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  1. #1
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Discussion: Can There Be True Happiness From Within the Closet?

    Since I saw an argument about this issue develop in a recent topic, and we should avoid discussions in other threads, I figured I might as well open a new one, dedicated to this conversation.

    So, can there be contentment and happiness in the long term while at the same time being closeted?
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

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    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: Discussion: Can There Be True Happiness From Within the Closet?

    Happiness should not be circumscribed by a closet.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: Discussion: Can There Be True Happiness From Within the Closet?

    I don't know what you mean by that.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  4. #4
    Hard-up1
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    Re: Discussion: Can There Be True Happiness From Within the Closet?

    True happiness is as pejorative as true believer, true liberal or true patriot. To title your thread so suggests that you are not in fact open to the possibility that men whose homosexuality is a private affair are bona fide.

    As such, you are not likely to get anything like a sincere response in defense of it, unless Medusa comes back.

    And, because we have so many closeted gay men on this site, many of whom are likely the lurkers, you simply stand to reinforce the notion that those men are second class citizens and disrespected in both the heterosexual society at large, and the out gay population. It is not unlike the prevalence of gay men having unprotected sex, but not talking about it on JUB. There is also precious little talk of venereal disease that is possible via oral sex, as if HIV is the only issue when discussing condoms.

    On balance, I'd be interested in hearing from you how much coming out cost you, whether a friend or mentor helped you do it, and your experiences in helping other closeted friends and acquaintances in coming out, where, and how long ago.

    For my own part, I had come out late, and wanted more of life, but had been happy in my 45 years on this earth. Like many people, I had ups and downs, a dysfunctional family, poverty, regional limitations and cultural isolation. But, I also had great friends, successively better jobs and income, loving family, my share of adventure, creative outlets, and a life free of war and privations as an adult.

    Happiness is by definition qualitative and not quantitative and is inherently subjective. It's not something that can be argued and debated, or judged by another.

    A more positive approach at enlightening closeted men on the virtues of living out would be to inspire them, not shame them.
    Last edited by Hard-up1; February 16th, 2013 at 05:08 AM.

  5. #5
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: Discussion: Can There Be True Happiness From Within the Closet?

    Well, actually, I started this topic in CO&R, not here, because the issue comes up so often there. Also, I was hoping for TX-Beau to participate, which is now unlikely.

    And of course, the word "true" is not right. I should have said "real".

    I don't believe closeted people are a second class citizens, but I do believe they are always unhappy to one degree or another. Living a lie is too much pressure, too much tension. Having a giant secret that people just can't know or life will be over (as many guys think, including me before coming out)... how do you find any sort of contentment in that mindset?

    As for me, coming out cost me nothing, and I did it on my own. I just got to a point where I couldn't stand lying to myself and others, and... stopped. It took me a few months to adjust, even though learning about myself of course took much longer. As for helping, I have a lot of experiences and they're all different...

    Either way, this is not a thread about whether it's easy to come out or not. Even in the most welcoming environment, coming out is rarely easy. The question is, can you really live your life to its full (or at least close to) potential from inside the closet. Sorry if the subject seems offensive.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  6. #6
    The gay gargoyle
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    Re: Discussion: Can There Be True Happiness From Within the Closet?

    Can some people be truly happy while remaining closeted, either somewhat or completely? Without question. Can ALL people be truly happy while remaining closeted, either somewhat or completely? Definitely not.

    Lex

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    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: Discussion: Can There Be True Happiness From Within the Closet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    I don't know what you mean by that.
    It's not whether happiness can exist in the closet, it's whether it should be limited by the constraints of the closet. Happiness should shine out like starlight and the radiation from the big bang.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  8. #8
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: Discussion: Can There Be True Happiness From Within the Closet?

    Quote Originally Posted by G-Lexington View Post
    Can some people be truly happy while remaining closeted, either somewhat or completely? Without question. Can ALL people be truly happy while remaining closeted, either somewhat or completely? Definitely not.

    Lex
    I absolutely question it, actually. With conviction.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  9. #9
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    Re: Discussion: Can There Be True Happiness From Within the Closet?

    You can be mentally healthy and perfectly well-adjusted while still being in the closet, and I have also heard that some lifelong chain-smokers live until well into their late 90's. That doesn't mean that either is advisable.

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    Re: Discussion: Can There Be True Happiness From Within the Closet?

    You can be truly happy in the closet and truly miserable outside of it.
    In his autumn, before the winter, comes man's last mad surge of youth

  11. #11
    Hard-up1
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    Re: Discussion: Can There Be True Happiness From Within the Closet?

    "Real" or "true," it does not make any difference when you are loading the argument.

    People can and have been happy despite living in horrible conditions, and equally, people have been miserable when living in ideal conditions.

    That living life closeted is not to the fullest is both trite to say and empirically obvious. What you are willfully ignoring is that most of those men have made the evaluation and chosen to not live the fullest based on what it would in fact cost them, or what it would have to be more exact for older gay men.

    Happiness is vague and subjective. If you were to obscure the out or closeted status of members of JUB, and ask a stranger to rate posters as happy or unhappy, you wouldn't find any direct correlation.

    The use of happy is just a pretext to launch a thread against closeted gays, which isn't likely to go anywhere. The subject is not at all offensive -- the setup to denigrate is.
    Last edited by Hard-up1; February 16th, 2013 at 11:37 AM.

  12. #12
    RazorzEdge88
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    Re: Discussion: Can There Be True Happiness From Within the Closet?

    Hard-up, why are you still closeted?

  13. #13
    Hard-up1
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    Re: Discussion: Can There Be True Happiness From Within the Closet?

    Why do you think that I am? I've been out for almost as long as I've been on JUB.

    That's kind of like me asking you why you drive a Pontiac? It's a bit random to assume, isn't it?

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    Re: Discussion: Can There Be True Happiness From Within the Closet?

    Can there ever be true happiness from within the toilet?
    If there is, does it require air freshener?

  15. #15
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: Discussion: Can There Be True Happiness From Within the Closet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Since I saw an argument about this issue develop in a recent topic, and we should avoid discussions in other threads, I figured I might as well open a new one, dedicated to this conversation.

    So, can there be contentment and happiness in the long term while at the same time being closeted?
    I want to sidestep the argument of "can it be done in or out of the closet better/more truly/more easily" because I don't think it's strictly material to whether or not someone's happy. Being happy doesn't have to have rational reasons. How many times have you heard old people say something like "oh back then we had no money but we were pretty happy"? We could just as easily sit and have a discussion about how if you're in privation and always worrying about money or how you're going to pay the bills or eat this month, how could anyone truly be happy? But people report this condition all the time. Happiness is a feeling or a state of mind and it can't be rationally pinned down to being tied to specific factors of one's life as "prerequisites" of it. Someone else might ask "can you ever be happy single?" I like being single, at least when it's by choice.

  16. #16
    Hard-up1
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    Re: Discussion: Can There Be True Happiness From Within the Closet?

    I want to clarify that I certainly encourage gay men to live out, but I do think it is an assessment the man has to make based on what he values in life and what coming out will gain him, or not.

    And, to be sure, the cause of gay rights needs more and more gays to live out, for sheer visibility, even though are numbers ARE actually small when compared to heterosexuals.

    But, I have often worked with engineers, who often cannot be even bothered to speak socially when spoken to, and have pretty introverted personalities. For many of them, I cannot imagine how living out would make them any happier.

    For me, I loved life before, but I love different aspects of it now, after I have come out. I certainly don't find much resonance in gay groups here in my town, but I have tried, and am at least glad I saw what was there if I wanted to join in.

  17. #17
    JUB Addict The Fly's Avatar
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    Re: Discussion: Can There Be True Happiness From Within the Closet?

    You can be totally happy in the closet.....if you're a moth......j/k


    I kid because I'm still waiting for the lecture we all know is comming from the OP. There was no "real" or "true" question here. This is simply an created opportunity for the OP to lecture those who may be in the closet.

  18. #18
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    Re: Discussion: Can There Be True Happiness From Within the Closet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    I absolutely question it, actually. With conviction.
    Was this a professor question, then? One where there already is a decidedly correct answer?

    There are people who live very happy lives while closeted. In the past, in the present, in the future. They have little to no trouble keeping their private life private, and their secret hook-ups secret. They don't feel doing so invalidates them in any way. They don't fear the discovery because they're experts at juggling those two parts of their lives. If you accuse them of living a double life, they'll probably agree with that assessment.

    Could I live a happy closeted life? No. I probably woudn't be happy as a factory worker or ski instructor, either. But that doesn't mean nobody could. It just takes a different type of person to do it.

    Lex

  19. #19
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    Re: Discussion: Can There Be True Happiness From Within the Closet?

    my initial reaction was: no.

    but then i thought about it for a minute...

    i have a friend who is indian. she lives in the uk, but her family is still in india. shes out to everybody she knows in the uk and in her everyday life, but to none of her family in india. i dont know about "true happiness" but she seems emotinally and mentally healthy to me.

  20. #20
    Hard-up1
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    Re: Discussion: Can There Be True Happiness From Within the Closet?

    Quote Originally Posted by hylas View Post
    my initial reaction was: no.

    but then i thought about it for a minute...

    i have a friend who is indian. she lives in the uk, but her family is still in india. shes out to everybody she knows in the uk and in her everyday life, but to none of her family in india. i dont know about "true happiness" but she seems emotinally and mentally healthy to me.
    Your statement might be interpreted as portraying your lesbian friend as simply choosing where to bring it, so to speak. It sounds like she has taken her stand where she lives her life, but chosen to avoid causing certain conflict with family back home because they are either unable or unwilling to accept it.

    I wouldn't even see that as closeted particularly, but more of a case of not begging a fight that isn't going to gain any ground anyway.

  21. #21

    Re: Discussion: Can There Be True Happiness From Within the Closet?

    A weird perspective: I'm a Buddhist. Traditionally, Buddhism has framed the monastic lifestyle of renunciation as the path leading to happiness. I've met many celibate monastics who are some of the happiest people in the world. I heard one monk put it that he "doesn't live in that realm [sexuality] anymore" which has allowed him a tremendous sense of freedom and happiness.

    However, in Buddhism, one of the preconditions for true happiness is sila: ethical living. One of the precepts is to refrain from telling that which you know to be untrue. This isn't some moral injuction, as with the Ten Commandment in Judeo-Christianity, but a guiding principle: living with integrity frees you from the suffering that is often the fruit of lying or hiding truths about yourself. You don't have to keep up with what story you told to whom. You don't have to feel like there is a disconnection between yourself and those you interact with. When we live with integrity, our lives become whole.

    I have met a lot of people for whom the discussion of their sexuality may not come up in their everyday conversation, but... in our culture, it's hard to avoid. I can't imagine having to pretend not to be attracted to men anymore. I have straight male friends who talk about girls. If I weren't out, I'd probably have to lie to them. They know I'm gay, and so know what things I can and can't talk about honestly, lol. It makes things much simpler when you can only be honest. Of course, that is an ethical standard I have undertaken by my own free will -- not because lying is inherently wrong -- but because it prevents me from experiencing unnecessary suffering. I would probably be somewhat less happy if I were still in the closet.

    EDIT: I'm also assuming that another precondition for happiness is present -- safety. I can't blame someone from being closeted if they're in an unsafe/hostile environment. However, I'd ideally like to see them get out of such a place so that they no longer have to feel unsafe, and also a gradual enlightenment within society so that those unsafe places dwindle down.
    Last edited by BrimstoneAndTreacle; February 16th, 2013 at 12:54 PM.

  22. #22
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    Re: Discussion: Can There Be True Happiness From Within the Closet?

    I'm closeted and plan to remain so. I simply couldn't say that I'm 'unhappy' because it it

    If I was to come out, lets see.... I'd lose family, home, which would lead to job loss, and basically in the long run loss of life ()
    Last edited by 72-Jay; February 16th, 2013 at 01:24 PM. Reason: made a change

  23. #23
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    Re: Discussion: Can There Be True Happiness From Within the Closet?

    Quote Originally Posted by 72-Jay View Post
    I'm closeted and plan to remain so. I simply couldn't say that I'm 'unhappy' because it it

    If I was to come out, lets see.... I'd lose family, home, which would lead to job loss, and basically in the long run loss of life (hmmm maybe not such a bad thing)
    you're in the closet and think that dying is good?

    but coming out of the closet you would lose things that matter to you
    but you still would want to die.

    that's not a good way to think.

    hope you resolve your issues.
    Last edited by PreTTy PeTe; February 16th, 2013 at 01:27 PM.




  24. #24
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard-up1 View Post
    That living life closeted is not to the fullest is both trite to say and empirically obvious. What you are willfully ignoring is that most of those men have made the evaluation and chosen to not live the fullest based on what it would in fact cost them, or what it would have to be more exact for older gay men.
    Disagree. I am yet to meet or hear of hear of a closeted guy who made "evaluations" of any kind. For most being closeted is a matter of either denial, or fear of repercussions - real or imaginary.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  25. #25
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post

    I want to sidestep the argument of "can it be done in or out of the closet better/more truly/more easily" because I don't think it's strictly material to whether or not someone's happy. Being happy doesn't have to have rational reasons. How many times have you heard old people say something like "oh back then we had no money but we were pretty happy"? We could just as easily sit and have a discussion about how if you're in privation and always worrying about money or how you're going to pay the bills or eat this month, how could anyone truly be happy? But people report this condition all the time. Happiness is a feeling or a state of mind and it can't be rationally pinned down to being tied to specific factors of one's life as "prerequisites" of it. Someone else might ask "can you ever be happy single?" I like being single, at least when it's by choice.
    However, you end up equating being closeted with material woes. It is not the same. While being poor can be psychologically taxing - I mean, I'd know -_- - it doesn't come close to the damage that being closeted causes - as, frankly, a good 99% also know. And being content with your life IS a function of your emotional/psychological balance.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  26. #26
    RazorzEdge88
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    Re: Discussion: Can There Be True Happiness From Within the Closet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    And being content with your life IS a function of your emotional/psychological balance.
    But still, how close is the correlation with being in the closet, specifically, and how can anyone even go about quantifying "happiness" in any event?

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    ForeverSingle+Unloveable 72-Jay's Avatar
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    Re: Discussion: Can There Be True Happiness From Within the Closet?

    @PreTTy PeTe:
    LOL I edited that last part off as soon as the page finally refreshed (site is so slloow to load) because I decided it was unnecessary LOL

    Life can be sucky for reasons other than being closeted
    Last edited by 72-Jay; February 16th, 2013 at 01:46 PM.

  28. #28
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hylas View Post
    my initial reaction was: no.

    but then i thought about it for a minute...

    i have a friend who is indian. she lives in the uk, but her family is still in india. shes out to everybody she knows in the uk and in her everyday life, but to none of her family in india. i dont know about "true happiness" but she seems emotinally and mentally healthy to me.
    It's much easier to keep a secret from people far away. In the context of her everyday life, I wouldn't your friend closeted.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  29. #29
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: Discussion: Can There Be True Happiness From Within the Closet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    However, you end up equating being closeted with material woes. It is not the same. While being poor can be psychologically taxing - I mean, I'd know -_- - it doesn't come close to the damage that being closeted causes - as, frankly, a good 99% also know. And being content with your life IS a function of your emotional/psychological balance.
    History is full of stories of secret romances though, including plenty of hetero ones.

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    Re: Discussion: Can There Be True Happiness From Within the Closet?

    Quote Originally Posted by 72-Jay View Post
    @PreTTy PeTe:
    LOL I edited that last part off as soon as the page finally refreshed (site is so slloow to load) because I decided it was unnecessary LOL

    Life can be sucky for reasons other than being closeted
    my apologies if I was quick on the draw. having lost a really close friend to suicide last year this hit me hard.

    I understand what you mean.

    everybody ignore my previous post just like you ignore all my other posts




  31. #31
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrimstoneAndTreacle View Post
    A weird perspective: I'm a Buddhist. Traditionally, Buddhism has framed the monastic lifestyle of renunciation as the path leading to happiness. I've met many celibate monastics who are some of the happiest people in the world. I heard one monk put it that he "doesn't live in that realm [sexuality] anymore" which has allowed him a tremendous sense of freedom and happiness.

    However, in Buddhism, one of the preconditions for true happiness is sila: ethical living. One of the precepts is to refrain from telling that which you know to be untrue. This isn't some moral injuction, as with the Ten Commandment in Judeo-Christianity, but a guiding principle: living with integrity frees you from the suffering that is often the fruit of lying or hiding truths about yourself. You don't have to keep up with what story you told to whom. You don't have to feel like there is a disconnection between yourself and those you interact with. When we live with integrity, our lives become whole.

    I have met a lot of people for whom the discussion of their sexuality may not come up in their everyday conversation, but... in our culture, it's hard to avoid. I can't imagine having to pretend not to be attracted to men anymore. I have straight male friends who talk about girls. If I weren't out, I'd probably have to lie to them. They know I'm gay, and so know what things I can and can't talk about honestly, lol. It makes things much simpler when you can only be honest. Of course, that is an ethical standard I have undertaken by my own free will -- not because lying is inherently wrong -- but because it prevents me from experiencing unnecessary suffering. I would probably be somewhat less happy if I were still in the closet.

    EDIT: I'm also assuming that another precondition for happiness is present -- safety. I can't blame someone from being closeted if they're in an unsafe/hostile environment. However, I'd ideally like to see them get out of such a place so that they no longer have to feel unsafe, and also a gradual enlightenment within society so that those unsafe places dwindle down.
    That's sorta where I am in my thoughts on it, however much the Knee Jerk Brigade is trying to make appear like I'm closet-bashing. The closet is a disgusting abomination that society has forced on us. Doesn't mean I'm judging anyone in it. We've all been there and for many guys across the world it's still literally impossible to be out because of where they are and their personal circumstances.

    The topic has NO intention of bashing anyone.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  32. #32
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 72-Jay View Post
    I'm closeted and plan to remain so. I simply couldn't say that I'm 'unhappy' because it it

    If I was to come out, lets see.... I'd lose family, home, which would lead to job loss, and basically in the long run loss of life ()
    I hope your circumstances improve. I wish you all the best!
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by RazorzEdge88 View Post
    But still, how close is the correlation with being in the closet, specifically, and how can anyone even go about quantifying "happiness" in any event?
    Which is why I'm not making a statement but discussing it. See BreamstoneAndTreacle's post.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post

    History is full of stories of secret romances though, including plenty of hetero ones.
    Only heterosexual ones actually, and they had nothing to do with self-denial and self-hatred. And the closet is a product of those, whether the closeted person feel them or not.

    And frankly, the stories of successful romances from within the closet are rare at best...
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

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    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Oh, and an addition to my response to buzzer.


    The closet has become more and more socially unacceptable with the advent if gay rights. It is more and more lonely there, and not because of some evil out gay bullying, but simply due to contrast. A 100 years ago, EVERYONE was closeted (with a few colorful exceptions). That was just "the way it was", and as such - normalish, even if uncomfortable.

    Things are different now. With so many of us out, we provide a stark contrast to the secrecy and lying of the closet. And I think that takes a hard emotional toll.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

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    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: Discussion: Can There Be True Happiness From Within the Closet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Only heterosexual ones actually, and they had nothing to do with self-denial and self-hatred. And the closet is a product of those, whether the closeted person feel them or not.

    And frankly, the stories of successful romances from within the closet are rare at best...
    Rolyo, if you had to be in the closet to save your life, is that self hatred necessarily?

    I think you're leaping to conclusions.

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    Oh, cum now! peeonme's Avatar
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    Re: Discussion: Can There Be True Happiness From Within the Closet?

    I will answer you in this way, I am as far as I know the only gay guy where I work, oddly enough I am also the happiest.
    I find myself waking around with a smile on my face and others asking me why.
    I am married and in the closet, I don't cheat on my wife... our marriage is sexless now due to her illnesses. She has had a stroke and other problems, yes, I would like to find a guy to have fun with, but, I would not be happy with myself after I did it.
    So, my sex life is spent in front of my computer and I am happy that I have kept my word.
    I was in denial when we married, coming out of denial and being honest with myself has done more to make me happy then all of the sex I could ever obtain.

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    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post

    Rolyo, if you had to be in the closet to save your life, is that self hatred necessarily?

    I think you're leaping to conclusions.
    No, of course it's not. But it's still a construct based on the assumption that you're inferior, lesser and "wrong". How long can you stay trapped in that construct before this belief starts seeping in you?
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

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    Re: Discussion: Can There Be True Happiness From Within the Closet?

    Quote Originally Posted by PreTTy PeTe
    my apologies if I was quick on the draw. having lost a really close friend to suicide last year this hit me hard.
    I understand what you mean.
    LOL no problems
    Sorry to hear about your friend
    Also want to add I am in no way suicidal

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    Re: Discussion: Can There Be True Happiness From Within the Closet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard-up1 View Post
    For my own part, I had come out late, and wanted more of life, but had been happy in my 45 years on this earth. Like many people, I had ups and downs, a dysfunctional family, poverty, regional limitations and cultural isolation. But, I also had great friends, successively better jobs and income, loving family, my share of adventure, creative outlets, and a life free of war and privations as an adult.

    Happiness is by definition qualitative and not quantitative and is inherently subjective. It's not something that can be argued and debated, or judged by another.
    That was me as well, and I was generally quite happy because I'm a bit of a loner by nature. But then one day it really hit me.....
    I realized that I wanted MORE from life.

    I think there are various degrees of happiness. You can be happy in the closet as long as intimacy and sex don't matter, but when they DO.... things change.

  41. #41
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    Re: Discussion: Can There Be True Happiness From Within the Closet?

    sometimes being out is not all cracked up how it's made out to be. it's on a person to person basis. the truth can set you free but it can also cause more harm than good. plenty of people have died because of the truth. either them or somebody couldn't take it.
    Last edited by refujiunderground; February 16th, 2013 at 04:34 PM.
    one thing about the closet/you don't have to hurry/it will be bad tomorrow/so brother, don't you worry

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    veni, vidi, reliqui
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    Re: Discussion: Can There Be True Happiness From Within the Closet?

    No.

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    Re: Discussion: Can There Be True Happiness From Within the Closet?

    Quote Originally Posted by refujiunderground View Post
    sometimes being out is not all cracked up how it's made out to be. it's on a person to person basis. the truth can set you free but it can also cause more harm than good. plenty of people have died because of the truth. either them or somebody couldn't take it.
    I don't mean to imply that being out is in any way related to happiness. I only think that being closeted is related to unhappiness.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

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    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: Discussion: Can There Be True Happiness From Within the Closet?

    I agree with those of you who make the point about safety.

    If a person has to fear for their life or their job on account of being gay, the closet is a magical fortress of safety inside which happiness can flourish, and whose door should be carefully guarded. But if there is a safe path out, the closet instantly fills with liquid cowardice, and the only way for happiness to survive is to take the path out.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    JUB Addict maxpowr9's Avatar
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    Re: Discussion: Can There Be True Happiness From Within the Closet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    I don't mean to imply that being out is in any way related to happiness. I only think that being closeted is related to unhappiness.
    Future reference hun. Don't say anything is an "absolute" because it will immediately lead to dissenters. "Truth" is an absolute and fuck the subjunctive: "truthiness". This is something that "lawyers" learn to do well.

    I personally feel that "true happiness" is a paradox [fuck nirvana] as one cannot understand what it means to be happy without sorrow/misery. Unless one has hit 'lows' they would not know what a 'high' is.

    If you want my personal take on this predicament, I apply the adage that: "you cannot love anybody else until you love yourself". To deny what you are is to not love yourself.

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    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: Discussion: Can There Be True Happiness From Within the Closet?

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    I agree with those of you who make the point about safety.

    If a person has to fear for their life or their job on account of being gay, the closet is a magical fortress of safety inside which happiness can flourish, and whose door should be carefully guarded. But if there is a safe path out, the closet instantly fills with liquid cowardice, and the only way for happiness to survive is to take the path out.
    You know, while I get the safety thing to an extent, I seriously don't get the job. I encounter this so often, and it baffles me - "I want to be in marketing, and they are very conservative, so I'll be closeted". I mean, to me that's totally fucked up priorities. I am not saying everyone should be in interior design, fashion and musical theater, but to me, if the choice is between living a lie all your life, and going into a different field which is more accepting or at least more diverse, you shouldn't pick the lie...

    As for fearing for your life, it is quite the same. Unless you are a kid living with your homophobic parents, or if they pay for your school, you are rarely stuck to any place. Why do so many gay guys live in the big cities? Because more gay people are born there? No. It's because people who want a better life, move to where better life happens. I moved a continent and a half, plus an ocean, to get to a place where better life happens, but someone growing up in Bumfuck, South Carolina, can't move to DC?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by maxpowr9 View Post
    If you want my personal take on this predicament, I apply the adage that: "you cannot love anybody else until you love yourself". To deny what you are is to not love yourself.
    That's very well put.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  47. #47

    Re: Discussion: Can There Be True Happiness From Within the Closet?

    Rolyo- while I'm sure you're a nice guy, and well intentioned, after reading this entire thread you're really coming across as one of those religious extremist bible thumpers who can't accept the fact that people can be happy without living life just like you do.

    If what you're doing works for you, that's awesome, but that doesn't give you the right to judge them and their behavior/diversity or look down your nose in contempt.
    http://www.justusboys.com/forum/signaturepics/sigpic216959_1.gif

  48. #48
    Look, listen and rejoice oakpope's Avatar
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    Re: Discussion: Can There Be True Happiness From Within the Closet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    And of course, the word "true" is not right. I should have said "real".
    Sorry to be off topic, but you stumbled into one of my pet peeve : what is the difference between reality and truth ? Can falsehood be real ? Can truth be outside reality ? Can something real be false ?
    Magna Veritas


  49. #49
    Look, listen and rejoice oakpope's Avatar
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    Re: Discussion: Can There Be True Happiness From Within the Closet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    The closet is a disgusting abomination that society has forced on us.
    I don't believe it is entirely true. The closet exists also because homosexuality is in the minority, so anybody would assume you're straight the first time they meet you. So every time you meet a stranger you're in a closet until you step outside (or that visually the clues are self evident). That one has to remain in one because of fear of others negative reactions, there lays the abomination, for me.
    Magna Veritas


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    Re: Discussion: Can There Be True Happiness From Within the Closet?

    Quote Originally Posted by borg69unimatrix View Post
    Rolyo- while I'm sure you're a nice guy, and well intentioned, after reading this entire thread you're really coming across as one of those religious extremist bible thumpers who can't accept the fact that people can be happy without living life just like you do.

    If what you're doing works for you, that's awesome, but that doesn't give you the right to judge them and their behavior/diversity or look down your nose in contempt.
    Well, too bad if that's how I come across. That would be missing the point, frankly. I don't know what else to say. I mean, you're basically equating being closeted with a lifestyle, as if it's something freely chosen.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

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