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  1. #1
    Coward92
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    What is internalized homophobia?

    I am not aware what that is, and where else could I get more valid information than here?

    I see this expression thrown around here a lot, and I wish to learn what it is.
    Please tell me.

  2. #2
    Porn Star Brian Smith's Avatar
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    Re: What is internalized homophobia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coward92 View Post
    I am not aware what that is, and where else could I get more valid information than here?
    Would Oxford do?

    http://her.oxfordjournals.org/content/15/1/97.full

    Internalized homophobia is often associated with attempting to distance oneself from things that are associated in society with being "gay," and this could include going to the gym obsessively or trying to imitate straight homophobes by sneering at "effeminate twinks." Internalized homophobia is a lot of the reason that some gay guys throw off kind of hard on transsexuals. They are trying to redirect the homophobia they have been subjected to in society that they have internalized deep within themselves.

    Internalized racism can cause similar things: sometimes black people throw off on gay people, hoping that somehow, if they identify with the "white oppressor," the white oppressor will be more accepting toward them. They pick up an association between "being white" and being a bigoted jerk, and they have a weird concept that they can be "more white" and "less black" by being bigoted jerks. They don't even really quite realize they are doing this. This is not anywhere near as bad as it was a few years ago, thanks to some old guard black activists realizing it was a problem and stepping up to do something about it.

    Anyway, another example of internalized homophobia is thinking of being gay in mostly negative terms. Take, for example, the behavior of engaging in anonymous unprotected sex. Because the negative stereotype of gay men is that they are all sexual hedonists (in the negative sense of the word "hedonism," not in the sober philosophical sense), the gay man who is suffering from internalized homophobia grows up with the belief that this is what "being gay" must mean.

    But it's really a subject that, in academic circles, is still being studied.

  3. #3
    Coward92
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    Re: What is internalized homophobia?

    So it basically means a set of behavioural patterns which create the illusion of being normal and accepted by a certain group, while in fact the performing individual knows he is not "normal"?

  4. #4
    Porn Star Brian Smith's Avatar
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    Re: What is internalized homophobia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coward92 View Post
    So it basically means a set of behavioural patterns which create the illusion of being normal and accepted by a certain group, while in fact the performing individual knows he is not "normal"?
    Well, that's only one way it can be expressed. Sometimes, you run into gay guys who suffer from all kinds of hypochondria, and they keep going to see psychiatrists because they just "know" they are somehow screwed-up mentally.

    Or it could come out as anorexia: growing up in a homophobic environment might leave you feeling like maybe you are ugly somehow, and you might keep looking in the mirror to figure out what's wrong. The obvious answer? "Starve yourself pretty."

    It could be expressed by obsessing over the very fact that you are gay and speculating endlessly about how to categorize and sort gay people into different groups, such as distinguishing between "twinks" and "bears" and crap like that. It is not that these are bad things to do, but homophobia in society makes us feel anxious about being gay to the point where we can often over-analyze, sometimes to the point of being silly. If we can get past our internalized homophobia, we realize that what matters is what is on the inside, underneath those things.

    I really suggest reading that thing I linked you to. It really does a much better job of discussing it than I am.

  5. #5
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: What is internalized homophobia?

    Internalized homophobia, very simply put, is a gay man hating certain aspects of himself and other gay people because of societal preprogramming. Often the violent dislike of "femme" guys is a sign of that, as one example, or the severe dislike of "labels" (code for "labels that make me seem not straight), because internalized homophobia tells gay guys that heteronormativity is "right" and homosexual "behavior" is "wrong".

    Internalized homophobia is not exactly the same as homophobia, but in a way it can be said to be the gay equivalency of homophobia. The problem with it is that it's often subconscious and unrecognized by the guy who has it. Which is MOST gay guys really, even though usually it is a minor thing.

    At its core, internalized homophobia is a gay person who subconsciously buys into the straight idea that being gay is lesser than being straight.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  6. #6

    Re: What is internalized homophobia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Internalized homophobia, very simply put, is a gay man hating certain aspects of himself and other gay people because of societal preprogramming. Often the violent dislike of "femme" guys is a sign of that, as one example, or the severe dislike of "labels" (code for "labels that make me seem not straight), because internalized homophobia tells gay guys that heteronormativity is "right" and homosexual "behavior" is "wrong".
    Everything is based upon societal programming. There is "proper" way to act anything. Homosexuality does not involve femininity. It does not mean "camp"-ness. It means same sex attraction.

    Sorry to break this to you, but labels are made up. They are specific to one's own culture. What is "gay" in one culture may not be in another. That is just how it works. Even with homosexuality (the real behaviors) the labels are different between different groups. That is why MSM is used as a clinical term.

    Much of what is labeled as "homophobia" has nothing to with homosexuality at all. It has to do with gender roles (also made up) and pushing social boundaries on social interaction.

    This is not to say that people do not deny feelings because of social pressure. However, that does not mean that a denial of labels or a refusal to adopt stereotypes (many of which would be considered offensive in more enlightened eras) should be viewed as "homophobic."

  7. #7
    Coward92
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    Re: What is internalized homophobia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Smith View Post

    Or it could come out as anorexia: growing up in a homophobic environment might leave you feeling like maybe you are ugly somehow, and you might keep looking in the mirror to figure out what's wrong. The obvious answer? "Starve yourself pretty."

    I really suggest reading that thing I linked you to. It really does a much better job of discussing it than I am.
    It is scary but the above phrase applies to me perfectly.
    I often feel ugly and deformed. It is my utmost desire to be admired for my good looks, yet I rarely feel good-looking. When someone admires my mental abilities or my emotional side I secretly think "yes yes but tell me that you like my body"
    I also noticed that the more and more I approach the "ideal" body type the more and more shallow and empty I become.

    I would prefer to discuss the matter with organic beings.

  8. #8
    Coward92
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    Re: What is internalized homophobia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Internalized homophobia, very simply put, is a gay man hating certain aspects of himself and other gay people because of societal preprogramming. Often the violent dislike of "femme" guys is a sign of that, as one example, or the severe dislike of "labels" (code for "labels that make me seem not straight), because internalized homophobia tells gay guys that heteronormativity is "right" and homosexual "behavior" is "wrong".

    Internalized homophobia is not exactly the same as homophobia, but in a way it can be said to be the gay equivalency of homophobia. The problem with it is that it's often subconscious and unrecognized by the guy who has it. Which is MOST gay guys really, even though usually it is a minor thing.

    At its core, internalized homophobia is a gay person who subconsciously buys into the straight idea that being gay is lesser than being straight.
    I do not hate femminine gays I just don't like them. I don't find them attractive either.
    I however did hate myself to the very core in an earlier stage of my life.
    It is weird to think about it but sometimes I feel a fragment of guilt and shame when I am truly myself. I cut ties with religion recently to stop that from happening but there remains a piece of painful remorse, especially when someone I care and trust turns out to be someone who can't treat me the same way as he did when he didn't know I was gay.

  9. #9
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: What is internalized homophobia?

    Yes, what you describe are aspects of internalized homophobia Nothing to be ashamed of, really, almost everyone has those.

    Btw, there is a level of femininity that I find incredibly sexy in a guy. Once he starts giving me girl, I stop finding it sexy, but it's simply because I stop seeing him as male at that point. But actually, even with going to bars once or twice a week, I barely ever see guys that are THAT feminine.

    And I see no reason to not like femme boys.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  10. #10
    mitchymo
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    Re: What is internalized homophobia?

    I went to see a counsellor when i was 21, on the advice of a friend. I was feeling pretty down and very much in my shell. During the meeting, i was told that i had internalised homophobia. The counsellor, who was obviously gay, preceded to tell me how being gay was 'alright, it's ok'. I felt patronised somewhat actually. In the end, after just two sessions, i chose to stop going. In my head, being told its ok to be gay, by someone who themself is gay, is about as much use as a child molestor being told its ok, by another child molestor. He was hardly going to tell me anything different. Furthermore, it wasn't being gay that i was having trouble with in the end, it was accepting the fact that i'm not stereotypical, and that there are plenty of other guys who aren't. I just needed to know that i wasn't alone as a non-stereotypical gay guy, rather than just a gay guy. The internalised homophobia wasn't existent because i hated effeminate men, but because i was just lost, not fitting in with either straight, or gay men, in my mind. That essentially leaves a whole of darkness where resentment builds up. You know, 'why can't you be more like me?' so that i don't feel so alone mentality. But then, when you become exposed to a more diverse group of gay people, you realise that nobody needs to be more like you, because there are already plenty of people who are, its just some are more visible than others.

  11. #11
    Coward92
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    Re: What is internalized homophobia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Yes, what you describe are aspects of internalized homophobia Nothing to be ashamed of, really, almost everyone has those.

    Btw, there is a level of femininity that I find incredibly sexy in a guy. Once he starts giving me girl, I stop finding it sexy, but it's simply because I stop seeing him as male at that point. But actually, even with going to bars once or twice a week, I barely ever see guys that are THAT feminine.

    And I see no reason to not like femme boys.
    The last guy I dated was quite feminine too and it totally worked for the first 2 dates but after that the magic was gone.

    "Once he starts giving me girl" - I don't understand what did you mean by that part.

    I find masculine, or intellectual men almost irresistible. I shamelessly flirted with my physics teacher just the other day but I felt pretty bad after the class was over. I don't even know what I was thinking. My friends even asked what the hell was I doing. (They know I'm gay)

    I am not sure, I just got captured by is presence I guess. He was masculine, smart and cute, and I wanted to let him know that it's working for me.

    Oh he is not really my teacher though. He is only a replacement teacher and I will never see him again.
    I often feel lke it's not worth it to be gay, because all I get is crapload of people who find me "notgood enough" and I have this deep fear of dying alone.

  12. #12
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: What is internalized homophobia?

    Well, when I see a guy and I think "you're a girl", then he's giving me girl. Like a stripper I knew once. He was the hottest piece of ass when he was standing still and just talking, but when he started dancing, every move he made, his entire body language, was not "feminine", but FEMALE. So that put me off.

    And our tastes in men are also defined by the presence, lack or degree of our internalized homophobia. If you challenge yourself and start looking for attractive qualities in feminine men, you will quickly find them.

    Of course, some stereotypes apply. I am mostly a top, so to me, a feminine guy would be hotter than to someone who mostly bottoms. Gender roles aren't dead after all, and won't be for generations yet...
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  13. #13
    Porn Star Brian Smith's Avatar
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    Re: What is internalized homophobia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coward92 View Post
    I also noticed that the more and more I approach the "ideal" body type the more and more shallow and empty I become.
    Well, I'm fairly attractive. Although I'm not as twinky as I was five years ago, I have never gone out to the bar and slept in my own house that night. I've let myself go a little bit lately because I've been in a relationship for a while, but I'm hardly a troll.

    However, I feel that I do have a depth of character, and I feel that I am an intelligent and introspective sort of person.

    That "shallow" feeling is the feeling of letting go. It's taking the pressure of examining yourself down a notch and giving you a chance to breathe. Self-examination is a good thing. However, you need a break once in a while. You need time to spend just being a flesh-and-blood human being. Having that need doesn't make you "shallow" or "empty."

  14. #14
    Coward92
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    Re: What is internalized homophobia?

    So you say that I shouldn't think so much about who and what I am, but just simply living my life an interacting as I see fit in any given moment?

  15. #15
    Coward92
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    Re: What is internalized homophobia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Well, when I see a guy and I think "you're a girl", then he's giving me girl. Like a stripper I knew once. He was the hottest piece of ass when he was standing still and just talking, but when he started dancing, every move he made, his entire body language, was not "feminine", but FEMALE. So that put me off.

    And our tastes in men are also defined by the presence, lack or degree of our internalized homophobia. If you challenge yourself and start looking for attractive qualities in feminine men, you will quickly find them.

    Of course, some stereotypes apply. I am mostly a top, so to me, a feminine guy would be hotter than to someone who mostly bottoms. Gender roles aren't dead after all, and won't be for generations yet...

    It is another thing I do not quite understand. Most gays have this tendency to define themselves by the role they prefer in a sexual encounter (top. ,verstaile, bottom) What about those of us who doesn't know how we feel about this? What if I don't even want to try it?
    I have noticed attractive qualities in feminine gays, but even those qualities were undeniably masculine. Beards, muscles, the cute smile etc.

    I wish I knew a stripper who could teach me how to dance.

  16. #16
    Porn Star Brian Smith's Avatar
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    Re: What is internalized homophobia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coward92 View Post
    So you say that I shouldn't think so much about who and what I am, but just simply living my life an interacting as I see fit in any given moment?
    All the time? Hell, no. Those people who never take time for personal introspection ultimately have empty and meaningless lives, and they always end up turning to a materialistic and self-serving religion in the long-run. You realize perfectly well how unattractive their personalities are.

    When you find your head buzzing with so much internal chatter that you can't sleep at night, that's the appropriate time to let yourself go. That's when you have gotten to the point of "thinking too much." It's really a simple calculus. When your mind is overworking itself, you gotta give it a rest, dude, or you will burn yourself out.

    But the fact that you like feeling attractive means nothing more significant than the fact that you are a healthy and essentially well-adjusted gay man.
    Last edited by Brian Smith; February 20th, 2013 at 01:36 PM.

  17. #17
    美しいヨーロッパ Scealle's Avatar
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    Re: What is internalized homophobia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coward92 View Post
    It is scary but the above phrase applies to me perfectly.
    I often feel ugly and deformed. It is my utmost desire to be admired for my good looks, yet I rarely feel good-looking. When someone admires my mental abilities or my emotional side I secretly think "yes yes but tell me that you like my body"
    I also noticed that the more and more I approach the "ideal" body type the more and more shallow and empty I become.

    I would prefer to discuss the matter with organic beings.
    I feel the same way sometimes. Time I wake up in the morning and as I wash my face and look in the mirror I would be like hi cutie then most of the time I just feel like ergh.

    Hmm usually for internalized homophobia (how I see it) Gay guys who dislike or hate on some other gays who are similar (behaviour or looks) for example when
    femn gay guys go around and hating/bitching on other femn gay guys.
    Gay guys who hate being around other gays (this is very situational though, sometimes people are just from two different worlds)
    Gay guys who only like/enjoy prowling after str8 guys (Obviously something wrong here, there are a lot of good looking and nice gay guys out there)
    I feel that gay stereotyping other gays can sometimes be a bit of internalized homophobia too

  18. #18
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coward92 View Post

    It is another thing I do not quite understand. Most gays have this tendency to define themselves by the role they prefer in a sexual encounter (top. ,verstaile, bottom) What about those of us who doesn't know how we feel about this? What if I don't even want to try it?
    I have noticed attractive qualities in feminine gays, but even those qualities were undeniably masculine. Beards, muscles, the cute smile etc.

    I wish I knew a stripper who could teach me how to dance.
    I have no idea what you mean by "not want to try it". Sex is a big part of my life, I'm not qualified to respond to that.

    As for why those roles matter, it's because being a top, bottom or vers is about 20% physicality and 80% personality.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  19. #19

    Re: What is internalized homophobia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coward92 View Post
    I do not hate femminine gays I just don't like them. I don't find them attractive either.
    I however did hate myself to the very core in an earlier stage of my life.
    It is weird to think about it but sometimes I feel a fragment of guilt and shame when I am truly myself. I cut ties with religion recently to stop that from happening but there remains a piece of painful remorse, especially when someone I care and trust turns out to be someone who can't treat me the same way as he did when he didn't know I was gay.

    I'm like you. I don't hate drag queens or obviously flamboyant gay guys. I just don't have anything in common with them besides the fact I like guys. Attraction is a personal thing. I'm not vehement about a type but there are certain things that I find more stimulating than others. There are things that are definite turn-offs. I suppose I went through the hate thing myself. I think everyone does to a degree. I personally don't know of a single guy that was overjoyed when he figured out he was gay. I have such a miniscule amount of interaction with lesbians that I cannot speak to that at all.

    As far as religion goes, I was reared in a very religious family. I have two uncles and four cousins in the ministry. I had a lot of guilt about being gay because of it. At first I did the "atheist" thing. Then I did the new age thing for a while, even to the point of the occult. I went back to Christianity lite or "I can't believe it's not Christianity". The type that says Christianity on the outside but is anything but on the inside. I now consider myself a spiritual person. I don't do religion any more. You don't have to be religious with a label to be spiritual.

    The main issue with which I think most homosexual people deal is the feeling of being abnormal or unnatural. The thing is heterosexuality is the natural biological physiological anatomical norm. Nowhere in nature do two of the same gender reproduce young. Let's be honest that is what sexual interaction is really about, reproduction. Now there is the asexual and hermaphroditic type of reproduction but that isn't present in higher animals. There are studies and dissertations on same gender pairing and interaction in nature. It seems to be a survival mechanism in most cases from everything I've read. I don't have any way of explaining why gay is or is not normal. I don't think it really much matters. I like guys. I like to have sex with guys. I'm not going to go much beyond that.

    Yes. There are going to be people that cannot handle the fact that others are gay. Vilifying said individuals isn't going to make it go away. I don't have a solution to that problem either. Morality is a very difficult thing to legislate.

    Live your life the way you want. As long as it doesn't impose on anyone else what business is it to anyone else.

  20. #20
    Coward92
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    Re: What is internalized homophobia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Smith View Post
    When you find your head buzzing with so much internal chatter that you can't sleep at night, that's the appropriate time to let yourself go.
    It happens often lately
    .My mind keeps going and going, especially about emotional things, I can't resolve on my own.

    I've had relationship three years ago, and sometimes it still pops up in my mind and I feel drawn to him in some degree. I often want to hurt him for the way he treated me, but I always have to face the cold reality that I love to have feelings for him. I have a soft spot for him, and I can't seem to get him out of my system. I would usually confront such a situation in real life to resolve tension, but he is a difficult case. The problem is possibly that I've never experienced love with anyone else but him. Maybe I'm afraid to let him go because I fear that if I do I reject love alltogether and I won't be able to reclaim it again. Ever.
    Wow, that's crazy.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Scealle View Post
    I feel the same way sometimes. Time I wake up in the morning and as I wash my face and look in the mirror I would be like hi cutie then most of the time I just feel like ergh.
    Yeah but you are cute I can tell this to you anytime you want

  21. #21
    Coward92
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    Re: What is internalized homophobia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    I have no idea what you mean by "not want to try it". Sex is a big part of my life, I'm not qualified to respond to that.

    As for why those roles matter, it's because being a top, bottom or vers is about 20% physicality and 80% personality.
    I meant anal sex. Some people reject the idea. I am not certain about it. My brief scale of experience implies that it is unpleasant. However I find myself longing for it sometimes. Being a top is fun. Being a bottom is... a desire I can't explain. It's just there. I want to feel safe in the arm of a strong man behind me. This is what describes it the most.
    Please tell me theese are not father issues.

  22. #22
    Coward92
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    Re: What is internalized homophobia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Durango95 View Post
    I'm like you. I don't hate drag queens or obviously flamboyant gay guys. I just don't have anything in common with them besides the fact I like guys. Attraction is a personal thing. I'm not vehement about a type but there are certain things that I find more stimulating than others. There are things that are definite turn-offs. I suppose I went through the hate thing myself. I think everyone does to a degree. I personally don't know of a single guy that was overjoyed when he figured out he was gay. I have such a miniscule amount of interaction with lesbians that I cannot speak to that at all.

    As far as religion goes, I was reared in a very religious family. I have two uncles and four cousins in the ministry. I had a lot of guilt about being gay because of it. At first I did the "atheist" thing. Then I did the new age thing for a while, even to the point of the occult. I went back to Christianity lite or "I can't believe it's not Christianity". The type that says Christianity on the outside but is anything but on the inside. I now consider myself a spiritual person. I don't do religion any more. You don't have to be religious with a label to be spiritual.

    The main issue with which I think most homosexual people deal is the feeling of being abnormal or unnatural. The thing is heterosexuality is the natural biological physiological anatomical norm. Nowhere in nature do two of the same gender reproduce young. Let's be honest that is what sexual interaction is really about, reproduction. Now there is the asexual and hermaphroditic type of reproduction but that isn't present in higher animals. There are studies and dissertations on same gender pairing and interaction in nature. It seems to be a survival mechanism in most cases from everything I've read. I don't have any way of explaining why gay is or is not normal. I don't think it really much matters. I like guys. I like to have sex with guys. I'm not going to go much beyond that.

    Yes. There are going to be people that cannot handle the fact that others are gay. Vilifying said individuals isn't going to make it go away. I don't have a solution to that problem either. Morality is a very difficult thing to legislate.

    Live your life the way you want. As long as it doesn't impose on anyone else what business is it to anyone else.
    You see our lives seem to be quite similar. My problem however is that my entire life was about craving love and attention. I was/am addicted to it.

    And when I realized that I'm gay I felt disconnected from the world. Like I was cut off from all the people.
    And in some sense it is true. There are people who will remove me from their lives if they realize my true identity.

    And I slowly learned not to give a fuck, but it always hurts when you develop care and trust towards another just to realize that he will never accept you.

  23. #23
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: What is internalized homophobia?

    How do you develop care and trust towards someone who will never accept you?

    See, this is why I always urge people to be out. Then you CAN'T get close to 'phobes because they know you're gay and won't let you close.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  24. #24
    Coward92
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    Re: What is internalized homophobia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    How do you develop care and trust towards someone who will never accept you?

    See, this is why I always urge people to be out. Then you CAN'T get close to 'phobes because they know you're gay and won't let you close.
    I am open about it but it isn't the first thing I mention to a family member I've never seen before...

    I however were quite obvious about myself and in the end he asked if I were gay and I told him that yeah, I am.
    Ever since we can't seem to be able to communicate.
    He avoids me. Lately I feel dirty so I avoid him.

  25. #25
    Porn Star Brian Smith's Avatar
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    Re: What is internalized homophobia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coward92 View Post
    The problem is possibly that I've never experienced love with anyone else but him. Maybe I'm afraid to let him go because I fear that if I do I reject love alltogether and I won't be able to reclaim it again. Ever.
    Setting someone free is an act of love. That may sound trite, but I believe in it. If the relationship was ill-fated, you can only hurt him by clinging to him. Say a prayer that someday he will find someone who is truly right for him. Make peace with him, within yourself, and you will be at peace. You are not giving up love by doing that, but you are fulfilling it.

    In a way, though, your instincts are on the money: there is no love like your first love, and you can never have that again. However, there is another kind of love that you can still find. You can find enduring love. You can find the kind of love that perseveres. Just don't go into it expecting it to be like the first. You ought to treasure that first love in your mind. Leave it unspoiled. However, that enduring love, that is still waiting to be found, can sustain your soul.
    Last edited by Brian Smith; February 20th, 2013 at 05:23 PM.

  26. #26

    Re: What is internalized homophobia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coward92 View Post
    You see our lives seem to be quite similar. My problem however is that my entire life was about craving love and attention. I was/am addicted to it.

    And when I realized that I'm gay I felt disconnected from the world. Like I was cut off from all the people.
    And in some sense it is true. There are people who will remove me from their lives if they realize my true identity.

    And I slowly learned not to give a fuck, but it always hurts when you develop care and trust towards another just to realize that he will never accept you.
    There is nothing wrong with wanting love and attention. Sex addiction is a problem though. I went through years of it. It was all trying to come to grips with my sexuality. I tried groups. I tried in patient treatment at one point. I'm not saying none of that helped. I will say it got to be a part of the problem. I mean I liked sitting in a room full of strangers and basically being an exhibitionist talking about my sex life. It took my best friend really getting real with me. I still have aberrant ideation but I deal with it now in more constructive ways.

    Whenever I truly realized I was gay, I was so disappointed. I went through the gambit of emotion. I was really pretty young. People feel a lot of different things. I personally have never talked to a guy that said they were just so glad they realized they liked guys. I have talked to some that said they felt relieved because they thought they were going crazy.

    Ok now the true identity thing, is puzzling. You are sexually attracted to guys. That is just one facet of your life. It is not your true identity. Your true identity is the person you have become and continue to become. It is how you treat people. Think of it in these terms. Replace the word gay with straight. It doesn't make a lot of sense that way does it. It has been my experience that gays that have being gay as their defining quality are very sad people. They are also usually the ones that cannot escape it. I think it is a coping mechanism for the untenable situation in which they find themselves.

    Ok the last thing about people ditching you. Maybe you are trusting the wrong people. I actually have more straight friends than gay ones. I have gotten to the point I can pretty much tell who is and isn't going to be cool with the whole gay thing. If they aren't, I don't throw them away but I don't let them in either.

  27. #27

    Re: What is internalized homophobia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coward92 View Post
    It happens often lately
    .My mind keeps going and going, especially about emotional things, I can't resolve on my own.

    I've had relationship three years ago, and sometimes it still pops up in my mind and I feel drawn to him in some degree. I often want to hurt him for the way he treated me, but I always have to face the cold reality that I love to have feelings for him. I have a soft spot for him, and I can't seem to get him out of my system. I would usually confront such a situation in real life to resolve tension, but he is a difficult case. The problem is possibly that I've never experienced love with anyone else but him. Maybe I'm afraid to let him go because I fear that if I do I reject love alltogether and I won't be able to reclaim it again. Ever.
    Wow, that's crazy.
    You aren't crazy. Everyone has their "guy" with the silver bullet....everyone.

  28. #28
    I'm now a grandfather! JUB Moderator Seasoned's Avatar
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    Re: What is internalized homophobia?

    Keep working on yourself in terms of your likes, dislikes, wants and needs. Any negativity that you direct against yourself ought to be examined. If the negativity involves things that can be changed, like jealousy, for example, that's a characteristic you could work on. Negative feelings about things you cannot change like being gay probably come from your programming and that is an example of internalized homophobia. Those feelings can stay internal or not. Others have already mention how some gay people whether closeted or not put down other gay people.

    I'd advise you to consider yourself as normal because its normal that some people are gay. We'll always be the minority, but that doesn't mean we are not normal. Keep in mind this is a description of sexual orientation. As already mentioned, human beings are more than that and it's important to accept that part of ourselves so that we can get on with becoming the person we were meant to be.
    "Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind."--Dr. Seuss

  29. #29
    美しいヨーロッパ Scealle's Avatar
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    Re: What is internalized homophobia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coward92 View Post
    I am open about it but it isn't the first thing I mention to a family member I've never seen before...

    I however were quite obvious about myself and in the end he asked if I were gay and I told him that yeah, I am.
    Ever since we can't seem to be able to communicate.
    He avoids me. Lately I feel dirty so I avoid him.
    Sorry to hear about that. I had a few deep crushes on a straight guy before back in the day and it kinda hurts but eventually you will get over it

  30. #30
    JUB Addict MorrisseyX's Avatar
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    Re: What is internalized homophobia?

    Is it internalized homophobia to not like drag queens? I don't like them and I find them to be really scary to be honest. I think it is one of the reason I don't like going to gay bars I just find drag queens to not be very nice or friendly at least the ones I've seen they come across as extremely rude.

    Whenever I go to a gaybar and I see a drag queen perform some offensive often misogynistic performance I feel annoyed and disgusted. I remember I went to a bar once and a drag queen grabbed a woman's breasts I found that to be extremely offensive.

  31. #31

    Re: What is internalized homophobia?

    Internalized homophobia is actually an epidemic in the gay community. When you have a portion of our community, often the hyper masculine (notice I didn't just say masculine) and fixated on machismo, who want to self identify as "STRAIGHT ACTING" and qualify meeting fellow gays, befriending only fellow gays and surrounding themselves only with fellow gays who are "STRAIGHT ACTING"......that in and of itself puts straight as the superior to the inferior that is gay.

    The same men will tell you "me disliking feminine gays and not wanting to be around them or be near them isn't homophobic at all." When actually it's drenched with straight privilege, a sense of this gay vs. that gay, and how being a passable straight man is superior to being an identifiable gay men (according to their thought process).

    Those same men will (unconvincingly) attempt to paint an argument how "me not wanting to ever be around you fem gays has nothing to do with homophobia. I just don't like how you wear it on your sleeve"...is the standard argument you'll often hear from the self-hating crowd.

    No one mandates you should be fem. But when you're clearly mindful of how straight and passable you are, and proud enough to highlight it in discussion, coupled with your own admission to feel slightly superior to fem gays...it reeks of privilege. A lack of compassion at best, and ignorance at worst. And that seems so far removed from the values the gay community wants to champion.

    It comes off as not wanting to be associated with "one of those gays" feeding right into the homophobic handbook, realized or not. You're not a fem gay? good for you. But the way to combat ignorance of stereotypes on what it means to be gay is to freely live your life as you see fit, while still respecting how other gay people live theirs. Be they fem and club hopping, or going to sports bars and wrestling matches. Being combative or judgmental of other sectors of gay population only exasperates more homophobia. It's possible to be grateful for the acceptance you attain as a 'passable hetero' gay man, while still challenging the status-quo of why we can't live in a *huge* planet that has enough room for diversity; yet we demand and dictate we all act in a uniform manner in relation to our gender"or else"...
    Those passable hetero gays as a safe (non intimidating) gay dude have a far more effective platform to share that message of tolerance, acceptance, and openness with fellow heterosexuals who will listen, and help them grasp the embracing of all of us having a place on societies dinner table, as opposed to thinking "well, I got mine! misfit gays...figure it out for yourself. I pass as one of the privileged. So I'm good, and I'm taking mine. You can keep struggling for yours"
    Being unrelatable to a majority of gay people is perfectly fine. It's when you pass judgment on Gay cultures that you are not familiar with, or have never been a part of-- or feel superior to identifiable gays.. that's when our narrative becomes no different than the ignorant person we all resent.

    Feminine gay men, and butch lesbians who deemed identifiably gay aren't hindering the gay communities freedom. They are only enhancing it. By showcasing that they too do exist, and various forms of gay people do exist, and so too do those nonchalant 'casual' gays like yourself. But empowering a more tolerant society is not shunning fem gays back in the closet as if they don't exist, all to appease the comfort levels of homophobes. That sort of "equality" is conditional.

    I mean at the end of the day, if you're going to use talking points of what anti gay people think of gays as an excuse to be annexed away from LGBT people...how exactly is that above those anti gay thinking? Isn't the purpose of coming out to not judge, not care, and feel liberated enough to socially hang out with some fem gays, and feel comfortable enough in your sexuality to know you're not "one of them", and yet be self accepting enough to not care if others (notably anti gay forces) think you are?

  32. #32

    Re: What is internalized homophobia?

    [Removed references to another poster that would be more appropriate in a private message. This is a no flame forum.]

    ...I'm proud to be gay, just as I'm proud to be a dog lover, proud to be part hispanic/part middle eastern, proud to be artistic. Being gay is just as much a trait in my being as those other attributes so why should I not pride myself in it as well. It may not be all of me, but it certainly IS an extension of me.

    [Deleted]...I'll explain why [deleted] guys like me, are indeed proud to be gay.

    We live in a world where gay people are stoned to death in parts of the country. Where 14 year old gay boys suspected of being gay are turned into the authorities by their parents in parts of the middle east and shot dead. Where there's witch hunts to spot gays and mandate their arrest and imprisonment in parts of Africa. Where in our own "land of the free"...it's perfectly legally in 90% of the U.S for employers to fire an employee for so much as suspecting they are gay. Where we have $50 million campaigns by bigots to strip us of our rights. And where what I call my relationship with my significant other is a national debate.

    That's why we're proud to be gay. We're proud to be, unapologetically, ourselves in a society and climate that demands we not be who we are. That takes a certain bit of courage, intestinal fortitude, and ...pride.

    What unites the gay quilt, and fabric, and makes some of us proud to be part of this community is the fact that we have a common bond in the rich LGBT history (do some research on it and educate yourself), that we each have had to go through varying degrees of
    hardship and adversity over our sexuality, that we've each faced a degree of discrimination over our sexuality, that we are triumphing, that we have organizations and groups that help us, and that we are a community about diversity and l-o-v-e. That's why I'm proud to be gay and it's indeed part of who I am.

    So you see, being gay, and having it be part of our "identity" isn't something we chose. It's something that was foisted upon us by people who constantly want to use and have used our being gay as a weapon against us. It's just, recently within the past 20 years, we've taken the microphone out of their hand, grabbed a back bone, grabbed our spine, got a voice and said "yes, we are in fact gay, we are in fact content with it, and we do deserves to be treated as your equal."

    I make no apologies about that.
    Last edited by Seasoned; February 21st, 2013 at 09:06 PM.

  33. #33

    Re: What is internalized homophobia?

    [Edited to keep the thread no flame.]

    I make no apologies for my life either.
    Last edited by Seasoned; February 21st, 2013 at 09:05 PM.

  34. #34

    Re: What is internalized homophobia?

    O I'll respond to the original query of the post now. Internalized homophobia is a nonsensical term coined by an elitist psychologist that had from all accounts severe dissociative issues with his father. It is the weapon of choice for the gay establishment, whatever that is, to cudgel all those that do not walk goosestep behind them.

  35. #35
    FEAR THE LIBERAL DETENTE! TX-Beau's Avatar
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    Re: What is internalized homophobia?

    That's just burying your head in the sand. Who is the "gay establishment?"
    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

  36. #36
    Coward92
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    Re: What is internalized homophobia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scealle View Post
    Sorry to hear about that. I had a few deep crushes on a straight guy before back in the day and it kinda hurts but eventually you will get over it
    Yes, well I have a crush right now, but I can't tell if he is straight or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Smith View Post
    Setting someone free is an act of love. That may sound trite, but I believe in it. If the relationship was ill-fated, you can only hurt him by clinging to him.
    The problem is that I can't seem to set myself free. He seems happy enough however. He still have feelings for me though. He feels shame/anger/fear when I'm around and he always reacts with extreemely fierce refusal to any of my attempts to sort things out. I believe if we could settle this, we could both walk away relieved. There must be apologies made on both sides. I have made mistakes but so did he. Letting it go sounds all nice but the problem is that I can't forget.

    Quote Originally Posted by Durango95 View Post
    Ok now the true identity thing, is puzzling. You are sexually attracted to guys. That is just one facet of your life. It is not your true identity. Your true identity is the person you have become and continue to become. It is how you treat people. Think of it in these terms. Replace the word gay with straight. It doesn't make a lot of sense that way does it. It has been my experience that gays that have being gay as their defining quality are very sad people. They are also usually the ones that cannot escape it. I think it is a coping mechanism for the untenable situation in which they find themselves.

    Ok the last thing about people ditching you. Maybe you are trusting the wrong people. I actually have more straight friends than gay ones. I have gotten to the point I can pretty much tell who is and isn't going to be cool with the whole gay thing. If they aren't, I don't throw them away but I don't let them in either.
    Well this part of your post actually helped a lot. Being gay is my absolutely central value that I identify myself with. My whole life revolves around this and it seems to explain why am I unable to focus on truly important things. Like actually important thing, for example my university studies. There is no day without me wasting 2-3 hours on fantasies of finding a partner for myself, true love and stuff like that. I want all taht but I can't have it wothout having my own life first.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seasoned View Post
    Keep working on yourself in terms of your likes, dislikes, wants and needs. Any negativity that you direct against yourself ought to be examined. If the negativity involves things that can be changed, like jealousy, for example, that's a characteristic you could work on. Negative feelings about things you cannot change like being gay probably come from your programming and that is an example of internalized homophobia. Those feelings can stay internal or not. Others have already mention how some gay people whether closeted or not put down other gay people.

    I'd advise you to consider yourself as normal because its normal that some people are gay. We'll always be the minority, but that doesn't mean we are not normal. Keep in mind this is a description of sexual orientation. As already mentioned, human beings are more than that and it's important to accept that part of ourselves so that we can get on with becoming the person we were meant to be.
    I often feel like I have to be extraordinary or extreemely good at what I do to be a valuable person, because I am gay and thus I must make up for being gay by excellent grades and outstanding results... And I can't deny that I revel in the attention when I succeed, which is quite rare. It is just getting too hard to juggle all life at once. I have this whole shitstorm in my head that I have to sort out and at the very same time I have to actually live my life, which I mostly happen to love very much right now.

    I try to react honestly to my emotions lately. I even try to express them instead of drowning them.

  37. #37
    美しいヨーロッパ Scealle's Avatar
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    Re: What is internalized homophobia?

    Really hope things gets better with you. You can try adding conversations about gay topics and see how he react. I always try that last time when I like the guy. Some str8 guys may not necessarily get grossed out because they are really open minded.

  38. #38
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Durango95 View Post
    O I'll respond to the original query of the post now. Internalized homophobia is a nonsensical term coined by an elitist psychologist that had from all accounts severe dissociative issues with his father. It is the weapon of choice for the gay establishment, whatever that is, to cudgel all those that do not walk goosestep behind them.
    I can't respond without flaming or turning this into an argument. So I'll just say that I couldn't possibly disagree more and find this to be an offensive trivialization of a serious problem that has plagued and slowed down our community since its conception...
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  39. #39
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: What is internalized homophobia?

    Internalised homophobia is the delusion that the pope might be right about us.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  40. #40
    Coward92
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    Re: What is internalized homophobia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Durango95 View Post
    O I'll respond to the original query of the post now. Internalized homophobia is a nonsensical term coined by an elitist psychologist that had from all accounts severe dissociative issues with his father. It is the weapon of choice for the gay establishment, whatever that is, to cudgel all those that do not walk goosestep behind them.
    While I can't deny that I share your views on many levels, I think you and Rolyo should balance each other out.
    You both seem to have valid points that should be inspected closely.

    You are right on the level that there are certain establshments and intitutions that use gay people as tools to represent themselves as liberators while they do something shady in the background, but it is also true turning Internalized homophobia into a triviality can be considered as overlooking a problem.

  41. #41

    Re: What is internalized homophobia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coward92 View Post
    While I can't deny that I share your views on many levels, I think you and Rolyo should balance each other out.
    You both seem to have valid points that should be inspected closely.

    You are right on the level that there are certain establshments and intitutions that use gay people as tools to represent themselves as liberators while they do something shady in the background, but it is also true turning Internalized homophobia into a triviality can be considered as overlooking a problem.
    I do agree. I always have to take an extreme position because I am constantly attacked for not carrying the "party" line. My life experience is just as valid as anyone else. It has lead me to this point. I am just not going to engage these people any more. It is an exercise in futility.

    I didn't bring my flamethrower until someone else on here did it first. The thing that is puzzling to me is why it was done in the first place. I was responding to you directly.

    You are correct in your assessment. There is something shady going on. I'm probably much older than you. I have seen a change in the "gay community" over the years and not for the better. My point was the whole concept of internalized homophobia is being used to herd gays into a cohesive faction without any descent.

    Political ideology doesn't tolerate diversity very well. Ironic is it not. The very ones paying lip service to diversity doesn't really want it. The very "community" that says it wants acceptance and tolerance is very intolerant. It is the bait and switch. One thing about tolerance. If it is a one way street it is not tolerance. It is totalitarianism.

    I hope I have been of some help. I was not trying to start anything. I just identified with a lot you said. I do not hold myself up as the paragon of perfection when it comes to being gay. I've made a lot of mistakes. I've done the best I can with the hand I was dealt. I've failed. I've overcome. I am not a victim. I'm not a hero. I'm just a guy trying to make it through.

    Take my advise and be yourself. No one else can do it better than you...no one.

  42. #42
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: What is internalized homophobia?

    Again, I cannot let this just stand there. I have NEVER been a witness to, or heard of internalized homophobia being used as a tool to prod someone "back into the herd", for political, social or whatever gains. I don't even know how this would be possible, and I am not sure that the term is even understood correctly for such a claim to be made.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  43. #43
    Coward92
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    Re: What is internalized homophobia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Again, I cannot let this just stand there. I have NEVER been a witness to, or heard of internalized homophobia being used as a tool to prod someone "back into the herd", for political, social or whatever gains. I don't even know how this would be possible, and I am not sure that the term is even understood correctly for such a claim to be made.
    Maybe it is a subtle form of manipulation.

    Basically if you don't act the way we want we make you feel that you will no longer will be needed or that you have earned our disapproval. This is how manipulation works. Most people rather conform than lose approval.

    I'm not saying it is everywhere but I am no fool to think that there are no people using us.

  44. #44
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: What is internalized homophobia?

    Yeah, that's entirely too vague, sorry. Internalized homophobia is a psychological issue. Whether something is a symptom of it or not, it's not a political tool or some fiction made up to control the masses, that's just outrageous.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  45. #45
    I'm now a grandfather! JUB Moderator Seasoned's Avatar
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    Re: What is internalized homophobia?

    If this topic continues to be sidetracked my only option will be to close it.

    Internalized homophobia has to do with feelings of self. How those feelings manifest themselves can be directed at self or others. Any gay person can be accused of internalized homophobia, but it's the person in question who's life is affected. It's no longer "internalized" if directed at others.

    It's almost impossible given our world's universal heterosexism for a gay person not to have or have had elements of internalized homophobia. As far as someone looking at my behavior, not liking it and then claiming that I act that way because of internalized homophobia, I have a couple of choices. I can examine the basis of my behavior or I can tell the accusing person to go fuck himself.

    Here's a simple defintion.


    internalized homophobia

    Type: Term
    Definitions:
    1. the type of homophobia occurring in a homosexual person, often associated with self-loathing, self-censure, and self-censorship.
    Last edited by Seasoned; February 23rd, 2013 at 10:34 PM.
    "Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind."--Dr. Seuss

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