can be backed up by history and archeology.
    Yeah right.... Show me where the Tower of Babel, Noah's ark, Garden of Eden was. Parting of the Dead Sea ... where was that?

    It's all morality plays Springer.

    You get fooled quite easily. I've got a bridge to sell you.

  16. #66
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    The writings of the Bible can be backed up by history and archeology.
    That's mostly false. At least where the Old Testament is concerned
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  17. #67
    Suck my dick, Scalia! FuryOfFirestorm's Avatar
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    Re: Oops! CIA Brennan Takes Oath on US Constitution That Does Not Include the Bill of Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    The writings of the Bible can be backed up by history and archeology.
    Just because some places and events in the Bible were real, doesn't make the whole thing true. Just because the city of Athens existed and there was a Trojan War doesn't prove the existence of Athena or Ares.

    And no matter how many times the numbers are crunched, there is no way that Noah's Ark could function as described in the Bible.

  18. #68
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FuryOfFirestorm View Post

    Just because some places and events in the Bible were real, doesn't make the whole thing true. Just because the city of Athens existed and there was a Trojan War doesn't prove the existence of Athena or Ares.

    And no matter how many times the numbers are crunched, there is no way that Noah's Ark could function as described in the Bible.
    No no no, it's all allegorical! Except for when it serves Christianists to claim select parts are literal, and those parts tend to spontaneously change depending on what lunatic bigotry they're currently defending.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  19. #69
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    Re: Oops! CIA Brennan Takes Oath on US Constitution That Does Not Include the Bill of Rights

    I worked for the Federal Government for 38 years. I swore an oath each time I changed jobs between agencies. First time, it was a big deal for me; I was 18 and just starting my federal career. Second and subsequent times it was no big deal. At all.

    At no time did I hold my hand on a book or any type of constitutional or religious representation. Nor was I asked to. I was required to raise my right hand though.

    I worked in Human Resources as a personnel assistant during my early career. Part of my duties was to administer the Oath of Office to new Agency employees. I received training on how to administer the oath from the Civil Service Commission.

    Anyway, never did I supply any type of a book or constitutional/religious representation, nor can I recall one time where the oath taker provided his/her own.

    In my last position prior to retirement, I oversaw several administrative programs, including the Human Resources Division. I attended many high-level swear-ins as it was during the President's first year--lots of new officials. Same drill as then I administered the oath 35 years previous.

    Anyway, just the facts ma'am, just the facts.

  20. #70
    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Re: Oops! CIA Brennan Takes Oath on US Constitution That Does Not Include the Bill of Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by MisterB View Post
    I worked for the Federal Government for 38 years. I swore an oath each time I changed jobs between agencies. First time, it was a big deal for me; I was 18 and just starting my federal career. Second and subsequent times it was no big deal. At all.

    At no time did I hold my hand on a book or any type of constitutional or religious representation. Nor was I asked to. I was required to raise my right hand though.

    I worked in Human Resources as a personnel assistant during my early career. Part of my duties was to administer the Oath of Office to new Agency employees. I received training on how to administer the oath from the Civil Service Commission.

    Anyway, never did I supply any type of a book or constitutional/religious representation, nor can I recall one time where the oath taker provided his/her own.

    In my last position prior to retirement, I oversaw several administrative programs, including the Human Resources Division. I attended many high-level swear-ins as it was during the President's first year--lots of new officials. Same drill as then I administered the oath 35 years previous.

    Anyway, just the facts ma'am, just the facts.
    Thanks for your service if nobody has told you that today!

    I feel the same way about the oaths. I have both orchestrated the ceremony when I was a junior enlisted guy or was the guy giving the oath...

    The best was in Battleship cove. We went to Dave and Buster's in Providence Place Mall after reenlisting a sailor on the exhibit USS Lionfish. We all headed down to Providence to have a celebratory beverage or two right after the ceremony so we were all in uniform. Some random stranger who did not wish to be identified paid for all of our beverages and food. Between steak and booze, I know I put away at least sixty bucks. That guys bill must have been outrageous. It is my fondest wish that I can pay that forward some day. I will somehow.

    The weirdest was while my re-enlistee was steering an HH-60H using the CSAR controls at the back of the aircraft... we were doing slow deltas next to the CSG during flight ops.... I couldn't hear a fucking word he said and I am pretty sure he didn't hear me... but he was none the less enlisted when we signed the contract a few hours later.

    Ink matters, words and hand placement not so much.

    Good memories.... I wanna youth pill to do it again.....
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


  21. #71

    Re: Oops! CIA Brennan Takes Oath on US Constitution That Does Not Include the Bill of Rights

    I don't think this means anything for real. This whole administration is a nonstop dog and pony show. It is so tedious. They probably didn't know the difference anyway. This is a non-issue.
    Only government can take perfectly good paper, cover it with perfectly good ink and make the combination worthless.

  22. #72
    FEAR THE LIBERAL DETENTE! TX-Beau's Avatar
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    Re: Oops! CIA Brennan Takes Oath on US Constitution That Does Not Include the Bill of Rights

    What administration isn't a non-stop dog and pony show? That seems an very odd criticism.
    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

  23. #73

    Re: Oops! CIA Brennan Takes Oath on US Constitution That Does Not Include the Bill of Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    What administration isn't a non-stop dog and pony show? That seems an very odd criticism.
    It wasn't a criticism per se. I was a description. I see your point however. This administration isn't so much a dog and pony show as much as it is kabuki theater. The current president does wear more makeup than any random drag queen.
    Only government can take perfectly good paper, cover it with perfectly good ink and make the combination worthless.

  24. #74
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    Re: Oops! CIA Brennan Takes Oath on US Constitution That Does Not Include the Bill of Rights

    JayHawk: Thanks for the kind words. I'm very proud of my service. I can honestly say I worked hard for the money and then some.

    My father was a career Navy man and both older brothers each served in the Navy. Service to country was always stressed in our house. So, I went to work for the civil service while waiting for my draft number; it was 1972.

    Got a high draft number (307), so I decided to make a career of my federal employment. I worked hard, and was able to pursue my post-high school education while working fulltime. I worked with some of the smartest, most dedicated public servants. I worked with folks who could have easily doubled/tripled their salaries in the private sector. But they didn't.

    I'm blessed. This is truly a great country and we should all be proud. While I may not have voted for all who have been President, I certainly have wanted nothing but success for them. As we've seen for the past four years, when the politicians don't succeed, the country suffers. And, I just don't understand the mindset of some of the posters here who wish this country to fail, whether they use those words or not. Very sad.

    And back at you JayHawk--THANK YOU for your service in the military.

    Like I read in another thread where you posted, I too lurk/read and will post on occasion, especially when I read some of the nonsense. Bless their hearts.

  25. #75
    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
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    Re: Oops! CIA Brennan Takes Oath on US Constitution That Does Not Include the Bill of Rights

    Thanks MisterB.

    I have willingly taken six oaths of office -- two of which were offered by the President himself, first Bush then Obama. No different than any other commission but the concept of service is supreme to me. I can not imagine me doing anything else that would have affected as many lives positively.

    To the point of this thread: I never once thought of some deep constitutional demand because of what is immediately around me or what my hand is on when I am administered an oath. Just service to the people that flag represents and protecting the constitution which steers this nations course. I have saluted the flag countless times in my life. I have openly wept when it draped a coffin and I have almost burst with pride when it was raised for the first time on a ship I commissioned, that I brought life to and put into service. All through out I ask myself everyday if I am doing the right thing, am I making the right move. So in reality, the oath means shit only if the actions define it as such. Every person defines that every day.

    So it is telling to me when people write such things. They have no concept of service or what taking an oath feels like. They simply desire to get a point in an endless word battle, a meaningless point at that. I honestly believe when the writers of guiding light found themselves out of work they found refuge in the republican party. Only in soap opera do you find such wild and erroneous tales of fantasy. The same party that is trying to keep people from voting so they can retain power calls the Obama administration and the people in it -- dictators. How amusingly ironic.
    Last edited by JayHawk; March 12th, 2013 at 08:00 PM.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


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