Native American PWNS immigration protest

[Benvolio]

So please. Giancarlo give us a list of great Hispanic inventions and discoveries. What can we expect when the Hispanics take over as you keep predicting?

[GiancarloC]

So please. Giancarlo give us a list of great Hispanic inventions and discoveries. What can we expect when the Hispanics take over as you keep predicting?

Here we go again with the xenophobia. I've done that in the past and brought up numerous scientists, particularly from Brazil. What are these white inventions and discoveries? Can't name any big ones. Most of modern inventions weren't invented by whites. And deal with the reality. This country will be a better place when Latinos make up a bigger part of the country.

I guess the same smugness was what people felt for Italian immigrants... always labeled as dirty and as criminals when they first came to America. Oh and before saying "but they are white"... uh no.

I have no idea why such racism is allowed to persist on this forum. And whenever I put on the heat, it always goes back to insulting Hispanics. Pathetic! Keep on blatantly disregarding the facts!

[Benvolio]

Thanks for reminding me that the US invented the Internet. And remind us how many countries have been able to send men to the moon?

[GiancarloC]

Again, the irrelevance continues. The US hasn't sent anyone out to the moon in decades. And keep it up with the pathetic falsehoods. Are you going to change this into an attack against Hispanics?

[xbuzzerx]

So please. Giancarlo give us a list of great Hispanic inventions and discoveries. What can we expect when the Hispanics take over as you keep predicting?

A full scale biodiesel industry and amazingly engineered flex-engine cars that can run on biodiesel, fossil fuel, or any combination of the two, which can test what combination is present in the gas tank through oxygen content. And an entire infrastructure of gas stations that sell both biodiesel and fossil fuel (though the biodiesel is almost invariably cheaper.) Brazil is a decade or more ahead of us on that one because our "glorious opportunity-creating capitalism" is stifling forward progression on energy technology intentionally so that it can choke out more profit from the fossil fuel distribution industry.

[Rolyo85]

Thanks for reminding me that the US invented the Internet. And remind us how many countries have been able to send men to the moon?

Remind us how many of those countries then focused on completely incapacitating their space program because the only goal of space exploration turned out to be to show that their dick was bigger than Russia's...

[Benvolio]

Actually, the entire thread is liberals bashing white Americans.

[GiancarloC]

The only thing we're bashing is ignorance and naivete.

[Rolyo85]

Actually, the entire thread is liberals bashing white Americans.

Poor oppressed white Americans. Never mind that most of the posters here ARE white Americans. You don't get to play the victim here.

[xbuzzerx]

Actually, the entire thread is liberals bashing white Americans.

Not agreeing with you that everything good in the world came only from white Americans is no more "bashing white Americans" than saying people have the right to live free of Christian persecution is "oppressing Christian beliefs."

[Kulindahr]

Your (and the forum's) failure to see that America's wealth has come in large part from its position as an innovator and driver in new technologies is much worse than embarrassing. It is dangerous.I have never said that the American white male is the driver for all. But you are wrong in going to opposite extreme. If you cannot see what has been important in creating American prosperity, how can you be expected to preserve and protect i? Welcome to the New Dark Age.
I have spent quite a bit of time in Europe and other countries. Guess what? They have electrical systems learned from the US. They have appliances, telephones, televisions, computers. They even fly airplanes.Ordinary people drive cars, not just the wealthy. What would they do without us? What will they do in the future without US medical innovation, now that we have killed that goose.

I call bullshit. You've been arguing that only "white culture" has ever given the world anything of value; now you're dodging.

BTW, we know what has been important for shaping American prosperity, especially since the two world wars: brilliant people from all over the world came here with brilliant ideas and stayed.

BTW #2, the Republicans have been fighting against continuing that -- they want foreigners to come here to learn, develop brilliant ideas and even businesses, and then get thrown out .

[Kulindahr]

So please. Giancarlo give us a list of great Hispanic inventions and discoveries. What can we expect when the Hispanics take over as you keep predicting?

Now you're back to racism -- at its most raw. Your position reeks of a belief that different skin colors indicate intelligence and creativity.

[Kulindahr]

Thanks for reminding me that the US invented the Internet. And remind us how many countries have been able to send men to the moon?

Perhaps the real question should be "How many nations sent men to the moon and then QUIT?"

[Kulindahr]

A full scale biodiesel industry and amazingly engineered flex-engine cars that can run on biodiesel, fossil fuel, or any combination of the two, which can test what combination is present in the gas tank through oxygen content. And an entire infrastructure of gas stations that sell both biodiesel and fossil fuel (though the biodiesel is almost invariably cheaper.) Brazil is a decade or more ahead of us on that one because our "glorious opportunity-creating capitalism" is stifling forward progression on energy technology intentionally so that it can choke out more profit from the fossil fuel distribution industry.

This is related to something Thomas Jefferson understood well: giant corporations tend to inhibit progress.

[Kulindahr]

Actually, the entire thread is liberals bashing white Americans.

Only in racist dreams.

What's truly amusing is how people have actually spoken of American strengths, and you claim they're insulting America.

[CowboyBob]

Now you're back to racism -- at its most raw. Your position reeks of a belief that different skin colors indicate intelligence and creativity.

This here. I'm so fucking sick of Benvolio's racist rants and lies....everyone is. He fills the forum with his twisted view of the world and gets away with it.

[Benvolio]

Now you're back to racism -- at its most raw. Your position reeks of a belief that different skin colors indicate intelligence and creativity.

Hispanic is not a race.

[Rolyo85]

Hispanic is not a race.

And yet you use it in the context of "non-white". Racism isn't only about color, and frankly, xenophobia isn't any better anyway. But I LOVE, personally, that whenever you get slammed, you resort to random three-word irrelevancies.

[xbuzzerx]

Hispanic is not a race.

And yet you use it in the context of "non-white". Racism isn't only about color, and frankly, xenophobia isn't any better anyway. But I LOVE, personally, that whenever you get slammed, you resort to random three-word irrelevancies.

That. You've used it as a nonwhite group and demanded that GiancarloC provide instances of Latinos inventing anything or whatever else.

[Benvolio]

That. You've used it as a nonwhite group and demanded that GiancarloC provide instances of Latinos inventing anything or whatever else.

Hispanic is a culture, not a race. Giancarlo has elsewhere bragged that Hispanics will soon have a majority in the US, and has said they are not assimulating. It is legitimate to ask him what kind of economy such a country will have, and how innovative it will be.

[xbuzzerx]

Hispanic is a culture, not a race. Giancarlo has elsewhere bragged that Hispanics will soon have a majority in the US, and has said they are not assimulating. It is legitimate to ask him what kind of economy such a country will have, and how innovative it will be.

You're the only one who has maintained a position that innovation is a function of racial composition. And it's a position you've only incredibly poorly supported, by limiting view of history only to a period of time that favors one group and dismisses the much longer periods of dominance by other groups, and you also conveniently write off America's ongoing relative decline in the world, much of it happening in comparison to more wholly non-white societies, as being to blame on America letting too many nonwhites in.

So your position makes no sense, has never made sense, and has never been supported other than by extremely arbitrary and selective examination of any possible evidence.

[Benvolio]

I have never said that innovation is a function of race. I have said time and again, it is not race, but culture. It came up here because the assertion was made that whites have had an advantage in America. I responded that the reason was that they have been the ones who invented, started companies etc. But I said it is a function of culture. Everyone has a culture, including white Americans. Color is a marker for that culture.

[xbuzzerx]

I have never said that innovation is a function of race. I have said time and again, it is not race, but culture. It came up here because the assertion was made that whites have had an advantage in America. I responded that the reason was that they have been the ones who invented, started companies etc. But I said it is a function of culture. Everyone has a culture, including white Americans. Color is a marker for that culture.

Oh is it? So Americans are all white?

[Benvolio]

What you overlook, is that any advantage white males have enjoyed arose from the fact that they invented the invention, they started the industries, they started the companies, created the jobs, and for the most part still do. Hispanics could have invented the electric light but they did not, Africans could have developed the automobile, but they did not, Indians could have developed the computer, etc. Having built the companies is it any surprise that they occupy the leadership, executive and managerial positions? No, it is not race, it is culture.

As you see, I specifically said it is culture,not race.

[xbuzzerx]

As you see, I specifically said it is culture,not race.

You've repeatedly made the argument that it's "culture" when many of us have pointed out, in fairly great detail, how European culture never gave it any kind of exclusive claim over innovation or technology, and how the events of historical happenstance set the stage for Europe to take the lead fairly recently in world history, primarily based off a confluence of knowledge and inventions that originated elsewhere.

There is absolutely no relevant point being made whatsoever in saying "look at who invented the lightbulb" if it's in the context of "but please disregard who invented gunpowder."

Also, Benvolio, the substitution of "culture" for "race" has been happening in racist discourse since the discreditation of formal biological racism after the end of WWII and the post-colonial era. You aren't onto any great new idea here. The slipping in of 'their CULTURE makes them predisposed to servitude, poverty or lower accomplishments" instead of "their race" has been going on since the 40's, while precisely the same arguments are made that go back to at least 1492. I don't know why you keep reiterating that you're talking about culture as if you're on some new enlightened discourse and not the tired old veiled race discourse that's been around for centuries.

[CowboyBob]

As you see, I specifically said it is culture,not race.

Stop trying to talk your way out of this.

Everyone here sees you for what you are and it's not pleasant. You're always ragging on about the superiority of the white race and american exceptionalism. You're living proof the white race is definitely not superior.

Go to stormfront and discuss your views with the likeminded.

This thread has run it's course. It's now become a blog for Benvolio's racist rants.

[Rolyo85]

So it's not about race, it's about culture, but... this culture is defined by its non-whiteness... So how is it not about race again?

[GiancarloC]

Hispanic is a culture, not a race. Giancarlo has elsewhere bragged that Hispanics will soon have a majority in the US, and has said they are not assimulating. It is legitimate to ask him what kind of economy such a country will have, and how innovative it will be.

Bullsh*t. I can speak for myself. And yes, they will be a majority by 2040. They will bring their own culture, and rather the "culture" and identity of America will change with it. Innovative it will be? Those coming can be just as innovative... lets increase educational funding and not cut it back. Of course republicans want the sequester to happen so teachers can be fired... it'll create more idiots and thus voters for the GOP.

- - - Updated - - -

I have never said that innovation is a function of race. I have said time and again, it is not race, but culture. It came up here because the assertion was made that whites have had an advantage in America. I responded that the reason was that they have been the ones who invented, started companies etc. But I said it is a function of culture. Everyone has a culture, including white Americans. Color is a marker for that culture.

Keep spewing the outright falsehoods. Most recent inventions weren't by white Americans, or whites in general. So get a grip please... people are tired of hearing the same old racist and xenophobic bullshit on this forum. By the way many companies in America were started by Italians and they are NOT white. Especially the ones that came to America from Southern Italy. And the xenophobic idiotic claims against Hispanics need to end. There are many scientists and innovators in Brazil, Argentina and other countries.

Whites aren't the best in the world. Deal with it.

[Rolyo85]

Btw, one thing Giancarlo's particular culture has done, was to be a major factor in the creation of the USA

[FuryOfFirestorm]

I'm just waiting for the inevitable Holocaust denial thread from dear old Benny.

[Rolyo85]

What Holocaust? White blond people never did no wrong!

[xbuzzerx]

What Holocaust? White blond people never did no wrong!

Um, white culture. We're totally not talking about race here. Catch up.

[Rolyo85]

White blond culture, sorry...

[Benvolio]

The danger is that by refusing to see how important culture is to prosperity and progress, you will impair the aspects of the culture which lead to innovation and creation. Some cultures are more able to innovate than others, and that is the an important part of the explanation of why some countries and cultures are more prosperous than others. Economies which rely upon manufacturing products copied from those who innovated them will never be first world economies.

[Rolyo85]

The danger is that by refusing to see how important culture is to prosperity and progress, you will impair the aspects of the culture which lead to innovation and creation. Some cultures are more able to innovate than others, and that is the an important part of the explanation of why some countries and cultures are more prosperous than others. Economies which rely upon manufacturing products copied from those who innovated them will never be first world economies.

By that description, America will never be a first world economy o.o

[xbuzzerx]

The danger is that by refusing to see how important culture is to prosperity and progress, you will impair the aspects of the culture which lead to innovation and creation. Some cultures are more able to innovate than others, and that is the an important part of the explanation of why some countries and cultures are more prosperous than others. Economies which rely upon manufacturing products copied from those who innovated them will never be first world economies.

Benvolio take an American entrepreneur who has a profitable business today and speaks only English.

Now picture the identical guy bilingual in both English and Spanish.

Please explain how the filthy tendrils of nonwhite culture have now subverted his ability to innovate or create opportunity.

[bankside]

I knew there was a question back there I'd missed while travelling…

How does a business generate profit, if its employees receive a value that is equal to their contribution?

The employee receives a value that is equal to his contribution, at the time he makes it. The employer's profit comes from finding a buyer for that good or service who is willing to pay more than the employer did. That is the employer's contribution, and where the employer creates value. The final price to the consumer covers the full value of the employee's contribution, and the full value of the employer's capital investment in providing tools and a workplace for the employee, and the full value of the employer's network and skill at finding customers. Thus, each party is paid only for what they put in.

Consider if the employee were to swipe $10 from the till: he would be charged with theft because he did nothing to earn that money. On the other hand, he earned every nickel of his paycheque (was about to say "every penny" but we've just eliminated those).

He earned every nickel of his paycheque by parting with something of exactly equal value: his own time and skill. It is up to the employer to resell that time and skill at a profit.

This is all by way of demolishing the myth that an employee should owe some kind of craven gratitude to an employer. It is sickening to see some twisted versions of capitalism presented in this thread that would treat employees like they should be grateful serfs on their master's estate. They earned their paycheques in full, and owe no special gratitude to the writer of the cheque.

[Rolyo85]

Benvolio take an American entrepreneur who has a profitable business today and speaks only English.

Now picture the identical guy bilingual in both English and Spanish.

Please explain how the filthy tendrils of nonwhite culture have now subverted his ability to innovate or create opportunity.

He's not gonna produce beautiful blond white children for one...

[Benvolio]

Benvolio take an American entrepreneur who has a profitable business today and speaks only English.

Now picture the identical guy bilingual in both English and Spanish.

Please explain how the filthy tendrils of nonwhite culture have now subverted his ability to innovate or create opportunity.

In your example, it would not.

[GiancarloC]

The danger is that by refusing to see how important culture is to prosperity and progress, you will impair the aspects of the culture which lead to innovation and creation. Some cultures are more able to innovate than others, and that is the an important part of the explanation of why some countries and cultures are more prosperous than others. Economies which rely upon manufacturing products copied from those who innovated them will never be first world economies.

Where is the substance to this racist and xenophobic argument? This is making the suggestion Hispanic cultures can't "innovate as much as white culture". This is a pile of crap. Brazil is a clear example of a country leading the way. Keep it up with the falsehoods though. Most countries that innovate aren't white.

[xbuzzerx]

In your example, it would not.

And my example is the reality of what immigrant blending has always created throughout all of American history, as Kulindahr has pointed out to you. America has always received immigrants, and has always received immigrants who didn't speak English or espoused different creeds or religions than the mainstream, and America has had periods in the past where a higher percentage of the overall population was foreign-born than today, and yet has failed to ever be subsumed into some "inferior" foreign culture.

Your entire position here is a constant going-forward fearmongering scenario that has never materialized in reality, ever, despite the U.S. having always had immigration and having always had non-white cultures and individuals present in its society, and other languages spoken, and other cultural habits observed. Always.

Your position is a joke. People 20, 30 years ago were saying exactly the same thing you are saying now, only they were saying we'd be ruined and a third world country by 2000, or by 2010. And people said it 50 years ago, and 100 years ago, and people said it about black people getting the right to vote, and people said it about allowing Japanese or Chinese into the country.

The argument is a joke, and you are a joke for espousing it.

[Benvolio]

Since your thinking is dominated by ad hominem attacks, you cannot be expected to understand, but I will try once again.
There are some big, big differences. We now have large scale unemployment and underemployment. We have foreign competition on most levels to an extent far exceeding what it was even a decade ago. People in India, for instance can and are hired for American jobs. We have lost much of the heavy industry which higher large numbers of the immigrants, we will lose more in the future, as companies like GM struggle.
In those olden days which you remember so fondly, the goal was assimilation, and a quota system strongly favored immigrants who would predictably assimilate. E Pluribus Unum. That system was changed in 1965, and again 1990 immigration now comes largely from third world countries with no culture of democracy, individual reliance and economic freedom. The rules of the forum do not allow me more specific in this forum.
Why is it that some countries are more affluent than others? Why do immigrants want to come here by the millions. Why have their own countries failed to provide the opportunities they think they will find here--and did find at one time. Being liberals, you detest the thought that America has anything better than other countries.
We now have more than half the country paying no Federal income taxes. Almost half receiving some form of welfare. Worse, they vote for higher taxes on others to pay for more welfare for themselves. In those olden days for which you yearn, immigrants did not come here expecting welfare and wanting socialism.
More importantly, as a result, our government has changed from one which allows economic freedom to one which wants to regulate more and more of the details of business; a government which is hostile to entrepreneurship, innovation and individual initiative. Clearly in the area of business, the government is more authoritarian, and it can only stifle innovation.

[rareboy]

Oh for Fuck's Sake.

[xbuzzerx]

Oh for Fuck's Sake.

I'm with you at this point.

Not only are we dealing with Euro Exceptionalism and American Exceptionalism but we're also apparently dealing with Now Exceptionalism. America's never had economic problems before! Or unemployment, or recessions, or anything else.

Oh yeah-- and the government is stifling innovation. The government forced oil industries to murder the electric car and choke biodiesel and alternative energy systems while choking out huge profits from an unsustainable energy source.

[bankside]

There is no such thing as an "American Job." There is just work to be done in an international free market.

And immigration to the US is nothing magical; Canada, Australia, Europe, all prime destinations for immigrants.

For those parties to this thread willing to remove their heads from Uncle Sam's arse for just a moment, you'd then realise that we're all important trading partners with shared interest in prosperity.
We all need open, rules-based trade.
We would be right to insist on equal environmental responsibility both as import consumers and as exporters in search of an even playing field. If china wants to rape the environment to make cheap goods, I have no problem setting up import tariffs equal to the cost of the environmental destruction. Or for example if consumers had to pay a carbon tax, they would change their buying habits to purchases from developed countries with better environmental records, and developing countries would finally have an incentive to clean up their act.

But this is all about the existing mechanisms of international trade and existing processes for fixing them. We need to use them and commit to them. This isolationist alternative and sticking your head in the sand is just the fast lane to mediocrity and irrelevance for any developed country that tries it. It's the worst of failed 1970's third-world "substitution economics."

Trade is here to stay. So instead of whining about "American Jobs," recognise that global prosperity depends on the advantages of trade, and that local prosperity depends on global prosperity.

[GiancarloC]

Since your thinking is dominated by ad hominem attacks, you cannot be expected to understand, but I will try once again.
There are some big, big differences. We now have large scale unemployment and underemployment. We have foreign competition on most levels to an extent far exceeding what it was even a decade ago. People in India, for instance can and are hired for American jobs. We have lost much of the heavy industry which higher large numbers of the immigrants, we will lose more in the future, as companies like GM struggle.
In those olden days which you remember so fondly, the goal was assimilation, and a quota system strongly favored immigrants who would predictably assimilate. E Pluribus Unum. That system was changed in 1965, and again 1990 immigration now comes largely from third world countries with no culture of democracy, individual reliance and economic freedom. The rules of the forum do not allow me more specific in this forum.
Why is it that some countries are more affluent than others? Why do immigrants want to come here by the millions. Why have their own countries failed to provide the opportunities they think they will find here--and did find at one time. Being liberals, you detest the thought that America has anything better than other countries.
We now have more than half the country paying no Federal income taxes. Almost half receiving some form of welfare. Worse, they vote for higher taxes on others to pay for more welfare for themselves. In those olden days for which you yearn, immigrants did not come here expecting welfare and wanting socialism.
More importantly, as a result, our government has changed from one which allows economic freedom to one which wants to regulate more and more of the details of business; a government which is hostile to entrepreneurship, innovation and individual initiative. Clearly in the area of business, the government is more authoritarian, and it can only stifle innovation.

Where is the FUCKING PROOF? Oh as usual more of the same Aryan nation Stormfront propaganda... not one shred of evidence, and not one shred of proof. Just more of the same old empty silly claims with ZERO proof. And as far as unemployment and underemployment, people can only look at those who got us in that predicament. Republicans and their rich mostly white supporters... who bankrolled the last republican campaign? Several people, including the Koch Brothers. Stop blaming immigrants and dark people for the fuck ups of rich white people. And this government is hostile to innovation and entrepreneurship? OH cry me a fucking river. How so?

There needs to be regulations... this isn't the 19th century. And assimilation was never a goal... so stop with this assimilation crap please.

[Rolyo85]

But you ignore the fact that there are now brown people in America who aren't white! And they have jobs! And not just shoe polishing either! SOME OF THEM ARE WELL PAID!

America is doomed...

[xbuzzerx]

But you ignore the fact that there are now brown people in America who aren't white! And they have jobs! And not just shoe polishing either! SOME OF THEM ARE WELL PAID!

America is doomed...

What gets me is that the one demographic that probably competes on relatively equal ground for desired jobs and income brackets are probably Asian Americans, and my guess? Benvolio doesn't feel they're going to undermine and subvert America. Despite coming from an even more foreign culture than any European-extracted ex-colonial culture on our border, and who came here speaking a far more foreign language, with little to no Christian influence in their cultures.

[Rolyo85]

Well, you fail to understand that they aren't brown.

[rareboy]

Exactly.

While they were good enough to build the railways in the US and then to throw into internment camps during WWII and recently, to own Quicky Marts...to the Benvolios of the world, they are essentially invisible...because they aren't brown and don't speak Spanish.

But everything that Benvolio is whining and wailing about has all been said before about every immigrant group that came to America, including, as I have pointed out to him again and again...the Germans, the Alsations, the Ukranians, the Italians, the Irish and any other group of people who came to America.

But if everyone hasn't come to the realization that you are talking to someone with the same capacity to understand as David Duke...you are wasting your time here.

Benvolio only goes away after every salve and reads up again on why the brown menace will destroy white America and then comes back to repeat the very same points he made on the first page.

Everyone in this thread has been standing still for about 6 pages.