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  1. #1

    Raise the minimum wage now

    Mr Obama wants to raise the minimum wage and so do many economists. It is time to do this now. A raise in the minimum wage puts money into the pockets of low income workers who will spend it in the local economy, and thus help build a sustainable economic recovery.

    As Dean Baker notes:

    The federal minimum wage was first put in place in 1938. From that year until 1968 when its value peaked, the purchasing power of the minimum wage increased by more than 140 percent. As a result, minimum wage workers saw a sharp increase in their living standards. Over this 30 year period, low wage workers shared in the gains of the economy as a whole as the minimum wage rose in step with productivity growth.

    If workers at the bottom had continued to share in the economy’s growth in the years since 1968 as they had in the three decades before 1968, we would be looking at a very different economy and society. If the minimum wage had risen in step with productivity growth it would be over $16.50 an hour today.That is higher than the hourly wages earned by 40 percent of men and half of women
    Let's do the right thing and raise the minimum wage now.

    http://www.cepr.net/index.php/op-eds...ld-fall-behind

    http://economistsview.typepad.com/ec...that-wage.html

  2. #2
    JockBoy87
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    Re: Raise the minimum wage now

    Since the top 20% of income earners have pocketed all of the real GDP growth since 1970, and I do mean all of it, I can imagine they will find a way to cope.

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    Re: Raise the minimum wage now

    The current minimum wage is $7.75 an hour.

    I remember $20 years ago if I was making that kind of money it was really something.

    Today someone making minimum wage would have to spend an hours wage just to buy less than two gallons of gas, and that's if they could afford to make the payments on a used car, not the mention the premiums for car insurance.

    Most "middle managers" in Corporate Retail who aren't on salary, on a national average make around $10 an hour.

    And that's after committing themselves to three, five, or ten or more years working at the same job.

    But if you're "salaried" meaning that you've agreed to accept a salary making X number of dollars a year/per pay check, you're required to work a MINIMUM of 45 hours a week. That's the "minimum.:

    Nothing wrong with that, but what they're really saying is "you're literally on call 24/7 a week."

    And there's nothing wrong with that!

    Because those minimum wage workers are MY help, and their salaries come out of MY budget.

    So I hire people who literally want to work, and I try to find as many people as I can to "take my job" (otherwise I'll never make more than I'm making now), and I can't move up the ladder, or hire and train people to help me get down to that 45 hour a work week minimum.

    But I can't see how I might ever be the CEO of the corporation that I work for.

    I'm sure that it's possible (I don't work for Walmart anymore!)

    But even in my position, I can see how raising the minimum wage will probably only help in the "short term."

    Corporations have a way of making up for things on their P&L (Profit and Loss) statements.

    That whole "We're passing off our savings to the Consumer?"

    ESPECIALLY applies to "costs."

    I think that (and this is my being personally cynical) that most of the opposition toward raising the minimum wage comes from Corporations and politicians not wanting the average minimum wage worker (voter) actually KNOWING how raising the minimum will only raise the COLA (Cost Of Living Adjustment) while ultimately not giving them anymore than they already have.

    So why not keep their "profit margins" where they're at?

    To me raising the minimum wage is nothing more than "politics" at this point without addressing the strangle hold that Corporate America has on our Democracy.
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    JUB Addict justdra's Avatar
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    Re: Raise the minimum wage now

    I see some corporations that still say the economy is bad so they don't offer more than a 1 or 2% raise but the CEO will take home $20 million in bonus money and they brag about how much money the company made that year but seem to that employees don't remember that and then wonder why morale is down. They give you a cost of living raise RIGHT after they announce insurance is going up each year so again everything seem to balance out so any excess pocket money goes right back to the company in some fashion.
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    Re: Raise the minimum wage now

    It is high time that it is raised.

    Raising it would take more people off assistance rolls and put more real money into the economy.

    For Fuck`s sakes people.

    And to all the rabid knee jerk reactionaries among us.

    Please don`t waste our time by telling us it is a job killer. It isn`t.

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    Re: Raise the minimum wage now

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    It is high time that it is raised.

    Raising it would take more people off assistance rolls and put more real money into the economy.

    For Fuck`s sakes people.

    And to all the rabid knee jerk reactionaries among us.

    Please don`t waste our time by telling us it is a job killer. It isn`t.
    I agree 100%.

    The proposed increase would still leave us a buck behind Canada's, and their dollar is equal to ours in value. I don't understand this strange mindset about "ho hum well it's all just gonna even back out anyway", if that's the way we're going to view it why not decrease the minimum wage?

    There's a reason the chamber of commerce and corporate America oppose raising the minimum wage, and it's not because "it does nothing."

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    Re: Raise the minimum wage now

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    It is high time that it is raised.

    Raising it would take more people off assistance rolls and put more real money into the economy.

    For Fuck`s sakes people.

    And to all the rabid knee jerk reactionaries among us.

    Please don`t waste our time by telling us it is a job killer. It isn`t.
    Not sure who you're addressing with that comment there.

    If this isn't a discussion thread then perhaps we should create a forum where statements are made and we have the choice of voting by clicking on a:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Icon.

    It would sure make the Moderator's job easier, and every one else who felt like they might have the need to actually type something.
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  8. #8
    JockBoy87
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    Re: Raise the minimum wage now

    ^^^

    I like reputation points XD

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    Re: Raise the minimum wage now

    I make well over minimum wage so I am not so much affected by this the same way minimum wage earners are, but if cost of goods keep rising, raising the minimum wage isn't going to help and the difference is lost.

    Quote Originally Posted by centexfarmer View Post
    It would sure make the Moderator's job easier, and every one else who felt like they might have the need to actually type something.
    Yeah, and I'm sure it would NEVER be abused.
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    Re: Raise the minimum wage now

    ^ True that.

    And on both accounts.
    Never regret anything, because in that moment it's exactly what you wanted.

  11. #11

    Re: Raise the minimum wage now

    Whenever the minimum wage is raised, some jobs are destroyed. This time it would came just as companies are trying to decide how many to lay off to avoid Obama care,

    - - - Updated - - -

    Whenever the minimum wage is raised, some jobs are destroyed. This time it would came just as companies are trying to decide how many to lay off to avoid Obama care,

  12. #12
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Raise the minimum wage now

    Whenever the minimum wage is raised, some jobs are destroyed? LOL... that's totally false. Thanks for playing. And Obamacare isn't going to get anyone fired. People being nasty partisans will... like some CEOs who are too greedy. And if raising the minimum wage is so bad why don't we just have slave labor? The minimum wage is fucking pathetic right now.... PATHETICALLY LOW.

  13. #13
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    Re: Raise the minimum wage now

    The problem with a federally-mandated minimum wage is the differing costs of living in various states. You can't reasonably have the same in Pascaghoula Mississippi as you would for the San Francisco Bay Area...just as in Canada you wouldn't for Vancouver and say Lethbridge....but there are too many working poor and that should be addressed through an adequate wage. The issue of the CEO making millions while the minions make a small amount is true anywhere. It's capitalism and they should be rewarded for running a company successfully but ONLY if it successful and tied to share performance and other metrics. A goon like Bill Gates should get paid nothing since Microsoft is a crap outfit.
    Your post comments are forwarded to the CIA.

  14. #14
    JockBoy87
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    Re: Raise the minimum wage now

    ^^^

    Most states with higher costs of living institute their own minimum wage.

    The point here is in no place in the entire country can minimum wage support a family, necessitating a federal standard.

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    Re: Raise the minimum wage now

    ^Right and still insufficient...just checked for San Francisco and it's $10.24...for one of the most expensive cities in the US....a good idea to have cities fix a minimum too since cost of living varies across cities within states.

    And some states have wages set lower than federal standards????
    Last edited by cgymike; February 19th, 2013 at 08:26 PM.
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  16. #16
    JockBoy87
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    Re: Raise the minimum wage now

    Quote Originally Posted by cgymike View Post

    And some states have wages set lower than federal standards????
    Yes. Minimum wage is not the only area of law where state code is looser than federal code.

    But no matter.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supremacy_Clause

  17. #17

    Re: Raise the minimum wage now

    The federal minimum wage should be raised now, but expect lots of push-back from the Republicans. Republicans will do anything to keep workers down so that the rich can get richer. Michael Lind, a southern journalist, wrote an article pointing out that the Southern economic model is based on cheap labor and weak bargaining power of workers. Since the Republican Party has become a party dominated ideologically by Southern reactionaries, they will naturally oppose the increase in the minimum wage. As Lind wrote:

    The essence of the Southern economic model is not low taxation, but a lack of bargaining power by Southern workers of all races. Bargaining power at the bottom of the income scale is created by tight labor markets; unions; minimum wage laws combined with unemployment insurance; and social insurance, such as Social Security and Medicare and Medicaid.
    http://www.salon.com/2013/02/19/southern_poverty_pimps/

    The article is definitely worth a read. Lind argues that Southern politicians have always supported the Earned Income Tax Credit, because that law subsidizes low, Southern wages, and thus Southern businesses, and is a huge transfer of tax dollars from the North to the South.

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    Re: Raise the minimum wage now

    Quote Originally Posted by cgymike View Post
    ^Right and still insufficient...just checked for San Francisco and it's $10.24...for one of the most expensive cities in the US....a good idea to have cities fix a minimum too since cost of living varies across cities within states.

    And some states have wages set lower than federal standards????
    I still don't understand how these nitpicks are a reason we shouldn't increase the minimum wage though.

    As Jockboy pointed out, living on minimum wage in this country is a joke. Ideally each state would make an adjusted minimum wage higher than the federal one depending on the cost of living in that state, but we know that doesn't happen fairly or widely. However to me the fact that it won't perfectly reflect a reasonable minimal standard of living everywhere perfectly isn't an argument it should not be increased.

  19. #19
    loki81
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    Re: Raise the minimum wage now

    there doesn't seem to be a consensus on whether or not raising the minimum wage increases unemployment or has no effect.

    UC Irvine’s David Neumark and the Fed’s William Wauscher conducted a literature review in 2007 that found a majority of studies found negative effects on employment — that is, a higher minimum wage meant fewer jobs. They found this was particularly true among low-skilled workers.

    A more recent study from economists at the London School of Economics and the central bank of Turkey found higher minimum wages increased unemployment. But that finding is far from unanimous, with Berkeley’s Laura Giuliano finding no statistically significant effects on employment, and Arindrajit Dube of the University of Massachusetts finding no effects as well. So, if you believe one set of literature, Obama’s plan will increase wages without reducing employment. But many labor economists think the plan has real costs.
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...wage-increase/

    I know Walmart can take a minimum wage hike on the chin, but what about that locally owned hardware shop that's already struggling to stay in business against Walmart's lower prices?

    personally, I feel like it should be a state issue... $9/hour in New York is vastly different than $9/hour in, say, West Virginia. 18 states already have a higher minimum wage than the federal rate.

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    Re: Raise the minimum wage now

    Quote Originally Posted by loki81 View Post
    there doesn't seem to be a consensus on whether or not raising the minimum wage increases unemployment or has no effect.



    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...wage-increase/

    I know Walmart can take a minimum wage hike on the chin, but what about that locally owned hardware shop that's already struggling to stay in business against Walmart's lower prices?

    personally, I feel like it should be a state issue... $9/hour in New York is vastly different than $9/hour in, say, West Virginia. 18 states already have a higher minimum wage than the federal rate.
    It's already a state issue. States may elect to adopt their own separate (higher) minimum wage. Raising or having a Federal minimum wage isn't mandating one uniform wage for everyone. However, it is creating a minimum bottom. Even as we speak at this very moment I don't know that $9/hour would support anyone even in the humblest of apartments in any of the big cities in California to live reasonably by themselves without roommates or living at home. But that would beg a question of why it would be a good thing if California could opt to leave minimum wage at $5 or $6 if there were no Federal minimum.

  21. #21
    JockBoy87
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    Re: Raise the minimum wage now

    Quote Originally Posted by loki81 View Post
    there doesn't seem to be a consensus on whether or not raising the minimum wage increases unemployment or has no effect.



    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...wage-increase/

    I know Walmart can take a minimum wage hike on the chin, but what about that locally owned hardware shop that's already struggling to stay in business against Walmart's lower prices?

    personally, I feel like it should be a state issue... $9/hour in New York is vastly different than $9/hour in, say, West Virginia. 18 states already have a higher minimum wage than the federal rate.
    That's the problem I've tried to make clear.

    Minimum wage right now does not cut it in any of the 50 states, and hasn't since 2005.

    And 9$ is poverty in New York City, but they will never raise it through the conservative senate.

  22. #22
    loki81
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    Re: Raise the minimum wage now

    it's a minimum wage, though, not a living wage. afaik, since it's inception, the minimum wage has always put people below the poverty line.

    San Fransisco has had some luck trying to turn their minimum wage into a living wage, but even there I don't think the results are conclusive (and not every city can have the luxury of bordering Silicon Valley)

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    Re: Raise the minimum wage now

    Quote Originally Posted by loki81 View Post
    it's a minimum wage, though, not a living wage. afaik, since it's inception, the minimum wage has always put people below the poverty line.

    San Fransisco has had some luck trying to turn their minimum wage into a living wage, but even there I don't think the results are conclusive (and not every city can have the luxury of bordering Silicon Valley)
    I have no problem with making it a living wage. I share what I believe to be the dominant view on the left that anyone who works full time should not be in poverty, period.

  24. #24

    Re: Raise the minimum wage now

    The problem for people making very little is that the value of their labor has dropped. Technology has fucked them over for the most part. The jobs that they once did are done by or assisted by machines now. McDonald's has automated grills, drink dispensers, POS systems, and pretty much ever other factor of production. People who work there require no skills or abilities. Seriously. Try working a McDonald's. Other industries and companies are the same. More can be done with less or inferior labor. We are working towards zero labor in those areas. The fast food restaurant of the future is no employees. Everything from ordering to preparation to delivery would be handled by automated systems (the technology already exist; this is a good thing as it frees up labor to be used in areas that provide more social benefit).

    If you really want to help people, then the focus should be on raising taxes on everyone to provide more funding for education of those who need it the most (including practicial--like managing household finances--and occupational training). That would aid in raising real income of the current low income workers while giving them the tools to properly manage their money. Right now they are not doing that. One study showed that households with income less than $15k spent 9% of income on lottery tickets. Rates of savings are pretty much nonexistent for those with incomes less than $30k per year. Will raising nominal income fix any of that? Of course not. It would placate the stupid while ensuring votes for lazy politicians too afraid of losing votes to enact real change. They really want to cling to the past. It is easy. The future is far too scary. It needs to be kept at bay.
    Quote Originally Posted by EastMed View Post
    CEPR ignores the reason that real wage rose. It had nothing to do with the minimum wage. The war (lots of unnecessary production that put people to work) and post-war periods were a boon for the US. The war spending was completely wasted. Mining ore and then refining it to make steel to use for ships that would end up on the bottom of the ocean (with human losses) is never beneficial. Destruction hurts. Unless it is someplace else. The US was untouched by the war in Europe. Very few casualties and no damage to infrastructure meant that the US could just jump right back into producing the goods that people wanted (and could not have; everything was rationed during the war.) the pent up demand could be met as factories went from making tanks to automobiles. Europe and Asia? they were bombed out. Production was not possible. Goods that were needed were purchased from the US (Marshall Plan!).

    When did wages fall? when the world started competing again. When the efficiency of other markets started taking its toll on US companies. Remember how Japan killed the US automotive market? Yeah. Remember how lower cost foreign production destroyed US manufacturing? Yeah (though that is a good thing; lower costs and offshored pollution is never bad).
    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    I have no problem with making it a living wage. I share what I believe to be the dominant view on the left that anyone who works full time should not be in poverty, period.
    You share the view that rejects economics.

    A person who spends all day cutting someone's lawn with scissors does not deserve to not be in poverty. Inefficient usage of labor is criminal. If sin existed, inefficiency would be the only sinful act. There are billions of people on the planet. Most of them work very hard. Yet scumbags in the west hold a very disproportionate amount of the world's wealth. How is that fair? Are you going to give up what you have so that others are not living in poverty? They work hard too. They just have the name of a different country on their passports.
    Last edited by itsmejeff; February 20th, 2013 at 12:23 PM.

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    Re: Raise the minimum wage now

    Quote Originally Posted by itsmejeff View Post
    A person who spends all day cutting someone's lawn with scissors does not deserve to not be in poverty. Inefficient usage of labor is criminal. If sin existed, inefficiency would be the only sinful act. There are billions of people on the planet. Most of them work very hard. Yet scumbags in the west hold a very disproportionate amount of the world's wealth. How is that fair? Are you going to give up what you have so that others are not living in poverty? They work hard too. They just have the name of a different country on their passports.
    I can only change what I can change with where I decide to put my money and how I vote. That's the extent of what I can do. If you're asking me if I'll pay more for something so that I know it wasn't built by slave labor, or vote in a way that I'll pay more taxes even for things that won't directly help me, the answer is yes. But you're now on the topic of global economics which had almost nothing to do with a discussion about minimum wage in the U.S.

  26. #26
    JockBoy87
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    Re: Raise the minimum wage now

    Quote Originally Posted by loki81 View Post
    it's a minimum wage, though, not a living wage. afaik, since it's inception, the minimum wage has always put people below the poverty line.

    San Fransisco has had some luck trying to turn their minimum wage into a living wage, but even there I don't think the results are conclusive (and not every city can have the luxury of bordering Silicon Valley)
    It has not. Poverty is defined as the inability to afford basic needs. It is only recently that minimum wage cannot support a family in standard housing anywhere in the country.

  27. #27
    loki81
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    Re: Raise the minimum wage now

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    It has not. Poverty is defined as the inability to afford basic needs. It is only recently that minimum wage cannot support a family in standard housing anywhere in the country.
    I was going by the poverty line.



    http://www.financialramblings.com/ar...mum-wage-rate/

    with the exception of like a 2 year spike there, it's always been below the poverty line for families and above for singles... I'm not opposed to raising it or tying it to inflation, but I don't think it's reasonable to expect to be able to support a family of 3 on a single McJob.
    Last edited by loki81; February 20th, 2013 at 02:06 PM.

  28. #28

    Re: Raise the minimum wage now

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    But you're now on the topic of global economics which had almost nothing to do with a discussion about minimum wage in the U.S.
    Because your concern with "poverty" is false. Poverty does not exist in the west. It exists in the the rest of the world. People who make a relatively high income (PPP) while still having unlimited food, security, water, and shelter are not poor. People with western toys are not poor.

    Real poverty exists in the rest of the world. Its effects are very real for more than 1 billion people.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    [Quoted Post: Removed]
    [Text: Removed] the example is something called hyperbole.

    The point made by the other poster was that hard work deserves to be supported by society. There is no discussion of value (you would not understand; math--and thinking--are involved). It is simply childish emotion in the place of rational thought. Hard work is not inherently valuable. You do understand that Keynes was joking about burying bottles of money, right?

    Much of the labor done is wasted. People should not be doing it. Paying more for labor than it is worth does not make society better. It simply fights the future.

    Whether it is Bastiatian broken windows or overpaying people to do menial tasks, it does not work. It does not benefit the economy. It just creates waste. It worked before because no one could compete in the areas of production or consumption, but that is changing. There are going to be 1 billion new people in Africa over the next 50 years. They are going to want the same things that you want and have.
    Last edited by opinterph; February 20th, 2013 at 05:13 PM. Reason: removed verbiage quoted from another poster; removed baiting insult

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    Re: Raise the minimum wage now

    Quote Originally Posted by itsmejeff View Post
    Because your concern with "poverty" is false. Poverty does not exist in the west. It exists in the the rest of the world. People who make a relatively high income (PPP) while still having unlimited food, security, water, and shelter are not poor. People with western toys are not poor.

    Real poverty exists in the rest of the world. Its effects are very real for more than 1 billion people.
    Massive inequality in wealth in the U.S. is okay, because much of the rest of the world is poorer.

    GOt it.

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    Re: Raise the minimum wage now

    Aww, I won't understand because thinking and math are involved. Adorbs.

    When it all boils down to "some jobs don't deserve to be paid decently." Well, newsflash - nobody wants to do a job that doesn't pay. So refusing to acknowledge that a full day's work should be paid at the very least at some minimum first world standard instead of the banana republic one we have now, simply says that you don't believe certain jobs are worth doing. I know you won't understand - logic and compassion are involved - but take my word for it.
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  31. #31

    Re: Raise the minimum wage now

    Quote Originally Posted by itsmejeff View Post
    Because your concern with "poverty" is false. Poverty does not exist in the west. It exists in the the rest of the world. People who make a relatively high income (PPP) while still having unlimited food, security, water, and shelter are not poor. People with western toys are not poor.

    Real poverty exists in the rest of the world. Its effects are very real for more than 1 billion people.
    There is poverty in the west, but you wouldn't understand, a command of the English language and rational thought is involved. Sorry if I don't respond point by point to your posts, but they make no sense.

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    Sex God tigerfan482's Avatar
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    Re: Raise the minimum wage now

    Quote Originally Posted by itsmejeff View Post
    Because your concern with "poverty" is false. Poverty does not exist in the west. It exists in the the rest of the world. People who make a relatively high income (PPP) while still having unlimited food, security, water, and shelter are not poor. People with western toys are not poor.

    Real poverty exists in the rest of the world. Its effects are very real for more than 1 billion people.

    [Text: Removed] the example is something called hyperbole.

    The point made by the other poster was that hard work deserves to be supported by society. There is no discussion of value (you would not understand; math--and thinking--are involved). It is simply childish emotion in the place of rational thought. Hard work is not inherently valuable. You do understand that Keynes was joking about burying bottles of money, right?

    Much of the labor done is wasted. People should not be doing it. Paying more for labor than it is worth does not make society better. It simply fights the future.

    Whether it is Bastiatian broken windows or overpaying people to do menial tasks, it does not work. It does not benefit the economy. It just creates waste. It worked before because no one could compete in the areas of production or consumption, but that is changing. There are going to be 1 billion new people in Africa over the next 50 years. They are going to want the same things that you want and have.
    Everything you've said up to this point indicates you miss the entire point about how every economy in the world works. Economies and everything in them (goods, services, wages, monetary value, etc.) are based on the value that people attach to whatever it is you're placing value on. So while digging ditches in Africa might be worth $0.50 a week because everyone wants to be a ditch digger and Africans attach that value to it, in the US it may pay $15/hour because few people want to do it and people are willing to pay that price for it.

    There's even differing views on the value of human life between the western world and the countries you're trying to compare it to. How do you think the western world became what it is today? They started to view life to be more and more worth trying to improve and so they went out and did it. Agricultural techniques, engineering, medical care, economics, etc. didn't just fall out of the sky one day. It evolved, and continues to evolve, out of a desire to do more with our lives than just be born, get someone pregnant/push a baby out of our vagina, then die. It's not our fault that our society burgeoned because we attached a value not just to living, but to living better and expanding our minds and horizons. We try to help these countries out with food, medical aid, education, and military support when needed, but they have to choose to better themselves and their society. We can't do it for them. Until they do so, they're going to be stuck in their cycle of starving and putting out more babies than their limited supplies can feed.

  33. #33

    Re: Raise the minimum wage now

    Poverty in America is primarily the result of our policy of flooding the country with millions of more poor people, legally and illegally, each year. The bizarre thing is that liberals who say we have too many poor people, insist that we must continue to allow massive immigration.

    Economists debate whether raising the minimum wage causes some jobs to be lost. But this time we are also imposing the huge new Obama care burden on employers. There is no doubt that the double whammy will adversely impact employment, and not just minimum wage jobs.

  34. #34
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    Re: Raise the minimum wage now

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Poverty in America is primarily the result of our policy of flooding the country with millions of more poor people, legally and illegally, each year. The bizarre thing is that liberals who say we have too many poor people, insist that we must continue to allow massive immigration.

    Economists debate whether raising the minimum wage causes some jobs to be lost. But this time we are also imposing the huge new Obama care burden on employers. There is no doubt that the double whammy will adversely impact employment, and not just minimum wage jobs.
    Obamacare, as you call it, is a red herring. We already pay the costs of people's healthcare. Under Obamacare, we just a) make them pay for their own insurance and b) make it so that instead of an $800/hr emergency room visit, they can take advantage of a $250 clinic visit. If anything, it kicks off all of those freeloaders that Republicans seem to complain about and makes everyone contribute at least something to the system.

    As far as your second red herring (immigration), that is laughable that you attribute the poverty to illegal immigrants. The causes of poverty lie solely in the hands of the employers as it is their job to pay their workers a livable wage that can accommodate affording the basic needs based on the current economic costs. The fact that the wealth of the top 1% has grown over the past decade while the wealth of the middle and lower classes has either been stagnant or shrunk tells me we don't have a cash problem. We have a greed problem. It seems like every time I turn on the TV, there are people in competition seeing who can be the richest and most flagrant with their wasteful spending of money. The simple fact is that the rich people in this country aren't satisfied with what they have, so they have to be richer. Then another rich person comes along and feels that they have to be even richer than that first one. And the process repeats itself, all the while prices are going up and wages are going down in order to accommodate this rapid growth in wealth at the top, which has to come from somewhere.

    So if you want someone to blame for poverty, you only have to look up at your rich puppet masters to find your problem.

  35. #35

    Re: Raise the minimum wage now

    Without acknowledging that technology and a global market are eliminating the value of labor on the lowest end of the pay scale, there cannot be any discussion. The desire to "give" more to people doing unnecessary or nearly worthless jobs does not improve society. It never will.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    When it all boils down to "some jobs don't deserve to be paid decently." Well, newsflash - nobody wants to do a job that doesn't pay. So refusing to acknowledge that a full day's work should be paid at the very least at some minimum first world standard instead of the banana republic one we have now, simply says that you don't believe certain jobs are worth doing. I know you won't understand - logic and compassion are involved - but take my word for it.
    Compassion is bullshit. Compassion does not allocate resources equally. It tosses a bone to the poor so that you can feel better. It also does not make a more efficient world.

    Terms like "a full day's work" and "decent wage" are such bullshit. What do they mean? Should society start paying unemployed people to stand around all day holding street signs? They would be doing work. We need street signs. They could get paid as well.

    Many jobs are not worth doing. If a robot can do it, then a human should not be doing it. It not only wastes their time (an incredibly limited resource; once dead, nothing changes that) and societies resources (costs of labor, health care, and such things).

    The sad thing is that you are preventing the future that you would actually want. The future can allow for a decoupling of work from survival. Instead of people doing busy work, a more efficient society can support those who are not able to provide any benefit.


    Quote Originally Posted by palemale View Post
    There is poverty in the west, but you wouldn't understand, a command of the English language and rational thought is involved. Sorry if I don't respond point by point to your posts, but they make no sense.
    You choose not to respond because you lack science. It is cool. You are an American, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    Everything you've said up to this point indicates you miss the entire point about how every economy in the world works. Economies and everything in them (goods, services, wages, monetary value, etc.) are based on the value that people attach to whatever it is you're placing value on. So while digging ditches in Africa might be worth $0.50 a week because everyone wants to be a ditch digger and Africans attach that value to it, in the US it may pay $15/hour because few people want to do it and people are willing to pay that price for it.

    There's even differing views on the value of human life between the western world and the countries you're trying to compare it to. How do you think the western world became what it is today? They started to view life to be more and more worth trying to improve and so they went out and did it.
    Comparisons are made. Ever heard of PPP? Yeah, it allows for comparisons across currencies and economies. a lack of access does not provide much justification for the western hoarding of wealth.

    The west did not win out because of philosophy. It won out because of technology and ability to conquer for resources. Imperialism is why the west flourished. Taking resources or profits derived from them outside of the place whence they originated allows a people to gain a significant advantage.

    All of the advancement of the west can be shared with other peoples.

  36. #36

    Re: Raise the minimum wage now

    I agree with itsmejeff, except that "philosophy" was a part of the free enterprise ideology which enabled Britain and then the US to lead in the Industrial Revolution and democracy. The US was settled by what happened to be the most advanced culture in the world at the the time. When the Pilgrims landed in1620, they signed a democratic covenants he , setting the course for the US. In 1649 King Charles was beheaded and a Parliamentary government established. The experiment failed in England, but the US was on a steady course to democracy.

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    Re: Raise the minimum wage now

    Dude... this is about the U.S. minimum wage. You are talking about "global resource allocation." These are two entirely different topics. This is like someone talks about pay equality for women and men in the United States and you go off on a rant about how women can't be educated in Taliban-administered Afghanistan.

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    Re: Raise the minimum wage now

    Quote Originally Posted by itsmejeff View Post
    Comparisons are made. Ever heard of PPP? Yeah, it allows for comparisons across currencies and economies. a lack of access does not provide much justification for the western hoarding of wealth.

    The west did not win out because of philosophy. It won out because of technology and ability to conquer for resources. Imperialism is why the west flourished. Taking resources or profits derived from them outside of the place whence they originated allows a people to gain a significant advantage.

    All of the advancement of the west can be shared with other peoples.
    PPP has nothing to do with the value a society places on a given target. It has only to do with the comparable exchange of a currency or asset. So PPP could tell me my $50,000 Rolex is 97,283 GHS (Ghanaian Cedi) but that doesn't mean that the people of Ghana attach that same value to it and would be willing to pay that for it. Maybe the residents of Ghana have a market flooded with Rolexes and thus only place a value of equivalent $400 USD on it. Or maybe they have no need for a Rolex and thus place a value of nothing on it. The monetary value one country assigns to something does not carry over to another society's value system under PPP.

    The west won out for many reasons. Philosophy is one. Drive and determination is one. Technology is one. The ability to organize and defend/fight/conquer (whatever you want to call it) is one. The people of these impoverished nations had the same opportunities to set out the course for their existence. They could have very easily been the oppressors and not the oppressed. Imperialism doesn't just pop out of nowhere. It comes from a society that builds itself up to the point where it can be imperialistic. Debates can be had all day on the extent of imperialism as it exists today and what role it plays. However, every country does have the opportunity and means to work to pull itself into a productive society. However, regional and societal problems that are controllable (mainly the continuous civil and religious wars in most of these countries) are what prevent them from moving on past the undeveloped country they are. Like I said previously, we provide them food and medical aid among others, but your idea seems to be saying that you believe it's okay for western powers to have a society that works and produces and makes money and then we send it all over to the countries that don't work and produce because they should have some, too.

    It's not our job to manage and sustain their localized economy. It is our job to drive and sustain OUR local economy and we do that in part by ensuring our citizens get a decent minimum wage to live on. If those countries want to start producing stuff and selling to us, I'm more than happy to purchase their goods. But to sit there and make a day out of killing each other and then have people like you shout that we need to send them money when they've produced nothing but problems is a little ridiculous.

    And for the record, the advancements of the west (save a few things like nuclear weapons) are available for any country who wants it. We send engineers around the world to teach countries how to construct waste treatment plants, power grids, fresh water delivery systems, etc. There is very little of today's technology that is not available to people around the world and you have companies and governments working every day to get more out there. Where do you think these $100 laptop programs came from?

  39. #39
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    Re: Raise the minimum wage now

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    When it all boils down to "some jobs don't deserve to be paid decently." Well, newsflash - nobody wants to do a job that doesn't pay. So refusing to acknowledge that a full day's work should be paid at the very least at some minimum first world standard instead of the banana republic one we have now, simply says that you don't believe certain jobs are worth doing.
    The minimum wage suggests that any job involving human labor should represent at least that value. Otherwise, the duties of that job should be amended to include additional functions and thereby increase the value it represents to the employer – or it should not be represented as a job.

    There are exceptions to the federal minimum wage requirement, including:

    • employees who are family members of the employer

    • disabled employees whose ability to work is limited by their disability

    • full time students

    • employees earning tips as a portion of their compensation

  40. #40

    Re: Raise the minimum wage now

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    The minimum wage suggests that any job involving human labor should represent at least that value. Otherwise, the duties of that job should be amended to include additional functions and thereby increase the value it represents to the employer – or it should not be represented as a job.

    There are exceptions to the federal minimum wage requirement, including:

    • employees who are family members of the employer

    • disabled employees whose ability to work is limited by their disability

    • full time students

    • employees earning tips as a portion of their compensation
    The idea that politicians or beaurocrats should decide what a job is worth in the abstract, or what a person deserves is inherently arbitrary. How much does the blind man selling pencils on the side walk deserve? Why does not the waitress deserve to make a $100,000.
    Like it or not, the market determines what a commodity, including labor is worth. If corn can be bought for $5.00 a bushel, among willing butters and sellers, that is what it is worth. Supply and demand. If you can hire acceptable workers for $5.00 an hour, that by definition, is what it is worth.

    If you think wages should go up, then do not increase the supply. If you flood the market with more corn or labor than the market can absorb, the price will go down.
    Last edited by Benvolio; February 20th, 2013 at 08:42 PM.

  41. #41
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  42. #42
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    Re: Raise the minimum wage now

    Quote Originally Posted by centexfarmer View Post
    The current minimum wage is $7.75 an hour.

    I remember $20 years ago if I was making that kind of money it was really something.

    Today someone making minimum wage would have to spend an hours wage just to buy less than two gallons of gas, and that's if they could afford to make the payments on a used car, not the mention the premiums for car insurance.

    Most "middle managers" in Corporate Retail who aren't on salary, on a national average make around $10 an hour.

    And that's after committing themselves to three, five, or ten or more years working at the same job.

    But if you're "salaried" meaning that you've agreed to accept a salary making X number of dollars a year/per pay check, you're required to work a MINIMUM of 45 hours a week. That's the "minimum.:

    Nothing wrong with that, but what they're really saying is "you're literally on call 24/7 a week."

    And there's nothing wrong with that!

    Because those minimum wage workers are MY help, and their salaries come out of MY budget.

    So I hire people who literally want to work, and I try to find as many people as I can to "take my job" (otherwise I'll never make more than I'm making now), and I can't move up the ladder, or hire and train people to help me get down to that 45 hour a work week minimum.

    But I can't see how I might ever be the CEO of the corporation that I work for.

    I'm sure that it's possible (I don't work for Walmart anymore!)

    But even in my position, I can see how raising the minimum wage will probably only help in the "short term."

    Corporations have a way of making up for things on their P&L (Profit and Loss) statements.

    That whole "We're passing off our savings to the Consumer?"

    ESPECIALLY applies to "costs."

    I think that (and this is my being personally cynical) that most of the opposition toward raising the minimum wage comes from Corporations and politicians not wanting the average minimum wage worker (voter) actually KNOWING how raising the minimum will only raise the COLA (Cost Of Living Adjustment) while ultimately not giving them anymore than they already have.

    So why not keep their "profit margins" where they're at?

    To me raising the minimum wage is nothing more than "politics" at this point without addressing the strangle hold that Corporate America has on our Democracy.
    I think this is a huge issue that doesn't get addressed enough. The Fair Labor Standards Act is so toothless that you can get away with classifying anyone with a degree and plenty others on top of that as exempt from overtime rules. We've made such huge advances in productivity over the past few decades, but somehow average workweeks are getting longer. I'd really like to see reform here. I'd do something along the lines of requiring a minimum salary of $130,000 pegged to inflation in order to consider someone as exempt, and change the rate to 2x pay rather than 1.5x for work done over 40 hours/week.

  43. #43

    Re: Raise the minimum wage now

    Quote Originally Posted by SuprSonic View Post
    I think this is a huge issue that doesn't get addressed enough. The Fair Labor Standards Act is so toothless that you can get away with classifying anyone with a degree and plenty others on top of that as exempt from overtime rules. We've made such huge advances in productivity over the past few decades, but somehow average workweeks are getting longer. I'd really like to see reform here. I'd do something along the lines of requiring a minimum salary of $130,000 pegged to inflation in order to consider someone as exempt, and change the rate to 2x pay rather than 1.5x for work done over 40 hours/week.
    The issue is becoming moot. The burdens of Obama care can be avoided by reducing the hour of employees to part time and hiring more part time workers.

  44. #44
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    Re: Raise the minimum wage now

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    The issue is becoming moot. The burdens of Obama care can be avoided by reducing the hour of employees to part time and hiring more part time workers.
    Yep, so that even MORE people work jobs that aren't enough for them to support themselves.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  45. #45

    Re: Raise the minimum wage now

    Quote Originally Posted by itsmejeff View Post

    You choose not to respond because you lack science. It is cool. You are an American, right?
    I saw no evidence of science in your post, just pretentious nonsense. You are English, right?

  46. #46
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    Re: Raise the minimum wage now

    I thought it was interesting that Obama added the $9 increase to his Speech. It was just talk though he knows like everybody else that its not gonna happen....

    Trying to fix the poverty issue here in America is just talk. Legislators making 6-figures a year simply don't give a Damn...

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    Re: Raise the minimum wage now

    Quote Originally Posted by MisterMajestic View Post
    I thought it was interesting that Obama added the $9 increase to his Speech. It was just talk though he knows like everybody else that its not gonna happen....

    Trying to fix the poverty issue here in America is just talk. Legislators making 6-figures a year simply don't give a Damn...
    How much or how little legislators make (and pay for being a representative is pretty much a joke compared to what most of them made in the private sector beforehand) is beside the point. It's not legislators earning 'too much' that causes so many people to earn so little. It's the structure of our entire economy and the direction we've headed with tax and regulatory policy over the last 40 years which has empowered the flowing of wealth into the highest channels, particularly all the increase in wealth and profit over time. Some of the legislators certainly are part of that upper class that has benefitted from this structure but it's simplifying the issue to a painful level to say "Congressmen make good money so they don't care." Congresspeople haven't put a gun to the head of corporate America and forced them all to freeze employee wages over the last four decades in real terms while redirecting all additional profit to the very highest tier of the pyramid. That is something corporate America has been happy to do all by itself due to the lack of enough of an outcry in America over the idea of: there shouldn't be people making 300 million when his lowest paid employee is making $15k/year. Saying anything along those lines gets immediately called Socialist, if not Communist, though.

  48. #48

    Re: Raise the minimum wage now

    Quote Originally Posted by MisterMajestic View Post
    I thought it was interesting that Obama added the $9 increase to his Speech. It was just talk though he knows like everybody else that its not gonna happen....

    Trying to fix the poverty issue here in America is just talk. Legislators making 6-figures a year simply don't give a Damn...
    How can we fix poverty when we continue to flood the country with millions more poor each year? Why don't the "poor" object?

  49. #49
    Sex God tigerfan482's Avatar
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    Re: Raise the minimum wage now

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    How can we fix poverty when we continue to flood the country with millions more poor each year? Why don't the "poor" object?
    Because we don't flood the country with millions of poor people each year. According to the Pew Hispanic Center, the number of illegal immigrants from Mexico between 2005 and 2010 was about 1.4 million immigrants, which is far less than millions per year. Additionally, the increase in illegal immigrants in recent years has actually flattened out, if not decreased some. The two largest groups of people under the poverty line are African Americans and Native Americans/Native Alaskans/Eskimos, neither of which see any significant illegal immigration at all.

    Drop the red herring and focus on the fact that poverty exists because we let it exist. We have a low minimum wage and allow wealth to flow upwards and stay concentrated at the top.

  50. #50

    Re: Raise the minimum wage now

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    Because we don't flood the country with millions of poor people each year. According to the Pew Hispanic Center, the number of illegal immigrants from Mexico between 2005 and 2010 was about 1.4 million immigrants, which is far less than millions per year. Additionally, the increase in illegal immigrants in recent years has actually flattened out, if not decreased some. The two largest groups of people under the poverty line are African Americans and Native Americans/Native Alaskans/Eskimos, neither of which see any significant illegal immigration at all.

    Drop the red herring and focus on the fact that poverty exists because we let it exist. We have a low minimum wage and allow wealth to flow upwards and stay concentrated at the top.
    No, we allow in a million a year LEGALLY each year, and of course, they are mostly poor. They are willing to work for low wages and compete with blacks , Native Americans and prior immigrants. We do not just allow poverty to exist, we intentionally cause it to increase. With 14 million unemployed, hiking the minimum wage will not solve the problem. What is the purpose of all that immigration?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    Because we don't flood the country with millions of poor people each year. According to the Pew Hispanic Center, the number of illegal immigrants from Mexico between 2005 and 2010 was about 1.4 million immigrants, which is far less than millions per year. Additionally, the increase in illegal immigrants in recent years has actually flattened out, if not decreased some. The two largest groups of people under the poverty line are African Americans and Native Americans/Native Alaskans/Eskimos, neither of which see any significant illegal immigration at all.

    Drop the red herring and focus on the fact that poverty exists because we let it exist. We have a low minimum wage and allow wealth to flow upwards and stay concentrated at the top.
    No, we allow in a million a year LEGALLY each year, and of course, they are mostly poor. They are willing to work for low wages and compete with blacks , Native Americans and prior immigrants. We do not just allow poverty to exist, we intentionally cause it to increase. With 14 million unemployed, hiking the minimum wage will not solve the problem. What is the purpose of all that immigration?

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