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  1. #51
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: Discussion: Can There Be True Happiness From Within the Closet?

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    If you are a kid who could be beat up by abusive parents, or cut off by fundamentalist parents, I believe you should lie, hide in the closet, change the subject, pretend you've "seen the light" or do whatever it takes to keep them quiet. Take every advantage you can grab until you're through school and can have a normal career like anyone else.

    If you're a person just looking for a nicer job, don't hide in the closet. But if you need to keep a basic job to survive, I don't blame people.
    Isn't that what I just said? If it didn't come across, then let me say I totally agree with this. I don't aim to discuss whether there are reasons to stay in the closet, or whether people should be out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pat grimshaw View Post
    What kind of discussion do you want to have here? Another absolute discussion where some are absolutely right and others are absolute wrong?



    I think individuals are individuals. I prefer not to listen to the dictates of others.
    I don't know why you bother posting in this forum, seriously.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  2. #52

    Re: Discussion: Can There Be True Happiness From Within the Closet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Since I saw an argument about this issue develop in a recent topic, and we should avoid discussions in other threads, I figured I might as well open a new one, dedicated to this conversation.

    So, can there be contentment and happiness in the long term while at the same time being closeted?
    For me...absolutely not. I think each person needs to define what happiness means to them and so there probably isn't a "correct" answer.

    I would think that people who define happiness as having money and power would be fine in the closet. Just look at the Politicians and Preachers (Larry Craig/Ted Haggard are two examples) who seems pretty "happy" in the closet.

  3. #53
    dances atop the bellcurve fetaby's Avatar
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    Re: Discussion: Can There Be True Happiness From Within the Closet?

    Tricky subject considering the contexts... If I was Ugandan, I'd more than likely be closeted.

    I've said before that the closet could be a "better" place, but it can never be the "best" place. We are sexual creatures and there is no way to hide that.

    Going back to Treacle's post and the Buddhist who doesn't function on the plane of sexuality... That's good for that guy, but the majority of society consider having an openly acknowledged, functioning sexuality as a marker of "happiness"/ "normalcy". In short, belonging to that majority average or feeling the pressure to conform to that average... That's why I think this discussion could veer off into other directions as well, i.e. asexuality.

    How many gay men or lesbians have convinced themselves that they are asexual or should be asexual?
    Please do not apologize for your opinion.

  4. #54
    I'm now a grandfather! JUB Moderator Seasoned's Avatar
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    Re: Discussion: Can There Be True Happiness From Within the Closet?

    Bemoaning societal ills is one thing but blaming the victim is quite another. Frankly, I can be sad or even angry if someone is in the closet, but it's really not my place to lecture or pontificate as to what they ought to do unless they ask me. Likewise for their happiness. If I work on mine they might see what I have and want what I have. In the end, happiness is relative and situational to all life's activities and nuances. The happiest days of my life occurred both in and out of the closet. Can you really be happy spending this much time trying to prove you're correct?
    "Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind."--Dr. Seuss

  5. #55
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: Discussion: Can There Be True Happiness From Within the Closet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seasoned View Post
    Bemoaning societal ills is one thing but blaming the victim is quite another. Frankly, I can be sad or even angry if someone is in the closet, but it's really not my place to lecture or pontificate as to what they ought to do unless they ask me. Likewise for their happiness. If I work on mine they might see what I have and want what I have. In the end, happiness is relative and situational to all life's activities and nuances. The happiest days of my life occurred both in and out of the closet. Can you really be happy spending this much time trying to prove you're correct?
    I am not blaming the victim. But thanks for adding to the chorus of the victimized :/
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  6. #56
    FEAR THE LIBERAL DETENTE! TX-Beau's Avatar
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    Re: Discussion: Can There Be True Happiness From Within the Closet?

    Hmmmm. curioser and curioser.

    First off, if you live in Iran and are gay - your circumstances are vastly different to a guy living in England or Canada - so different as to make ANY comparison of the two utterly ridiculous. IF someone can legally to KILL you, HIDE!!!!!!!!!!!! But no, that isn't the case in Ottawa, or fuck even in Austin.

    So lets just say that particular dog won't hunt. In the west (which is where most of us are) the decision to be closeted has nothing to do with legal murder or societal banning, which is the number one justification for the closet, and frankly, this board of all the gay boards I've ever posted on, does the most justifying of the big lie, the closet.

    If you live in a family of fundies - who knows they just might surprise you - mine did - but you will never know until you give them the chance to be decent people, and I don't see how you can tolerate a life of lie and find happiness, and I really don't think that "happy" is the right word anyway. I suspect what Rolyo was getting at, and the dudgeon of a certain poster that created this thread was about self worth, arising from a conversation about "labeling."

    If you go through life hiding who you are, fearing discovery, lying to some woman, pulling away from people, being anti-social, etc, all the things the closet forces you to do, I fail to see how that doesn't take it's toll - in fact I know it does, the closet is not some benign "lifestyle choice," it's fear, it's internalized homophobia - it's accepting that being who you are must be shrouded in shame and secrecy.

    We can pretend that it's something else all we like - but that is what it is - the acceptance that we are lesser, that our sexuality must be hidden from the view of decent people, that it's somehow "privacy" when really it's just what it is, fear and shame.

    There isn't a single one of us who chose to be in the closet. We were all pushed there, and if we don't out people, it's because we know what it's like to live in that place, how hard it can be to find your courage - NOT because there is any validity or "lifestyle" or right to lying to our friends and families.

    I don't know what "happiness" means to whomever, but I do know that hiding who you are isn't anything more than thinking there is something about yourself that needs to be hidden, and that, is where the poison seeps in. I don't think anyone can live like that without repercussions.
    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

  7. #57
    美しいヨーロッパ Scealle's Avatar
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    Re: Discussion: Can There Be True Happiness From Within the Closet?

    It depends and varies on person. But personally I would say no.

  8. #58
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    Hmmmm. curioser and curioser.

    First off, if you live in Iran and are gay - your circumstances are vastly different to a guy living in England or Canada - so different as to make ANY comparison of the two utterly ridiculous. IF someone can legally to KILL you, HIDE!!!!!!!!!!!! But no, that isn't the case in Ottawa, or fuck even in Austin.

    So lets just say that particular dog won't hunt. In the west (which is where most of us are) the decision to be closeted has nothing to do with legal murder or societal banning, which is the number one justification for the closet, and frankly, this board of all the gay boards I've ever posted on, does the most justifying of the big lie, the closet.

    If you live in a family of fundies - who knows they just might surprise you - mine did - but you will never know until you give them the chance to be decent people, and I don't see how you can tolerate a life of lie and find happiness, and I really don't think that "happy" is the right word anyway. I suspect what Rolyo was getting at, and the dudgeon of a certain poster that created this thread was about self worth, arising from a conversation about "labeling."

    If you go through life hiding who you are, fearing discovery, lying to some woman, pulling away from people, being anti-social, etc, all the things the closet forces you to do, I fail to see how that doesn't take it's toll - in fact I know it does, the closet is not some benign "lifestyle choice," it's fear, it's internalized homophobia - it's accepting that being who you are must be shrouded in shame and secrecy.

    We can pretend that it's something else all we like - but that is what it is - the acceptance that we are lesser, that our sexuality must be hidden from the view of decent people, that it's somehow "privacy" when really it's just what it is, fear and shame.

    There isn't a single one of us who chose to be in the closet. We were all pushed there, and if we don't out people, it's because we know what it's like to live in that place, how hard it can be to find your courage - NOT because there is any validity or "lifestyle" or right to lying to our friends and families.

    I don't know what "happiness" means to whomever, but I do know that hiding who you are isn't anything more than thinking there is something about yourself that needs to be hidden, and that, is where the poison seeps in. I don't think anyone can live like that without repercussions.
    This. Exactly. It just isn't possible to spend your life hiding yourself and not have that fuck you up to a degree.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

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