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  1. #51
    GiancarloC
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    Re: North Korea Ends Peace Pacts With South Korea

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    South Korea's military surpassed the North Korean's sometime ago, the south will most likely win any conflict now but Seoul would be destroyed in the initial missile exchanges so they would rather avoid it.
    The South Koreans surpassed North Korea in military quality in the mid 1980s to be exact. And the South Korean airforce has a significant bombing capability. At any rate as however callous as they seem, I don't think North Korea is suicidal.

  2. #52
    auribus teneo lupum Stardreamer's Avatar
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    Re: North Korea Ends Peace Pacts With South Korea

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Not exactly. ICBMs are a different story entirely.

    http://www.albanyherald.com/news/201...g-north-korea/

    Here is a story on the whole situation... China may be getting tired of the theatrics... if North Korea even tries to hit the US and damage our economy that could damage the Chinese economy.
    Not all that different really, a lot of the real drive behind the US/Soviet space race was not JUST the prestige of getting to the moon first but that the technology to do so also made it possible to perfect ICBMs that could hit a target on the other side of the globe with reasonable accuracy.

    China though has always been the primary check on North Korean insanity. While they are perfectly willing to let NK be a thorn in our and Japan's side they have no interest in a new war on the Korean peninsula particular one with nukes and will them down if they fill they are getting too carried away.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

  3. #53
    auribus teneo lupum Stardreamer's Avatar
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    Re: North Korea Ends Peace Pacts With South Korea

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    Assuming they don't blow themselves up during the attempt. They've become very good at burying nukes to detonate. I bet they're now trying to tunnel through the earth to reach the US.
    LOL that the plot of really old 60's sci-fi movie. I'll have to see if I can find it.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

  4. #54
    GiancarloC
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    Re: North Korea Ends Peace Pacts With South Korea

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    Not all that different really, a lot of the real drive behind the US/Soviet space race was not JUST the prestige of getting to the moon first but that the technology to do so also made it possible to perfect ICBMs that could hit a target on the other side of the globe with reasonable accuracy.
    Their ICBMs aren't at all that capable and aren't accurate. So lets stay real here... this isn't a space race and launching a satellite straight up into orbit isn't the same thing as ICBM technology, and it's not even close.

    China though has always been the primary check on North Korean insanity. While they are perfectly willing to let NK be a thorn in our and Japan's side they have no interest in a new war on the Korean peninsula particular one with nukes and will them down if they fill they are getting too carried away.
    Well one could just see how much China trades with the US... they could lose hundreds of billions if anything were to happen. China alone trades in excess of $100 billion with South Korea.

    http://www.economywatch.com/world_ec...rt-import.html

    China accounts for 23.2% of SOUTH Korea's total exports ($466.3 billion total), that's over $108 billion in total.

  5. #55
    auribus teneo lupum Stardreamer's Avatar
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    Re: North Korea Ends Peace Pacts With South Korea

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Their ICBMs aren't at all that capable and aren't accurate. So lets stay real here... this isn't a space race and launching a satellite straight up into orbit isn't the same thing as ICBM technology, and it's not even close.
    I agree with the assessment of their current ICBMs but that they have finally managed to put a satellite in orbit (using the same lifting body as their ICBMs) is indicative that they are reaching a level of technological development that they can resolve and improve the imperfections they have in those missiles. Yes there are some additional hurdles to be resolved but you have solved a MAJORITY of them if you can successfully launch satellites.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

  6. #56
    GiancarloC
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    Re: North Korea Ends Peace Pacts With South Korea

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    I agree with the assessment of their current ICBMs but that they have finally managed to put a satellite in orbit (using the same lifting body as their ICBMs) is indicative that they are reaching a level of technological development that they can resolve and improve the imperfections they have in those missiles. Yes there are some additional hurdles to be resolved but you have solved a MAJORITY of them if you can successfully launch satellites.
    I don't agree and I think they are two different things. They launched a really antiquated satellite in orbit by sheer luck. It wasn't indicative of any great capability or developmental level. If anything, the Chinese are the ones that possess the real ability when it comes to ICBMs, but they are economic partners of the United States.

  7. #57
    auribus teneo lupum Stardreamer's Avatar
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    Re: North Korea Ends Peace Pacts With South Korea

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    I don't agree and I think they are two different things. They launched a really antiquated satellite in orbit by sheer luck. It wasn't indicative of any great capability or developmental level. If anything, the Chinese are the ones that possess the real ability when it comes to ICBMs, but they are economic partners of the United States.
    Which is why of course nobody was concerned at all when Sputnik was put into orbit.

    The N Koreans are using the SAME rocket for both, so how is it different technology?
    Last edited by Stardreamer; March 9th, 2013 at 08:54 PM. Reason: added observation
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

  8. #58
    GiancarloC
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    Re: North Korea Ends Peace Pacts With South Korea

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    Which is why of course nobody was concerned at all when Sputnik was put into orbit.
    Two different situations.

    This is just complete fear mongering. North Korea didn't put people in space and don't have a great space program at all.

    Russia's entire nuclear and space capability was and is still on a completely different level than North Korea. Heck, even China's own capability is on a different level.

    The N Koreans are using the SAME rocket for both, so how is it different technology?
    It isn't capable, nor is it effective technology. It's very old. And the US has defenses against it.
    Last edited by GiancarloC; March 9th, 2013 at 08:56 PM.

  9. #59
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    Re: North Korea Ends Peace Pacts With South Korea

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Two different situations.

    This is just complete fear mongering. North Korea didn't put people in space and don't have a great space program at all.

    Russia's entire nuclear and space capability was and is still on a completely different level than North Korea. Heck, even China's own capability is on a different level.



    It isn't capable, nor is it effective technology. It's very old. And the US has defenses against it.
    True enough the point is they are gradually improving whether you want to dismiss their successes as luck or not, the BMDS planners don't have that luxury.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

  10. #60
    GiancarloC
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    Re: North Korea Ends Peace Pacts With South Korea

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    True enough the point is they are gradually improving whether you want to dismiss their successes as luck or not, the BMDS planners don't have that luxury.
    Fine, but I'm not going to engage in irrational fear mongering either. And North Korea's military itself is not well equipped and has a serious lack of parts, despite its close ties to China.

  11. #61
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    Re: North Korea Ends Peace Pacts With South Korea

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    The South Koreans surpassed North Korea in military quality in the mid 1980s to be exact. And the South Korean airforce has a significant bombing capability. At any rate as however callous as they seem, I don't think North Korea is suicidal.
    Yup that's similarly how I feel about Iran. Everyone goes into paroxysms of insistent anxiety about how we must do something to stop these people before they obliterate the planet, when, regardless of their rhetoric, any attempt to do any of the things we ever fear they might try to do will result in their immediate annihiliation. I don't tend to assume that whole governments and societies are prepared to end themselves over an irrational act of spite.

  12. #62
    GiancarloC
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    Re: North Korea Ends Peace Pacts With South Korea

    The regime is about survival in Pyongyang.. all about survival, not committing total political suicide. I think Kim Jong Un would rather continue watching basketball.

  13. #63
    JockBoy87
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    Re: North Korea Ends Peace Pacts With South Korea

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    The regime is about survival in Pyongyang.. all about survival, not committing total political suicide. I think Kim Jong Un would rather continue watching basketball.
    Kim is also willing to risk more in a game of chicken, which makes his ouster practically impossible. There is a technical term for that, which I have forgotten. There is no way to get rid of him without serious death and destruction.

  14. #64
    JockBoy87
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    Re: North Korea Ends Peace Pacts With South Korea

    ^^^ Oh I just remembered. It's called brinkmanship.

  15. #65

    Re: North Korea Ends Peace Pacts With South Korea

    Their actions make more sense if you assume they are focused on forced reunification. SK and the US are not a threat to the regimes survival, but their economic policies are. An obvious solution is to reunifiy with the South with Kim as dictator and then redistribute the wealth of the greedy, rich south. The US is the major abstacle. Without it NK may think it could use nuclear blackmail to unify. The danger is that it may believe a small boat up the Potomac with a bomb will disable the US and give NK it's chance. How desperate is it?

    - - - Updated - - -
    Last edited by Benvolio; March 10th, 2013 at 12:43 PM.

  16. #66
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    Re: North Korea Ends Peace Pacts With South Korea

    The whole world is an "abstacle" to NK annexing SK. And "greedy, rich south"? What, now you don't like non-whites even when they are in their own country?

    And the fear mongering is giving me giggles
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  17. #67
    JockBoy87
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    Re: North Korea Ends Peace Pacts With South Korea

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Their actions make more sense if you assume they are focused on forced reunification. SK and the US are not a threat to the regimes survival, but their economic policies are. An obvious solution is to reunifiy with the South with Kim as dictator and then redistribute the wealth of the greedy, rich south. The US is the major abstacle. Without it NK may think it could use nuclear blackmail to unify. The danger is that it may believe a small boat up the Potomac with a bomb will disable the US and give NK it's chance. How desperate is it?
    If South Korea were Minute Maid, North Korea would be a lemonade stand. It's such a silly comparison to suggest industry ties in a united Korea would abandon loyalty to Seoul, and that is exactly what China fears. A loss of North Korean sovereignty would almost certainly mean US hegemony on the peninsula, removing a major check on US influence in the region.

  18. #68
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    Re: North Korea Ends Peace Pacts With South Korea

    The greedy rich south? How 'bout the greedy rich Kim? I'd argue with Ben some more, but I can't stop laughing at that idea.
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  19. #69
    GiancarloC
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    Re: North Korea Ends Peace Pacts With South Korea

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    If South Korea were Minute Maid, North Korea would be a lemonade stand. It's such a silly comparison to suggest industry ties in a united Korea would abandon loyalty to Seoul, and that is exactly what China fears. A loss of North Korean sovereignty would almost certainly mean US hegemony on the peninsula, removing a major check on US influence in the region.
    It's funny China feels that way... considering South Korea exports in excess of $100 billion to them... I have to look up imports lol. I always think money talks in the end. Is North Korea's economy even close to $100 billion? PRobably closer to $40 billion... if even that.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tw..._1950_1977.jpg

    Oh and if anyone's curious the two Koreas were pretty close GDP wise until about the 1970s. It was also at this time when South Korea surpassed North Korea militarily.
    Last edited by GiancarloC; March 10th, 2013 at 01:37 PM.

  20. #70
    JockBoy87
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    Re: North Korea Ends Peace Pacts With South Korea

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    It's funny China feels that way... considering South Korea exports in excess of $100 billion to them... I have to look up imports lol. I always think money talks in the end. Is North Korea's economy even close to $100 billion? PRobably closer to $40 billion... if even that.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tw..._1950_1977.jpg

    Oh and if anyone's curious the two Koreas were pretty close GDP wise until about the 1970s. It was also at this time when South Korea surpassed North Korea militarily.
    It's an ironic situation. Economic codependents are at each others necks for influence. The Miracle of the Han changed everything on the peninsula. The stagnant situation is at least peaceful, with the occasional plume of hot air.

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    The greedy rich south? How 'bout the greedy rich Kim? I'd argue with Ben some more, but I can't stop laughing at that idea.


    How could he be greedy? Corrupt capitalism makes way more than communism.

  21. #71
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    Re: North Korea Ends Peace Pacts With South Korea

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    It's an ironic situation. Economic codependents are at each others necks for influence. The Miracle of the Han changed everything on the peninsula. The stagnant situation is at least peaceful, with the occasional plume of hot air.



    How could he be greedy? Corrupt capitalism makes way more than communism.
    Yeah, How could he be greedy? He only has all the money in the country and lives in luxury while most everyone else eats tree bark.
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  22. #72

    Re: North Korea Ends Peace Pacts With South Korea

    I have no doubt the Kim regime subscribes to the ideology that the capitalist South has become prosperous because they are evil and greedy and stole it from the more virtuous, wise and compassionate North, with the aid of the evil greedy US. It is for the wiser, more intelligent and virtuous Kim regime to right the wrong by taxing the rich greedy Southerners and redistributing to achieve equality. Oh, and they think the Southerners are all racists.
    Last edited by Benvolio; March 10th, 2013 at 02:39 PM. Reason: E se

  23. #73
    JockBoy87
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    Re: North Korea Ends Peace Pacts With South Korea

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    Yeah, How could he be greedy? He only has all the money in the country and lives in luxury while most everyone else eats tree bark.
    That's just it. It's not a lot of money, compared to what it could be.

  24. #74
    GiancarloC
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    Re: North Korea Ends Peace Pacts With South Korea

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    I have no doubt the Kim regime subscribes to the ideology that the capitalist South has become prosperous because they are evil and greedy and stole it from the more virtuous, wise and compassionate North, with the aid of the evil greedy US. It is for the wiser, more intelligent and virtuous Kim regime to right the wrong by taxing the rich greedy Southerners and redistributing to achieve equality. Oh, and they think the Southerners are all racists.
    What's the point here? Is one attempting to say those on the left agree with the regime in North Korea? Hardly the case. Stop trying to engage in logical attacks and red herrings please.

  25. #75

    Re: North Korea Ends Peace Pacts With South Korea

    The thought processes of the Kim regime, which we can only estimate, are relevant to his thread.

  26. #76
    GiancarloC
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    Re: North Korea Ends Peace Pacts With South Korea

    The thought processes? I didn't realize we had people here who could read minds.

    http://www.dnaindia.com/world/report...friend_1809471

    China is already shifting its stance. This article is from a differing perspective. Not American media.

    One part of the article really interests me:

    At the same time, Chinese newspapers have been calling North Korea an ungrateful and unreliable liability. Businessmen and officials charged with building commercial ties don't even want to talk about the country.

    No one is suggesting China will abandon the regime of leader Kim Jong-un or even implement the new sanctions to the letter, but a relationship once regarded "as close as lips and teeth" is on thin ice as China's frustration grows.

    "I think it's remarkable and identifiable, the change in China's policy towards the Korean peninsula," said Zhu Feng, director of the International Security Programme at the elite Peking University.
    Chinese media is pissed off and most of its media is government controlled... so what is said is pretty much the official position. They've called North Korea ungrateful.
    Last edited by GiancarloC; March 10th, 2013 at 05:21 PM.

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    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: North Korea Ends Peace Pacts With South Korea

    I think all of South Korea's allies should withdraw from South Korea, and send a joint message to China:
    North Korea is your ally and your problem.
    Solve this such that South Korea is secure within its borders.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Re: North Korea Ends Peace Pacts With South Korea

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    That's just it. It's not a lot of money, compared to what it could be.
    It's more than enough money to keep the Kim family very very rich, and the fact remains, that if they allowed what is necessary for "what it could be" they'd have to share.
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  29. #79
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    Re: North Korea Ends Peace Pacts With South Korea

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    Well the did FINALLY get a satellite into orbit, after lying about the first one. Once you reach that threshold you have most of the technical issues with making a working ICBM licked.
    "What goes up must come down"... unless it's a satellite. If it's not a satellite, the next question is "Where?"

    Just because they can get a satellite into orbit doesn't mean they can make it fall where they want.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

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    Re: North Korea Ends Peace Pacts With South Korea

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    South Korea's military surpassed the North Korean's sometime ago, the south will most likely win any conflict now but Seoul would be destroyed in the initial missile exchanges so they would rather avoid it.
    If the South set their effort to it, they could make Seoul mostly safe from even the North's massive missile collection in a half dozen years (and enrich some US arms makers doing so). That would make an interesting of the North's sanity.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

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  31. #81
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    Re: North Korea Ends Peace Pacts With South Korea

    .
    I wonder if Kim Jong-un watches Fox? - which would explain his delusional beliefs that the U.S. is weak and that the President is incompetent and anti-military.

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    Re: North Korea Ends Peace Pacts With South Korea

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisrobin View Post
    .
    I wonder if Kim Jong-un watches Fox? - which would explain his delusional beliefs that the U.S. is weak and that the President is incompetent and anti-military.
    Probable especially after the Denis Rodman incident.

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    Re: North Korea Ends Peace Pacts With South Korea

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    I think all of South Korea's allies should withdraw from South Korea, and send a joint message to China:
    North Korea is your ally and your problem.
    Solve this such that South Korea is secure within its borders.
    You don't think that if all allies withdrew from South Korea, then China would love to see a unified Korea -- under North Korean leadership of course. I think a good reason there is such backing of North Korea and no hope for unification is because China fears Korean manufacturing prowess and will not tolerate a strong western ally on their border in a unified fashion. Imagine if Korea was unified, then all of both North and south investment in military was focused outward instead of inward.

    No China doesnt want that solution anymore than they want Taiwan to exist as their own entity.
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    Re: North Korea Ends Peace Pacts With South Korea

    The North Korean government is posturing for their own people in furtherance of keeping the US and the west the massive bogey man that justifies their repressive regime. It's a shell game. Bush did the same thing with Hussein lest any of you out there get delusions of immunity to that kind of thing.
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    Re: North Korea Ends Peace Pacts With South Korea

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyBob View Post
    Baby Kim is rattling his saber.

    They're pissed off that the new tougher sanctions include no sales of yachts and luxury cars to the NK elite. Whenever there are new sanctions NK whines for attention and talks tough.

    They're well aware if they carry out these threats South Korea, China and the USA would turn their little country into a parking lot for one of Seoul's shopping centers.
    Great post!

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    Re: North Korea Ends Peace Pacts With South Korea

    Oh, yeah, there's this. What time of day do we get nuked?
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  37. #87
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    Re: North Korea Ends Peace Pacts With South Korea

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    You don't think that if all allies withdrew from South Korea, then China would love to see a unified Korea -- under North Korean leadership of course. I think a good reason there is such backing of North Korea and no hope for unification is because China fears Korean manufacturing prowess and will not tolerate a strong western ally on their border in a unified fashion. Imagine if Korea was unified, then all of both North and south investment in military was focused outward instead of inward.

    No China doesnt want that solution anymore than they want Taiwan to exist as their own entity.
    My point is to stop engaging North Korea. It is a non-entity. China is the problem. It whines about refugees. It whines about the presence of western allies in South Korea and uses this as a pretext for maintaining North Korea as a buffer.

    The first whine is baseless; when the government of NK dissolves the refugees will become SK's problem, not China's. And the second pretext, security, is easily destroyed by withdrawing from the south.

    Beijing would shit themselves if they didn't have an excuse for inaction. The best course is to remove the pretext. China claims to be a regional power with the rights and obligations to ensure stability in its sphere. So let's stop playing games with a pissant ineffectual tyrant and up the ante to dealing directly with China: We're out, ensuring stability for South Korea is your problem. Do what you think is wise.

    Then move all the troops to somewhere else that makes china rather more uncomfortable and wait. I'm betting the Kims would be gone within a month.

    It is a significant escalation to hold China accountable like that, but the only way to get anything done i think.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Re: North Korea Ends Peace Pacts With South Korea

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    The South Koreans surpassed North Korea in military quality in the mid 1980s to be exact. And the South Korean airforce has a significant bombing capability. At any rate as however callous as they seem, I don't think North Korea is suicidal.
    People can be suicidal without realizing it, if they're too far out of tune with reality -- just look at what passes for economic policy in the GOP.

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Fine, but I'm not going to engage in irrational fear mongering either. And North Korea's military itself is not well equipped and has a serious lack of parts, despite its close ties to China.
    I read last year an estimate that while North Korea has a large army, and is short on equipment, what it really lacks is enough food, and the logistics to get food to the troops, for more than a couple of weeks maximum. And just as in the times of Caesar and Napoleon, an army marches on its stomach.

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    The thought processes? I didn't realize we had people here who could read minds.

    http://www.dnaindia.com/world/report...friend_1809471

    China is already shifting its stance. This article is from a differing perspective. Not American media.

    One part of the article really interests me:



    Chinese media is pissed off and most of its media is government controlled... so what is said is pretty much the official position. They've called North Korea ungrateful.
    More important than "ungrateful" is "unreliable". To a Maoist mind, that's just the click of a safety away from "liability".

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

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  39. #89
    GiancarloC
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    Re: North Korea Ends Peace Pacts With South Korea

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    People can be suicidal without realizing it, if they're too far out of tune with reality -- just look at what passes for economic policy in the GOP.
    No not in this case. The North Korean regime is all about survival. They'll scare their people into submission... even when their soldiers are starving. 500 calories on average? One could get that from one jelly donut. By the way, it's already Tuesday in North Korea... and most of monday has passed. No missiles... more just huffing and puffing lol.

    I read last year an estimate that while North Korea has a large army, and is short on equipment, what it really lacks is enough food, and the logistics to get food to the troops, for more than a couple of weeks maximum. And just as in the times of Caesar and Napoleon, an army marches on its stomach.
    Yes. It was uncorroborated in Wikipedia. I'll look it up further. I hear they may only last 7-10 days maximum in battle. North Korean regular soldiers only get 500 calories a day, while those in the DMZ get around 650 calories. The average person needs 1,500 (on average). All that while, the South Koreans are well fed, very well trained and have their own indigenous military complex, which is starting to produce jets and tanks.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KAI_T-50_Golden_Eagle - While most variants are a supersonic trainers, the FA-50 is the fighter jet variant. It's an indigenous design based on the F-16.

    More important than "ungrateful" is "unreliable". To a Maoist mind, that's just the click of a safety away from "liability".
    Of course... we're talking tens if not hundreds of billions of Chinese investments at stake as well as significant trade.
    Last edited by GiancarloC; March 11th, 2013 at 02:45 PM.

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    Re: North Korea Ends Peace Pacts With South Korea

    "We anticipate that any attempt by North Korea to violate the territorial integrity of South Korea will be met by a definitive response by China. We are grateful for the leadership China has shown in the region, and we fully expect China will continue to ensure stability on the Korean Peninsula such that South Korea's integrity, borders, and way of life are assured. For those reasons, and because of our confidence in China, we are happy to announce a complete withdrawal from South Korea of all our bases and military personnel, secure in the knowledge that North Korea cannot represent a threat so long as China continues to exercise its regional leadership effectively."

    This would of course up the stake considerably and put China's neck on the line if they fuck up or if North Korea fucked up on their behalf.

    I don't think the Chinese would shit themselves. I think they'd actually march into Pyongyang within a week.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  41. #91
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    Re: North Korea Ends Peace Pacts With South Korea

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    My point is to stop engaging North Korea. It is a non-entity. China is the problem. It whines about refugees. It whines about the presence of western allies in South Korea and uses this as a pretext for maintaining North Korea as a buffer.

    The first whine is baseless; when the government of NK dissolves the refugees will become SK's problem, not China's. And the second pretext, security, is easily destroyed by withdrawing from the south.

    Beijing would shit themselves if they didn't have an excuse for inaction. The best course is to remove the pretext. China claims to be a regional power with the rights and obligations to ensure stability in its sphere. So let's stop playing games with a pissant ineffectual tyrant and up the ante to dealing directly with China: We're out, ensuring stability for South Korea is your problem. Do what you think is wise.

    Then move all the troops to somewhere else that makes china rather more uncomfortable and wait. I'm betting the Kims would be gone within a month.

    It is a significant escalation to hold China accountable like that, but the only way to get anything done i think.
    I do like the though but where else would make the Chinese uncomfortable? Thailand happily involves itself in exercises every year but doesnt want troops on their land indefinitely nor would they like to piss on China's leg, we have been helping the Philippines but honestly the way to help them the most is to have less and less US military there AND they dont wanna piss off China either, Taiwan -- we would be at war in those thirty days you speak of because China considers Taiwan their prefect that is disillusioned, Japan already has our forces times two and are much more agressive at telling the CHinese to fuck off when they become bullies in the region....

    So i do like the idea but I doubt it would cause a capitulation by Kim or China because they would then fell no pressure. In fact, I bet they would be in South Korea the next day -- diplomatically -- saying "I'll make you a deal you can not refuse" (with an Italian mafia emphasis but still the Chinese accent...it would be funny, trust me)
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  42. #92
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    Re: North Korea Ends Peace Pacts With South Korea

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    I do like the though but where else would make the Chinese uncomfortable? Thailand happily involves itself in exercises every year but doesnt want troops on their land indefinitely nor would they like to piss on China's leg, we have been helping the Philippines but honestly the way to help them the most is to have less and less US military there AND they dont wanna piss off China either, Taiwan -- we would be at war in those thirty days you speak of because China considers Taiwan their prefect that is disillusioned, Japan already has our forces times two and are much more agressive at telling the CHinese to fuck off when they become bullies in the region....

    So i do like the idea but I doubt it would cause a capitulation by Kim or China because they would then fell no pressure. In fact, I bet they would be in South Korea the next day -- diplomatically -- saying "I'll make you a deal you can not refuse" (with an Italian mafia emphasis but still the Chinese accent...it would be funny, trust me)
    It depends on the conditions of the withdrawal; conditions that China need not agree to for them to be effective.

    It would also depend on their intrinsic motivations.
    • I just don't see China ever marching into SK. Can't even imagine it; it would doom them internationally.
    • This is not 1948 and South Korea is not Czechoslovakia - and of course China is a capitalist country with a stern monarchy that elects its king the same way the cardinals elect the pope; it is not stalinist Russia with an ideology to push.
    • They would sooner go into Taiwan, and they're not willing to do that. Going into SK would provoke a unilateral declaration of Taiwanese independence.


    So where would the troops go. I agree they should not be in the philippines or in thailand. No reason; no pay-off.
    a) they could stay home to save some money.
    b) kill 3 birds with one stone. Pakistan is kind of annoying right now. It's annoying to anyone whose country sent soldiers to Afghanistan. It always annoys India. Maybe some cooperation along the border of India/Pakistan between India and western troops would be just the thing. Except it should also be uncomfortably close to China's Tibetan border with India. So, poke Pakistan, please India, annoy China, and ultimately expose North Korea.

    My thesis is that strangely, the western presence in South Korea actually provides cover for North Korean shenanigans.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  43. #93
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    Re: North Korea Ends Peace Pacts With South Korea

    China marching to Seoul? Again there is perhaps over $100 billion in trade there alone. China is more friendly with South Korea than they are with Japan. Look at it this way, China isn't going to intervene militarily here. It just won't happen. They trade way too much with South Korea. By the way, after the Vietnam War ended there was another war between China and Vietnam, which ended very badly for the Chinese. One that very few talk about.

    At any rate, China is not the enemy here and is an economic partner to both the United States and South Korea. If they were to attack South Korea, their economy would take an enormous hit. They put money over old time relations at this point. When South Korea exports more than twice North Korea's entire GDP with China you know the Chinese are not going to be on North Korea's side here.

    China knows it cannot piss off the United States here, and is shifting its own policy. When your economy is tied to another, old relationships like that North Korea are left in the dust.
    Last edited by GiancarloC; March 11th, 2013 at 08:11 PM.

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    Re: North Korea Ends Peace Pacts With South Korea

    You both mistake what i said completely. They need not march anywhere.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
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    Re: North Korea Ends Peace Pacts With South Korea

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    It depends on the conditions of the withdrawal; conditions that China need not agree to for them to be effective.

    It would also depend on their intrinsic motivations.
    • I just don't see China ever marching into SK. Can't even imagine it; it would doom them internationally.
    • This is not 1948 and South Korea is not Czechoslovakia - and of course China is a capitalist country with a stern monarchy that elects its king the same way the cardinals elect the pope; it is not stalinist Russia with an ideology to push.
    • They would sooner go into Taiwan, and they're not willing to do that. Going into SK would provoke a unilateral declaration of Taiwanese independence.


    So where would the troops go. I agree they should not be in the philippines or in thailand. No reason; no pay-off.
    a) they could stay home to save some money.
    b) kill 3 birds with one stone. Pakistan is kind of annoying right now. It's annoying to anyone whose country sent soldiers to Afghanistan. It always annoys India. Maybe some cooperation along the border of India/Pakistan between India and western troops would be just the thing. Except it should also be uncomfortably close to China's Tibetan border with India. So, poke Pakistan, please India, annoy China, and ultimately expose North Korea.

    My thesis is that strangely, the western presence in South Korea actually provides cover for North Korean shenanigans.
    Pakistan has nothing to do with China and they would not give two flying fucks if we made it into a glass parking lot. Their aperture isn't that big yet. If we left the western pacific the Chinese would impose their will over trade, water access, and resources and they would do it with impunity. They are trying to do it with impunity every single day of the year now but they keep meeting us or CARAT allies and being turned back.

    I agree we embolden their ability to act like a delinquent child as a state. So when is the last time just ignoring delinquent children resulted in a excellent outcome? To China NK is a hammer or a saw. They use them like a tool. They would do the same to the Japanese, Filipinos, Thai, Laotiens and Vietnamese -- using NK as a tool to ignite regional calamity and then quell the violence and thereby instilling themselves as the regional super power.

    The only reason we aren't in another super power clutch for power with proxy wars across the globe is because as a nation the US refuses to give an inch anywhere the Chinese desire to establish themselves. I don't expect that chess game to change. We don't want cold war part deux. China is insidious and is trying to outmaneuver us in other areas -- like gathering up precious resource contracts around the globe. Fortunately if you can afford lawyers you can afford to forcibly break contracts. Oh and we have lawyers.

    Anyways I am way off topic. China would not solve NK because we left. They would use them. To establish the first ring of possessions and protectorates and then to establish the second. They already claim internationally that they own things that they never have...





    They wouldn't march anywhere near Korea... south or north. They would block shipping, harass supplies, stop and inspect shipping, conduct trade warfare and otherwise make life hell for those smaller players around them.
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


  46. #96
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    Re: North Korea Ends Peace Pacts With South Korea

    Quote Originally Posted by JayHawk View Post
    Anyways I am way off topic. China would not solve NK because we left. They would use them. To establish the first ring of possessions and protectorates and then to establish the second. They already claim internationally that they own things that they never have...

    They wouldn't march anywhere near Korea... south or north. They would block shipping, harass supplies, stop and inspect shipping, conduct trade warfare and otherwise make life hell for those smaller players around them.
    Well, that strategy is one leg of three of how China was basically built -- that and invaders being absorbed, along with forcible migration of masses Chinese into neighboring territories that were then just absorbed.

    If China really acted to subdue North Korea, the last is what I'd expect.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

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    *the number is now forty

  47. #97
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    Re: North Korea Ends Peace Pacts With South Korea

    I just heard on MSNBC that N Korea has threatened to attack US bases in Guam and Japan. He's gonna keep it up.
    Will look for a link.
    BEWARE! Harassing the Indian may result in sudden and severe hair loss.

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    Re: North Korea Ends Peace Pacts With South Korea

    Oh, I forgot to look for a link. While I was looking it up I found Daniel and forgot all about it.
    BEWARE! Harassing the Indian may result in sudden and severe hair loss.

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    Re: North Korea Ends Peace Pacts With South Korea

    Oh, I forgot to look for a link. While I was looking it up I found Daniel and forgot all about it.
    Here's 1. It told me I couldn't edit for 10 minutes then let me!

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/22/wo...ific.html?_r=0

    North Korea Threatens U.S. Military Bases in the Pacific
    By CHOE SANG-HUN
    Published: March 21, 2013

    SEOUL — North Korea on Thursday threatened to attack American military bases in Japan and on the Pacific island of Guam in retaliation for training missions by American B-52 bombers over the Korean Peninsula, while state radio blared air-raid warnings to the North Korean people.
    BEWARE! Harassing the Indian may result in sudden and severe hair loss.

  50. #100
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    Re: North Korea Ends Peace Pacts With South Korea

    Controlled insanity . . .


    So long as it stays controlled, no worries.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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