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  1. #301
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Hispanic is a culture, not a race. Giancarlo has elsewhere bragged that Hispanics will soon have a majority in the US, and has said they are not assimulating. It is legitimate to ask him what kind of economy such a country will have, and how innovative it will be.
    You're the only one who has maintained a position that innovation is a function of racial composition. And it's a position you've only incredibly poorly supported, by limiting view of history only to a period of time that favors one group and dismisses the much longer periods of dominance by other groups, and you also conveniently write off America's ongoing relative decline in the world, much of it happening in comparison to more wholly non-white societies, as being to blame on America letting too many nonwhites in.

    So your position makes no sense, has never made sense, and has never been supported other than by extremely arbitrary and selective examination of any possible evidence.

  2. #302

    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    I have never said that innovation is a function of race. I have said time and again, it is not race, but culture. It came up here because the assertion was made that whites have had an advantage in America. I responded that the reason was that they have been the ones who invented, started companies etc. But I said it is a function of culture. Everyone has a culture, including white Americans. Color is a marker for that culture.

  3. #303
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    I have never said that innovation is a function of race. I have said time and again, it is not race, but culture. It came up here because the assertion was made that whites have had an advantage in America. I responded that the reason was that they have been the ones who invented, started companies etc. But I said it is a function of culture. Everyone has a culture, including white Americans. Color is a marker for that culture.
    Oh is it? So Americans are all white?

  4. #304

    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    What you overlook, is that any advantage white males have enjoyed arose from the fact that they invented the invention, they started the industries, they started the companies, created the jobs, and for the most part still do. Hispanics could have invented the electric light but they did not, Africans could have developed the automobile, but they did not, Indians could have developed the computer, etc. Having built the companies is it any surprise that they occupy the leadership, executive and managerial positions? No, it is not race, it is culture.
    As you see, I specifically said it is culture,not race.

  5. #305
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    As you see, I specifically said it is culture,not race.
    You've repeatedly made the argument that it's "culture" when many of us have pointed out, in fairly great detail, how European culture never gave it any kind of exclusive claim over innovation or technology, and how the events of historical happenstance set the stage for Europe to take the lead fairly recently in world history, primarily based off a confluence of knowledge and inventions that originated elsewhere.

    There is absolutely no relevant point being made whatsoever in saying "look at who invented the lightbulb" if it's in the context of "but please disregard who invented gunpowder."

    Also, Benvolio, the substitution of "culture" for "race" has been happening in racist discourse since the discreditation of formal biological racism after the end of WWII and the post-colonial era. You aren't onto any great new idea here. The slipping in of 'their CULTURE makes them predisposed to servitude, poverty or lower accomplishments" instead of "their race" has been going on since the 40's, while precisely the same arguments are made that go back to at least 1492. I don't know why you keep reiterating that you're talking about culture as if you're on some new enlightened discourse and not the tired old veiled race discourse that's been around for centuries.
    Last edited by xbuzzerx; February 28th, 2013 at 11:36 AM.

  6. #306

    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    As you see, I specifically said it is culture,not race.
    Stop trying to talk your way out of this.

    Everyone here sees you for what you are and it's not pleasant. You're always ragging on about the superiority of the white race and american exceptionalism. You're living proof the white race is definitely not superior.

    Go to stormfront and discuss your views with the likeminded.

    This thread has run it's course. It's now become a blog for Benvolio's racist rants.
    Last edited by CowboyBob; February 28th, 2013 at 11:47 AM.

  7. #307
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    So it's not about race, it's about culture, but... this culture is defined by its non-whiteness... So how is it not about race again?
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  8. #308
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Btw, one thing Giancarlo's particular culture has done, was to be a major factor in the creation of the USA
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  9. #309
    Suck my dick, Scalia! FuryOfFirestorm's Avatar
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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    I'm just waiting for the inevitable Holocaust denial thread from dear old Benny.

  10. #310
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    What Holocaust? White blond people never did no wrong!
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  11. #311
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    What Holocaust? White blond people never did no wrong!
    Um, white culture. We're totally not talking about race here. Catch up.

  12. #312
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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    White blond culture, sorry...
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  13. #313

    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    The danger is that by refusing to see how important culture is to prosperity and progress, you will impair the aspects of the culture which lead to innovation and creation. Some cultures are more able to innovate than others, and that is the an important part of the explanation of why some countries and cultures are more prosperous than others. Economies which rely upon manufacturing products copied from those who innovated them will never be first world economies.

  14. #314
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    The danger is that by refusing to see how important culture is to prosperity and progress, you will impair the aspects of the culture which lead to innovation and creation. Some cultures are more able to innovate than others, and that is the an important part of the explanation of why some countries and cultures are more prosperous than others. Economies which rely upon manufacturing products copied from those who innovated them will never be first world economies.
    By that description, America will never be a first world economy o.o
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  15. #315
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    The danger is that by refusing to see how important culture is to prosperity and progress, you will impair the aspects of the culture which lead to innovation and creation. Some cultures are more able to innovate than others, and that is the an important part of the explanation of why some countries and cultures are more prosperous than others. Economies which rely upon manufacturing products copied from those who innovated them will never be first world economies.
    Benvolio take an American entrepreneur who has a profitable business today and speaks only English.

    Now picture the identical guy bilingual in both English and Spanish.

    Please explain how the filthy tendrils of nonwhite culture have now subverted his ability to innovate or create opportunity.

  16. #316
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    I knew there was a question back there I'd missed while travelling…
    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    How does a business generate profit, if its employees receive a value that is equal to their contribution?
    The employee receives a value that is equal to his contribution, at the time he makes it. The employer's profit comes from finding a buyer for that good or service who is willing to pay more than the employer did. That is the employer's contribution, and where the employer creates value. The final price to the consumer covers the full value of the employee's contribution, and the full value of the employer's capital investment in providing tools and a workplace for the employee, and the full value of the employer's network and skill at finding customers. Thus, each party is paid only for what they put in.

    Consider if the employee were to swipe $10 from the till: he would be charged with theft because he did nothing to earn that money. On the other hand, he earned every nickel of his paycheque (was about to say "every penny" but we've just eliminated those).

    He earned every nickel of his paycheque by parting with something of exactly equal value: his own time and skill. It is up to the employer to resell that time and skill at a profit.

    This is all by way of demolishing the myth that an employee should owe some kind of craven gratitude to an employer. It is sickening to see some twisted versions of capitalism presented in this thread that would treat employees like they should be grateful serfs on their master's estate. They earned their paycheques in full, and owe no special gratitude to the writer of the cheque.

  17. #317
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Benvolio take an American entrepreneur who has a profitable business today and speaks only English.

    Now picture the identical guy bilingual in both English and Spanish.

    Please explain how the filthy tendrils of nonwhite culture have now subverted his ability to innovate or create opportunity.
    He's not gonna produce beautiful blond white children for one...
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  18. #318

    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Benvolio take an American entrepreneur who has a profitable business today and speaks only English.

    Now picture the identical guy bilingual in both English and Spanish.

    Please explain how the filthy tendrils of nonwhite culture have now subverted his ability to innovate or create opportunity.
    In your example, it would not.

  19. #319
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    In your example, it would not.
    And my example is the reality of what immigrant blending has always created throughout all of American history, as Kulindahr has pointed out to you. America has always received immigrants, and has always received immigrants who didn't speak English or espoused different creeds or religions than the mainstream, and America has had periods in the past where a higher percentage of the overall population was foreign-born than today, and yet has failed to ever be subsumed into some "inferior" foreign culture.

    Your entire position here is a constant going-forward fearmongering scenario that has never materialized in reality, ever, despite the U.S. having always had immigration and having always had non-white cultures and individuals present in its society, and other languages spoken, and other cultural habits observed. Always.

    Your position is a joke. People 20, 30 years ago were saying exactly the same thing you are saying now, only they were saying we'd be ruined and a third world country by 2000, or by 2010. And people said it 50 years ago, and 100 years ago, and people said it about black people getting the right to vote, and people said it about allowing Japanese or Chinese into the country.

    The argument is a joke, and you are a joke for espousing it.

  20. #320

    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Since your thinking is dominated by ad hominem attacks, you cannot be expected to understand, but I will try once again.
    There are some big, big differences. We now have large scale unemployment and underemployment. We have foreign competition on most levels to an extent far exceeding what it was even a decade ago. People in India, for instance can and are hired for American jobs. We have lost much of the heavy industry which higher large numbers of the immigrants, we will lose more in the future, as companies like GM struggle.
    In those olden days which you remember so fondly, the goal was assimilation, and a quota system strongly favored immigrants who would predictably assimilate. E Pluribus Unum. That system was changed in 1965, and again 1990 immigration now comes largely from third world countries with no culture of democracy, individual reliance and economic freedom. The rules of the forum do not allow me more specific in this forum.
    Why is it that some countries are more affluent than others? Why do immigrants want to come here by the millions. Why have their own countries failed to provide the opportunities they think they will find here--and did find at one time. Being liberals, you detest the thought that America has anything better than other countries.
    We now have more than half the country paying no Federal income taxes. Almost half receiving some form of welfare. Worse, they vote for higher taxes on others to pay for more welfare for themselves. In those olden days for which you yearn, immigrants did not come here expecting welfare and wanting socialism.
    More importantly, as a result, our government has changed from one which allows economic freedom to one which wants to regulate more and more of the details of business; a government which is hostile to entrepreneurship, innovation and individual initiative. Clearly in the area of business, the government is more authoritarian, and it can only stifle innovation.

  21. #321
    stop the bullshit rareboy's Avatar
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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Oh for Fuck's Sake.

  22. #322
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    Oh for Fuck's Sake.
    I'm with you at this point.

    Not only are we dealing with Euro Exceptionalism and American Exceptionalism but we're also apparently dealing with Now Exceptionalism. America's never had economic problems before! Or unemployment, or recessions, or anything else.

    Oh yeah-- and the government is stifling innovation. The government forced oil industries to murder the electric car and choke biodiesel and alternative energy systems while choking out huge profits from an unsustainable energy source.

  23. #323
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    There is no such thing as an "American Job." There is just work to be done in an international free market.

    And immigration to the US is nothing magical; Canada, Australia, Europe, all prime destinations for immigrants.

    For those parties to this thread willing to remove their heads from Uncle Sam's arse for just a moment, you'd then realise that we're all important trading partners with shared interest in prosperity.
    We all need open, rules-based trade.
    We would be right to insist on equal environmental responsibility both as import consumers and as exporters in search of an even playing field. If china wants to rape the environment to make cheap goods, I have no problem setting up import tariffs equal to the cost of the environmental destruction. Or for example if consumers had to pay a carbon tax, they would change their buying habits to purchases from developed countries with better environmental records, and developing countries would finally have an incentive to clean up their act.

    But this is all about the existing mechanisms of international trade and existing processes for fixing them. We need to use them and commit to them. This isolationist alternative and sticking your head in the sand is just the fast lane to mediocrity and irrelevance for any developed country that tries it. It's the worst of failed 1970's third-world "substitution economics."

    Trade is here to stay. So instead of whining about "American Jobs," recognise that global prosperity depends on the advantages of trade, and that local prosperity depends on global prosperity.

  24. #324
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    But you ignore the fact that there are now brown people in America who aren't white! And they have jobs! And not just shoe polishing either! SOME OF THEM ARE WELL PAID!

    America is doomed...
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  25. #325
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    But you ignore the fact that there are now brown people in America who aren't white! And they have jobs! And not just shoe polishing either! SOME OF THEM ARE WELL PAID!

    America is doomed...
    What gets me is that the one demographic that probably competes on relatively equal ground for desired jobs and income brackets are probably Asian Americans, and my guess? Benvolio doesn't feel they're going to undermine and subvert America. Despite coming from an even more foreign culture than any European-extracted ex-colonial culture on our border, and who came here speaking a far more foreign language, with little to no Christian influence in their cultures.

  26. #326
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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Well, you fail to understand that they aren't brown.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  27. #327
    stop the bullshit rareboy's Avatar
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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Exactly.

    While they were good enough to build the railways in the US and then to throw into internment camps during WWII and recently, to own Quicky Marts...to the Benvolios of the world, they are essentially invisible...because they aren't brown and don't speak Spanish.

    But everything that Benvolio is whining and wailing about has all been said before about every immigrant group that came to America, including, as I have pointed out to him again and again...the Germans, the Alsations, the Ukranians, the Italians, the Irish and any other group of people who came to America.

    But if everyone hasn't come to the realization that you are talking to someone with the same capacity to understand as David Duke...you are wasting your time here.

    Benvolio only goes away after every salve and reads up again on why the brown menace will destroy white America and then comes back to repeat the very same points he made on the first page.

    Everyone in this thread has been standing still for about 6 pages.

  28. #328
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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    I have never said that innovation is a function of race. I have said time and again, it is not race, but culture. It came up here because the assertion was made that whites have had an advantage in America. I responded that the reason was that they have been the ones who invented, started companies etc. But I said it is a function of culture. Everyone has a culture, including white Americans. Color is a marker for that culture.
    "Color is a marker for that culture."

    The problem is that there is no such thing as "white culture" in the US. I've been to towns where it looked like Norway and people actually spoke Norwegian, and towns where it was the same with Germany and German, Ireland, Sweden....

    The real culture of the US that results in innovation and prosperity is the one that welcomes everyone who does anything well, and rewards it. Neither skin color nor language count; results do. That's why the Republican insistence that everyone who isn't white but got an education here has to go "back home", regardless of whether they're set to start a business that will employ a hundred people or more, even regardless of whether they even have another home than America, is not merely foolish and inhumane, but anti-liberty, anti-excellence, and thus anti-American.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  29. #329
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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    The danger is that by refusing to see how important culture is to prosperity and progress, you will impair the aspects of the culture which lead to innovation and creation. Some cultures are more able to innovate than others, and that is the an important part of the explanation of why some countries and cultures are more prosperous than others. Economies which rely upon manufacturing products copied from those who innovated them will never be first world economies.
    Hypocrisy here. You state a proposition that is undeniably true, but then define culture by race, thus ignoring the reality of the culture you're describing.

    The success culture of America has nothing to do with race. It has to do with welcoming new ideas and new ways of doing things. In truth, for a generation after World War II, the culture you regard as "white" thrived better in Japan than in the United States, while a culture of the same arrogance you present shackled America, and even today holds it back from progress. More recently it has thrived better in South Korea.

    The culture of success is, to borrow from Ronald Reagan, the culture of excellence, of innovation, of striving to do things better and to find new things to do better.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  30. #330
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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Benvolio take an American entrepreneur who has a profitable business today and speaks only English.

    Now picture the identical guy bilingual in both English and Spanish.

    Please explain how the filthy tendrils of nonwhite culture have now subverted his ability to innovate or create opportunity.
    For that matter, picture businesses started by immigrants from India, Turkey, and Indonesia, who speak English only poorly, but have built businesses here which are bringing stiff competition to long-standing "white" businesses here. Think of similar owners holding their businesses steady through the economic malaise our "white" banker culture bestowed on us, while "white" businesses struggle and/or fail. That's going on all over the country -- and in each case, it's the immigrant who is more representative of American culture than the others.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  31. #331
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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    I knew there was a question back there I'd missed while travelling…

    The employee receives a value that is equal to his contribution, at the time he makes it. The employer's profit comes from finding a buyer for that good or service who is willing to pay more than the employer did. That is the employer's contribution, and where the employer creates value. The final price to the consumer covers the full value of the employee's contribution, and the full value of the employer's capital investment in providing tools and a workplace for the employee, and the full value of the employer's network and skill at finding customers. Thus, each party is paid only for what they put in.

    Consider if the employee were to swipe $10 from the till: he would be charged with theft because he did nothing to earn that money. On the other hand, he earned every nickel of his paycheque (was about to say "every penny" but we've just eliminated those).

    He earned every nickel of his paycheque by parting with something of exactly equal value: his own time and skill. It is up to the employer to resell that time and skill at a profit.

    This is all by way of demolishing the myth that an employee should owe some kind of craven gratitude to an employer. It is sickening to see some twisted versions of capitalism presented in this thread that would treat employees like they should be grateful serfs on their master's estate. They earned their paycheques in full, and owe no special gratitude to the writer of the cheque.
    What a blissfully pleasant view of the process!

    In reality, the employer tends to pay no more than he can get away with, as much less than the actual value of the work the employee does as he can manage.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  32. #332
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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    We now have more than half the country paying no Federal income taxes.
    How is this a negative?!?

    At root, taxation of income is theft. We should be proud that the federal government manages to not steal that way from half the population, and set our sights on raising it to three-fifths.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  33. #333
    Bammer's Papa
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    Code of Conduct

    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    We would be right to insist on equal environmental responsibility both as import consumers and as exporters in search of an even playing field. If china wants to rape the environment to make cheap goods, I have no problem setting up import tariffs equal to the cost of the environmental destruction.
    That would merely be keeping the economics honest.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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