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  1. #51
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: Raise the minimum wage now

    I love those numbers flying around and just morphing mid-flight. It was millions, then it was a million, then it became hundreds of thousands...

    Dude, are you even remotely informed as to what the immigration processes to come to this country are? I mean, seriously, one shouldn't be so loud when they lack basic information...
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  2. #52
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: Raise the minimum wage now

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    The reason wages are so low is because there are so many people willing to work for those wages. Supply and demand. The Native Americans are not as poor as the Latinos who come long distances for the jobs.
    I'm still amazed at the logistical problem you overlook when you claim something like if we cut off hispanic immigration Native Americans on reservations and African Americans concentrated in inner cities where retail stores and grocery stores won't even open because of "crime" are somehow going to just fan out across the nation and fill every minimum wage job, thus ending the poverty issue.

  3. #53
    Sex God tigerfan482's Avatar
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    Re: Raise the minimum wage now

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    I'm still amazed at the logistical problem you overlook when you claim something like if we cut off hispanic immigration Native Americans on reservations and African Americans concentrated in inner cities where retail stores and grocery stores won't even open because of "crime" are somehow going to just fan out across the nation and fill every minimum wage job, thus ending the poverty issue.
    I'm amazed that people still hold the belief that if you were to get rid of all immigration, that wages will magically start to rise. There is a reason minimum wage jobs exist and that is because those that fill them aren't faced with a choice of the minimum wage job or one that pays more. They're faced with the choice of having a minimum wage job or no job at all. I don't see how people can say that if you raise the minimum wage jobs will disappear because employers won't be able to afford to pay the wages, but if you get rid of immigrants (with the mistaken idea that without those immigrants working those jobs that the wages for them will automatically go up to attract non-immigrants) that those same employers and those same jobs will magically stay even though wages will go up anyway.

  4. #54
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: Raise the minimum wage now

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    I'm amazed that people still hold the belief that if you were to get rid of all immigration, that wages will magically start to rise. There is a reason minimum wage jobs exist and that is because those that fill them aren't faced with a choice of the minimum wage job or one that pays more. They're faced with the choice of having a minimum wage job or no job at all. I don't see how people can say that if you raise the minimum wage jobs will disappear because employers won't be able to afford to pay the wages, but if you get rid of immigrants (with the mistaken idea that without those immigrants working those jobs that the wages for them will automatically go up to attract non-immigrants) that those same employers and those same jobs will magically stay even though wages will go up anyway.
    That's true too. It's like the inelasticity of gas prices, people pay it because they have to. The price doesn't go up or down based on demand. I agree the same is true of minimum wage jobs.

  5. #55
    stop the bullshit rareboy's Avatar
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    Re: Raise the minimum wage now

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    I'm amazed that people still hold the belief that if you were to get rid of all immigration, that wages will magically start to rise. There is a reason minimum wage jobs exist and that is because those that fill them aren't faced with a choice of the minimum wage job or one that pays more. They're faced with the choice of having a minimum wage job or no job at all. I don't see how people can say that if you raise the minimum wage jobs will disappear because employers won't be able to afford to pay the wages, but if you get rid of immigrants (with the mistaken idea that without those immigrants working those jobs that the wages for them will automatically go up to attract non-immigrants) that those same employers and those same jobs will magically stay even though wages will go up anyway.
    If many of the low wage jobs had paid a wage that would actually support a person...I'll bet that they wouldn't have had to hire so many immigrant labourers who ship all their yankee greenbacks home.

    It is just bullshit nonsense to say that jobs will disappear. They don't. They have already disappeared because lowering them to the bottom is a zero sum game that the third world has been 'winning', but won't in the long term.

  6. #56

    Re: Raise the minimum wage now

    Rachel said it best last night. Raising minimum wage doesn't hurt jobs. She has the stats to prove it.

    http://video.msnbc.msn.com/the-rache...9561/#50899561

  7. #57
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    Re: Raise the minimum wage now

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyBob View Post
    Rachel said it best last night. Raising minimum wage doesn't hurt jobs. She has the stats to prove it.

    http://video.msnbc.msn.com/the-rache...9561/#50899561
    Rachel is both correct and incorrect -- and that's a good place to start looking at the issue. She's incorrect because raising the minimum wage inevitably costs some jobs -- anecdotal evidence for that abounds. But she's correct because overall, raising the minimum improves the spending ability of those on the bottom in ways that result in the creation of new jobs. In honesty,
    what raising the minimum wage does to an economy is cause job displacement, not job loss.

    Now, some may say we shouldn't do that to people. But if that's the case, we shouldn't have a military, because merely having one causes job displacement, as spending by people who join it moves from their former areas of residence to new ones around military bases -- and the same holds for all aspects of government. In other words, the mere existence of government causes jobs displacement, no differently than do new inventions or taxes or trade treaties or other realities of life. So if we're going to accept all those other things -- and in general we do -- then we should accept raises in the minimum wage... for the same reason we accept the others, that being that on the whole they benefit our society.

    A second argument against the minimum wage is that it results in inflation. Again, this is a two-sided matter: for those who benefit from it, the increase actually defeats inflation, because their spending power is increased; the inflation itself comes slowly. Further, we have other ways to battle inflation, ones which do not rest on keeping part of the population in effective poverty. So again, the argument fails because it is a matter not of inflation itself, but of inflation relocation, i.e. the moving of where in the economic ladder it has most effect.

    The benefit of such a raise is plain and well-documented: people on the bottom have more to spend, and they do so, both immediately and steadily. That's good for them, good for those they buy from, good for everyone all the way to the top, since increased purchasing power by customers means increased receipts for companies. Thus in general the idea of raising the minimum wage is a good one for an economy.

    Nevertheless, there are two points where there is a negative result, yet again neither is a good argument against raising the minimum wage, since both may be addressed individually. The first is that entry-level jobs become slightly more scarce; the second is a bit less obvious: it increases the movement of money by government fiat up the economic ladder. This seems, and is indeed, opposite of the intent, and the means is hardly obvious -- but must be addressed. So, to address both these:

    To counter the issue of entry-level jobs, a simple adjustment to the law suffices: for those claimed as a dependent on someone else's tax form, an entry-level wage may be established at a level somewhat lower than the minimum. Thus, those depending on wages to maintain their own households can earn a wage allowing them some hope of doing so, while those not so dependent have the opportunity to earn (while merchants and others will have the opportunity to create jobs not presently in existence, as they would be able to hire people to do things otherwise not cost-effective.

    The problem of moving wealth up the ladder -- by government fiat -- is also simply addressed. It occurs because of the current structure of cost of living adjustments, known as COLAs. So long as these are done as a percentage of everyone's income, the net effect of a rise in the minimum wage will be a ripple upwards, so that when a COLA kicks in, those with already ample income get a bonus while those barely surviving get none. This, too, is easily resolved: define a COLA as a percentage of some basic set sum, such as an income at twice the poverty level, and award that set amount to everyone receiving a COLA. In this fashion, there will be no bonus, as everyone would receive an increase equal to the actual rise in the amount of what it costs to live.

    In summary, a bill to raise the minimum wage will be of benefit, but only if it contains as well the two provisions for an entry-level wage and a repair of the COLA system so that it no long directs wealth upward.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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