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  1. #201

    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by FuryOfFirestorm View Post
    OMG, I'M PSYCHIC! Someone moved the goalposts! And with a citation from a radical right-wing opinion site affiliated with The John Birch Society! You didn't need precognition to see that one coming!
    No, but on a subliminal level you realized the the figures were phoney. How could it be the this president who has made a major part of his strategy the pandering to Hispanics, and rushing illegals to voter status, would actually deport more? The pretended deportation statistic is inconsistent with everything we know about your President. You are more intuitive than you realized.

  2. #202
    Suck my dick, Scalia! FuryOfFirestorm's Avatar
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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    No, but on a subliminal level you realized the the figures were phoney. How could it be the this president who has made a major part of his strategy the pandering to Hispanics, and rushing illegals to voter status, would actually deport more? The pretended deportation statistic is inconsistent with everything we know about your President. You are more intuitive than you realized.
    Did you not read the article I posted, or did you spend all this time working on that "clever" retort?

    According to current figures from Immigration and Customs Enforcement -- the federal agency responsible for deportations -- Obama has removed 1.4 million people during his 42 months in office so far.

    There's a reason the site is called POLIFACT, not MADE-UP BULLSHIT REPUBLICANS PULLED OUT THEIR ASS

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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by FuryOfFirestorm View Post
    Did you not read the article I posted, or did you spend all this time working on that "clever" retort?

    According to current figures from Immigration and Customs Enforcement -- the federal agency responsible for deportations -- Obama has removed 1.4 million people during his 42 months in office so far.

    There's a reason the site is called POLIFACT, not MADE-UP BULLSHIT REPUBLICANS PULLED OUT THEIR ASS
    The truth has a liberal bias. :/ Sad.

  4. #204

    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    The truth has a liberal bias. :/ Sad.
    At issue is the definition of remove. If you stop someone at the border, BO counts him as"removed".

  5. #205
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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    At issue is the definition of remove. If you stop someone at the border, BO counts him as "removed".
    Perhaps you'd like to show any proof* of this?

    Because obviously, Obama is standing at the US/Mexican border, stopping every immigrant, marking them as "returned" on his checklist, then hands them a voter registration card, food stamps and keys to a Cadillac Escalade and says, "Vote Democrat!".

    *proof: facts or data that backs up the veracity of an argument or statement.

  6. #206
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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    BTW: claiming that Obama changed the meaning of removed isn't just moving the goalposts....it's burying them in the Marrianas Trench.

  7. #207

    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by FuryOfFirestorm View Post
    BTW: claiming that Obama changed the meaning of removed isn't just moving the goalposts....it's burying them in the Marrianas Trench.
    Go back to post 210 and read the link re the House Judiciary Commitee.

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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    What must I do to get your attention, guys?

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    Gentlemen, please dispense with the personal innuendo.

  9. #209
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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Spoilsport -_-


    Anyway, I present TO EVERYONE the following question: If we assume that indeed there is no way to have balance (at least for now), but only one preference or the other - white or non-white - is it then morally wrong to pass the ball to the non-white job seekers for a while, since they have been on the short end of the stick for so long?

    Discuss.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  10. #210

    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Spoilsport -_-


    Anyway, I present TO EVERYONE the following question: If we assume that indeed there is no way to have balance (at least for now), but only one preference or the other - white or non-white - is it then morally wrong to pass the ball to the non-white job seekers for a while, since they have been on the short end of the stick for so long?

    Discuss.
    The anti discrimination laws have been in place, beginning with the first Civil rights acts in 1964. Governmental and many private affirmative action programs have bee around for decades. All created mostly by white males. Immigrants have flooded to the U S by the millions because of job availability. So your assumption that non whites are on the short end of the stick is a false assumption. Raw numbers can not prove that any residual differences are not the result of differences in geography, education, ability and experience.
    The Constitution prohibits the Federal and State government from denying the equal protection of the law. So, any statutory affirmative action scheme is in direct violation of that provision.
    If you tell employers that all jobs must be filled by minority members without regard to the persons best qualified, it will have a decided chilling effect on business expansion. Why not send the jobs overseas?
    Last edited by Benvolio; February 21st, 2013 at 02:48 PM.

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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    So what you're saying is, non-whites are not discriminated against and there's no proof that they are?
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    The anti discrimination laws have been in place, beginning with the first Civil rights acts in 1964. Governmental and many private affirmative action programs have bee around for decades. All created mostly by white males. Immigrants have flooded to the U S by the millions because of job availability. So your assumption that non whites are on the short end of the stick is a false assumption. Raw numbers can not prove that any residual differences are not the result of differences in geography, education, ability and experience.
    The Constitution prohibits the Federal and State government from denying the equal protection of the law. So, any statutory affirmative action scheme is in direct violation of that provision.
    If you tell employers that all jobs must be filled by minority members without regard to the persons best qualified, it will have a decided chilling effect on business expansion. Why not send the jobs overseas?
    What you are consistenly refusing to acknowledge is that equal protection under the law does and should cover fostering fair workplace hiring of people other than white males in a workforce which still, to this day, has failed to show complete equality, particularly the higher up in a given industry you go.

    If you can't show that white men have somehow fallen down into a discriminated caste and get hired less often, paid less or whatever else than other demographics or similar qualification these laws are meant to to help achieve fair inclusion for, you have absolutely no case here.

  13. #213

    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    So what you're saying is, non-whites are not discriminated against and there's no proof that they are?
    Whites and non whites are discriminated against. Affirmative action discriminates against both. Minorities blatantly discriminate. What Mexican restaurant does not prefer Mexican employees? Indians for Indian? Asian for Asian?
    Numerous valid employment charactistics do not show up in figures. Blacks and Hispanics tend to be less well educated, less well experienced. Minorities have their own cultures an standards of appearance. Restaurants may be unwilling to hire people with dreadlocks or excess facial hair. Many have language difficulties.
    Businesses do not exist to provide jobs. They exist to make money. Employers hire the people they think will serve their business best, and with the least supervision.
    Liberals could not care less about the business, it's needs or profits.
    So, sure, some unjustified discrimination exists. BUT far less exists than liberals are eager to believe. Because liberals are dismissive of the needs and concerns of business they see discrimination where businessmen see valid differences.
    Then there is the serious problem created by the anti discrimination laws themselves. They give minorities the right and incentive to sue or threat to sue,if things do not go their way. This, in and of itself makes them less desirable as employees.
    Liberals, being, anti business and dismissive of the needs of the business, and, as always, thinking in absolutes, can only see discrimination.
    Last edited by Benvolio; February 21st, 2013 at 04:19 PM.

  14. #214
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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    What Mexican restaurant does not prefer Mexican employees?
    Taco Bell.

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Liberals could not care less

    liberals are

    Liberals … can only see
    It seems that you’ve invested a great deal of your energy attempting to express the Liberal opinion – though I think your conclusions may be somewhat mistaken. At any rate, it might be interesting (if you can find the time) to try and figure out what people of the minority political persuasion think about these matters and then share those opinions here as well.

  15. #215

    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    The "minority political persuasion" would appear to be the Republicans at the moment. I think I represent that point of view, and frequently provide links. It invariably provokes an explosion of screeches about the hated "right wing sources". Liberals are 100 % intolerant of adverse opinions, as this forum abundantly proves.
    Last edited by Benvolio; February 21st, 2013 at 05:30 PM.

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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    The "minority political persuasion" would appear to be the Republicans at the moment. I think I represent that point of view, and frequently provide links.
    Cool. According to your own perception, how do Republicans relate to matters of equal employment opportunity and the various manifestations of affirmative action?

    (No links necessary. I’m just interested in your impressions.)

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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    I cannot agree openterp. Affirmative action is inherently unfair. Unfair to the employer prevented from hiring the best available person, and unfair to the people pushed aside on the basis of irrelevant factors, i.e. race, color, national origin etc. Nor is the hiring of recent immigrants over existing citizens, fair. But many believe that AA is fair, ostensibly, as redressing past wrong or something. If that is fair, then the maximum fairness the maximum inclusion of women and minorities, and the maximum exclusion of white males.
    One of the challenges I’m experiencing with your posts is understanding whether your references to “affirmative action” are limited to government recruitment policies for its own personnel, policies that are voluntarily adopted by private industry (or other private organizations), or perhaps punitive enforcement against private firms that have demonstrated a clear pattern of discrimination and are required to adopt policies or programs that are intended to correct that error.

  18. #218

    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    Cool. According to your own perception, how do Republicans relate to matters of equal employment opportunity and the various manifestations of affirmative action?

    (No links necessary. I’m just interested in your impressions.)
    See my post 240 below. Republicans overwhelmingly believe in free enterprise capitalism. Historically nothing is more important. Business should be free to hire the best qualified people. You, as a liberal, think that means pro white, but you would the surprised at the number of corporate heads who are non white or foreign born.
    Affirmative action requires hiring without regard to the best qualifications. Bad for the business, bad for the economy.
    Increasingly the Republicans are the party of whites. Democrats the party of minorities. It has been true since 1865, but it increases. The invariable result is that Democrat legislation is anti white and pro minority. Liberals think it is justified by past discrimination and fail to see how it is motivated by partisan
    politics.
    Last edited by opinterph; February 21st, 2013 at 06:34 PM. Reason: fixed quote tags

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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    See my post 240 below.
    Just a heads-up to everyone. Citing post numbers is probably not a great idea – because the post numbers change whenever a post is removed from the lineup.

    For example, I’ve identified more than two-dozen posts to remove from this thread I have removed 27 posts from this thread. Other posts were removed previously and other changes are possible going forward. It is always best to quote the referenced post, rather than name its current sequence number.
    Last edited by opinterph; February 22nd, 2013 at 08:38 PM. Reason: updated

  20. #220

    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    One of the challenges I’m experiencing with your posts is understanding whether your references to “affirmative action” are limited to government recruitment policies for its own personnel, policies that are voluntarily adopted by private industry (or other private organizations), or perhaps punitive enforcement against private firms that have demonstrated a clear pattern of discrimination and are required to adopt policies or programs that are intended to correct that error.
    I am not sure it is a valid distinction. Private programs exist in a legal environment in which failure to hire a cross section of society may be taken as evidence of illegal discrimination without regard to the availability of qualifications.
    I personally think governments and private organizations should never discriminate against equally qualified Americans in favor of immigrants.
    Governments and private organizations should always be free to hire the most qualified individuals. without regard to race etc.
    If private firms with a proven pattern of discrimination are to be required to hire to compensate, it should be limited to the group discriminated against, and not to other groups not the victim of that specific discrimination. Companies hire the people they believe best suits their purposes for reasons the liberals may not agree with. Chinese waiters/waitresses probably are best for a Chinese restaurant. It is simply not a business reason with which the bureaucrats will agree.
    I would agree that blacks were at one time frozen out of much of the economy, and the laws could be effective in righting that wrong. But by giving every group affirmative action except white males, (including immigrants) they fail of their essential purpose of helping redress a wrong and have become a weapon for the Democrats to punish the least Democrat group. AA has had the effect of limiting the opportunities for blacks, who it was originally intended to help.
    Last edited by Benvolio; February 21st, 2013 at 06:51 PM.

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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Republicans overwhelmingly believe in free enterprise capitalism.
    Okay, I said no link required~ but give me one that renders a valid definition of “free enterprise capitalism” – Preferably one that relates to employment practices. (As an example, the one I’ve linked below seems too general and simplistic for purposes of this discussion.)

    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/free+enterprise

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    I personally think governments and private organizations should never discriminate against equally qualified Americans in favor of immigrants.
    What do you think about the federal government extending a hiring preference to military veterans?

  22. #222

    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    Okay, I said no link required~ but give me one that renders a valid definition of “free enterprise capitalism” – Preferably one that relates to employment practices. (As an example, the one I’ve linked below seems too general and simplistic for purposes of this discussion.)

    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/free+enterprise



    What do you think about the federal government extending a hiring preference to military veterans?
    Here is a conventional definition from MerriamWebster.com.
    Definition of CAPITALISM
    : an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market

    Source Link: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/capitalism
    I often prefer the term economic freedom, since the aspect which has made it the most important system devised by mankind is the freedom, not the enterprise or the capital. Given freedom and the rule of law, capitalism will develop. But it is the economic freedom which motivates individuals to work and innovate to better themselves and their families.
    I have no problem is a hiring preference to military veterans, both as a reward and as an incentive. Some of them are non citizens, to be sure, but they are more than mere immigrants.
    Last edited by opinterph; February 22nd, 2013 at 08:52 PM. Reason: added quote tags and source link

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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    I have no problem is a hiring preference to military veterans, both as a reward and as an incentive. Some of them are non citizens, to be sure, but they are more than mere immigrants.
    I don't mean to jump into wherever Opin is going but I believe the point he was making here with this question is that you probably do agree with preferential hiring practices, like for military vets, to achieve certain positive outcomes--- like fewer unemployed veterans.

    That's exactly what these policies do for groups that traditionally have been, and frequently still are, underrepresented in the higher/professional/skilled end of the workforce.

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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    If we assume that indeed there is no way to have balance (at least for now), but only one preference or the other - white or non-white - is it then morally wrong to pass the ball to the non-white job seekers for a while, since they have been on the short end of the stick for so long?
    Your assumption is flawed.

    Reversing discrimination does nothing more than to reflect the transgression. If you truly seek fairness, you will not subscribe to a scheme that merely substitutes the role of the oppressed for that of the oppressor.

  25. #225

    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    I don't mean to jump into wherever Opin is going but I believe the point he was making here with this question is that you probably do agree with preferential hiring practices, like for military vets, to achieve certain positive outcomes--- like fewer unemployed veterans.

    That's exactly what these policies do for groups that traditionally have been, and frequently still are, underrepresented in the higher/professional/skilled end of the workforce.
    The preferential hiring for vets would be valid as an incentive in recruiting or as a reward for services rendered to the government. Otherwise, I would be a denial of equal protection. Nothing in the Constitution allows such meddling by the government, and experience shows that such meddling will be uses for partisan purposes as parties give preferences to groups with tend to support them.

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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    The preferential hiring for vets would be valid as an incentive in recruiting or as a reward for services rendered to the government. Otherwise, I would be a denial of equal protection. Nothing in the Constitution allows such meddling by the government, and experience shows that such meddling will be uses for partisan purposes as parties give preferences to groups with tend to support them.
    Benvolio you seem to have an odd interpretation of Equal Protections where you would think that the solution to something like the KKK targetting black people would be to create a subset of police to protect white, asian, middle eastern, hispanic, Native American and black people from the KKK.

    It's one of these issues:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    Your assumption is flawed.

    Reversing discrimination does nothing more than to reflect the transgression. If you truly seek fairness, you will not subscribe to a scheme that merely substitutes the role of the oppressed for that of the oppressor.
    That assumption is Benvolio's, not mine. He is the one for whom special protections for minorities = discrimination of white males. I absolutely do not agree with him, but even assuming he was right, it still seems to me that to him it's ok to keep the discrimination on the minorities, because... of... reasons? Or something. So I was asking a question based on his assumption.
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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    @Benvolio

    Part of what you’ve written suggests that your argument includes a rejection of the general theory and legitimacy of non-discrimination laws. I think we should take note that the term “affirmative action” includes directives that originate in both public and private sector entities (relative to employment practices) and I suggest we limit our immediate discussion to actions that are required of private business industry as a matter of compliance to the various federal laws and regulations. And though the federal government has instituted a variety of measures to help ensure the inclusion of minorities within its own work force, I submit that the most relevant issue in the context of our discussion is the effect of compliance on private industry and the citizens who are affected by those outcomes.

    Your reference to “a million legal immigrants” arriving each year in the US appears most clearly indicative of persons who are granted “lawful permanent residence” in the US and therefore hold an Immigrant Visa. Persons granted that status are eligible to be employed under the same laws as a US citizen. Ergo, they are part of the US labor force.

    I perceive a number of errors in your representations regarding private industry’s compliance with federal non-discrimination laws, but the finer points of understanding are rendered somewhat moot if you fail to recognize that non-discrimination is codified into law. Part of the general expectation incumbent to persons who engage in the employment of others is that they will conform their business practices in a manner that is consistent with those federal guidelines, as applicable. It is reasonable to note that many smaller employers are exempt from federal non-discrimination laws. It is also pertinent to recognize that those laws offer the same protections to all persons – regardless of the relative frequency of their composition in whatever characteristics may be considered under provisions of the law. In other words, Caucasians are protected the same as Native Hawaiians or Native Americans and the cultural characteristics of all ethnicities are protected equally. Fair treatment starts with hiring the most qualified person – irrespective of their association with a particular race, color, religion, sex, or national origin – but it extends to all aspects of employment, including such matters as compensation and promotion. Regardless of its critique or misunderstanding, non-discrimination is the law.

  29. #229

    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    The anti-discrimination laws are enforced, not only by the bureaucrats and prosecuting attorneys; they are enforced by private law suits, including class actions, largely for the benefit of the lawyers, with trials before juries.
    While businesses have not technically been required to have affirmative action plans (but see Dodd Frank) the absence of minority hiring will be regarded as evidence of discrimination, and affirmative action can be a defense, so businesses are pressured or forced to hire by affirmative action.
    The ability to hire the most qualified is largely an illusion, since an employer who sets a standard can be required to prove that it is necessary for the business. Requiring a high school education for instance can be illegal if it is not proven to be necessary. Another thread shows that the employer who wishes to avoid hiring convicted criminals may be in trouble as well. Whether a hiring is justified by qualifications will be reviewed by people who have little regard for the wants or needs of the employer and are biased in favor of minorities. I doubt if the EEOC hires many Conservatives.
    While in theory the laws protect whites as well, in practice and in intent, they are intended to require discrimination against whites. Affirmative action is discrimination, of course. And the law, by Congress and regulation, is increasingly hostile to whites. We have debated Dodd-Frank, but the "maximum extent possible" requirement is most easily complied with by a policy of "no whites", which is to say, no Republicans.
    You many believe that the laws are necessary or advisable to protect the minorities, but remember that they have been necessitated by the immigration laws, which facilitate discrimination by making alternatives available. Now, the US brings in minorities and forces, yes, forces, businesses to discriminate against Americans to hire them.
    Saying it is the law, does not impress me. There are lots of bad laws and these are among them. I would concede that there was a time when blacks were effectively frozen out of the economy and the first anti-discrimination laws were necessary, But that benefit was destroyed by extending the preference to everyone except white males. Blacks are still victims but the beneficiaries are more likely to be other non-whites, including recent immigrants.

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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    The anti-discrimination laws are enforced, not only by the bureaucrats and prosecuting attorneys; they are enforced by private law suits, including class actions, largely for the benefit of the lawyers, with trials before juries.
    While businesses have not technically been required to have affirmative action plans (but see Dodd Frank) the absence of minority hiring will be regarded as evidence of discrimination, and affirmative action can be a defense, so businesses are pressured or forced to hire by affirmative action.
    The ability to hire the most qualified is largely an illusion, since an employer who sets a standard can be required to prove that it is necessary for the business. Requiring a high school education for instance can be illegal if it is not proven to be necessary. Another thread shows that the employer who wishes to avoid hiring convicted criminals may be in trouble as well. Whether a hiring is justified by qualifications will be reviewed by people who have little regard for the wants or needs of the employer and are biased in favor of minorities. I doubt if the EEOC hires many Conservatives.
    While in theory the laws protect whites as well, in practice and in intent, they are intended to require discrimination against whites. Affirmative action is discrimination, of course. And the law, by Congress and regulation, is increasingly hostile to whites. We have debated Dodd-Frank, but the "maximum extent possible" requirement is most easily complied with by a policy of "no whites", which is to say, no Republicans.
    You many believe that the laws are necessary or advisable to protect the minorities, but remember that they have been necessitated by the immigration laws, which facilitate discrimination by making alternatives available. Now, the US brings in minorities and forces, yes, forces, businesses to discriminate against Americans to hire them.
    Saying it is the law, does not impress me. There are lots of bad laws and these are among them. I would concede that there was a time when blacks were effectively frozen out of the economy and the first anti-discrimination laws were necessary, But that benefit was destroyed by extending the preference to everyone except white males. Blacks are still victims but the beneficiaries are more likely to be other non-whites, including recent immigrants.
    Affirmative Action is only "discrimination" in a zero sum worldview where everyone started off precisely equal with equal access and equal opportunity, and then proceeded to give a 'handicap' to whites. Affirmative Action is an admittedly imprecise tool that has attempted to correct previous and ongoing discrimination which generally, with other factors being equal, tends to regard white and male as the preferrable hire.

    Basically, your entire viewpoint ignores the enormous advantage white males have traditionally enjoy, and continue to enjoy, in dominating the most lucrative jobs, fields, promotions, and initial hirings. It may be less today than 30 years ago but it continues to make them overrepresented in the best jobs and in leadership, executive and managerial positions.

    As I've repeatedly stated throughout this thread, come back when white men actually fail to be hired or promoted as often as one of the groups targetted for fair inclusion policies and then use the word "discrimination." Until then, like I say.... yelling wolf.

  31. #231

    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    What you overlook, is that any advantage white males have enjoyed arose from the fact that they invented the invention, they started the industries, they started the companies, created the jobs, and for the most part still do. Hispanics could have invented the electric light but they did not, Africans could have developed the automobile, but they did not, Indians could have developed the computer, etc. Having built the companies is it any surprise that they occupy the leadership, executive and managerial positions? No, it is not race, it is culture.

  32. #232
    Impish and Mercurial Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    What you overlook, is that any advantage white males have enjoyed arose from the fact that they invented the invention, they started the industries, they started the companies, created the jobs, and for the most part still do. Hispanics could have invented the electric light but they did not, Africans could have developed the automobile, but they did not, Indians could have developed the computer, etc. Having built the companies is it any surprise that they occupy the leadership, executive and managerial positions? No, it is not race, it is culture.
    Again with the "white people are just better" racist excuse... Well, most of white "culture"'s discoveries stem from Asia and the Arab world. Just for your own personal information. Even gunpowder is not a white invention, never mind that white people used it to conquer this continent.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  33. #233

    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Nonsense. .......

  34. #234
    Impish and Mercurial Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Nonsense. .......
    You spelled "fact" wrong. Check your history before making dumb claims not supported by it.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  35. #235

    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    So the Chinese invented the electrical system? Steam power? Internal combustion? Telegraph, telephone, radio, television, nuclear power, the radio tube, transistor, computer, cell phone? The telescope, microscope? They discovered bacteria, viruses, penicillin? The airplane?
    Many centuries ago Chinese invented gun powder, but there is no evidence Europeans learned from them. Roger Bacon in England discovered it independently. Arabs invented the abacus. But that is about is. You can point to a few other things. Both cultures went stagnant many centuries ago, while the west has remade the world, and continues to do so.
    The reason people like you are so dangerous is that, being totally ignorant of the accomplishments of our culture you will kill the goose that lays the golden eggs. I do not predict a Dark Age without good reason.

  36. #236
    Impish and Mercurial Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Your revisionism and willful ignorance of how the historical process works is giving me vertigo. Every invention stems from a previous one and wouldn't exist without it.

    And half of what you describe comes from Ancient Greece - yunno, those BROWN people...
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  37. #237

    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Why do you always want to disparage America and its accomplishments? Why do you hate America so much? You never have a good thong to say about our country. And Greeks are white.

  38. #238
    Impish and Mercurial Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Why do you always want to disparage America and its accomplishments? Why do you hate America so much? You never have a good thong to say about our country. And Greeks are white.
    They are Mediterranean. You'd call them "Hispanics" if you saw them today. Nothing Anglo-Saxon about them.

    As for your sad attempt to make ME seem like the hater - I love America. But its accomplishments are built on the backs of previous accomplishments, and the further back you go, the more those accomplishments are not from white cultures. Western culture has been in prominence for less than a tenth of humanity's history. Admitting that is not hating America. Wanting the country to freeze in a stagnant self-absorbed mass of white self-indulgence is hating America. YOU hate America.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  39. #239

    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    More disparagement of our country. You just can't say a good word.

  40. #240
    Impish and Mercurial Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    More disparagement of our country. You just can't say a good word.
    Stop bullying me. Your attempts at intimidation are against the CE&P rules.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  41. #241
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Your revisionism and willful ignorance of how the historical process works is giving me vertigo. Every invention stems from a previous one and wouldn't exist without it.

    And half of what you describe comes from Ancient Greece - yunno, those BROWN people...
    He won't back up a single word of his argument... he'll just say "White people invented all these things" (and no proof as usual)... it's just all empty talk.

    I'm sure he won't even mention George Washington Carver's name... for example. Only "white people" can do good... I don't know why this forum allows such racism and xenophobia to continue.

  42. #242
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Roger Bacon in England discovered it independently.
    Falsehood.

    The reason people like you are so dangerous is that, being totally ignorant of the accomplishments of our culture you will kill the goose that lays the golden eggs. I do not predict a Dark Age without good reason.
    He's dangerous for stating facts? The real people that are dangerous are those who are historical revisionists much like yourself.

    Most inventions weren't by white cultures. Just admit it. The faster one can admit to reality, the better off they'll be.

  43. #243

    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Name one not by white culture. How far back in time will you have to go?

  44. #244
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Name one by white culture. See this is his problem. He keeps making things up. And many recent inventions were not actually by whites. White culture... yeah... sounds like Aryan nation propaganda to me... why is this allowed to continue?

  45. #245
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    What you overlook, is that any advantage white males have enjoyed arose from the fact that they invented the invention, they started the industries, they started the companies, created the jobs, and for the most part still do. Hispanics could have invented the electric light but they did not, Africans could have developed the automobile, but they did not, Indians could have developed the computer, etc. Having built the companies is it any surprise that they occupy the leadership, executive and managerial positions? No, it is not race, it is culture.
    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    So the Chinese invented the electrical system? Steam power? Internal combustion? Telegraph, telephone, radio, television, nuclear power, the radio tube, transistor, computer, cell phone? The telescope, microscope? They discovered bacteria, viruses, penicillin? The airplane?
    Many centuries ago Chinese invented gun powder, but there is no evidence Europeans learned from them. Roger Bacon in England discovered it independently. Arabs invented the abacus. But that is about is. You can point to a few other things. Both cultures went stagnant many centuries ago, while the west has remade the world, and continues to do so.
    The reason people like you are so dangerous is that, being totally ignorant of the accomplishments of our culture you will kill the goose that lays the golden eggs. I do not predict a Dark Age without good reason.
    1) Your history is skewed and inaccurate

    2) what's your point here? "White people invented more so they deserve an unfair preference in society?"

    Stop pretending this is about some imaginary, unmeasurable "disadvantage" to white people that you're unable to prove.

  46. #246
    Impish and Mercurial Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Why do you hate America, buzzer? This IS after all the "Praise America And Show Your Patriotism" forum and you never have anything good to say about America. How dare you come to our country and use our superior culture, education and whiteness while hating on us so?!
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  47. #247
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    I love how the yardstick he draws for what racialized groups have contributed to mankind begins with the industrial boom post-colonialism, where Europeans used the smelting, compass, gunpowder, paper and navigation techniques which largely leaked to them through the Middle East via the Muslim and Chinese world and used it to go build fantastic wealth plundering everyone, and at a point in time where most non European people on the planet had their societies fundamentally wrecked by European imperialism. Everything before that is irrelevant, including the inventions that were critical to the European age of sail and discovery and did not originate in Europe.
    Last edited by xbuzzerx; February 25th, 2013 at 11:28 AM.

  48. #248
    Oranje rareboy's Avatar
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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    So the Chinese invented the electrical system? Steam power? Internal combustion? Telegraph, telephone, radio, television, nuclear power, the radio tube, transistor, computer, cell phone? The telescope, microscope? They discovered bacteria, viruses, penicillin? The airplane?
    Many centuries ago Chinese invented gun powder, but there is no evidence Europeans learned from them. Roger Bacon in England discovered it independently. Arabs invented the abacus. But that is about is. You can point to a few other things. Both cultures went stagnant many centuries ago, while the west has remade the world, and continues to do so.
    The reason people like you are so dangerous is that, being totally ignorant of the accomplishments of our culture you will kill the goose that lays the golden eggs. I do not predict a Dark Age without good reason.

    You've got a lot of this wrong, but it is fun for everyone to see where your head is.

    The reason that white males invented many things is not superiority in intellect or ability. It is cultural opportunity and economics.

    In the pre-renaissance, the Catholic Church and the Arabic world saved much of the ancient learning including medicine, botany, astronomy, geometry, chemistry, etc. The Dark Ages, which only lasted for about 1000 years, largely came about because of the suppression of learning by the Christian Church, run by...you guessed it...a lot of white men.

    It was the trips to the orient and the dawning of the age of humanism that unlocked many of the 'secrets' of the East, including gunpowder. Your supposition is silly that Bacon did this independently of knowledge of eastern gun powder chemistry. Your assertion by the way is a lie.

    One theory of how gunpowder came to Europe is that it made its way along the Silk Road through the Middle East; another is that it was brought to Europe during the Mongol invasion in the first half of the 13th century,[41][42] or during the subsequent diplomatic and military contacts (see Franco-Mongol alliance). William of Rubruck, an ambassador to the Mongols in 1254–1255 and a personal friend of Roger Bacon, is also often designated as a possible intermediary in the transmission of gunpowder know-how between the East and the West.[42][43]
    For instance, a 'white' man could have invented the astrolabe. But the Arabs already had. With this device, sea navigation became a science and the entire world opened up. Along with the compass, invented by the Chinese.

    By the way, it was actually the Chinese who invented the abacus in 3000BC which ultimately became the model for computational thinking.

    But science was at odds with the late medieval Church thinking. So the church actively suppressed all science that would challenge the foundations of the medieval church through excommunication and even torture.

    So what was the catalyst for the explosion of technology in the west?

    The Reformation. The Age of Reason. The ability to use the collected science of the East and the middle east to lay the foundations for the rise of the western european industrial age. Without the Church to hold them back, and with the riches of the New World to finance the endeavour, England, Scotland, Holland and the other protestant countries became home to the scholars and scientists...beyond the reach of the medieval church.

    Quite simply it was the opportunity to exploit the learning and the ability to more easily communicate with the other scholars in the west and east that changed the world...not some kind of genetic or intellectual superiority.

    This accelerates as education, including sciences, becomes more common and available, mostly in the protestant universities.

    Internal Combustion

    Prior to 1860


    Model of the Barsanti-Matteucci engine (1853) in the Osservatorio Ximeniano in Florence
    5th century: Roman engineers documented several crankshaft-connecting rod machines used for their sawmills.
    17th century: Christiaan Huygens designs gunpowder to drive water pumps, to supply 3000 cubic meters of water/day for the Versailles palace gardens, essentially creating the first idea of a rudimentary internal combustion piston engine.
    1780s: Alessandro Volta built a toy electric pistol[1] in which an electric spark exploded a mixture of air and hydrogen, firing a cork from the end of the gun.
    1791: John Barber receives British patent #1833 for A Method for Rising Inflammable Air for the Purposes of Producing Motion and Facilitating Metallurgical Operations. In it he describes a turbine.
    1794: Robert Street built a compressionless engine whose principle of operation would dominate for nearly a century.
    1798: Tippu Sultan, the ruler of the city-state of Mysore in India, uses the first iron rockets against the British Army.
    1807: Nicéphore Niépce installed his 'moss, coal-dust and resin' fueled Pyréolophore internal combustion engine in a boat and powered up the river Saône in France. A patent was subsequently granted by Emperor Napoleon Bonaparte on 20 July 1807.
    1807: Swiss engineer François Isaac de Rivaz built an internal combustion engine powered by a hydrogen and oxygen mixture, and ignited by electric spark. (See 1780s: Alessandro Volta above.) [2]
    1823: Samuel Brown patented the first internal combustion engine to be applied industrially. It was compressionless and based on what Hardenberg calls the "Leonardo cycle," which, as the name implies, was already out of date at that time.
    1824: French physicist Sadi Carnot established the thermodynamic theory of idealized heat engines. This scientifically established the need for compression to increase the difference between the upper and lower working temperatures.
    1826 April 1: American Samuel Morey received a patent for a compressionless "Gas or Vapor Engine."
    1833: Lemuel Wellman Wright, UK patent 6525, table-type gas engine. Double acting gas engine, first record of water jacketed cylinder.[3]
    1838: A patent was granted to William Barnett (English). According to Dugald Clerk, this was the first recorded use of in-cylinder compression.[4]
    1854-57: Eugenio Barsanti & Felice Matteucci invented an engine that was possibly the first 4-cycle engine, but the patent was lost.[note 1]


    Early internal combustion engines were used to power farm equipment similar to these models.


    This internal combustion engine was an integral aspect of the patent for the first patented automobile, made by Karl Benz on January 29, 1886


    Karl Benz
    1856: in Florence at Fonderia del Pignone (now Nuovo Pignone, later a subsidiary of General Electric), Pietro Benini realized a working prototype of the Italian engine supplying 5 HP. In subsequent years he developed more powerful engines—with one or two pistons—which served as steady power sources, replacing steam engines.
    1857: Eugenio Barsanti & Felice Matteucci describe the principles of the free piston engine where the vacuum after the explosion allows atmospheric pressure to deliver the power stroke (British patent No 1625). Otto and Langen were the first to make a marketable engine based on this concept 10 years later.
    Television?

    In 1884 Paul Gottlieb Nipkow, a 23-year-old university student in Germany,[4] patented the first electromechanical television system which employed a scanning disk, a spinning disk with a series of holes spiraling toward the center, for rasterization. The holes were spaced at equal angular intervals such that in a single rotation the disk would allow light to pass through each hole and onto a light-sensitive selenium sensor which produced the electrical pulses. As an image was focused on the rotating disk, each hole captured a horizontal "slice" of the whole image.[5]

    Nipkow's design would not be practical until advances in amplifier tube technology became available. Later designs would use a rotating mirror-drum scanner to capture the image and a cathode ray tube (CRT) as a display device, but moving images were still not possible, due to the poor sensitivity of the selenium sensors. In 1907 Russian scientist Boris Rosing became the first inventor to use a CRT in the receiver of an experimental television system. He used mirror-drum scanning to transmit simple geometric shapes to the CRT.[6]
    Electricity?

    Possibly the earliest and nearest approach to the discovery of the identity of lightning, and electricity from any other source, is to be attributed to the Arabs, who before the 15th century had the Arabic word for lightning (raad) applied to the electric ray.[5]
    Ancient cultures around the Mediterranean knew that certain objects, such as rods of amber, could be rubbed with cat's fur to attract light objects like feathers. Thales of Miletos made a series of observations on static electricity around 600 BC, from which he believed that friction rendered amber magnetic, in contrast to minerals such as magnetite, which needed no rubbing.[6][7]
    So it was through the re-introduction of the classic treatises on science that Gilbert, Otto von Guericke, Robert Boyle, Stephen Gray and C. F. du Fay as well as Benjamin Franklin, Volta, Farrady, Ampere and finally, Tesla, Edison, Westinghouse, Von Siemens and Kelvin put all the different pieces into practise.

    Transistor Technology?

    The first patent[1] for the field-effect transistor principle was filed in Canada by Austrian-Hungarian physicist Julius Edgar Lilienfeld on October 22, 1925, but Lilienfeld published no research articles about his devices, and his work was ignored by industry.

    The world’s first transistor computer was built at the University of Manchester in November 1953. The computer was built by Dick Grimsdale, then a research student in the Department of Electrical Engineering and later a Professor of Electronic Engineering at Sussex University.

    We can thank world War II for pushing forward transistor and semi-conductor technology.

    Bacteria?

    Bacteria were first observed by Antonie van Leeuwenhoek in 1676, using a single-lens microscope of his own design.[170] He called them "animalcules" and published his observations in a series of letters to the Royal Society.

    The Microscope?

    It was the Arabic studies on optics that allowed Bacon to construct the first magnifying lens used in Western science, although the Chinese invented eyeglasses around 1000 BC, which were noted by Marco Polo and brought back to Europe. It was Galileo who also used the science of the Arabs to create his first telescope. It was a Dutch guy who built the first modern microscope as we know it.

    Paper?

    Could have been invented by a white guy, but it wasn't. It was the Chinese.

    Movable type Printing?

    Oh right. Not a white guy. The Chinese.

    Steam Engines?

    The history of the steam engine stretches back as far as the first century AD; the first recorded rudimentary steam engine being the aeolipile described by Greek mathematician Hero of Alexandria.[6] In the following centuries, the few steam-powered "engines" known were, like the aeolipile,[7] essentially experimental devices used by inventors to demonstrate the properties of steam. A rudimentary steam turbine device was described by Taqi al-Din[8] in 1551 and by Giovanni Branca[9] in 1629.[10] Jerónimo de Ayanz y Beaumont received patents in 1606 for fifty steam powered inventions, including a water pump for draining inundated mines.[11] Denis Papin, a Huguenot refugee, did some useful work on the steam digester in 1679, and first used a piston to raise weights in 1690.[12]

    Porcelain and ceramics??

    The Chinese.

    Paper money?

    The Chinese.

    The worlds' first seismometer?

    The Chinese.

    The Microchip?

    Early developments of the integrated circuit go back to 1949, when the German engineer Werner Jacobi (de) (Siemens AG)[4] filed a patent for an integrated-circuit-like semiconductor amplifying device[5] showing five transistors on a common substrate in a 3-stage amplifier arrangement. Jacobi disclosed small and cheap hearing aids as typical industrial applications of his patent. An immediate commercial use of his patent has not been reported.
    The idea of the integrated circuit was conceived by a radar scientist working for the Royal Radar Establishment of the British Ministry of Defence, Geoffrey W.A. Dummer (1909–2002). Dummer presented the idea to the public at the Symposium on Progress in Quality Electronic Components in Washington, D.C. on 7 May 1952.[6] He gave many symposia publicly to propagate his ideas, and unsuccessfully attempted to build such a circuit in 1956.
    A precursor idea to the IC was to create small ceramic squares (wafers), each one containing a single miniaturized component. Components could then be integrated and wired into a bidimensional or tridimensional compact grid. This idea, which looked very promising in 1957, was proposed to the US Army by Jack Kilby, and led to the short-lived Micromodule Program (similar to 1951's Project Tinkertoy).[7] However, as the project was gaining momentum, Kilby came up with a new, revolutionary design: the IC.
    The Spanish, by the way, may not have invented the airplane, but they invented the auto-gyro.

    The Metric System, ie....the measurement system for science?

    The French.

    Radium?

    Madame Curie.

    Nuclear power?

    Albert Einstein.

    The rocket?

    The Germans.

    Viruses?

    Pasteur, Martinus Willem Beijerinck and Dmitri Ivanovsky. Using the science and the equipment created because of the Greeks and Arabs.

    The helicopter?

    Just look it up.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helicopter

    The physics of flight?

    The Chinese.

    the first flight?

    Richard Pearse in New Zealand.

    The hot air balloon?

    The Chinese. And then the French. And then the Germans.

    The Crossbow?

    The Chinese.

    The repeating crossbow?

    The Chinese.

    Most seige weapons?

    The Arabs.

    The invention of the gun?

    The Mughals.

    The computer?

    The history of the modern computer begins with two separate technologies, automated calculation and programmability. However no single device can be identified as the earliest computer, partly because of the inconsistent application of that term. A few devices are worth mentioning though, like some mechanical aids to computing, which were very successful and survived for centuries until the advent of the electronic calculator, like the Sumerian abacus, designed around 2500 BC[4] of which a descendant won a speed competition against a modern desk calculating machine in Japan in 1946,[5] the slide rules, invented in the 1620s, which were carried on five Apollo space missions, including to the moon[6] and arguably the astrolabe and the Antikythera mechanism, an ancient astronomical computer built by the Greeks around 80 BC.[7] The Greek mathematician Hero of Alexandria (c. 10–70 AD) built a mechanical theater which performed a play lasting 10 minutes and was operated by a complex system of ropes and drums that might be considered to be a means of deciding which parts of the mechanism performed which actions and when.[8] This is the essence of programmability.
    Around the end of the 10th century, the French monk Gerbert d'Aurillac brought back from Spain the drawings of a machine invented by the Moors that answered either Yes or No to the questions it was asked.[9] Again in the 13th century, the monks Albertus Magnus and Roger Bacon built talking androids without any further development (Albertus Magnus complained that he had wasted forty years of his life when Thomas Aquinas, terrified by his machine, destroyed it).[10]
    In 1642, the Renaissance saw the invention of the mechanical calculator,[11] a device that could perform all four arithmetic operations without relying on human intelligence.[12] The mechanical calculator was at the root of the development of computers in two separate ways. Initially, it was in trying to develop more powerful and more flexible calculators[13] that the computer was first theorized by Charles Babbage[14][15] and then developed.[16] Secondly, development of a low-cost electronic calculator, successor to the mechanical calculator, resulted in the development by Intel[17] of the first commercially available microprocessor integrated circuit.
    So you see, your knowledge of where things come from is so ridiculously limited and incorrect in so many instances that you ought to be utterly embarrassed, not by the depth and breadth of your limited education, but by the fact that you don't even have the intellectual curiosity to do even the barest research before you claim superiority.

    You have this rather bizarre idea that many of these inventions are somehow connected with the unfettered capitalism you crave. Sometimes they have been. And at times...to drive the whole engine forward, they have relied on the shameless and shocking exploitation of children, women and near slave...and even slave labour. Your idea of the US slipping back into some terrible dark age is offensive and absurd. There is no question that as the world has become one single giant multi-national corporation that many things will now be invented and exploited wherever the owners of the technology see the opportunity to maximize their return on it. This may ultimately lead to a US where illiterate peasants in backward southern states will be forced to work for a dollar an hour. One would hope not.

    I hope though that the other thing that strikes you though is that the world of technology relies on education and that it is an international endeavour. You really should see what a university campus looks like these days in Europe or the coasts of the US or Canada. It is the multi-cultural exchange of knowledge and creativity that will drive technology forward. Your prediction of a 'Dark Age' seems to miss the fact that almost all the things you mentioned and I have presented are not American or certainly not solely US inventions. But the US exploited them and found ways to improve and market them. So did the Europeans. So did the Japanese. So are the Chinese. So are the Indians. So are the Russians.

    And when you talk about innovation. I suspect that it won't be a US auto company that breaks through the electric car and energy storage challenge now...as long as they are all in the thrall of petroleum.

    btw I've used only wiki for the references. You can look up the source articles or take more time than I did on my lunch hour and look up other sources too. I swear, I don't know why any of us bother. I think my cat knows more than you do.

  49. #249
    Impish and Mercurial Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    I love how the yardstick he draws for what racialized groups have contributed to mankind begins with the industrial boom post-colonialism, where Europeans used the smelting, compass, gunpowder, paper and navigation techniques which largely leaked to them through the Middle East via the Muslim and Chinese world and used it to go build fantastic wealth plundering everyone, and at a point in time where most non European people on the planet had their societies fundamentally wrecked by European imperialism. Everything before that is irrelevant, including the inventions that were critical to the European age of sail and discovery and did not originate in Europe.
    Benvolio remembers it differently
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  50. #250
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Welp, so much for "white people invented everything", thanks to Rareboy.

    And here I was just going to keep it picture children's book simple for Benvolio and point out little things like the British textile revolution came about because of new weaving machinery they stole from occupied India.

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