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  1. #51
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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by CoolBlue71 View Post
    There's no such thing as unnecessary job. As for your claim about what "provides" a "benefit to society," take your attitude with you while going to work in a nursing home as you assist patients in getting around, in eating, and in some other areas of general care. Then come back here and tell us how worthless you are while generating either minimum wage or barely above that minimum wage.
    IMJ's take on this is repugnant and demonstrates that he must be an utterly, out of touch arriviste.

    This is the kind of thing you hear from vulgar people who had to buy their own china and silver.

    Many of the lowest paying jobs are the most essential services. And to think otherwise only demonstrates that you'd be the type of person who believes that slaves are a necessary nuisance.

    Disgusting.

  2. #52
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    Re: State of the Union

    Minimum wage in North Dakota is $7.25 http://www.dol.gov/whd/minwage/america.htm#NorthDakota

    Minimum wage just across the border is $10.25 in Manitoba, Canada http://www.gov.mb.ca/labour/standard...factsheet.html

    On top of that, Canada has national healthcare-- and an enormous amount of minimum wage jobs in the U.S. offer no health coverage or other benefits, and what health coverage you can get in the U.S. costs more for less healthcare provided than Canada, or nearly anywhere else in the world for that matter.

    I really don't get why people would say it's a good thing for us to be like a Mexico to another country just north of us.

  3. #53
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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by loki81 View Post
    how are we defining essential? according to http://www.bls.gov/cps/minwage2011tbls.htm#5, 68.1% of the minimum wage sector is composed of Leisure/Hospitality (51.3%, which I assume includes everything from bus boys to McDonald's workers) and retail sales (16.8). I'm not sure I'd quantify either of those categories as "essential" (but likely, easily replaceable and with a low-skill requirement for the most part)
    Both are most certainly essential to a service-based economy. And we've become one not because of immigration as benvolio would assert but because our industrialists and corporatists realized they can go make gap t-shirts and nikes shoes while paying someone 18 cents an hour in a sweatshop but still come back and sell them here for $29.99 or $129.99.

  4. #54
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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    ^Not as much as the FOX Nation and RUSH Nation voters are.....
    Since neither of them are runing for office, what difference does it make?

  5. #55

    Re: State of the Union

    Many of the lowest paying jobs are the least essential. Human labor is being eliminated in the areas.

    fast food, retail sales, and sanitation/maintenance are seeing more technology and less need for any human skill. The pos system at McDonald's requires no knowledge at all. Anyone can do it. Or no one. There are self service kiosks now. Order and pay without need for a person to take the order.

    This is actually a very good thing. It frees up people to do jobs that technology has not eliminated yet.

    This is an effect of technology. It is why there are very few elevator operators left. It is why you never see lectors and those kids who ran stocks between brokers at the stock exchange anymore. Should we subsidize these unnecessary jobs to give people something to do?

  6. #56
    JUB Addict maxpowr9's Avatar
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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by loki81 View Post
    how are we defining essential? according to http://www.bls.gov/cps/minwage2011tbls.htm#5, 68.1% of the minimum wage sector is composed of Leisure/Hospitality (51.3%, which I assume includes everything from bus boys to McDonald's workers) and retail sales (16.8). I'm not sure I'd quantify either of those categories as "essential" (but likely, easily replaceable and with a low-skill requirement for the most part)
    It's the reason why basing an economy heavily on services is doomed and a mixed goods economy is best. When you start to see more and more brick and mortar businesses close down, those jobs will be gone forever.

    If it wasn't for my generation's ineptitude in the kitchen, the food industry would be in panic mode right now too.

  7. #57
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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by itsmejeff View Post
    Health care: meaningless "reform" that does not do anything to address costs
    economic recovery: minimal; US strength is based solely in European weakness right now.
    Iraq war: that may have ended, but the
    bin Laden: assassinated, not captured; body dragged around for campaign points
    auto industry: salvation? how? dumping tens of billions into two companies that had terrible business practices and produced shitty products?
    "gay marriage": nonexistent. marriage has nothing to do with sexuality (it deals in sex, where such restrictions exist). It was not even something that Obama wanted to do. He did it for political purposes. It was popular so he claimed to support it. Where is the support for polygamy or incestuous unions? Nowhere, because only truly liberal people support it and they do not matter in terms of elections.
    Well this part of the reply right speaks volumes on your bias. European weakness or not, the American economy is a on a strong and steady recovery.

    Bin Laden was assassinated correct, but he was given a proper muslim burial by a Islamic Chaplan and thrown into the river. His body hasn't been paraded around anywhere.

    Gay marriage is a thing, and if you want to compare it to incest and polygamy, I feel this board might now be for you. Not to mention, Obama has always supported gay rights, maybe not gay marriage in the beginning, but he has sense changed his toon. Whether for political reasons or not, this is a score for the community. But if you are comparing it to polygamy and incest, you probably don't even identify as a homosexual.

    That does not even make any sense. Pretty much everyone works hard. That does not mean that they should get ahead. Shoveling shit is hard work, but it has very little value.
    Some of this I agree with, but in truth, I believe shit shovelers actually make a very decent living compared to a McDonalds employee. Either way, Obama was not talking about that. He is talking about those people who work their ass off at McDonalds to put their way through college to hopefully get a nice paying job and support their futures and families if they have them, and not having that possibility anymore. A college degree sadly doesn't take people very far anymore.

    And love? What the fuck? Love is bullshit. It does not matter (except when it does; polygamists and those in incestuous relationships are evil and deserve no recognition of their "love").
    I'm not trying to attack you, but you sound like a sad, lonely person.

    The US already spends more on education that almost every other nation. That is true. Look it up. The results are pitiful. Americans are terrible when it comes to knowledge in math and science. And it is not like they are not being educated. You know what country has the highest rate of educational attainment at the tertiary level? Canada. You know what nation is second? the US. Only one nation sees more college graduates.
    It isn't the money poured into it, it is the quality and the organization of it. We are still trying to teach children like it is the 70's and expecting the same results. Too many distractions, too many things in the world to distract children. There needs to be a overhaul or how we teach our children, not cutting programs or spending more money. Throwing money at something doesn't fix anything. Math and science isn't hard to learn if you make it interesting for the kids. And stop acting like they are little retards who need to take it slow. Educational attainment at shit. You can go to school everyday and not learn and damn thing, and because so much of a schools funding is based on these dumb standardized test performance, they pass kids who slept through every class.

    Immigration reform? Immigration should be open, but no one wants that. Americans are xenophobic nationalists. Nationality law will never be fixed either. Advanced nations do not have jus soli citizenship. It creates a potential for a abuse. It is an obsolete idea in the age of cheap air travel and visa waivers.
    Why is it that America should have open immigration? No other country has it. Canada doesnt have it, and Mexico is very vehement about protect it's southern border. Ensuring that no one can illegally get into the country from any other country below them. In fact, if we protected our borders like Mexico does it's southern one, we would have such a marginal problem illegal immigration.

    I will admit, some Americans are xenophobic, but not the majority. Americans have no problem with immigration. This nation is a melting pot of immigrants. People who still to this day identify with their home country and live in communities filled with only those type of people. Look at the east coast with the descendants of Irish immigrants, Polish immigrants, German immigrants. Americans have a problem with the illegal part, not the immigration part.

    Deserve a vote? What does that even mean? And what of the people not killed? do the people incarcerated for years over victimless crimes like drugs or prostitution deserve a vote too? Do people killed by the scumbags in the US military deserve a vote?
    Why would the enemy killed by serviceman deserve a vote? They arent even American. Regardless, this last post makes me think your just a delusional troll. So I will treat you as one.

  8. #58
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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by loki81 View Post
    giving an 11 minute speech with absolutely no break is hard on the mouth. with an audience in the room you can at least take a break during applauses, but the minority speech seems to just be a guy in an empty room speaking to a camera.
    Hard on mouth?...Please...Some Men & Women can Give GREAT Blow-Jobs for 30-min with no break, No Water while sweating like Pigs..You can testify to this....Marco doesnt get a pass....

    Some Men can Fuck pass 11-min, standing-up, sitting-down, laying on their backs all while moaning constantly and Sweating like Hogs....You can testify to this as well...Marco does NOT get a pass...

  9. #59
    JUB Addict maxpowr9's Avatar
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    Re: State of the Union

    @Apollo, the problem with the education system is the unions which rewards seniority [see: full-salary pensions after 20-years of teaching] instead of merit. It's why my parents wouldn't let my brother or me set foot in a public school. You would have to seriously overhaul the unions which are strangling the school system to get a better bang for your buck.

  10. #60
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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by maxpowr9 View Post
    @Apollo, the problem with the education system is the unions which rewards seniority [see: full-salary pensions after 20-years of teaching] instead of merit. It's why my parents wouldn't let my brother or me set foot in a public school. You would have to seriously overhaul the unions which are strangling the school system to get a better bang for your buck.
    Oh I agree 100%. If the teachers union would stop protecting horrible teachers and allowing for merit based on real performance, our education would be in such great shape.

  11. #61
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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by maxpowr9 View Post
    @Apollo, the problem with the education system is the unions which rewards seniority [see: full-salary pensions after 20-years of teaching] instead of merit. It's why my parents wouldn't let my brother or me set foot in a public school. You would have to seriously overhaul the unions which are strangling the school system to get a better bang for your buck.
    Quote Originally Posted by Apollo View Post
    Oh I agree 100%. If the teachers union would stop protecting horrible teachers and allowing for merit based on real performance, our education would be in such great shape.
    Take an underpaid field that requires a fairly substantial amount of rather specific college level education, which spent on another field could probably yield one a better job-- and then take away one of the few reasons some people might be persuaded to do it (that you will get a decent benefit plan if you make a lifelong career out of it), and tell people maybe they'll get retirement benefits if they measure up to some "merit" system which we have no idea how that would be set...

    Sorry, but I don't think it's a good idea. If you want better teachers, making teaching a competitive field where better people are competing to get the jobs because the job is well paid. The entire paradigm about "fixing" the education problem has worked backwards from "well, we don't really want to spend any more MONEY on education", and therefore has focused entirely on "how can we penalize teachers and schools for not being exceptional, within the framework of a field where we don't pay anyone to be exceptional, and we don't pay enough to attract exceptional people."

    That has to change before some bitchin about unions or a purportedly large number of "overpaid, over-benefitted bad teachers."

  12. #62
    JUB Addict maxpowr9's Avatar
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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by loki81 View Post
    er, giving a blowjob usually generates saliva (and other liquids in your mouth)... but speaking for that long without a break leads to a pretty dry mouth.

    when you're giving a speech with an audience, you at least get applause breaks to take a sip (or at least close your mouth for a second). the minority speech was just him awkwardly speaking into a camera in an empty room.
    Actually if the VP debate was an inclination, it was said that drinking water heavily] was a sign of lying.

  13. #63
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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by loki81 View Post
    er, giving a blowjob usually generates saliva (and other liquids in your mouth)... but speaking for that long without a break leads to a pretty dry mouth.

    when you're giving a speech with an audience, you at least get applause breaks to take a sip (or at least close your mouth for a second). the minority speech was just him awkwardly speaking into a camera in an empty room.
    The guy looked laughable, and it was set up incredibly awkwardly. I would say exactly the same if he were on my team. The water was too far, instead of right in front of him, and he tried to maintain some weird-ass eye contact with the camera while nervously sipping - dafuq? It was a joke, and not really a funny one.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  14. #64
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    Re: State of the Union

    And just because I'm a douche ^_^

    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  15. #65
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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    Did anyone see Rand Paul's rebuttal?
    I didn't.

    But, it is interesting that the Republican Party is not capable of crafting a single "response" (if you care to call it that) to the SOTU. They need two of them.

    Also, I have been surprised that nobody seems to care about the Tea Party response. Nobody's talking about it. I think that the Tea Party movement may be dying. (Although, for that matter, nobody would be talking about Rubio's speech, either, if he hadn't taken that drink).

  16. #66
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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    Oh dear lord.

    The GOP has learned nothing since the Jindal embarrassment.

    Did anyone see Rand Paul's rebuttal?
    You know what the best part is? As long as they fail to recognize their errors in legislating or governing they will continue to offer tone deaf policies to the American people.

    What is even better than that???? The tea party isn't going anywhere and they are like a Ross Perot that wont go away and has the potential to affect every race in the nation. It is ... priceless! Just look at the thoroughly inept responses by the TP base in this thread for proof that they will have a ignorant slobbering group of savants to keep the TP going. I mean any belief system that can make you a self loathing gay man is pretty persuasive to the low information voter.
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  17. #67
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    Re: State of the Union

    What I'd like to know is, why was Rubio so nervous as to need this desperate sip? What is he hiding? When will the GOP give us some answers? DO THEY KNOW MORE ABOUT BENGHAZI THAN WE HAVE BEEN TOLD?!
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  18. #68
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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by kevin23 View Post
    WOW !! I finally agree with something Evanrick says. His is the most sensible post in this thread. Well said my boy.
    you finally agree? its not like ive been wrong in the past. but thank you.


  19. #69

    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by Apollo View Post
    Well this part of the reply right speaks volumes on your bias. European weakness or not, the American economy is a on a strong and steady recovery.
    Projected GDP growth is less than 2% per year for the next century. that is half of what it was during the past century. Competition from other markets will limit the US economy.
    Gay marriage is a thing, and if you want to compare it to incest and polygamy, I feel this board might now be for you. Not to mention, Obama has always supported gay rights, maybe not gay marriage in the beginning, but he has sense changed his toon. Whether for political reasons or not, this is a score for the community. But if you are comparing it to polygamy and incest, you probably don't even identify as a homosexual.
    I'm not trying to attack you, but you sound like a sad, lonely person.
    That does not mean that I am not right. I am. There is no difference between polygamy, same sex unions, incestuous unions, unions with a predetermined dissolution date, or anything like that. All are about giving the people involved the power to enter in the union that they desire. Keep the state out of the bedroom, right? Oh, you mean only out of your bedroom. Polygamy is bad, so it should be illegal. That really makes sense. For reals, equality only extends as far as you want it to.

    Love has nothing to do with marriage. It is not required. It is not necessary. There is no love test. There is a contract though. A contract that creates certain rights and provides specific benefits (they should not exist, but that is another issue). Those benefits should be available to all of society. Two old ladies who want to share social security benefits should be able to marry, even if they are sisters. So should eight people who are seeking family insurance coverage over a vacation. Discrimination does not make society better.
    Some of this I agree with, but in truth, I believe shit shovelers actually make a very decent living compared to a McDonalds employee. Either way, Obama was not talking about that. He is talking about those people who work their ass off at McDonalds to put their way through college to hopefully get a nice paying job and support their futures and families if they have them, and not having that possibility anymore. A college degree sadly doesn't take people very far anymore.
    No, he clearly is. Families get ahead on minimum wage. Families making minimum wage should not have children.

    he is trying to make stupid people happy. that is all. The world is not fair. Dumb people are at a disadvantage. Ugly people are at a disadvantage. People without talent are at a disadvantage. That cannot be changed.
    Why is it that America should have open immigration? No other country has it. Canada doesnt have it, and Mexico is very vehement about protect it's southern border. Ensuring that no one can illegally get into the country from any other country below them. In fact, if we protected our borders like Mexico does it's southern one, we would have such a marginal problem illegal immigration.
    Open immigration would allow US businesses to have access to the skills and experience that are critically needed currently. Not everyone wanting to get into the US is uneducated and talentless. Some are highly skilled. Many have skills that the US needs.
    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Take an underpaid field that requires a fairly substantial amount of rather specific college level education, which spent on another field could probably yield one a better job-- and then take away one of the few reasons some people might be persuaded to do it (that you will get a decent benefit plan if you make a lifelong career out of it), and tell people maybe they'll get retirement benefits if they measure up to some "merit" system which we have no idea how that would be set...
    Could most teachers work in other fields? Maybe college level professors or retired professionals who teach in high school, but not most regular teachers. Teachers do very poorly in terms of SAT scores. Only math and science teachers are above average in math and science scores.

    There are a lot of dumb teachers out there, but that is the nature of US education system. Other countries do better because teaching is a real profession. Intelligent people teach. It is not about just wanting to work with children or some other nonsense.

  20. #70

    Re: State of the Union

    The SOTU address is proof that you just can't fix stupid.

  21. #71

    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    I have not known many conservative gays to sympathize with the dignity or goals of the LGBT community.
    Granfalloons are for children. I seek the same rights, privileges, and social benefits for all people. How exactly is support for polygamy conservative? I am more liberal than you could ever hope to be.
    You really ought to speak only for yourself.
    No, I speak for the law as well. No requirement for love or fidelity. Marriage is a legal agreement.
    The principal effect of marriage is to legally and culturally engender a familial relationship between intimate and interdependent non-related persons.
    Unnecessary. Families exist without marriage. Legal relationships exist as well.

    Married families are on the decline anywise. People are marrying and having children later, if at all. Nearly half of adults are unmarried. Nearly half of all children are born to unmarried parents.

    Additionally, the preferential treatment to married persons unfairly discriminates against unmarried/single/4everalone (represent!) persons.

  22. #72
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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by loki81 View Post
    do we think Obama will actually make a push for it, though?

    in 2008, he called for the minimum wage to be raised to $9.50 by 2011 and then never mentioned it again.

    now we're down to $9.00 by 2015... at this rate, he'll be endorsing lowering it by the end of his Presidency

    tbh, I can't wrap my head around equating minimum wage with living wage when a huge share of people earning minimum wage aren't people who need to live off of it (eg: part-time student workers still being supported by their parents).
    This may be the case where you live and in upper white well off suburbia but I can assure that's not the case in a lot of America. What you say most certainly isn't true in my state of Florida. There are thousands of adults from 18 to 85 working at minimum wage jobs or just above it where there is no raise ever unless a increase is mandated and forced on the employer. Even in back ass wards Florida the issue was put on the ballot and much to the displeasure of the low life greedy Republicans who control the state as well as the chamber of commerce the voters approved of a increase over the federal minimum wage adjusted by inflation. Its not much currently 7.67 a hr but that is better then the federal wage of 7.25.
    A lot of employers here like to pay 8.25 or so a hr and if a increase was made law then it would push up the prevailing wage to about a buck over the law.

    Take a ride to West Virginia or even closer SW PA and check out what wages are and see who are working those jobs from drive through at McDonald s to bagging groceries at Kroger and its not all that many high school kids of past eras.

  23. #73
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by itsmejeff View Post
    Could most teachers work in other fields? Maybe college level professors or retired professionals who teach in high school, but not most regular teachers. Teachers do very poorly in terms of SAT scores. Only math and science teachers are above average in math and science scores.

    There are a lot of dumb teachers out there, but that is the nature of US education system. Other countries do better because teaching is a real profession. Intelligent people teach. It is not about just wanting to work with children or some other nonsense.
    Your response utterly fails to address the portion of my post you cut out of the quote-- where I said you aren't going to attract better people with the kind of wages teaching pays in this country, and it's unrealistic to expect that simply tightening the standards when teaching is already an undesirable job for its requirements and compensation, is going to be part of the solution.

    Bitching about teacher quality while being unwilling to pay teachers more on par with leading first world countries, yet expecting highly qualified people to flock to the job, is fantasyland. Things like No Child Left Behind operated on the similar principle of: let's not make better people want to teach, and let's not make teaching better: let's just devise ways to penalize it and make it even less rewarded for when it's bad.

    How'd that work out?

    Yup, people bitching about teacher unions or how we should hack benefit or compensation packages to teachers because "some teachers are really bad" is just bullshit armchair expertise that won't ever improve the situation at all. You're not going to attract good people to a field by underpaying it and increasing the requirements to do it, and then removing its benefits.
    Last edited by xbuzzerx; February 14th, 2013 at 11:48 AM.

  24. #74
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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by itsmejeff View Post
    Projected GDP growth is less than 2% per year for the next century. that is half of what it was during the past century. Competition from other markets will limit the US economy.
    Considering how large our economy is, 2% is still pretty good. We can't pretend that we are going to be a superpower forever. Eventually other countries and markets will dominate and we will have to adapt.


    That does not mean that I am not right. I am. There is no difference between polygamy, same sex unions, incestuous unions, unions with a predetermined dissolution date, or anything like that. All are about giving the people involved the power to enter in the union that they desire. Keep the state out of the bedroom, right? Oh, you mean only out of your bedroom. Polygamy is bad, so it should be illegal. That really makes sense. For reals, equality only extends as far as you want it to.
    If someone wishes to be a polygamist, or fuck their farm animals, more power to them. I honestly don't care. And if they want to get married to their five wives, they can fight for it in the courts like the gays are. Being gay isn't just about sex, it is who we are. It is what we are, no matter what people say. To attempt to marginalize homosexuality is useless, because you and the people who oppose homosexuality are the only ones who will believe it. Not to mention, marriage isn't just about being able to call the man I love my husband. It is about the legal benefits that come along with it. I want to be able to go see my man in the hospital if he is sick. I don't want some nuts religious beliefs preventing me from getting in.

    Love has nothing to do with marriage. It is not required. It is not necessary. There is no love test. There is a contract though. A contract that creates certain rights and provides specific benefits (they should not exist, but that is another issue). Those benefits should be available to all of society. Two old ladies who want to share social security benefits should be able to marry, even if they are sisters. So should eight people who are seeking family insurance coverage over a vacation. Discrimination does not make society better.
    I actually agree with you. But when I have the option to marry, it will most likely be because I am in love with the man, and I want to spend the rest of my life with him, and marriage is really the ultimate last step.

    No, he clearly is. Families get ahead on minimum wage. Families making minimum wage should not have children.
    Families do not get ahead on minimum wage. If you are working on minimum wage, most likely you will need a roommate to pay for rent, utilities, food, water and transportation to your shitty job. No one is going to make enough money to live by themselves unless they opt to not take advantage of modern comforts.

    he is trying to make stupid people happy. that is all. The world is not fair. Dumb people are at a disadvantage. Ugly people are at a disadvantage. People without talent are at a disadvantage. That cannot be changed.
    Yes, life isn't fair. But as the President, it is his job to try and take care of his citizens and ensure everyone has a chance to get by in life. Stupid people work have a chance in life like everyone else. They can work any number of dangerous labor jobs that pay amazing because of the nature of the job. At least in American they can. I kind of feel sorry for you. You see the world in such a sad light. Life isn't that bad, and if you're contemplating suicide, you need to realize that. You can't live in a fantasy world and then get mad at the world when you realize your fantasy isn't being fulfilled. If you start living in the real world, and accept the things you cant change or fight for change, then you probably wouldn't be worried about committing suicide.

    Open immigration would allow US businesses to have access to the skills and experience that are critically needed currently. Not everyone wanting to get into the US is uneducated and talentless. Some are highly skilled. Many have skills that the US needs.
    For those with critical skills, they are more than welcome to come to America to work. Silicon Valley is full of the smartest people from all over the world working for them. Google and the like actively recruit overseas and offer them jobs in America and they are all here legally. Immigration is not a hurdle for people with great talents that are sought after by US companies.

    Could most teachers work in other fields? Maybe college level professors or retired professionals who teach in high school, but not most regular teachers. Teachers do very poorly in terms of SAT scores. Only math and science teachers are above average in math and science scores.
    Do you have a source for that statement?

    There are a lot of dumb teachers out there, but that is the nature of US education system. Other countries do better because teaching is a real profession. Intelligent people teach. It is not about just wanting to work with children or some other nonsense.
    Teaching is a real profession and the programs out there instructing teachers are good as well. The problem is how the system is currently set up and the teachers union protecting bad teachers from being terminated so the talented ones can get in there and teach our children.

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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by itsmejeff View Post
    There is no difference between polygamy, same sex unions, incestuous unions, unions with a predetermined dissolution date, or anything like that. All are about giving the people involved the power to enter in the union that they desire.
    Quote Originally Posted by Apollo View Post
    Being gay isn't just about sex, it is who we are. It is what we are, no matter what people say.
    There are logical and moral arguments against polygamy or incest and they are different from arguments against gay marriage. In his 2003 dissent to John Geddes Lawrence and Tyron Garner, Petitioners v. Texas, Justice Scalia warned that state laws against bigamy, same-sex marriage, adult incest, prostitution, masturbation, adultery, fornication, bestiality, and obscenity were at risk of invalidation if interpretation of those laws ignores “traditional morals.” Perhaps he inserted gay marriage as a red herring and used the opportunity to suggest it is on the same order as other activities for which the logical and/or moral arguments-against are necessarily different. The contemporary move toward recognition of same-sex marriage is more about the recognition that it is not harmful to society, while also acknowledging that denying marriage to same-sex couples deprives them of a fundamental right. The Court has never regarded polygamy or incest as a fundamental right and they are arguably harmful to society.

  26. #76

    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by Apollo View Post
    If someone wishes to be a polygamist, or fuck their farm animals, more power to them. I honestly don't care.
    Sorry, Pete Singer (that guy from Princeton), but animal sex is always rape. Claims that they get gratification out of it do not prove consent. That is something that cannot be compared to consensual relations or a willful relationship between adults.
    Families do not get ahead on minimum wage.
    "Our job as Americans is to restore that basic bargain that says, if you work hard, if you're willing to meet your responsibilities, you can get ahead. [...] Even with the tax relief we've put in place, a family with two kids that earns the minimum wage still lives below the poverty line. That's wrong."

    Not exactly supporting the words of the president, are you? He is clearly stating that the minimum wage should be enough for people to live off of. including a family. People barely able to support themselves should be able to support children. That is the argument. It is bullshit. Society does not need more poor people, nor should it encourage the poor to have children that they cannot support.
    Yes, life isn't fair. But as the President, it is his job to try and take care of his citizens and ensure everyone has a chance to get by in life. Stupid people work have a chance in life like everyone else. They can work any number of dangerous labor jobs that pay amazing because of the nature of the job. At least in American they can. I kind of feel sorry for you. You see the world in such a sad light. Life isn't that bad, and if you're contemplating suicide, you need to realize that. You can't live in a fantasy world and then get mad at the world when you realize your fantasy isn't being fulfilled. If you start living in the real world, and accept the things you cant change or fight for change, then you probably wouldn't be worried about committing suicide.
    No, that is not his job. the president works for the states. People do not matter. They do not elect him. They are not his "bosses."

    "A chance to get by?" What kind of bullshit is that?

    Suicide is a lifestyle choice that is always acceptable. i doubt that you would support claims that people should stop being gay because some self-appointed moralists decided that it was "wrong." I am sure that you would not. The ironing here really is delicious.
    Do you have a source for that statement?
    this is old now, but the data has not changed much. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/12/ed...html?th&emc=th First google result. You can find more on your own.

    Yes, it is intended major, but it shows that people who are most intelligent are not looking to teach.
    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    There are logical and moral arguments against polygamy or incest and they are different from arguments against gay marriage. [...] The contemporary move toward recognition of same-sex marriage is more about the recognition that it is not harmful to society, while also acknowledging that denying marriage to same-sex couples deprives them of a fundamental right. The Court has never regarded polygamy or incest as a fundamental right and they are arguably harmful to society.
    Only if one is stupid and ignores all evidence.

    Polygamy and incest are not harmful to society. Examples of insular communities do not prove anything. Warren Jeff's community was not problematic because of polygamy, but do to allegations of sexual abuse and unions where a party was unable to consent ("sealing" children to adults). Would you consider claims that homosexualness is harmful because that guy from Penn State fucked kids?

    Incest is the same. Biological issues are exaggerated. It takes many generations in a closed mating population to see potential harm (as well as mutations). There are few guarantees of genetic issues. There is also the problem of deleterious genes existing in the population as a whole. Why not test everyone and deny permission to mate? It would help prevent retarded babies.

    Mating in a legal sense are not about children. they are not about love. They are about property and rights. Nothing else.

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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by itsmejeff View Post
    Only if one is stupid and ignores all evidence.
    Hence, my inclusion of the term, “arguably.” I think it is reasonable to suggest that some instances of polygamy or incest do not represent harm to society, though it is my impression that those instances are more the exception than the norm. I confess that I may not be fully informed. It is also possible that my reference of argument/debate is not adequately synchronized with yours and I am receptive to expand my comprehension of the underlying variables.

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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by maxpowr9 View Post
    @Apollo, the problem with the education system is the unions which rewards seniority [see: full-salary pensions after 20-years of teaching] instead of merit. It's why my parents wouldn't let my brother or me set foot in a public school. You would have to seriously overhaul the unions which are strangling the school system to get a better bang for your buck.
    FWIW, this statement is pure conjecture. There is absolutely no objective evidence to support it. None. It is mindless union-bashing.

    It is extremely difficult (IMHO, impossible) to measure the effectiveness of teachers fairly. You cannot use student performance on standardized tests, because there are too many factors which effect such performance which are outside of the teachers' control. Things like class size, proficiency in English of the students, the resources available to students at home, the resources available to students at school, nutrition, cultural attitudes about education, etc. It is simply unfair to conclude that a new teacher in an affluent district is a better teacher than an experienced teacher in a poor district just because the students in the affluent area out-perform the poor students on standardized tests. There are reasons for such differences that have nothing to do with the quality of the teachers.

    Teaching effectiveness is a nebulous quality that defies objective measurement. It is like trying to measure generosity of spirit or physical attractiveness. Such things are important in life, but not quantifiable. If you cannot measure such qualities reliably, then you cannot fairly use such measurements to ascertain pay.

    Throughout almost all of the working world, pay (and position) are largely functions of the time spent with the company. The longer an employee has been around, the more likely that employee is to have undergone pay increases. This is not to say that all experienced employees are more productive and effective workers than new hires. Of course not. But, experience and loyalty are desirable qualities as well, and far easier to quantify on most jobs than effectiveness or productivity.

    Your contention that teachers should be treated differently than most all other employees in the working world seems odd to me. Why do you think senior teachers are "strangling" their school districts with better pay? Do you think that most companies are being "strangled" by their senior staff? Do you think that all employees of all companies should be subjected to some sort of merit test, and their pay be structured according to that test, independent of seniority? Do you really think that is even possible for most jobs?
    Last edited by T-Rexx; February 14th, 2013 at 10:50 PM.

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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    FWIW, this statement is pure conjecture. There is absolutely no objective evidence to support it. None. It is mindless union-bashing.

    It is extremely difficult (IMHO, impossible) to measure the effectiveness of teachers fairly. You cannot use student performance on standardized tests, because there are too many factors which effect such performance which are outside of the teachers' control. Things like class size, proficiency in English of the students, the resources available to students at home, the resources available to students at school, nutrition, cultural attitudes about education, etc. It is simply unfair to conclude that a new teacher in an affluent district is a better teacher than an experienced teacher in a poor district just because the students in the affluent area out-perform the poor students on standardized tests. There are reasons for such differences that have nothing to do with the quality of the teachers.

    Teaching effectiveness is a nebulous quality that defies objective measurement. It is like trying to measure generosity of spirit or physical attractiveness. Such things are important in life, but not quantifiable. If you cannot measure such qualities reliably, then you cannot fairly use such measurements to ascertain pay.

    Throughout almost all of the working world, pay (and position) are largely functions of the time spent with the company. The longer an employee has been around, the more likely that employee is to have undergone pay increases. This is not to say that all experienced employees are more productive and effective workers than new hires. Of course not. But, experience and loyalty are desirable qualities as well, and far easier to quantify on most jobs than effectiveness or productivity.

    Your contention that teachers should be treated differently than most all other employees in the working world seems odd to me. Why do you think senior teachers are "strangling" their school districts with better pay? Do you think that most companies are being "strangled" by their senior staff? Do you think that all employees of all companies should be subjected to some sort of merit test, and their pay be structured according to that test, independent of seniority? Do you really think that is even possible for most jobs?
    That's what killed me as well. A teacher is horrible, but has given 20 years of service to a school district without being laid off? Okay. And then gets a benefit package because they've given their entire career to being a teacher. Yup, definitely the people we want to be sure aren't able to retire on the job they chose to do and managed to do for decades.

    Agreed. Mindless union bashing. But I'm sure we non-Bostonites just don't know enough about the situation.

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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by nycguydowntown View Post
    marco rubio is a nothing---always has been---he looked like and sounded like a 9th grader--he thanked a bunch of gov programs for helping his family and then was like we don't need gov programs--he's a moron---Obama was amazing and the end of his speech was very moving--especially the gun victim part--and the 102 year old woman who waited 6 hours to vote in Florida---looked like Boner was holding back tears but his peons in the audience would have strung him up


    The Calvin Coolidge Millard Fillmore of 2016!
    Last edited by chrisrobin; February 14th, 2013 at 11:00 PM.

    What would Buddah do?

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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisrobin View Post
    The Calvin Coolidge Millard Fillmore of 2016!
    I certainly hope not. Millard Fillmore was president of the United States.

    More like the John McCain or Mitt Romney of 2016.
    Last edited by T-Rexx; February 14th, 2013 at 11:12 PM.

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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    His speech was a total disaster... if he is the savior of the republican party... I kinda feel pity for them. He's a mess. And he should remember... always carry a bottle of water around. When one is spewing out steaming bullshit your throat could get dry. Marco Rubio... a rich white guy who convinces nobody. Yea, he won't be a Millard Fillmore... probably more like Bob Dole instead of McCain or Romney. He's dry and boring... rather would watch paint dry.
    Quoted for no other reason than it made me laugh

    No attempt whatsoever made to conceal blind loathing

    Does the response (Rubio's) reflect knowledge of Obama's speech prior ?

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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Minimum wage in North Dakota is $7.25 http://www.dol.gov/whd/minwage/america.htm#NorthDakota

    Minimum wage just across the border is $10.25 in Manitoba, Canada http://www.gov.mb.ca/labour/standard...factsheet.html

    On top of that, Canada has national healthcare-- and an enormous amount of minimum wage jobs in the U.S. offer no health coverage or other benefits, and what health coverage you can get in the U.S. costs more for less healthcare provided than Canada, or nearly anywhere else in the world for that matter.

    I really don't get why people would say it's a good thing for us to be like a Mexico to another country just north of us.
    I used the example of the US being Canada's Mexico once, in the form of humor, so if I offended, please accept my apology.
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    Re: State of the Union

    @T-Rexx.

    At least in MA, it is not simple conjecture. It is FACT. One of mom's neighbors was a middle school math teacher in the town I grew up in [she tutored me when I was young because I was an "advanced" student]. She retired at 50 because she get a full-salary pension due to her years of "service". You tell me what other "middle-class" job would let you comfortably retire at 50? I do personally feel she was a great teacher no doubt but again, you find me that job with that kind of benefits.

    Marco Rubio is till a douchenozzle though.
    Last edited by maxpowr9; February 15th, 2013 at 07:11 PM.

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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by maxpowr9 View Post
    @T-Rexx.

    At least in MA, it is not simple conjecture. It is FACT. One of mom's neighbors was a middle school math teacher in the town I grew up in [she tutored me when I was young because I was an "advanced" student]. She retired at 50 because she get a full-salary pension due to her years of "service". You tell me what other "middle-class" job would let you comfortably retire at 50? I do personally feel she was a great teacher no doubt but again, you find me that job with that kind of benefits.
    Was she married...? Was she wealthy...?

    This is 1 friggin anecdote about 1 person presented as supporting evidence for a wide scale comment about how to fix national education.

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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by maxpowr9 View Post
    @T-Rexx.

    At least in MA, it is not simple conjecture. It is FACT. One of mom's neighbors was a middle school math teacher in the town I grew up in [she tutored me when I was young because I was an "advanced" student]. She retired at 50 because she get a full-salary pension due to her years of "service". You tell me what other "middle-class" job would let you comfortably retire at 50? I do personally feel she was a great teacher no doubt but again, you find me that job with that kind of benefits.

    Marco Rubio is till a douchenozzle though.
    What is wrong with that? Do you have the same problem with NFL players who get paid millions and can retire at 35 or 40? What about these young CEOs that start a business then sell it off at 35 to net billions? If you're good at your job, why should you not get properly compensated for it and why should you not be able to retire early and enjoy life instead of working until you're dead?

    I get really ticked off when people feel that just because someone works for some form of government means that they should be miserable, get paid little, and have to wait until they're 65 to retire. Your money pays the CEO of a huge corporation or the star NFL quarterback the same as it pays that teacher, so why is it personal achievement and hard work for two of those cases and a cushy job with outrageous benefits for the other?

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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    What is wrong with that? Do you have the same problem with NFL players who get paid millions and can retire at 35 or 40? What about these young CEOs that start a business then sell it off at 35 to net billions? If you're good at your job, why should you not get properly compensated for it and why should you not be able to retire early and enjoy life instead of working until you're dead?

    I get really ticked off when people feel that just because someone works for some form of government means that they should be miserable, get paid little, and have to wait until they're 65 to retire. Your money pays the CEO of a huge corporation or the star NFL quarterback the same as it pays that teacher, so why is it personal achievement and hard work for two of those cases and a cushy job with outrageous benefits for the other?
    Those are private institutions which I choose to support and/or work for. I don't get that say in public institutions. I remember my mom bitching over the fact that regardless if your child attended public school, you got whacked $10k PER CHILD under 18 if you had a deeded property in the town. My mom looked at it as $20k/year she threw away for services she would never use which is where I get my libertarian streak from.

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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by maxpowr9 View Post
    Those are private institutions which I choose to support and/or work for. I don't get that say in public institutions. I remember my mom bitching over the fact that regardless if your child attended public school, you got whacked $10k PER CHILD under 18 if you had a deeded property in the town. My mom looked at it as $20k/year she threw away for services she would never use which is where I get my libertarian streak from.
    This still doesn't really answer Tiger's point as to why you seem to be operating from a baseline belief that public workers should be poorly or more poorly compensated just because they're public workers..

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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by maxpowr9 View Post
    Those are private institutions which I choose to support and/or work for. I don't get that say in public institutions. I remember my mom bitching over the fact that regardless if your child attended public school, you got whacked $10k PER CHILD under 18 if you had a deeded property in the town. My mom looked at it as $20k/year she threw away for services she would never use which is where I get my libertarian streak from.
    You do have a choice in public institutions. If you don't like the taxes you pay, then you can move to a place that doesn't tax you for public institutions such as education. I will wish you luck with finding any place that does this.

    And you can go tell your mom that even though she may not have a child in public school, the existence of public schools still benefits her indirectly, thus she is expected to pay for it. Would should rather have the neighbor child in school during the day or breaking into her house because they have nothing else to do with themselves since they can't afford private school? Yes, I realize that's not the only possibility, but it is meant to illustrate one of the many benefits public schools provide to the public.

    My mom has been a teacher for over 35 years now. She is 62 years old and hasn't retired yet. She doesn't bring in these gobs of money and benefits that you seem to think they do and she has done a shit load more to help society than any NFL player has. However, you believe she shouldn't get paid any significant amount of money simply because you believe that your taxes shouldn't support paying these teachers a decent living wage? I'm assuming you'd rather keep that extra money so you can go out and buy a new TV or have a few extra nights out right because you don't directly benefit from public schools since you don't have kids enrolled in them. Get a fucking clue and learn that as a society, we're all obligated to make sure that everyone has a chance to succeed and is rewarded for good work and not just those that work in the private sector.

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    JUB Addict T-Rexx's Avatar
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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by maxpowr9 View Post
    @T-Rexx.

    At least in MA, it is not simple conjecture. It is FACT. One of mom's neighbors was a middle school math teacher in the town I grew up in [she tutored me when I was young because I was an "advanced" student]. She retired at 50 because she get a full-salary pension due to her years of "service".
    No, it's not "FACT." It is complete conjecture on your part.

    You object to teachers' unions because when you were a kid you believe one of your neighbors retired inappropriately early as a teacher?



    Sorry, but a single anecdotal experience is not sufficient for establishment of policy. You have no idea what family resources the teacher in question enjoyed, nor what income her husband contributed to her ability to retire early. And you were a kid - you are basing your opinions on your mother's gossip! Good grief!

    Sorry, but that's mindless union bashing.



    Quote Originally Posted by maxpowr9 View Post
    You tell me what other "middle-class" job would let you comfortably retire at 50? I do personally feel she was a great teacher no doubt but again, you find me that job with that kind of benefits.
    Retirements in the 50s are actually a fairly common practice at Proctor & Gamble here in Cincinnati. I used to have a client who worked there as a janitor for many years, retired at 55, and today lives in an expensive home with several classic cars. He told me his sole income was his employment at P & G. He worked there for decades as a janitor, and became very well compensated for his seniority and loyalty to the company.

    I think a teacher in the public sector deserves just as much compensation as a janitor in the private.
    Last edited by T-Rexx; February 15th, 2013 at 09:48 PM.

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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by maxpowr9 View Post
    I remember my mom bitching over the fact that regardless if your child attended public school, you got whacked $10k PER CHILD under 18 if you had a deeded property in the town. My mom looked at it as $20k/year she threw away for services she would never use which is where I get my libertarian streak from.
    Most of the property owners I know don't even make $20K/year! Your mom could only be paying that if she is quite wealthy, and owns much valuable property.

    You have told us that you and your brother were educated in private schools, due to your family's disdain for public school teachers.

    I suspect your "libertarian streak" comes from the fact that you have been raised in a wealthy household which does not care to give back to society anything reflective of the extent to which your family has benefited.

    Please excuse me while I vomit.

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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by maxpowr9 View Post
    My mom looked at it as $20k/year she threw away for services she would never use …
    Though property taxes generally do support local education – that is often a large part of what gives value to the property itself.


    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    Please excuse me while I vomit.
    Do you perceive an advantage to students who receive their education in private institutions?

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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by maxpowr9 View Post
    Those are private institutions which I choose to support and/or work for. I don't get that say in public institutions. I remember my mom bitching over the fact that regardless if your child attended public school, you got whacked $10k PER CHILD under 18 if you had a deeded property in the town. My mom looked at it as $20k/year she threw away for services she would never use which is where I get my libertarian streak from.
    Misinformed opinion. You should PM me sometime. Would be happy to talk to you about it, max.
    #439th oldest member on JUB.

  44. #94
    JUB Addict T-Rexx's Avatar
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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    Do you perceive an advantage to students who receive their education in private institutions?
    Yes, I do.

    I was educated in both public and private schools, growing up - mostly private. The quality of education in the private schools I attended was unbelievable. The quality of education in the public schools I attended was rather poor.

    When I was in third grade, I attended a public school where it was common for children to suddenly stand up beside their desks, drop their pants, and pee on the floor. I was too young at the time to really appreciate how staggeringly inappropriate was this behavior. But, my parents were not. They pulled me out of that school and placed me in the only available option - a local parochial school.

    At the time of my transfer to the private school, I had not yet learned to multiply numbers. However, in the private school, they were doing (in third grade!) elementary algebraic functions! I went home crying every day, because I was so completely lost in all of my classes. I had been transported to an alternate universe vastly beyond the capability of my young mind to grasp.

    My experience is not an indictment of the public school teachers. I attended public school in a district where fully one-third of the students were on welfare. They did not have books at home. They did not have transportation to the local public library. My fellow students did not have parents who were well-educated, as were mine. They did not come from homes which understood the importance of education, nor which had the resources to demand it.

    I am the beneficiary of an extraordinarily exclusive education, available to only a handful of people on earth. While I am grateful for this opportunity, I am saddened by the fact that such opportunity is afforded to so few people. If I have benefited disproportionately from life, it is not because I am exceptional or gifted or talented in some way. It is simply for the stupid reason that my family had wealth.

    The private schools I attended were populated by students from wealthy families with vast resources at home. They were kids who had heath care and dental care and parents who could drive them about town to football games and extracurricular activities. Their parents were educated and could help them with their homework. The kids in the public school from which I came had none of these advantages.

    Yes, of course, my parochial school absolutely destroyed my public school on standardized tests of academic performance. But, that was not because the private teachers were more committed to their jobs by virtue of higher pay for our superior test performance. In fact, quite the opposite - they were priests and nuns who made almost nothing for their service. Our superior test performance was based on one fact and one fact only - we were rich.
    Last edited by T-Rexx; February 16th, 2013 at 12:51 AM.

  45. #95
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    Re: State of the Union

    So remind me again what the current discussion has to do with the State of the Union address?

    I lost track there.

  46. #96
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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    What Blind loathing? I am laughing at the guy. His speech was so incredibly boring... and the glass of water shows that even his throat went dry after spewing out all the rubbish he did. I wonder if he really believes what he said lol. Rubio's response was inadequate and pathetic to say in the least.

    And I thought I was being ignored?
    Yeah...laughing at Rubio isn't the same as loathing.

    I watched the speech again after watching his performance being parodied by so many other TV personalities this week. This is all this guy's speech is going to be remembered for, because otherwise it was a lame and listless attack, lacking vision or even an iota of original thinking.

    I'm sure the RNC and all the team Owners were just cringing when they saw what a clusterfuck Rubio made of things.

    Certainly, it was an aspirational presidential career ender for their Great Latino Hope.

  47. #97

    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Was she married...? Was she wealthy...?

    This is 1 friggin anecdote about 1 person presented as supporting evidence for a wide scale comment about how to fix national education.
    Teachers retiring early with full salary is a normal thing.

  48. #98

    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Teachers retiring early with full salary is a normal thing.
    Wrong.

    Do you have links to back up your claim?

  49. #99
    What's next? chrisrobin's Avatar
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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    Yeah...laughing at Rubio isn't the same as loathing.

    I watched the speech again after watching his performance being parodied by so many other TV personalities this week. This is all this guy's speech is going to be remembered for, because otherwise it was a lame and listless attack, lacking vision or even an iota of original thinking.

    I'm sure the RNC and all the team Owners were just cringing when they saw what a clusterfuck Rubio made of things.

    Certainly, it was an aspirational presidential career ender for their Great Latino Hope.
    Do not despair. Rubio could become the next spokesman for:

    http://www.polandspring.com/#/home

    What would Buddah do?

  50. #100
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    Re: State of the Union

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post

    Our superior test performance was based on one fact and one fact only - we were rich.
    What an absurd statement. Back that up with some actual demographic data, why don't you?

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