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  1. #51
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: Income Inequality Flash Video

    Quote Originally Posted by Durango95 View Post
    Life is random. What is your point?

    There are those born into difficult circumstances that are capable of lifting themselves out of said circumstances. There are those that cannot. Many burn through buckets of money they didn't earn. There are those born into very privileged circumstances that take a fortune and make a larger fortune. Then there are those that suffer from a myriad of problems...addictions, illness, poor business skills, poor choices of friends. Many lose buckets of money they didn't earn.
    This ignorant platitude/watercooler explanation of social darwinism fails to take into account that the structure of our society does not embrace open and free upward social mobility for all who try, and increasingly offers less upward mobility than each generation typically could expect for the generation after it for a great deal of American history up until the last several decades.

    As a million people pointed out before it actually started happening, the old slogan of "go to college" would mean nothing if a picture emerged where a majority of people had college educations. At that point you'd just have college educated people working as managers in McDonalds or department stores-- which actually is exactly what we're now seeing. What's the next hoop?

  2. #52

    Re: Income Inequality Flash Video

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    White guilt? Are you serious? I suffer from understanding that other people have experiences and walks of life different than mine and that everyone deserves to make a decent living from whatever they do as long as they work hard at it. It's not a mental disorder. It's called being understanding and realizing I'm not the only person in the universe. You should try it some time.
    I'll tell you what I understand. I understand that there are no guarantees in life. I understand that I worked very hard to get to where I am. I understand that my parents, because of their financial assets, paid taxes for public schools which I attended. I understand that there are parents, without those assets that did not pay taxes for public schools which their children attended right along side of me. I understand that every job I've ever had was gotten by me going hat in hand and asking for a job. I too worked as a janitor. I too saw those with a very rigid work ethic that worked very hard. I also saw people that were goldbrickers and thieves that didn't do their "fair" share and stole everything that wasn't nailed down.
    Only government can take perfectly good paper, cover it with perfectly good ink and make the combination worthless.

  3. #53

    Re: Income Inequality Flash Video

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    Life is random. So when the government shows up to randomly take more of your "hard earned" money to randomly give to others via social programs, you should sit back, relax, and realize that it is just your truth catching up to you, right?
    No. My truth would be to relocate elsewhere.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Did you just basically imply anyone doing well is white? Yes, yes I think you did.
    Your point is?
    Only government can take perfectly good paper, cover it with perfectly good ink and make the combination worthless.

  4. #54
    Sex God tigerfan482's Avatar
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    Re: Income Inequality Flash Video

    Quote Originally Posted by Durango95 View Post
    I'll tell you what I understand. I understand that there are no guarantees in life. I understand that I worked very hard to get to where I am. I understand that my parents, because of their financial assets, paid taxes for public schools which I attended. I understand that there are parents, without those assets that did not pay taxes for public schools which their children attended right along side of me. I understand that every job I've ever had was gotten by me going hat in hand and asking for a job. I too worked as a janitor. I too saw those with a very rigid work ethic that worked very hard. I also saw people that were goldbrickers and thieves that didn't do their "fair" share and stole everything that wasn't nailed down.
    Good. Then you understand that there are people out there working hard and being severely under-compensated for it. No one is advocating that janitors should be millionaires. What we are advocating is that someone should be able to be a hardworking janitor, if that's where their limited upward mobility has allowed them to reach, and shouldn't have to rely on government assistance just to make ends meet. You also seem to realize that those who are "goldbrickers and thieves" should be sent to prison where they belong.

    There is no reason that there should be a hardworking CEO making millions a year and, because of that, some hardworking janitor (who arguably contributes more work/benefit payoff to the system than a CEO does) doesn't make enough to get by.

  5. #55
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    Re: Income Inequality Flash Video

    Quote Originally Posted by Durango95 View Post
    Wealth is not inherently evil.
    That's a nice diversion from the topic. The problem is that reality has shown that serious wealth inequality consistently results in societal evils -- so while wealth itself is not evil, it certainly greases the rails.

    Quote Originally Posted by Durango95 View Post
    I came from humble circumstances and have managed to make a very nice living. I make more than my dad ever thought of making. I had no government assistance.
    No government school? No police protection? No public streets or roads? Wow.

    Quote Originally Posted by Durango95 View Post
    I now find myself after having worked many years to make something for myself, being vilified for having what I do have. I worked for it. If others want the same things then I suggest they work for it as well.
    The point is that the majority of the income of the wealthiest Americans is UNEARNED. It flows from government subsidies, rewards given merely because of wealth. One of those rewards, as recently noted by the US Attorney General, is being able to escape prosecution for heinous crimes.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  6. #56
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    Re: Income Inequality Flash Video

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    What you are both missing is that the reason WalMart and others can pay crap wages and get away with it is because there is a vast reservoir of unemployed and under employed people willing to work for such jobs. A few months ago the unemployed looking for work was at 14 million, not counting those who have given up looking, and another. They want a better life and should have a priority over those in other countries who want to come.
    Alas, liberals prefer the authoritarian answer. Lets allow million and millions to come in. Then let's use the law to pull down the successful half of the country and make sure they never get ahead again.
    Were it not for 'conservative' opposition in Congress, those liberals you deride would have successfully enabled the market to provide some eight million jobs over the last few years. By the evidence, it's conservatives who want lots of unemployed people.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  7. #57
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    Re: Income Inequality Flash Video

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    You keep setting up straw men arguments. No one has said that mere hard work will give you more than yor Dad or that any one who tries soars. On the contrary I said that the immigrants willing to work dirt cheap pull down the wages of every one without special education or skill. People in lower levels without work, compete with the next higher.
    But people with profitable education and skills and many people with their own businesses can still do very well, and millions do.
    Wages are low because employers pay not what work is worth, but what they can get away with.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  8. #58
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    Re: Income Inequality Flash Video

    Quote Originally Posted by Durango95 View Post
    There is no program that can instill a sense of accomplishment or ambition.
    Bullshit.

    MANY of the people of my dad's generation got their first sense of accomplishment and self-worth from government programs. That you can make this statement just shows how ignorant of history you are, especially because many of those who gained from those government programs went on with the confidence they learned, to start businesses that prospered and spread prosperity.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  9. #59
    Sex God tigerfan482's Avatar
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    Re: Income Inequality Flash Video

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Bullshit.

    MANY of the people of my dad's generation got their first sense of accomplishment and self-worth from government programs. That you can make this statement just shows how ignorant of history you are, especially because many of those who gained from those government programs went on with the confidence they learned, to start businesses that prospered and spread prosperity.
    Exactly. People should read up on the Civilian Conservation Corps. This lead top millions of people being given jobs and the ability to earn a living while improving the country. We need more programs like this. But don't hold your breath because Republicans believe the the private sector is our one and only savior.

  10. #60

    Re: Income Inequality Flash Video

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    That's a nice diversion from the topic. The problem is that reality has shown that serious wealth inequality consistently results in societal evils -- so while wealth itself is not evil, it certainly greases the rails.



    No government school? No police protection? No public streets or roads? Wow.



    The point is that the majority of the income of the wealthiest Americans is UNEARNED. It flows from government subsidies, rewards given merely because of wealth. One of those rewards, as recently noted by the US Attorney General, is being able to escape prosecution for heinous crimes.
    As to your first statement, it depends on whether or not you believe in evil and how that evil is defined. My parents paid taxes for those things. Government produces nothing. Well the current US Attorney General should surely know about that one, now shouldn't he.
    Only government can take perfectly good paper, cover it with perfectly good ink and make the combination worthless.

  11. #61
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: Income Inequality Flash Video

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    Exactly. People should read up on the Civilian Conservation Corps. This lead top millions of people being given jobs and the ability to earn a living while improving the country. We need more programs like this. But don't hold your breath because Republicans believe the the private sector is our one and only savior.
    Yup.

    My grandfather got his college education after serving in WWII, and financed his first house, on the G.I. Bill.

  12. #62
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: Income Inequality Flash Video

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Bullshit.

    MANY of the people of my dad's generation got their first sense of accomplishment and self-worth from government programs. That you can make this statement just shows how ignorant of history you are, especially because many of those who gained from those government programs went on with the confidence they learned, to start businesses that prospered and spread prosperity.
    I am sincerely surprised that you could speak so favourably about a government program other than roadbuilding and military defence.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  13. #63
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: Income Inequality Flash Video

    Quote Originally Posted by Durango95 View Post

    Your point is?
    That you are ignorant and don't base your conclusion on facts but instead on watercooler wisdom of how the world works.

  14. #64

    Re: Income Inequality Flash Video

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    Good. Then you understand that there are people out there working hard and being severely under-compensated for it. No one is advocating that janitors should be millionaires. What we are advocating is that someone should be able to be a hardworking janitor, if that's where their limited upward mobility has allowed them to reach, and shouldn't have to rely on government assistance just to make ends meet. You also seem to realize that those who are "goldbrickers and thieves" should be sent to prison where they belong.

    There is no reason that there should be a hardworking CEO making millions a year and, because of that, some hardworking janitor (who arguably contributes more work/benefit payoff to the system than a CEO does) doesn't make enough to get by.
    So what is your remedy? I am assuming it is some sort of government control of salary. What would be the bottom end for completely unskilled labor?
    Only government can take perfectly good paper, cover it with perfectly good ink and make the combination worthless.

  15. #65

    Re: Income Inequality Flash Video

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    That you are ignorant and don't base your conclusion on facts but instead on watercooler wisdom of how the world works.

    That there it is. LOL
    Only government can take perfectly good paper, cover it with perfectly good ink and make the combination worthless.

  16. #66
    Sex God tigerfan482's Avatar
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    Re: Income Inequality Flash Video

    Quote Originally Posted by Durango95 View Post
    So what is your remedy? I am assuming it is some sort of government control of salary. What would be the bottom end for completely unskilled labor?
    Simplified, yes. The federal minimum wage should be raised and tied to an inflationary calculation. Taxes on the wealthy should be raised and loopholes should be removed. They should be required to give back a proportionate amount to what they get out of the system. The same goes for businesses. This country gets wealthy off of the back of the lower and middle classes and then passes a disproportionate amount of that wealth to the upper classes. There needs to be a balancing factor in that equation.

  17. #67

    Re: Income Inequality Flash Video

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    Simplified, yes. The federal minimum wage should be raised and tied to an inflationary calculation. Taxes on the wealthy should be raised and loopholes should be removed. They should be required to give back a proportionate amount to what they get out of the system. The same goes for businesses. This country gets wealthy off of the back of the lower and middle classes and then passes a disproportionate amount of that wealth to the upper classes. There needs to be a balancing factor in that equation.

    Despite the fact that there are numerous studies that prove the minimum wage actually hurts the lower and middle class, what would you propose as this bottom wage. What metric would be used to determine it? What metric would be used to determine this elusive inflationary factor? I am assuming there would be salary caps as well. What would that be? What would that metric be? Who would establish this metric?

    You do realize that you are talking about income and not wealth. Are you proposing seizing bank accounts? If so, whose accounts would be seized? Would that metric be fluid? (You realize any metric in a socialist system HAS to be fluid as the coffers run dry.) What dollar amount of your bank account would you think was good for confiscation?

    Let's take you for instance. I am thinking you, like most that propose such things, do not think you personally will be affected by its implementation. Let's say you will. What salary would be fair for your type work? Let's say you currently make $100K per year. The powers that be say that is too much and think you should do the exact same work for $70K per year. Is that fair?

    Let's take a random job like dishwasher in a restaurant. This is a completely unskilled job. There are no requisites whatsoever other than the current age compliance. Currently it pays 7 bucks an hour which the powers that be determine to be an unlivable wage. It is elevated to $30 an hour. Because it is determined that is the best wage for the service provided. The dishwasher now makes $62400.00 a year. Feel better?

    We have to remember one thing. The very wealthy get to keep their money always. Always. Even those that steal the wealth from others in the name of fairness, keep the ill gotten gains FOR THEMSELVES. Always.
    Only government can take perfectly good paper, cover it with perfectly good ink and make the combination worthless.

  18. #68

    Re: Income Inequality Flash Video

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Bullshit.

    MANY of the people of my dad's generation got their first sense of accomplishment and self-worth from government programs. That you can make this statement just shows how ignorant of history you are, especially because many of those who gained from those government programs went on with the confidence they learned, to start businesses that prospered and spread prosperity.

    I am sure you think FDR was the greatest man ever. I do not share that valuation. You took my statement out of context. The prior statement said giveaway programs. Those of which you speak were "work" programs. The participants had to work for their stipend. My grandmothers both maternal and paternal, with many other family members participated in those programs. They would recount how hard they had to work.

    The jobs outdoors sometimes required uniforms which were included in the monthly allowance. Meals were even a part of the wage. Nothing was given away. My mother's mother worked in a sewing room which produced and repaired uniforms and various other things. She lived outside of the city so she had to walk 3 miles to catch the one and only bus to take her to her job.

    I agree with you. Work does indeed instill a sense of accomplishment. Sitting on one's rear-end doing nothing and receiving money does not instill anything but a sense of entitlement and victim-hood.
    Only government can take perfectly good paper, cover it with perfectly good ink and make the combination worthless.

  19. #69
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: Income Inequality Flash Video

    Quote Originally Posted by Durango95 View Post
    Despite the fact that there are numerous studies that prove the minimum wage actually hurts the lower and middle class, what would you propose as this bottom wage. What metric would be used to determine it? What metric would be used to determine this elusive inflationary factor? I am assuming there would be salary caps as well. What would that be? What would that metric be? Who would establish this metric?

    You do realize that you are talking about income and not wealth. Are you proposing seizing bank accounts? If so, whose accounts would be seized? Would that metric be fluid? (You realize any metric in a socialist system HAS to be fluid as the coffers run dry.) What dollar amount of your bank account would you think was good for confiscation?

    Let's take you for instance. I am thinking you, like most that propose such things, do not think you personally will be affected by its implementation. Let's say you will. What salary would be fair for your type work? Let's say you currently make $100K per year. The powers that be say that is too much and think you should do the exact same work for $70K per year. Is that fair?

    Let's take a random job like dishwasher in a restaurant. This is a completely unskilled job. There are no requisites whatsoever other than the current age compliance. Currently it pays 7 bucks an hour which the powers that be determine to be an unlivable wage. It is elevated to $30 an hour. Because it is determined that is the best wage for the service provided. The dishwasher now makes $62400.00 a year. Feel better?

    We have to remember one thing. The very wealthy get to keep their money always. Always. Even those that steal the wealth from others in the name of fairness, keep the ill gotten gains FOR THEMSELVES. Always.
    That's actually just not keeping up with current research. Not even any part of it.

    Let me refer you to The Economist at http://www.economist.com/news/financ...more-good-harm

    America’s academics still do not agree on the employment effects. But both sides have honed their methods and, in some ways, the gap between them has shrunk. Messrs Card and Krueger moved on to other work, but Arindrajit Dube at the University of Massachusetts-Amherst and Michael Reich of the University of California at Berkeley have generalised the case-study approach, comparing restaurant employment across all contiguous counties with different minimum-wage levels between 1990 and 2006. They found no adverse effects on employment from a higher minimum wage. They also argue that if research showed such effects, these mostly reflected other differences between American states and had nothing to do with the minimum wage.
    And there are just dozens of countries where people still earn more or less based on talent, in true capitalist fashion, but there is a much more reasonable gap between high and low incomes.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  20. #70

    Re: Income Inequality Flash Video

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Benvolio, you still haven't educated yourself on the Lump of Labour Fallacy and it shows.
    This discussion is about wages, not about numbers of jobs. I suggest you educate yourself on supply and demand. The laws of mathematics 101 deserve your time as well. If you have too many poor people, and bring in millions more, you have a lot more poor people than you did before.

  21. #71

    Re: Income Inequality Flash Video

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    That's actually just not keeping up with current research. Not even any part of it.

    Let me refer you to The Economist at http://www.economist.com/news/financ...more-good-harm



    And there are just dozens of countries where people still earn more or less based on talent, in true capitalist fashion, but there is a much more reasonable gap between high and low incomes.
    Thanks for the referral to a publication with a definite completely subjective point of view.
    Only government can take perfectly good paper, cover it with perfectly good ink and make the combination worthless.

  22. #72

    Re: Income Inequality Flash Video

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    So it isn't the availability of guns that makes the U.S. more violent, it's social immobility and extreme wealth distribution.
    The impacts are structurally clustered and interdependent.

    Wilkinson:

    Given that the social hierarchy is seen as a hierarchy from the most valued at the top, to
    the least valued at the bottom, it is easy to see how bigger status differences increase the
    evaluative threat and add to status competition and status insecurity. This perspective also
    explains why violence increases with greater inequality. The literature on violence points
    out how often issues of respect, loss of face, and humiliation, are the triggers to violence.
    Violence is more common were there is more inequality not only because inequality
    increases status competition, but also because people deprived of the markers of status
    (incomes, jobs, houses, cars, etc) become particularly sensitive to how they are seen.
    What hurts about having second rate possessions is being seen as a second rate person.
    http://www.thpc.scot.nhs.uk/Presenta.../Wilkinson.pdf

  23. #73
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    Re: Income Inequality Flash Video

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    That you are ignorant and don't base your conclusion on facts but instead on watercooler finger paint wisdom of how the world works.
    There... fixed it.

    Why should anyone have to know anything? - Sheldon Cooper

  24. #74
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    Re: Income Inequality Flash Video

    Quote Originally Posted by Durango95 View Post
    Thanks for the referral to a publication with a definite completely subjective point of view.
    Unlike your referral to... your own opinion?

    I am happy that most libertarians I meet manage to show themselves in such egocentric, self-serving and hateful light. "I made it, so anybody who doesn't should go fuck themselves, never mind that they might come from a way worse position than the one I started in". Off-topic, but are you also one of those guys who think bullied gay kids should just "suck it up" and "learn to work it out" instead of depend on help from outside/above?

    Like I said, this incredibly douchy image they produce makes me happy - prevents their zealot party from becoming popular ^_^
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  25. #75

    Re: Income Inequality Flash Video

    It is fond,liberal dogma that poverty and inequality breed crime, but that is not been the American experience. Our welfare system prevents real poverty but it has not reduced crime. On the contrary a better understanding is that children growing up on welfare develop a bad work ethic and find it hard to discipline themselves to working for average wages. If welfare gives the basics, why work for beginning wages which don't pay a lot more. A huge percentage of crime is by boys from single parent, i.e. welfare families. The difficulty of finding jobs above minimum wage for those without special education and skills is a major part of the problem.
    Last edited by Benvolio; March 9th, 2013 at 10:15 AM.

  26. #76
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    Re: Income Inequality Flash Video

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    This discussion is about wages, not about numbers of jobs. I suggest you educate yourself on supply and demand. The laws of mathematics 101 deserve your time as well. If you have too many poor people, and bring in millions more, you have a lot more poor people than you did before.
    Your position is that wages should be artificially inflated by creating a bubble of restricted labour supply. However you frame it as though this is somehow good for the overall economy. You are engaging in the Lump of Labour Fallacy, which applies equally in the scenario you propose.

    Artificial restrictions on the labour supply result, by design, in excluding better-qualified and more productive people from doing a given job. Over the long term, labour mobility always results in greater productivity, greater job satisfaction, higher pay, higher standards of living, higher return on capital inputs, an expanded tax base, and greater prosperity. Your policy prescriptions for immigration have nothing to do at all with maximizing economic opportunity.

    If you want to find another basis to oppose immigration, be my guest. Perhaps for example you might be dissatisfied with the table manners of Russians and conclude that the economic opportunity is not worth the disruption to the culture of fine dining you currently enjoy. Or maybe you can't stand the folk songs of the Swedish or the attire of the South Africans. Maybe those differences are just faaaaaaarrrr toooooo much for a pluralistic society with freedom of conscience and freedom of expression to endure.

    So make your trade-offs. But those trade-offs will be measured against the real economic benefits of labour mobility, and to make those trade-offs you will be sacrificing prosperity, not growing it in your magic insular bubble.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  27. #77

    Re: Income Inequality Flash Video

    Tell the 24 million unemployed and underemployed, and the huge permanent underclass, how their being pushed aside promotes job satisfaction, higher pay and, higher standards of living.

  28. #78
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Income Inequality Flash Video

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Tell the 24 million unemployed and underemployed, and the huge permanent underclass, how their being pushed aside promotes job satisfaction, higher pay and, higher standards of living.
    Tell them what? What should we tell them? That the republicans are helping them stay unemployed and underemployed? If Congress could get off its fat ass and pass some pro-jobs bills and stop cutting the public sector, unemployment would be below 7%. What's the huge permanent underclass? Something else made up off the top of one's head? Republicans don't care about job satisfaction, reducing unemployment and higher standards of living. Especially not with a democrat as President. In fact, republicans never cared about any of that... that's why the last republican president left this country in a big fucking economic mess. No thanks! We don't need that again!

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    Re: Income Inequality Flash Video

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Tell the 24 million unemployed and underemployed, and the huge permanent underclass, how their being pushed aside promotes job satisfaction, higher pay and, higher standards of living.
    I'd be glad to tell someone who just got laid off as a bag boy in a struggling grocery store that a new factory just opened with three hundred software engineers from India fresh off that immigrant boat, and now he gets his shift back because the managers of the grocery store have customers and a future again. I'd be glad to tell him to get his friends to apply, if they didn't already get their own jobs all back now that everyone is rehiring.

    You must be able to think of some circumstances where immigrants catalyse economic growth.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  30. #80

    Re: Income Inequality Flash Video

    I can imagine 300 Indian engineers starting a factory. In US, as I can imagine pigs flying, but the bulk of our immigrants are mostly poor and pooly educated. Why would Indians want to pay our labor expenses? I have always said we should allow highly educated people.

  31. #81
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    Re: Income Inequality Flash Video

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    I can imagine 300 Indian engineers starting a factory. In US, as I can imagine pigs flying, but the bulk of our immigrants are mostly poor and pooly educated. Why would Indians want to pay our labor expenses? I have always said we should allow highly educated people.
    I guess some thrive on stereotypes. Many immigrants who come to the US end up working in factories. I mean come on...

    So those with little education should be shut out and not allowed to enter this country?

    http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/his...mmigration.cfm

    Yeah kinda like those dirty uneducated Italians that came to this country... and many of them started many businesses as time went on.



    Some very big businesses.

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    Re: Income Inequality Flash Video

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    I can imagine 300 Indian engineers starting a factory. In US, as I can imagine pigs flying, but the bulk of our immigrants are mostly poor and pooly educated. Why would Indians want to pay our labor expenses? I have always said we should allow highly educated people.
    You paint with a broad brush sir. You also seem to be confusing the terms illegal immigrants and immigrants. This country was built by immigrants. Great contributions have been made by immigrants. And even to this day, immigrants contribute greatly to our society and our economy.

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    Re: Income Inequality Flash Video

    Quote Originally Posted by Durango95 View Post
    Government produces nothing.
    This is a demonstrably false proposition elevated to mythical proportions/value by narrow ideology.

    I have a cousin who worked for years at Hanford, who could sit back and list gobs of things the government produced. I have a sister-in-law who works at Boeing, who could do the same. I have an uncle in the Navy who could and extensively to those lists.

    The fallacy in this ideological gambit is that it is turning an ought into an is: the belief is that government should produce nothing, but that is turned into a contention that government does produce nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    I am sincerely surprised that you could speak so favourably about a government program other than roadbuilding and military defence.
    Then you're being forgetful. Related to the above, I have long maintained that there is a proper place for government programs to set up the private sector to generate jobs or even entire new sorts of business -- so long as they then get out of the way once things are going.

    Quote Originally Posted by Durango95 View Post
    Despite the fact that there are numerous studies that prove the minimum wage actually hurts the lower and middle class, what would you propose as this bottom wage.
    What those studies tend to show is that a rise in the minimum wage temporarily harms a certain (few) set of jobs at the bottom of the economic ladder. Longer term, raising the minimum wage does wonders for the bottom end.

    Quote Originally Posted by Durango95 View Post
    Are you proposing seizing bank accounts? If so, whose accounts would be seized?
    There are circumstances in which that would be appropriate, considering that in effect much of the wealth currently heald by the utmost top portion has come to them by virtue of government coercion which had diverted wealth their way by means of inequitable tax law. What has been seized through use of coercion may legitimately be returned via force in response.

    That in turn answers your second question: the wealth of those who have unjustly benefited from government coercion should be seized and distributed back -- though since it would be extremely difficult to properly determine who should get the legal plunder as it is retrieved, to should be spent on infrastructure which would most benefit those at the bottom. (And since history demonstrates that income increases to those at the bottom trickle back upward even without government coercion, those at the top shouldn't complain about this process of justice.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Durango95 View Post
    We have to remember one thing. The very wealthy get to keep their money always. Always. Even those that steal the wealth from others in the name of fairness, keep the ill gotten gains FOR THEMSELVES. Always.
    THe tragedy is that today's GOP believes that they should continue to do so, even if their money is unearned, ill-gotten, and flowing from government coercion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Durango95 View Post
    I am sure you think FDR was the greatest man ever. I do not share that valuation.
    FDR was a man who was a hero for saving the nation from collapse, but a complete villain for turning temporary (and justifiable) expedience into permanent policy. Short-term, he saved the country, but long-term sent it toward doom.

    Quote Originally Posted by Durango95 View Post
    I agree with you. Work does indeed instill a sense of accomplishment. Sitting on one's rear-end doing nothing and receiving money does not instill anything but a sense of entitlement and victim-hood.
    And that's why government intervention in times of crisis or to initiate useful enterprises the private sector hasn't bothered to do is appropriate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Unlike your referral to... your own opinion?

    I am happy that most libertarians I meet manage to show themselves in such egocentric, self-serving and hateful light. "I made it, so anybody who doesn't should go fuck themselves, never mind that they might come from a way worse position than the one I started in". Off-topic, but are you also one of those guys who think bullied gay kids should just "suck it up" and "learn to work it out" instead of depend on help from outside/above?

    Like I said, this incredibly douchy image they produce makes me happy - prevents their zealot party from becoming popular ^_^
    If we libertarians could throw out the (Randian) "objectivists", we'd have the best program around.
    Last edited by Kulindahr; March 9th, 2013 at 07:47 PM.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Income Inequality Flash Video

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    It is fond,liberal dogma that poverty and inequality breed crime, but that is not been the American experience. Our welfare system prevents real poverty but it has not reduced crime. On the contrary a better understanding is that children growing up on welfare develop a bad work ethic and find it hard to discipline themselves to working for average wages. If welfare gives the basics, why work for beginning wages which don't pay a lot more. A huge percentage of crime is by boys from single parent, i.e. welfare families. The difficulty of finding jobs above minimum wage for those without special education and skills is a major part of the problem.
    Non-sequitur.

    This is why Bill Clinton and Democrats went for welfare reforms back then. The free-handout welfare programs you imagine here no longer exist unless states choose to have them.

    BTW, the current minimum wage is about right for those with no skills whatsoever. OTOH, someone here mentioned that washing dishes is an "unskilled" job -- yet I can attest that this is not so, having had to train people to wash dishes and fire one who couldn't achieve sufficient skill (admittedly, by that measure very few jobs are unskilled)..

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Income Inequality Flash Video

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Artificial restrictions on the labour supply result, by design, in excluding better-qualified and more productive people from doing a given job. Over the long term, labour mobility always results in greater productivity, greater job satisfaction, higher pay, higher standards of living, higher return on capital inputs, an expanded tax base, and greater prosperity. Your policy prescriptions for immigration have nothing to do at all with maximizing economic opportunity.
    I point out in passing that government licensing falls into the category of artificially restricting the labor supply.

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Tell the 24 million unemployed and underemployed, and the huge permanent underclass, how their being pushed aside promotes job satisfaction, higher pay and, higher standards of living.
    The size of the economic underclass is directly related to the flow of unearned income to the wealthy.

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    I would simply like to point out that everyone is attempting to have a reason and fact-based debate with someone who has already stated that white people who try will do alright and everyone who fails is a minority or a loser and/or living off the government...
    No, that's "white culture"... which if course ignores the fact that the process of assimilation guarantees that said culture grows ever less "white".

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Income Inequality Flash Video

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    You must be able to think of some circumstances where immigrants catalyse economic growth.
    I can think of one from each of this country's major periods of history (pre-Civil War, CW to WWII, after).

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Income Inequality Flash Video

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    If we libertarians could throw out the (Randian) "objectivists", we'd have the best program around.
    Let me know when you do. Cause for now it sounds just like a bunch of mean self-centered bitches who don't want anyone to get anything "for free" for fear that it will somehow steal something from them. You are the only libertarian I know who doesn't fit this picture.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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    Re: Income Inequality Flash Video

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    You paint with a broad brush sir. You also seem to be confusing the terms illegal immigrants and immigrants. This country was built by immigrants. Great contributions have been made by immigrants. And even to this day, immigrants contribute greatly to our society and our economy.
    Indeed. In fact, legislation supported by President Obama but rejected by Republicans, which would have allowed more visitors to become immigrants, would have resulted in the creation of several million more American jobs over the next decade. I'd call that a great contribution pissed on by de facto fascists.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Income Inequality Flash Video

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Let me know when you do. Cause for now it sounds just like a bunch of mean self-centered bitches who don't want anyone to get anything "for free" for fear that it will somehow steal something from them. You are the only libertarian I know who doesn't fit this picture.
    If it weren't for the "selfishness is the greatest virtue" Randians, the Libertarian Party would likely be the doom of the GOP, as many actual libertarians remain Republicans because they can't stomach the total lack of morals that such creatures foster. In reality, most of today's so-called libertarians are actually propertarians, who exalt the acquisition and retention of property above all else -- ignoring the fact that such a program is certain doom for actual liberty.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  40. #90
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    Re: Income Inequality Flash Video

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    I point out in passing that government licensing falls into the category of artificially restricting the labor supply.
    Efficient licensing (which government may or may not opt to do, depending on the expectations of voters) would restrict only those behaviours found to be economically damaging. Certainly in a free market, people could agree through a contract to limit economically damaging behaviours. However, negotiating and establishing this on a contract-by-contract basis may be inefficient and in itself economically damaging. That is where regulation can provide a baseline.

    For example, I could negotiate a contract with my doctor specifying certain performance expectations and qualifications that another patient might not have. But in requiring my doctor to have specific training, two other factors impose:
    • As a non-expert, I and other patients are at a disadvantage in knowing what kind of training to specify in a one-off contract;
    • It is reasonable to ask whether another patient would want the freedom to have an unskilled and untrained doctor performing critical treatments.


    Since the number of patients whose economic freedom would be constrained by the inability to pick an incompetent doctor is vanishingly small, and since the individual consumer is beset with problems in negotiating a private contract, a regulation provides a baseline that reduces economic damage. (and saves lives, but that's separate from the economic freedom argument.)
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Re: Income Inequality Flash Video

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    You paint with a broad brush sir. You also seem to be confusing the terms illegal immigrants and immigrants. This country was built by immigrants. Great contributions have been made by immigrants. And even to this day, immigrants contribute greatly to our society and our economy.
    Benvolio has made it persistently clear he doesn't recognize any actual difference, and certainly no difference when it comes to "they take American jobs." You could let 100 million illegal non English speaking unskilled immigrants into the country tomorrow and it would make absolutely no difference whatsoever to the software engineer job you're applying for tomorrow. Benvolio suffers under the delusion that Americans en masse are trying to work for agribusiness or as daily laborers in front of Home Depot or even as fast food minimum wage workers, and are being denied those jobs because immigrants take them. Equally, he suffers under the delusion that if the people working these jobs had the surname Smith instead of Gonzales that the employers would suddenly pay their fry cook more.
    Last edited by xbuzzerx; March 10th, 2013 at 09:28 AM.

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    Re: Income Inequality Flash Video

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    If it weren't for the "selfishness is the greatest virtue" Randians, the Libertarian Party would likely be the doom of the GOP, as many actual libertarians remain Republicans because they can't stomach the total lack of morals that such creatures foster. In reality, most of today's so-called libertarians are actually propertarians, who exalt the acquisition and retention of property above all else -- ignoring the fact that such a program is certain doom for actual liberty.
    Ayn Rand was a propaganda hack, who blew sunshine up the asses of the right. I might have forgiven her the blatant ass kissing, if she'd had even a touch of the artiste, but no, no dice.

    Just the reactionary anti-communist homophobe who never figured out that her mind was in a box.
    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

  43. #93

    Re: Income Inequality Flash Video

    You cannot logically talk about income inequality--the subject of this thread-- without talking about the massive influx of new poor. You cannot talk about your boat filling with water without mentioning the hole in the bottom. The liberal answer is, don't plug the hole, leave the hole and pull down the sails.

    [COLOR="silver"]- - - Updated - - -[/

  44. #94
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    Re: Income Inequality Flash Video

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    You cannot logically talk about income inequality--the subject of this thread-- without talking about the massive influx of new poor. You cannot talk about your boat filling with water without mentioning the hole in the bottom. The liberal answer is, don't plug the hole, leave the hole and pull down the sails.

    [COLOR="silver"]- - - Updated - - -[/
    No. The liberal answer is "hey, how about we help the people on the sinking boat get onto this huge cruise ship we have over here with only 10 people on it." The conservative answer is "we'll let them float in the water next to us if they are able to make it close enough. But they need to bring their own flotation device because we aren't giving them any of our's."

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    Re: Income Inequality Flash Video

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    You cannot logically talk about income inequality--the subject of this thread-- without talking about the massive influx of new poor. You cannot talk about your boat filling with water without mentioning the hole in the bottom. The liberal answer is, don't plug the hole, leave the hole and pull down the sails.
    What about the influx of new rich? Of new educated? Of new knowledge, skills and innovation? Sugarplum, that's the ONLY way a country really ever evolves. And historically, that's definitely how the US has ALWAYS evolved - through influx of new people to bring new ideas and new blood. You think of hordes of barbaric brown people coming from the south when you say "immigration" when that's a negligibly small percentage of the actual immigration into the US.

    I am an immigrant. [Text: Removed], but I am a highly skillful professional (so far, by all accounts, more skilled than you) and I benefit the community I am currently living in through my skills. I compete for every position I take same as everyone else, and I am picked because I bring competitive skills. Not because some black magic makes people ignore Americans in favor of evil immigrants.

    Oh, and I'm also white. [Text: Removed]
    Last edited by opinterph; March 12th, 2013 at 05:08 PM. Reason: removed demeaning personal characterizations; baiting remarks
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  46. #96

    Re: Income Inequality Flash Video

    This thread is about the increasing mass of poor people at the bottom, who are, without doubt being held down by the need to compete for the jobs which do not require extensive education or skills.

  47. #97
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Income Inequality Flash Video

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    Ayn Rand was a propaganda hack, who blew sunshine up the asses of the right. I might have forgiven her the blatant ass kissing, if she'd had even a touch of the artiste, but no, no dice.

    Just the reactionary anti-communist homophobe who never figured out that her mind was in a box.
    This. And beyond the fact that she was a complete bullshit artist that lied to her followers. I can't believe people cite or even talk about Ayn Rand. And libertarians are NOT moderates, NEVER will be moderates and the philosophy itself isn't a moderate one. And I can assure libertarianism is a very small portion of the population. If they were so active they would vote for the libertarian party a bit more than they have. Or libertarians are just lazy voters who talk a lot but don't show up to the polls.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    You cannot logically talk about income inequality--the subject of this thread-- without talking about the massive influx of new poor. You cannot talk about your boat filling with water without mentioning the hole in the bottom. The liberal answer is, don't plug the hole, leave the hole and pull down the sails.

    [COLOR="silver"]- - - Updated - - -[/
    What a crock of nonsense. Tell that to the millions of poor Italians and Irish immigrants who came to this country and made something of themselves. Why can't Latinos do the same? Oh wait, many Latinos actually are and many are opening up businesses. There goes that fucking argument.

  48. #98

    Re: Income Inequality Flash Video

    No tigersfan, your analogy fails to account for all the masses of additional people the liberals want on the ship before the drowning. You more interested in sinking the ship than in saving the drowning.

  49. #99
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    Re: Income Inequality Flash Video

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    No tigersfan, your analogy fails to account for all the masses of additional people the liberals want on the ship before the drowning. You more interested in sinking the ship than in saving the drowning.
    Wow can one not respond with another red herring? The people damaging America are from within... and they sit in Wall Street and in the House of Representatives. Lets take off the blinders.

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    Re: Income Inequality Flash Video

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    This thread is about the increasing mass of poor people at the bottom, who are, without doubt being held down by the need to compete for the jobs which do not require extensive education or skills.
    Fail.

    The thread is actually about income inequality in the US, and not about your delusional nightmares about the brown horde.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

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