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  1. #101

    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisrobin View Post
    Do not despair. Rubio could become the next spokesman for:

    http://www.polandspring.com/#/home
    Yeah...what was that all about? Rubio gave a really bad rebuttal "speech". Nervous and unprepared. No way this guy can be groomed to be a "leader".

  2. #102
    stop the bullshit rareboy's Avatar
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    Re: State of the Union

    Hey Chance....


    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    His speech was a total disaster... if he is the savior of the republican party... I kinda feel pity for them. He's a mess. And he should remember... always carry a bottle of water around. When one is spewing out steaming bullshit your throat could get dry. Marco Rubio... a rich white guy who convinces nobody. Yea, he won't be a Millard Fillmore... probably more like Bob Dole instead of McCain or Romney. He's dry and boring... rather would watch paint dry.

    Where's the hate bruh?

    Weird that you can read so much into factual statements and analysis.

    A. the speech was total disaster.

    B. if he was thought to be the saviour, you have to pity the fool. He presented like a hot mess.

    C. he should always carry a bottle of water, or better yet, have a glass and a carafe handy...because talking points that seem to ignore the entire last five years would parch any throat.

    D. if he thinks that he is going to win the non-white vote by being able to speak Spanish....he isn't giving much credit to the potential latino voters out there who are listening for ideas and not the same old rubbish and alienating ideas fed to them in a different language.

    E. He doesn't even project a personality as strong as Dole, McCain or Romney

    F. So yeah...more boring than watching paint drying.

    I don't see the hate. Or loathing. Just a pretty good description of what everyone saw the other night.

  3. #103
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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Teachers retiring early with full salary is a normal thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyBob View Post
    Wrong.

    Do you have links to back up your claim?
    Seriously. Where is this parallel reality the Libertarians and Republicans live in where teachers are overpaid, have too good benefits and get to retire earlier than everyone else and live well?

    That's not the reality I live in.

  4. #104
    Banned chance1's Avatar
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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    Hey Chance....


    Where's the hate bruh?

    Weird that you can read so much into factual statements and analysis.

    A. the speech was total disaster.

    B. if he was thought to be the saviour, you have to pity the fool. He presented like a hot mess.

    C. he should always carry a bottle of water, or better yet, have a glass and a carafe handy...because talking points that seem to ignore the entire last five years would parch any throat.

    D. if he thinks that he is going to win the non-white vote by being able to speak Spanish....he isn't giving much credit to the potential latino voters out there who are listening for ideas and not the same old rubbish and alienating ideas fed to them in a different language.

    E. He doesn't even project a personality as strong as Dole, McCain or Romney

    F. So yeah...more boring than watching paint drying.

    I don't see the hate. Or loathing. Just a pretty good description of what everyone saw the other night.
    sure thing

    it's a laugh riot

    def. designed as a humor thing - facetious perhaps

    oh that's right - no humor involved

    and the mods keep deleting stuff randomly

    life on JUB

    it's like MSNBC - only one POV required

    bandwagon and such

  5. #105
    JUB Addict maxpowr9's Avatar
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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    Most of the property owners I know don't even make $20K/year! Your mom could only be paying that if she is quite wealthy, and owns much valuable property.

    You have told us that you and your brother were educated in private schools, due to your family's disdain for public school teachers.

    I suspect your "libertarian streak" comes from the fact that you have been raised in a wealthy household which does not care to give back to society anything reflective of the extent to which your family has benefited.

    Please excuse me while I vomit.
    Hun, take a look at what teachers make in MA by town...

    2010-11 Teacher Salaries Report

    Mind you the top two towns are Dover and Sherborn. The only reason you can find a home in either town below $750k, is due to state-mandated low-income housing in each town.

    This is coupled with the expenditures per student which is basically the "child tax" in each town...

    2010-11 Per Pupil Expenditures Report

  6. #106
    JUB Addict T-Rexx's Avatar
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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by maxpowr9 View Post
    Hun, take a look at what teachers make in MA by town...

    2010-11 Teacher Salaries Report

    Mind you the top two towns are Dover and Sherborn. The only reason you can find a home in either town below $750k, is due to state-mandated low-income housing in each town.

    This is coupled with the expenditures per student which is basically the "child tax" in each town...

    2010-11 Per Pupil Expenditures Report

    According to your data, the average teacher salary in Dover in 2011 was $92,765. But, the average income there in 2005 was $361,394. Teachers there are making 25% of the average income for their community.

    The average teacher in Sherborn in 2011 made $92,381. The median (not average) income for males in Sherborn in 2007 was $88,677. Teachers are making close to the median income for the community.

    And please note that teachers in Florida, MA are making only $37,580.

    I get that Massachusetts is an expensive place to live. I don't get why you think teachers should be paid so much less than everyone else.


    http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/re...me_by_zipcode/

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherborn,_Massachusetts
    Last edited by T-Rexx; February 17th, 2013 at 06:02 PM.

  7. #107
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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    According to your data, the average teacher salary in Dover in 2011 was $92,765. But, the average income there in 2005 was $361,394. Teachers there are making 25% of the average income for their community.

    The average teacher in Sherborn in 2011 made $92,381. The median (not average) income for males in Sherborn in 2007 was $88,677. Teachers are making close to the median income for the community.

    I get that Massachusetts is an expensive place to live. I don't get why you think teachers should be paid so much less than everyone else.


    http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/re...me_by_zipcode/

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherborn,_Massachusetts
    Exactly. You're only going to find very very well paid teachers in very very wealthy areas. Presenting that as a case in point about how the field of teaching across the board needs benefit cuts and lower salaries is ridiculous. I don't even know how public schoolteachers in California survive unless they're married to someone with, as people would say, "a real job." That's how little teaching gets paid generally.

  8. #108
    JUB Addict maxpowr9's Avatar
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    Re: State of the Union

    I never said that teachers should be paid less. I stressed in my first "rant" that teacher's pay should be tied to merit and not seniority. Fuck, even at my college, I helped found the coalition that abolished a tenured status for professors and instead implemented a fellowship that mandated a professor produces acknowledged research or secures grant money, they would be given a 5-year tenured status.
    This goes back to my horrible real estate finance professor that was tenured and talked about his fucking sailboat for the first three classes and I dropped the class because he was not teaching and clearly showing up for a paycheck.

    I heard from some of my local friends that attended public school that a teacher, clearly "over-the-hill", took a 3-month break to eat up her vacation time before she retired.

    I personally feel teaching is a vocation and not a job, and those called to be pedagogues should be rewarded.

  9. #109
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by maxpowr9 View Post
    I never said that teachers should be paid less. I stressed in my first "rant" that teacher's pay should be tied to merit and not seniority. Fuck, even at my college, I helped found the coalition that abolished a tenured status for professors and instead implemented a fellowship that mandated a professor produces acknowledged research or secures grant money, they would be given a 5-year tenured status.
    This goes back to my horrible real estate finance professor that was tenured and talked about his fucking sailboat for the first three classes and I dropped the class because he was not teaching and clearly showing up for a paycheck.

    I heard from some of my local friends that attended public school that a teacher, clearly "over-the-hill", took a 3-month break to eat up her vacation time before she retired.

    I personally feel teaching is a vocation and not a job, and those called to be pedagogues should be rewarded.
    I can tell you flat out that when tenure was massively cut in the UC system in California, despite all the arguments about how it will encourage better teachers and less sloth from people who have job security, the end result of it only was that many, many more professors regardless of merit lost all job security and operate permanently on a term by term lecturer contract, which also earns far less money than a tenured position, and they're essentially hire-a-profs who can be cut or replaced at any time. It also means we lost a lot of good professors who didn't want to leave the UC system but were actually offered decent packages either in private universities or out of state universities as opposed to the prospect of a likely lifetime of lower paid lecturer contracts from semester to semester.

    I would feel completely safe in saying that hacking the tenure system in CA was entirely about lowering the wages paid to professors overall, and COST US the good professors, rather than anything materializing in the form of "now we can get rid of the bad profs who've just been there for ages with job security, and get really good ones." It was just a way to cut the education budget, made necessary under Arnold's governorship.

  10. #110
    JUB Addict T-Rexx's Avatar
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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    I would feel completely safe in saying that hacking the tenure system in CA was entirely about lowering the wages paid to professors overall, and COST US the good professors, rather than anything materializing in the form of "now we can get rid of the bad profs who've just been there for ages with job security, and get really good ones." It was just a way to cut the education budget, made necessary under Arnold's governorship.
    I agree. But, I would extend this thinking to ALL workers, not just teachers.

    The sad fact of the last 40 years in America is that the wages of average workers have not even come close to keeping up with the value of the goods they produce. The federal minimum wage today is $7.25. If the federal minimum wage since 1968 had kept up with productivity, it would today be $21.72/hr. Instead, almost all of that value has gone to the top 1% of wage earners.

    We keep rewarding people for being rich. How about we start rewarding people for working? Can you imagine what that would do for the economy? We like to believe in America that our economy works better when poor people are kept poor. Precisely the opposite is true.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_2680639.html
    Last edited by T-Rexx; February 17th, 2013 at 07:06 PM.

  11. #111
    Sex God tigerfan482's Avatar
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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    I can tell you flat out that when tenure was massively cut in the UC system in California, despite all the arguments about how it will encourage better teachers and less sloth from people who have job security, the end result of it only was that many, many more professors regardless of merit lost all job security and operate permanently on a term by term lecturer contract, which also earns far less money than a tenured position, and they're essentially hire-a-profs who can be cut or replaced at any time. It also means we lost a lot of good professors who didn't want to leave the UC system but were actually offered decent packages either in private universities or out of state universities as opposed to the prospect of a likely lifetime of lower paid lecturer contracts from semester to semester.

    I would feel completely safe in saying that hacking the tenure system in CA was entirely about lowering the wages paid to professors overall, and COST US the good professors, rather than anything materializing in the form of "now we can get rid of the bad profs who've just been there for ages with job security, and get really good ones." It was just a way to cut the education budget, made necessary under Arnold's governorship.
    Agreed. You either have professors that leave for private industry or those that focus solely on grant money and research and ultimately suck at being professors.

    This whole private versus public thing wasn't an issue before the recession when public workers routinely got paid less (both in salary and benefits) than their private sector counterparts. The sole thing they had going for them was the job security. Now when the private sector started sliding downhill, all of a sudden the public sector is now overpaid and should lose the benefit they assumed when they took the lower paying public sector job. How about instead of trying to fight to bring the public sector down, the people in the private sector start fighting to bring themselves (back) up?

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    I agree. But, I would extend this thinking to ALL workers, not just teachers.

    The sad fact of the last 40 years in America is that the wages of average workers have not even come close to keeping up with the value of the goods they produce. The federal minimum wage today is $7.25. If the federal minimum wage since 1968 had kept up with productivity, it would today be $21.72/hr. Instead, almost all of that value has gone to the top 1% of wage earners.

    We keep rewarding people for being rich. How about we start rewarding people for working? Can you imagine what that would do for the economy? We like to believe in America that our economy works better when poor people are kept poor. Precisely the opposite is true.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_2680639.html
    It is the job of the rich to ensure both that they stay rich as well as keep the poorer masses believing that keeping them rich is part of the American Dream. There are a good number of stupid people in this country that would rather vote to keep their neighborhood billionaire rich while voting against raising the minimum wage that the poorest of us makes.

  12. #112
    JUB Addict maxpowr9's Avatar
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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    I agree. But, I would extend this thinking to ALL workers, not just teachers.

    The sad fact of the last 40 years in America is that the wages of average workers have not even come close to keeping up with the value of the goods they produce. The federal minimum wage today is $7.25. If the federal minimum wage since 1968 had kept up with productivity, it would today be $21.72/hr. Instead, almost all of that value has gone to the top 1% of wage earners.

    We keep rewarding people for being rich. How about we start rewarding people for working? Can you imagine what that would do for the economy? We like to believe in America that our economy works better when poor people are kept poor. Precisely the opposite is true.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_2680639.html
    Wrong again!

    The minimum wage conversation has already been discussed here and if it kept up with inflation, it would be around $11.75. Again, it is using the benchmark of productivity instead of inflation. This is what happens when liberals trust their rags which distort statistics. No [trusted] economic statistics are based on productivity. They are always benchmarked to inflation. Don't even try to say you deserve a raise based on how good you are at your job because your boss will just laugh at you. If you bring up COLA, they are more susceptible of giving you a wage increase.

  13. #113
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by maxpowr9 View Post
    Wrong again!

    The minimum wage conversation has already been discussed here and if it kept up with inflation, it would be around $11.75. Again, it is using the benchmark of productivity instead of inflation. This is what happens when liberals trust their rags which distort statistics. No [trusted] economic statistics are based on productivity. They are always benchmarked to inflation. Don't even try to say you deserve a raise based on how good you are at your job because your boss will just laugh at you. If you bring up COLA, they are more susceptible of giving you a wage increase.
    $11.75 would still be substantially higher than even what Obama proposed (which people almost nationwide are already pooh-poohing as "too high" and "never going to happen") and would put us on par with Canada.

    Even nitpicking over the number, it still should be much higher than where it is (11.75 is more than 150% of where minimum wage is today), and the claim about how wealth and increase in income has been completely monopolized by the top minority of households since 1970 is completely valid, and is mentioned openly in the CIA World Factbook on the U.S. economic structure.
    Last edited by xbuzzerx; February 17th, 2013 at 08:23 PM.

  14. #114
    JUB Addict T-Rexx's Avatar
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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by maxpowr9 View Post
    Wrong again!

    The minimum wage conversation has already been discussed here and if it kept up with inflation, it would be around $11.75. Again, it is using the benchmark of productivity instead of inflation. This is what happens when liberals trust their rags which distort statistics. No [trusted] economic statistics are based on productivity. They are always benchmarked to inflation.
    No. You didn't read the post.

    The discussion is about keeping up with productivity, not inflation. Your opinion that productivity can't be measured is not shared by many.

    Quote Originally Posted by maxpowr9 View Post
    Don't even try to say you deserve a raise based on how good you are at your job because your boss will just laugh at you. If you bring up COLA, they are more susceptible of giving you a wage increase.
    And I thought you were advocating paying teachers based on how good they are!
    Last edited by T-Rexx; February 17th, 2013 at 08:38 PM.

  15. #115
    JUB Addict maxpowr9's Avatar
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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    No. You didn't read the post.

    The discussion is about keeping up with productivity, not inflation. Your opinion that productivity can't be measured is not shared by many.



    And I thought you were advocating paying teachers based on how good they are!
    You are delusional and are twisting my words. I didn't say productivity can't be measured. In fact it is quite easily measured. The Solow model is a neoclassical economics function for productivity and extremely laughable and has been debunked several times over. So you are saying you are a neoclassical economist like GWB?

    Fuck I could go back to the 40s and bring up the arcane Cobb-Douglass function.

    Again, when you understand economics, don't try to add to the discussion without embarrassing yourself.
    Last edited by maxpowr9; February 17th, 2013 at 08:54 PM.

  16. #116
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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by maxpowr9 View Post
    You are delusional and are twisting my words. I didn't say productivity can't be measured. In fact it is quite easily measured. The Solow model is a neoclassical economics function for productivity and extremely laughable and has been debunked several times over. So you are saying you are a neoclassical economist like GWB?

    Fuck I could go back to the 40s and bring up the arcane Cobb-Douglass function.

    Again, when you understand economics, don't try to add to the discussion without embarrassing yourself.
    Of course the pissing contest aspect is off the point that minimum wage IS too low, that wealth has been rerouted to a small minority at the top of the economy for 40 years, and that devising ways to cut the benefits of either private or public workers right now out of some belief that some portion of them "may not merit it" despite decades of service isn't a great paradigm for changing any of that.

  17. #117
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    Re: State of the Union

    Maxpowr9, you are grossly misrepresenting an entire profession of educators based on your own personal experiences. You have no idea the challenges and fights teachers face every day across this country. In a public education system, teachers teach students from all backgrounds of life. Unlike private or charter schools, which are magnets to high socio-economic student households, public schools must take all students, particularly students who are English Language Learners (ELL), and Special Education. Most teachers are wonderful figures of inspiration and learning. I look back at my schooling and smile at the selfless individuals who believed in me to pursue my dreams.

    Teachers stand between the budget cutters and ignoramuses who devalue what a student's education means to the individual child. Often times, it is a teacher who gives back hundreds to thousands of dollars of their own income to their classroom and students every year. Have you been back to a high school? You would notice half the faculty also coaches and serves as an advisor to a sport or extra curricular activity that pays only in a small stipend for the many hours extra they put into it beyond their job. All, so that students can find extra stimulation and learning in a sport, debate team, science bowl, or leadership on the student council.

    A teacher is only paid for the work day they are in the classroom with students. Their main contract does not cover the hours they spend at home grading papers and lesson planning at night.

    So no, teachers are not paid enough for being expected to have multiple college degrees, continuing education to renew their certification in the states they teach in, and the many hours they put in beyond their scheduled work day. The pay scale you pointed out in a highly affluent state shows an income level below the cost of living associated with those districts. Nevertheless, I think it's damn fair what they're being paid even if those areas had a low cost-of-living. After all, we should we paying highly to attract educated professionals to go back into the classroom with their degrees to teach the future generations of this country.
    #439th oldest member on JUB.

  18. #118
    JUB Addict T-Rexx's Avatar
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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    The sad fact of the last 40 years in America is that the wages of average workers have not even come close to keeping up with the value of the goods they produce. The federal minimum wage today is $7.25. If the federal minimum wage since 1968 had kept up with productivity, it would today be $21.72/hr. Instead, almost all of that value has gone to the top 1% of wage earners.
    .
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_2680639.html

    Quote Originally Posted by maxpowr9 View Post
    Wrong again!

    The minimum wage conversation has already been discussed here and if it kept up with inflation, it would be around $11.75. Again, it is using the benchmark of productivity instead of inflation This is what happens when liberals trust their rags which distort statistics. No [trusted] economic statistics are based on productivity. They are always benchmarked to inflation.
    The whole point of the study is to compare worker income to productivity, not inflation.

    I'm not clear on why you object to analyzing productivity data. Comparing income to inflation tells you nothing about how the benefits of increased productivity are being distributed.

    Why do you insist that income may only be compared to inflation and not productivity?


    Quote Originally Posted by maxpowr9 View Post
    This is what happens when liberals trust their rags which distort statistics.
    Actually, the study was done by the Center for Economic and Policy Research, not some "liberal rag."

    It would be far more helpful for you to tell us why you object to the conclusions of these economists, rather than tell us that they're not allowed to study what they did. What was it that they "distorted" in pursuit of their awful "liberal" agenda?


    Quote Originally Posted by maxpowr9 View Post
    Don't even try to say you deserve a raise based on how good you are at your job because your boss will just laugh at you. If you bring up COLA, they are more susceptible of giving you a wage increase.
    I agree entirely. This is a point I have been making throughout this thread.

    But if you believe that pay cannot reasonably be based on merit, why do you say:

    Quote Originally Posted by maxpowr9 View Post
    @Apollo, the problem with the education system is the unions which rewards seniority [see: full-salary pensions after 20-years of teaching] instead of merit. It's why my parents wouldn't let my brother or me set foot in a public school. You would have to seriously overhaul the unions which are strangling the school system to get a better bang for your buck.
    This sounds to me that you are advocating paying public school teachers on the basis of merit. But you just said above that that is not a reasonable thing to try to do. What is your position?


    Quote Originally Posted by maxpowr9 View Post
    You are delusional and are twisting my words. I didn't say productivity can't be measured.
    Quote Originally Posted by maxpowr9 View Post
    No [trusted] economic statistics are based on productivity.
    Productivity itself is an economic "statistic." If you say that "no trusted economic statistic can be based on productivity," I have to believe you do not accept the productivity statistics, either. I assume that's why you object so strenuously to people trying to study where the wealth being generated by increased productivity is going - you don't trust the productivity statistics.

    And yet, you then say:

    Quote Originally Posted by maxpowr9 View Post
    I didn't say productivity can't be measured. In fact it is quite easily measured.
    Again, I agree. It is easily estimated.

    So why do you say "no trusted economic statistic can be based on productivity?" If productivity is "easily measured," why can no trusted economic statistic be based upon it? And, again, why do you object to the economists at CEPR doing exactly that?


    Quote Originally Posted by maxpowr9 View Post
    Again, when you understand economics, don't try to add to the discussion without embarrassing yourself.
    Indeed!
    Last edited by T-Rexx; February 17th, 2013 at 11:26 PM.

  19. #119

    Re: State of the Union

    SOTU speech has been forgotten.

  20. #120
    stop the bullshit rareboy's Avatar
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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by chance1 View Post
    sure thing

    it's a laugh riot

    def. designed as a humor thing - facetious perhaps

    oh that's right - no humor involved

    and the mods keep deleting stuff randomly

    life on JUB

    it's like MSNBC - only one POV required

    bandwagon and such

    Once again, reading comprehension skills are important. The statement was that laughing at someone isn't the same as loathing.

    And laughing at someone isn't the same thing as humour. So you see, it is possible to laugh at Rubio's unintentionally disastrous performance and not loathe him at all.


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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    Once again, reading comprehension skills are important. The statement was that laughing at someone isn't the same as loathing.

    And laughing at someone isn't the same thing as humour. So you see, it is possible to laugh at Rubio's unintentionally disastrous performance and not loathe him at all.

    ]
    Yep reading comprehension is grand

    And if u read
    U have a chance (love that) to comprehend

    And if u read GC's original post that provoked my response

    And if u read GC in general

    U Would comprehend

    No funny stuff

    Keep jumping in and showcasing that either or both of these things you're missing

    This is too easy

    Another case of ..... U know

  22. #122
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    Re: State of the Union

    I not only read it, I parsed it for you and pointed out that your presumption of loathing is ridiculous and that you're confusing 'laughing at' with humour. You seem to be unwilling or incapable of comprehending the difference and are only jumping down GC's throat because of other posts that have nothing to do with the topic of Rubio's unintentionally hilarious antics this past week.

    You may note that I am also responding using a device called 'sentences'.

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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    I not only read it, I parsed it for you and pointed out that your presumption of loathing is ridiculous and that you're confusing 'laughing at' with humour. You seem to be unwilling or incapable of comprehending the difference and are only jumping down GC's throat because of other posts that have nothing to do with the topic of Rubio's unintentionally hilarious antics this past week.

    You may note that I am also responding using a device called 'sentences'.
    I think u overrate style

    And eschew substance

    How u like dem apples ? *



    * name the character and the movie

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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    I've been begging people to read my posts more clearly... and I haven't seen that from certain right wingers. My criticism of Rubio was directed at his inability to convey his thoughts well and his serious lack of substance. Rubio is hollow and farcical. His entire speech was a rambling mess and it represented the ineptness of the GOP in the last 4 or 5 years. Watching it go down like the Hindenburg is ironic, as it represents the GOP's own descent into chaos and insanity.

    Keep misstating what I said. I know criticism of one of the "future saviors" of the GOP is hard to take... considering that "future savior" looks more like a future disaster in the making, of whom has even less substance than Mitt Romney or John McCain.
    I think you nailed it. Thanks.
    BEWARE! Harassing the Indian may result in sudden and severe hair loss.

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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    I've been begging people to read my posts more clearly... and I haven't seen that from certain right wingers. My criticism of Rubio was directed at his inability to convey his thoughts well and his serious lack of substance. Rubio is hollow and farcical. His entire speech was a rambling mess and it represented the ineptness of the GOP in the last 4 or 5 years. Watching it go down like the Hindenburg is ironic, as it represents the GOP's own descent into chaos and insanity.

    Keep misstating what I said. I know criticism of one of the "future saviors" of the GOP is hard to take... considering that "future savior" looks more like a future disaster in the making, of whom has even less substance than Mitt Romney or John McCain.
    But, but he is Latino and he'll save the Republicans by getting them the Latino vote because Latinos are just a bunch of dumb animals who vote for the one who speaks Spanish the best and has the darkest skin.

    The Republicans just don't get it and never will. While a good amount of the electorate are a bunch of idiots who will fall for these tactics and vote for appearance rather than substance, they already vote Republican and shouldn't be the ones they try to target. Then again, would we expect them to realize this?

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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    But, but he is Latino and he'll save the Republicans by getting them the Latino vote because Latinos are just a bunch of dumb animals who vote for the one who speaks Spanish the best and has the darkest skin.
    Is that why Romney painted himself brown when he went to speak to Latino voters?

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    Re: State of the Union

    ^ There's only one other man I know who has ever reached that same shade of Garfield.
    #439th oldest member on JUB.

  28. #128
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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Is that why Romney painted himself brown when he went to speak to Latino voters?

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    Yeah. They decided it would be better to try for the real thing this time around. Although they are still considering darkening Rubio a bit to hopefully have some cross-appeal to the African-American voting bloc.

  29. #129
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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    I've been begging people to read my posts more clearly... and I haven't seen that from certain right wingers. My criticism of Rubio was directed at his inability to convey his thoughts well and his serious lack of substance. Rubio is hollow and farcical. His entire speech was a rambling mess and it represented the ineptness of the GOP in the last 4 or 5 years. Watching it go down like the Hindenburg is ironic, as it represents the GOP's own descent into chaos and insanity.

    Keep misstating what I said. I know criticism of one of the "future saviors" of the GOP is hard to take... considering that "future savior" looks more like a future disaster in the making, of whom has even less substance than Mitt Romney or John McCain.
    John McCain used to be a decent politician. He believed in working with the other side to get laws passed. He pretty much lost his mind when he decided to run for president. All of a sudden he was afraid to be seen as a moderate republican which he used to never have a problem with and went complete darkside. Sad really, he probably would have been the only republican I would have ever voted for.

    That's the real problem with the republican party, none of their politicans seem to have real values or beliefs. They change their beliefs depending on how much money they want or how many votes they need to win an election. In some ways, so do democrats but not in such a completely obvious way.

    Mitt Romney, well Mitt Romney was silly putty. He was whatever his campaign team wanted him to be that week,
    Last edited by Apollo; February 18th, 2013 at 03:04 PM.

  30. #130
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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by Apollo View Post
    John McCain used to be a decent politician. He believed in working with the other side to get laws passed. He pretty much lost his mind when he decided to run for president. All of a sudden he was afraid to be seen as a moderate republican which he used to never have a problem with and went complete darkside. Sad really, he probably would have been the only republican I would have ever voted for.

    That's the real problem with the republican party, none of their politicans seem to have real values or beliefs. They change their beliefs depending on how much money they want or how many votes they need to win an election. In some ways, so do democrats but not in such a completely obvious way.

    Mitt Romney, well Mitt Romney was silly putty. He was whatever his campaign team wanted him to be that week,
    McCain was a basically decent Senator and in that capacity he was known to engage in both bipartisan efforts and frequently criticize the crazy extremities of his own party-- including Bush's torture policy.

    What his Presidential campaign showed, to me, moreso than flaws in his judgment (and there were assuredly some, such as the Palin pick) was that the GOP requirement of groupthink and lockstep is too powerful, that any chance of success in rising in the ranks of the GOP depends far too greatly on it, and that for someone to run as a candidate for today's GOP they need to embrace the mentality of "admitting a mistake is far worse than making the mistake", "compromise is weakness", "changing your mind regardless of new evidence is flip-flopping", and every other petulant and style-over-substance trait that explains the inability of the GOP in the present to come to the table as adults and participate in governance of the country.

    That's definitely what needs to change, far more than the GOP simply making "better picks" or whatever else for their candidates, since any candidate currently goes through this same uniformity process as they try to campaign under the massive litmus test requirements of "being a Republican" today will turn into exactly the same standardized GOP amalgam that McCain became during his campaign. There isn't room for anyone to do any better than McCain or Romney did. There's a line they are absolutely required to tow and it's one that resonates with dissonance with a majority of the American public today, because it's out of touch and it alienates moderates.
    Last edited by xbuzzerx; February 18th, 2013 at 03:19 PM.

  31. #131
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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    McCain was a basically decent Senator and in that capacity he was known to engage in both bipartisan efforts and frequently criticize the crazy extremities of his own party-- including Bush's torture policy.

    What his Presidential campaign showed, to me, moreso than flaws in his judgment (and there were assuredly some, such as the Palin pick) was that the GOP requirement of groupthink and lockstep is too powerful, that any chance of success in rising in the ranks of the GOP depends far too greatly on it, and that for someone to run as a candidate for today's GOP they need to embrace the mentality of "admitting a mistake is far worse than making the mistake", "compromise is weakness", "changing your mind regardless of new evidence is flip-flopping", and every other petulant and style-over-substance trait that explains the inability of the GOP in the present to come to the table as adults and participate in governance of the country.

    That's definitely what needs to change, far more than the GOP simply making "better picks" or whatever else for their candidates, since any candidate currently goes through this same uniformity process as they try to campaign under the massive litmus test requirements of "being a Republican" today will turn into exactly the same standardized GOP amalgam that McCain became during his campaign. There isn't room for anyone to do any better than McCain or Romney did. There's a line they are absolutely required to tow and it's one that resonates with dissonance with a majority of the American public today, because it's out of touch and it alienates moderates.
    I couldn't agree more. After he chose Palin as his running mate. I immediately thought it was a brilliant move to make up for his running to the far right cliff, but after she started talking...well I knew he had lost. So did Obama, you could almost see Obama putting his hands behind his head and riding Palin's stupid wave right into the White House. The more she talked, the more McCain lost.

  32. #132
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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    I am minded to say he had to just for the primaries, and probably disliked the task. When McCain reverted back to his moderate mode for the general election, many Republicans did not want to part with the old guard, and so stayed home when the rest of the country wanted fresh new ideas and leadership. Then the Tea Party sprung up and changed everything, making McCain a permanent right wing radical.
    I think it was more Palin who ruined McCain then his going back to the middle. The Tea Party was kind of inspired by Palin's dumb and radical politics. I am so happy Americans arent so stupid as to truly believe the Tea Party is doing the right thing. Call it...self preservation.

  33. #133
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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by White Eagle View Post
    I think you nailed it. Thanks.
    i don't think he's nailed anything in years

    and isn't it just bandwagon-esque that the SOTU thread has evolved into another lame-ass "republicans suck" jerk off (with no cum)

    it's the running narrative that finds it's way into every thread

    the parallel narrative is gay marriage into every thread - but at least that's taken a wee break

    so at least that's something of a + development

    as for the SOTU - i heard today that the sister of a chicago woman who attended the SOTU address was killed - more gun violence in the gun capital of the US - Chicago

    http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013...un-speech?lite
    Last edited by chance1; February 18th, 2013 at 04:40 PM.

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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    The real bandwagon was the the Romney/Ryan bandwagon we saw a few people here ride. Keep on with the generalities and strawman arguments. It has no basis in reality.
    the only true thing you've said since u arrived

    "a few people"

    so get over it - it's "a few people"

    thanks for admitting what the elephant in the room is here

    a handful of people who don't sniff obama's undies are "a few people"

    so try to deal ok ?

    cause a few people shouldn't rock your world now right ?

  35. #135

    Re: State of the Union

    Absolutely horrible. The verboten topic here and else is 'black-on-black' violence.

    Why? My metro area daily news includes the same story every morning.

    Why can't we stop this?

    Quote Originally Posted by chance1 View Post
    i don't think he's nailed anything in years

    and isn't it just bandwagon-esque that the SOTU thread has evolved into another lame-ass "republicans suck" jerk off (with no cum)

    it's the running narrative that finds it's way into every thread

    the parallel narrative is gay marriage into every thread - but at least that's taken a wee break

    so at least that's something of a + development

    as for the SOTU - i heard today that the sister of a chicago woman who attended the SOTU address was killed - more gun violence in the gun capital of the US - Chicago

    http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013...un-speech?lite

  36. #136
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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Absolutely horrible. The verboten topic here and else is 'black-on-black' violence.

    Why? My metro area daily news includes the same story every morning.

    Why can't we stop this?
    I'm so utterly and completely confused.

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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    I'm talking about those on this forum. I recall one person gushing over Paul Ryan when he was picked as VP... even though he ended up being a catastrophic failure and now has disappeared from the spotlight.



    Total bullshit again. People who follow Obama aren't ball lickers or underwear sniffers... that's a weak criticism and it's just pathetic how low some will go to take swipes at others.

    It just seems to me some are unwilling in discussing the topic at hand and must resort to the same old feeble strawman attacks.
    i KNOW u were talking about the forum - so was I

    it's a FEW people - that seems to drive u to distraction

    THAT'S THE POINT

    it's been real GC - time to me to extract myself from the hamster maze that is conversing with u

  38. #138
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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    The Tea Party Caucus will run the Republican Party into the ground as a "Do Nothing Congress" that led to huge victories for Democrats in the 1948 House election.
    If the Democrats play this right in the next few elections. They can hold that "Do Nothing Congress" over their heads for awhile. Congress has an approval rating int he single digits, and despite their best efforts. The economy is recovering under Obama's reign and without a lot of useful help from Congress, a republican dominated Congress. If the Dem's are willing to get a little dirty, they could easily destroy the Republican party in these next few years and elections. As long as the Repubs keep hating on the gays and middle class so openly, they are toast. I for one am pretty fucking excited for the idea.

  39. #139
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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by Apollo View Post
    If the Democrats play this right in the next few elections. They can hold that "Do Nothing Congress" over their heads for awhile. Congress has an approval rating int he single digits, and despite their best efforts. The economy is recovering under Obama's reign and without a lot of useful help from Congress, a republican dominated Congress. If the Dem's are willing to get a little dirty, they could easily destroy the Republican party in these next few years and elections. As long as the Repubs keep hating on the gays and middle class so openly, they are toast. I for one am pretty fucking excited for the idea.
    sounds great

  40. #140
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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    Correct, Democrats won handily in 1948 only because they actively campaigned against Republican stubbornness. This is elementary American history. I even reported on it in my 3rd grade presentation about Truman, years before I formed opinions about politics. Congressmen get paid to pass essential legislation for the country. As a 3rd grader, I understood at least that.
    This brings up an interesting point. I wonder which party removed the requirement for civics/US Government as a class in high school. I know at least in private school, both my brother and me at different schools were required to take US Government our junior year.

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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    I went to private school as well, but I had civics as a dedicated class only in middle school. History classes in my high school had civics woven throughout. In Israel, I learned about parliamentary systems. Most US civics classes only teach American government.
    I took APUSH so I had a good dose a civics but that doesn't relinquish the "civics" requirement. Of course now my private school offers AP Government which I feel I would have easily tested out of the college class requirement. I do agree that in middle school, we had a much more thorough civics training. Especially for "New England" politics, we have a very unique system [see: town meeting] which is what was instilled our little brains. How many pea-brained public school students would know that the word "idiot" is derived from the the Greek word "idiote" which means: one who does not partake in government aka a plebeian.

  42. #142

    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    I'm so utterly and completely confused.
    That's what I'm talking about.

  43. #143
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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    That's what I'm talking about.
    That's the problem with these generic threads with little direction. This thread should honestly just be locked instead of becoming a "rant" thread about esoteric topics.

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    Re: State of the Union

    OH MY GOD I CAN'T BELIEVE that YOU PEOPLE are SO CLUELESS about ESOTERICA!!!!

    JESUS what an indictment of your educations.
    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

  45. #145
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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    OH MY GOD I CAN'T BELIEVE that YOU PEOPLE are SO CLUELESS about ESOTERICA!!!!

    JESUS what an indictment of your educations.
    I don't pin you as erudite either.

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    Re: State of the Union

    Erudite? That's the Greek Goddess of love right? Yeah, not her.
    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

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    Re: State of the Union

    ^ u need a leash

  48. #148
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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by chance1 View Post
    ^ u need a leash
    ^Somebody likes pony play!

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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by maxpowr9 View Post
    I don't pin you as erudite either.
    This is just getting nasty.

    All I really see you do is use big words and talk a lot about your education and how it's better than other people's, but rarely making coherent points.

    If you feel your level of educational achievement is so high then apply it in a way that people will see it on their own and you won't have to be constantly convincing them it was purportedly so great.

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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by Apollo View Post
    I think it was more Palin who ruined McCain then his going back to the middle. The Tea Party was kind of inspired by Palin's dumb and radical politics. I am so happy Americans arent so stupid as to truly believe the Tea Party is doing the right thing. Call it...self preservation.
    This. This is the number one reason why I despise McCain. He ushered in Sarah Palin who in turn ushered in the whole Tea Party movement with her "you betcha" speeches which lacked any real substance or ideas and just served to fire up the average Joe making them think that government was out to get them and should be reduced down to nothing. You can see it in the comments of people regarding the sequester ("let it happen" and "government is too big and never does anything for me".)

    What these people don't realize is a large portion of our economy is based upon government spending, whether it be directly to government contractors, directly through employing millions of people (the vast majority of which are middle class) who spend their money just like anyone else locally, or indirectly through the suppliers and small businesses the contractors use to get what they need to fulfill their contracts. What's going to be bittersweet to see is all of these people start suffering once the government greatly reduces spending and starts furloughing their employees. The idea that the private sector will just pick up all of the slack in regards to spending and employment is laughable to the point it makes me want to cry.

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