Blame Reagan?

[tigerfan482]

The constitution has nothing to do with my post.

I would assume it does since you're talking about what the role of our government is and the Constitution is what establishes not only the setup of our government, but the role it plays. But silly me thinking that you would actually include that bit of information in your considerations.

[CTF]

I ran across an article detailing a serious link between two social phenomena, both of which used to be rare. But when one began to increase, so did the other, with a lag of a few years.

The first is non-institutionalization of late teen and early to mid twenties males with schizophrenia and some other severe mental disorders. Now, if blame can be pinned on the 'first mover', this has to be plopped at the feet of none other than Ronald Reagan (himself a schizophrenic sort of president, with some brilliant foreign policy and absolutely bizarre domestic), the one who got government to agree that not taking care of people is the best way to take care of them. So lots of mentally unstable young men were left to wander the streets, cling to families because they couldn't deal with the world, and turn a few jails in the United States into the world's largest de facto mental institutions.

That's sad in itself; if we are a people, it behooves us to take care of "the least" among us, besides the fact that it makes good practical sense to care for such folks so they don't make a mess of the country for the rest of us. But it's truly tragic because of the very strong link to the other social phenomenon in question.

And if we stick to the 'first mover' proposition, then it's entirely legitimate to lay the blame for the increase in mass shootings in America at the feet of Ronald Reagan.

For not being brilliant enough to prevent or stop what his advisors, and corporate puppet masters were telling him to do?

State Hospitals, Sanitariums, and other institutions were a money drain on both Medicare, Medicade, and other taxpayer funded "safety nets."

America was "privatizing" both Federal and State Prisons at the time, so why not populate them with inmates that were already forgotten to the world?

A byproduct of that was that "mental illness" was truly about as "criminal" as pot possession, but there was a "War On Drugs" going on that the time.

Just Say No.

But what paper thin restrictions against Wall Street were being lifted at the time (because they were already buying and paying for Washington Power), the new "Free Market" was taking over.

Mental Illness in America doesn't exist.

Big Pharma, and their lobbiest in Washington have seen to that.

And if someone who's mentally ill gets a hold of a gun because the National Rifle Association and their lobbiest have watered down ANY restrictions to prevent them from doing so, we're going to salve our National Wounds by blaming this on a B-List Actor who became President.

What America lacks, and has lacked since President Nixon is LEADERSHIP.

Which is one of the reasons why, when it comes to American Presidents, that there's a special place in American Democracy Hell for Nixon and GOP Presidents since him.

And there's a caveat:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...v=KCOd-qWZB_g#!

When Nixon waved good by, his arms wiped away any respect that Americans once revered of our Highest Office.

President Ford pardoned him.

President Jimmy Carter gave his "malaise speech."

Known historically as his "Crisis of Confidence Speach:"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...v=KCOd-qWZB_g#!

Weeks later American Hostages were taken in Iran, and nothing that Carter said mattered.

Americans wanted a President to make them feel good about being an "American" again.

So Corporate America; Wall Street, Madison Avenue, and "conservatives" stepped in and gave us and our Parents what the "free market" wanted; Someone to tell us lies, sweet little lies.

So to blame this solely on Reagan serves no purpose.

It only tickles the fancy of the "sound bite generation" and does nothing to encourage our youth and the next generation to study or to know even the history of the generation that came before them!

I'm reminded of one of my favorite T-Shirts during the height of the AIDS Epidemic:

DON'T HATE EDUCATE

But like in 1960 when President Eisenhower warned us of the "Military Industrial Complex," President Carter warned us in on 1979 of where we are, "the mistaken idea of freedom," and no one wanted to hear it.

We're more than 30 years in.

And we've all taken the least path of resistance.

The least that's required from us as Americans, while we divide ourselves between each other, while the greatest enemy of our Republic Comes from within.

[maxpowr9]

You will have to remind me who said the quote that fascism will come to America with the Cross wrapped in the American flag or something along those lines because that is what I feel about the current GOP.

The Democrats just have to keep the course and not let them get complacent like in 2008 that the US wants "leftist" policies. The US has always been socially liberal but fiscally conservative [and no, the GOP are not "fiscally conservative". They haven't been since HW Bush] which is why the US succeeds as it does.

[CTF]

You will have to remind me who said the quote that fascism will come to America with the Cross wrapped in the American flag or something along those lines because that is what I feel about the current GOP.

Sinclair Lewis, 1935.

The Democrats just have to keep the course and not let them get complacent like in 2008 that the US wants "leftist" policies. The US has always been socially liberal but fiscally conservative [and no, the GOP are not "fiscally conservative". They haven't been since HW Bush] which is why the US succeeds as it does.

There was a time where I would have disagreed with you with both fists.

Now it seems that you're correct.

Here's another quote for you:

There are three kinds of lies; lies, damned lies, and statistics! ~Mark Twain

And neither the Democrats or the Republicans, or the American Electorate can tell the difference.

And Corporate Media plays its roll in ensuring that we remain that way.



'

[maxpowr9]

And neither the Democrats or the Republicans, or the American Electorate can tell the difference.

And Corporate Media plays its roll in ensuring that we remain that way.

I may get a lot of shit on the forums but someone who cares about our country would not kowtow [Jayhawk's favorite befuddled word] to either party. Both sides have their faults [much more on the GOP side than the Dem side ATM] and any sensible American would realize that. If the Democrats could keep to the centrist message and not venture off in the "red" pool, they will be okay for the rest of the decade.

[CTF]

I may get a lot of shit on the forums but someone who cares about our country would not kowtow [Jayhawk's favorite befuddled word] to either party. Both sides have their faults [much more on the GOP side than the Dem side ATM] and any sensible American would realize that. If the Democrats could keep to the centrist message and not venture off in the "red" pool, they will be okay for the rest of the decade.

Heretic!



~

How dare you speak such truths and expose yourself in this sub-forum?





Both parties have sold us out, and have been doing so for decades.

[GiancarloC]

You read, but you failed to comprehend. As is to be expected.

More ridiculous nonsense. This nation became a huge economic power because of the 1956 Highway Act. This is fact and reality. The US economy increased in leaps and bounds during the 1950s and on. This is reality. GOVERNMENT FUNDING and the socialist... I mean republican administration of Dwight Eisenhower, who was also a big war hero. Ike had a word or two for neo-conservative republicans of today, and most of it is not nice. He would be crawling in his grave seeing as to how delusional republicans are today.



He was not a conservative. He was one of the last rational republicans. Oh and Reagan betrayed EVERYTHING that Eisenhower stood for. Eisenhower was far from perfect, but he made many great points... I rank Teddy Roosevelt higher. But still watch this speech carefully.

[frankfrank]

^ I still consider Eisenhower as the best President in my lifetime, that I actually remember anything at all about. (In no way, at all, do I remember Truman.)

[GiancarloC]

I can totally understand that. Eisenhower I'm sure would also have something to say about elevating one man to hero status as republicans have done with Ronald Reagan. The right wingers always need their cult-like leader, even at the expense of bringing this country down.

[Kulindahr]

You cannot blame mass shootings on the non-institutionalization of schizophrenics.

While it is true that many mass shooters are schizophrenic, the relative proportion of schizophrenics to the rest of society has not changed in thousands of years. In the past, they were not institutionalized, and yet they did not kill people en masse.

What has changed is that now they have easy access to guns - and the NRA has encouraged them to use guns as a solution to life's problems.

It's harder for people to get firearms now than ever in US history. They used to be in the Sears catalog, there were no background checks, no license was required to sell them....

Your lies about history and the NRA have far less substance than blaming Reagan.

[CTF]

^ I give up.

American innocents are publicly murdered in cold blood, and the NRA has (within weeks) convinced half of the American populace that ANY gun "restrictions" is tantamount to take away everyone's guns.

It's a shame that half of the American Populace can't get as defensive while Corporate America takes our Republic away.

But that doesn't sell ad space or Cable News Programming, or National Rifle Association Memberships does it?

[GiancarloC]

I think we should make it even more restrictive for people to own guns. It's not restrictive enough. It's still far to easy to get guns in states like Nevada for example. Tighten up the rules and make it comparable to other western countries.

[Kulindahr]

Yet the problem continues in how inaccessible mental health faculties are. The reason deinstitutionalization started was because medications were seen more effective and cheaper than long-term hospitalization with mixed results. The problem remains, cost of therapy and medication is still high as many people with long-term mental disorders are low income and therefore, cannot afford proper treatment.

Deinstitutionalization came along quite a while after the "miracle pill" craze where psychiatrists decided chemically controlling people was more lucrative. It was, though, used as an argument in favor of dumping people on the streets, even though the evidence was already piling up against the pill pushers' agenda.

And by now we've learned that medication without regular physician contact and a community support system isn't any cheaper than the older way.

No, Benvolio is surprisingly right on this. Rosemary Kennedy had a lobotomy at the request of her family which lead to the founding of the Special Olympics due to the condition it left her in after the treatment. JFK did not anyone to end up like his sister and so he started the ball rolling on gutting mental hospitals.

That's totally contrary to the history of the legislation he got through. The Community Mental Health Act didn't shut down hospitals, it actually increased the number of mental health inpatient facilities. A main concept was to get people back near their homes and families instead of having them warehoused in institutions more focused on keeping patients in line than in helping them. Beyond that, the program aimed to transition people back into their communities as possible.

It wasn't until Reagan came along and (as documented above) decided that if some patients could be sent home, they could all just be sent -- even if they had no homes to go to.

[Kulindahr]

You're uninformed. Deinstitutionalisation of the mentally ill started well before the Reagan Administration. Interest and reliance on drugs, poor conditions with the hospitals, and the desire to spend less on care started decades earlier and escalated in the 60's an 70's.

One of the big problems with the treatment of mental illness has been increased abuse of drugs and alcohol which took over much of the funding from mental illness and pretty much replaced the focus away from mental illness.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deinstitutionalisation

Gotta love how you cite an article that disagrees with about every word you said.

[Kulindahr]

No ... it was not mainly under Reagan. The trend to close mental hospitals goes back to the 1920's.

Sorry, but according to studies by the national advocacy for the mentally ill groups, the number of hospitals and available beds both increased from the start of the twentieth century up through 1955, when a peak was reached.

Now, thanks most recently to the last GOP effort in the White House, the US has fewer hospital beds available for mental health than at any time since before the Civil War.

[Kulindahr]

People are quite capable of taking care of themselves and each other.

Don't you claim to be a Christian? If so, you can't possibly be saying that with a straight face.

Of course, you can't possibly live in the real world and say that with a straight face, either.

SOME people are capable as you say; MOST people don't give a crap; and today's so-called conservatives are far more interested in making sure the wealthy get all the help government can provide and leaving none for anyone else.

[Kulindahr]

Government has only three legitimate functions:
1. provide a standing army to protect us from without
2. provide a police force to protect us from each other
and
3. provide a system of courts so that we may seek redress with each other.

Well, the Founding Fathers would disagree with you on number 2, at least: while they lived, there was no such thing in the US as a "police force" -- that didn't start until 1835.

[andysayshi]

It's harder for people to get firearms now than ever in US history. They used to be in the Sears catalog, there were no background checks, no license was required to sell them....

Did Sears ever sell an AR-15 rifle or any similar adaptation?

Not that it really matters - just order a Sig Sauer Tactical Rifle this afternoon while you're at Walmart grabbing those new plastic deck chairs you're after! You'll sleep easier on the patio with a rifle on hand that is "Designed for use in law enforcement and military operations".

Your lies about history and the NRA have far less substance than blaming Reagan.

I'll refer you to my earlier post in this thread to ingest EXACTLY why the NRA thinks you should own a gun.

[Kulindahr]

You're not as well-informed as you bragged that you were. The first turnpikes were built by corporations. I learned this in 5th or 6th grade.

You're playing with a logical fallacy warned against by none other than our first Republican president, Abraham Lincoln, namely using two meanings for the same word in an argument without informing your listeners.

"Turnpike" in the late eighteenth century merely meant a privately built road that was accessed by the payment of a toll -- today we call them toll roads. The word today suggests freeways with interchanges, something entirely different.

Until the time of the Interstate Highway System, roads were built and maintained by local and state governments, with some designated as "US Highways", which brought nothing more than signs so designating them -- no federal funds came with them, no level of quality was assured. Limited access highways were still rare at the time Eisenhower got the Interstate system going with its not merely limited but restricted-access highways -- what are called freeways because (theoretically) once on one one's way is free to travel swiftly.

You're also playing a two-meaning game with the term "highway". Yes, there were "highways" back in the colonies, but they were called that for the reason monarchs in Europe had their "king's highways": they were merely roadbeds raised high enough to drain so that seasonal storms didn't turn them into muddy bogs untraversable for half the year. Today's highway may still be raised, but there the resemblance ends.

[CTF]

^ My Grandpa always admonished me to never publicly argue with an idiot; "Those witnessing the debate wouldn't be able to tell the difference."

[Kulindahr]

Did Sears ever sell an AR-15 rifle or any similar adaptation?
.

Sears has sold semi-automatic rifles for a long time.

[tigerfan482]

It's harder for people to get firearms now than ever in US history. They used to be in the Sears catalog, there were no background checks, no license was required to sell them....

Your lies about history and the NRA have far less substance than blaming Reagan.

There is a difference between being harder to get and taking longer to get. It is no harder today to get a firearm than it was when you could get them from Sears. It just takes longer since you have to wait for the pathetic excuse of a background check they do. As long as you don't have a criminal record, your gun will be your's in 7 days, no further questions asked.

[HenryReardon]

You're playing with a logical fallacy warned against by none other than our first Republican president, Abraham Lincoln, namely using two meanings for the same word in an argument without informing your listeners.

"Turnpike" in the late eighteenth century merely meant a privately built road that was accessed by the payment of a toll -- today we call them toll roads. The word today suggests freeways with interchanges, something entirely different.

Until the time of the Interstate Highway System, roads were built and maintained by local and state governments, with some designated as "US Highways", which brought nothing more than signs so designating them -- no federal funds came with them, no level of quality was assured. Limited access highways were still rare at the time Eisenhower got the Interstate system going with its not merely limited but restricted-access highways -- what are called freeways because (theoretically) once on one one's way is free to travel swiftly.

You're also playing a two-meaning game with the term "highway". Yes, there were "highways" back in the colonies, but they were called that for the reason monarchs in Europe had their "king's highways": they were merely roadbeds raised high enough to drain so that seasonal storms didn't turn them into muddy bogs untraversable for half the year. Today's highway may still be raised, but there the resemblance ends.

There's a major flaw in your post. I didn't use the word highway. The fact remains that the first turnpikes were built by corporations.

[GiancarloC]

There's a major flaw in your post. I didn't use the word highway. The fact remains that the first turnpikes were built by corporations.

Nobody cares.

The real economic revolution in this country was driven by government spending, as were most of the railroads. But the first major freeway system was built by the government in the Highway Act of 1956. This led to massive amounts of economic growth. The truth hurts. I don't really care about minor examples of a corporation building a turn-pike. I care about the bigger picture!

[GiancarloC]

[Quoted Post: Removed]

No. I'm not being ignorant. I posted the clear facts along with substantial evidence. The 1956 Interstate Act was vital for this country's economy. This is pure and plain fact. The writing is on the wall. Keep subscribing to the right wing falsehoods though.

[xbuzzerx]

There is a difference between being harder to get and taking longer to get. It is no harder today to get a firearm than it was when you could get them from Sears. It just takes longer since you have to wait for the pathetic excuse of a background check they do. As long as you don't have a criminal record, your gun will be your's in 7 days, no further questions asked.

Yup, exactly. Although this is where the NRA line will overexaggerate the degree to which a lot of people are out there in imminent physical danger and need the gun immediately, so holdups like this are unacceptable.

[maxpowr9]

Sears has sold semi-automatic rifles for a long time.

Random fact: Ernest Hemingway killed himself with a Boss shotgun purchased at Abercrombie & Fitch.

[andysayshi]

Hopefully purchased from a semi-nude underwear model.

[tigerfan482]

Random fact: Ernest Hemingway killed himself with a Boss shotgun purchased at Abercrombie & Fitch.

I bet he paid four times as much as other places were selling it for as well.

[Kulindahr]

There is a difference between being harder to get and taking longer to get. It is no harder today to get a firearm than it was when you could get them from Sears. It just takes longer since you have to wait for the pathetic excuse of a background check they do. As long as you don't have a criminal record, your gun will be your's in 7 days, no further questions asked.

If it takes longer, it's harder. If there are fewer sources, it's harder.

Ordering a gun from a catalog from the comfort of your home is easier than having to find a store that sells them, go down and wait for a sales person to unlock the cabinet so you can look at them, fill out extensive paperwork once you pick one, pay a fee to get your paperwork handled, then wait until the "instant" system does its thing.

[xbuzzerx]

If it takes longer, it's harder. If there are fewer sources, it's harder.

Ordering a gun from a catalog from the comfort of your home is easier than having to find a store that sells them, go down and wait for a sales person to unlock the cabinet so you can look at them, fill out extensive paperwork once you pick one, pay a fee to get your paperwork handled, then wait until the "instant" system does its thing.

- - - Updated - - -



The fact remains that by your word use fallacy, you are LYING.

And that would still be far less hassle than getting married or getting divorced, or handling inheritance issues, or getting a driver's license.

[Kulindahr]

There's a major flaw in your post. I didn't use the word highway. The fact remains that the first turnpikes were built by corporations.

The fact remains that by your word use fallacy, you are LYING.

When you say "turnpike", this is the sort of image that comes to mind:




But when you say the first ones were built by corporations, this is what you're referring to:




BTW, dragging back toward the topic, we can thank Reagan for getting our modern interstate turnpike system completed at long last.


But since the only association the mentally ill who shoot people have with highways is to get from the place where they got guns to the place where they shoot them, lets turn back to the issue of dumping mentally ill people on the street and the high correlation with the increase in the number of mass shootings.

[bike10]

Every year the when the far concervatives meet in March they hold a seance to raise Ronnie from the dead.