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  1. #101

    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    Jesus Fucking Christ.

    Give us the specific language that creates this nightmare scenario for you, or give us the legal cites as I have asked for ....or stop flinging every thing you can get your mitts on to support your spurious claims and specious arguments.

    Prove your claim or be silent.

    At least you have brought your argument back to the real crux of the matter for you......the possibility that non white males might get preference over a white male. No bullshit about protecting the blacks or women.

    ...god help us all who bother to read your byzantine rants.
    Here is a subsection of Dodd Frank Section 342(c)(1) requiring the hiring of women and minorities to the "maximum extent possible" which of course results in avoiding white males to the "maximum extent possible".

    "(c) Inclusion in All Levels of Business Activities.--
    (1) In general.--
    The <<NOTE: Standards. Procedures.>> Director of each Office
    shall develop and implement standards and procedures to ensure,
    to the maximum extent possible, the fair inclusion and
    utilization of minorities, women, and minority-owned and women-
    owned businesses in all business and activities of the agency at
    all levels, including in procurement, insurance, and all types
    of contracts.
    (2) Contracts.--The procedures established by each agency
    for review and evaluation of contract proposals and for hiring
    service providers shall include, to the extent consistent with
    applicable law, a component that gives consideration to the
    diversity of the applicant. Such procedure shall include a
    written statement, in a form and with such content as the
    Director shall prescribe, that a contractor shall ensure, to the
    maximum extent possible, the fair inclusion of women and
    minorities in the workforce of the contractor and, as
    applicable, subcontractors."

  2. #102
    On the Prowl Nemothepanda's Avatar
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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Here is a subsection of Dodd Frank Section 342(c)(1) requiring the hiring of women and minorities to the "maximum extent possible" which of course results in avoiding white males to the "maximum extent possible".

    "(c) Inclusion in All Levels of Business Activities.--
    (1) In general.--
    The <<NOTE: Standards. Procedures.>> Director of each Office
    shall develop and implement standards and procedures to ensure,
    to the maximum extent possible, the fair inclusion and
    utilization of minorities, women, and minority-owned and women-
    owned businesses in all business and activities of the agency at
    all levels, including in procurement, insurance, and all types
    of contracts.

    (2) Contracts.--The procedures established by each agency
    for review and evaluation of contract proposals and for hiring
    service providers shall include, to the extent consistent with
    applicable law, a component that gives consideration to the
    diversity of the applicant. Such procedure shall include a
    written statement, in a form and with such content as the
    Director shall prescribe, that a contractor shall ensure, to the
    maximum extent possible, the fair inclusion of women and
    minorities in the workforce of the contractor and, as
    applicable, subcontractors."
    All that regulation says is that minorities should be considered and accepted at every level. It doesn't say anything about intentionally excluding white men.

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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    ^ No it doesn't. But the Stromfront Coffee Klatsch (oops, probably shouldn't use yiddish) girls have their panties in a tight twist reading things into the wording of Dodd Frank that simply do not exist and which have not presented any obstacle to a white man being considered equally for the same position as one of those scary brown people.

    What AA and Dodd Frank are getting at, is that in the white male dominated world....and it is; make no mistake about it, there should be fairness and consideration given to the hiring of minorities and women.

    Where the fuck the Benvolio's of this world come up with their paranoid and frankly fallacious interpretations of these clauses is baffling to the extreme. But I think that it clearly proves that it is only a red herring in this thread. It has no direct or even indirect relevance to the topis.

    If BV wants to have at Dodd Frank and Affirmative Action, then a separate thread would be in order.

  4. #104

    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by Nemothepanda View Post
    All that regulation says is that minorities should be considered and accepted at every level. It doesn't say anything about intentionally excluding white men.
    You dishonestly left out the words "to the maximum extent possible", hiring women and minorities.Which requires exclusion of white males, to the maximum extent possible.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nemothepanda View Post
    All that regulation says is that minorities should be considered and accepted at every level. It doesn't say anything about intentionally excluding white men.
    You dishonestly left out the words "to the maximum extent possible", hiring women and minorities.Which requires exclusion of white males, to the maximum extent possible.

  5. #105
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    You know, as a white male myself, I feel no sympathy for those hypothetical white males that didn't get hired because somebody picked a brown boy or - gasp! - a woman over them. Fuck it, white men have been a privileged elite for nearly 2000 years. Let's see how they fare without unfair advantages.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  6. #106

    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    You know, as a white male myself, I feel no sympathy for those hypothetical white males that didn't get hired because somebody picked a brown boy or - gasp! - a woman over them. Fuck it, white men have been a privileged elite for nearly 2000 years. Let's see how they fare without unfair advantages.
    You don't understand. The statute requires the exclusion of white males.
    Last edited by Benvolio; February 17th, 2013 at 11:23 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post

    You don't understand. The statute requires the exclusion of white males.
    Sounds like it sucks to be a white male then. What goes around does ultimately come around, and the pendulum of history stands still for no Benvolio.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  8. #108
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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    You don't understand. The statute requires the exclusion of white males.
    Benny is totally right, guys. I looked at the Dodd-Frank bill with a microscope, and it says "FUCK WHITEY!" in very small print.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by FuryOfFirestorm View Post

    Benny is totally right, guys. I looked at the Dodd-Frank bill with a microscope, and it says "FUCK WHITEY!" in very small print.
    It's a good thing really. I often do it myself.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    You dishonestly left out the words "to the maximum extent possible", hiring women and minorities.Which requires exclusion of white males, to the maximum extent possible.

    - - - Updated - - -

    You dishonestly left out the words "to the maximum extent possible", hiring women and minorities.Which requires exclusion of white males, to the maximum extent possible.
    Maximum extent as in to the point where the field isn't dominated by just one demographic or two. The fact that said demographic refers to white males is because they're the majority...hence why the other groups are called minorities because they get minority representation most of the time and are at the greatest risked on being disfranchised.

  11. #111

    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by Nemothepanda View Post
    Maximum extent as in to the point where the field isn't dominated by just one demographic or two. The fact that said demographic refers to white males is because they're the majority...hence why the other groups are called minorities because they get minority representation most of the time and are at the greatest risked on being disfranchised.
    Ironically, most if the jobs the minorities want are created by white males, and their beloveted welfare comes from the taxes of white males. They not only bite the hand that feeds them,but they want to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs.

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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Well if all those white males are paying taxes and creating jobs, they can't be unemployed now can they!!!!!

    YAY! Problem solved.
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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    You know, as a white male myself, I feel no sympathy for those hypothetical white males that didn't get hired because somebody picked a brown boy or - gasp! - a woman over them. Fuck it, white men have been a privileged elite for nearly 2000 years. Let's see how they fare without unfair advantages.
    That's really a lot of fallacy in just one post.

    Throughout history, we have had an elitist society. That you might have been just as white as the Christian kings, popes, and emperors of Europe was absolutely no protection against being exploited by the elite.

    It ultimately just isn't fair to deny a white guy the same chance at a job today just because George Wallace happened to be white. The only thing we need to do to undo the legacy of racism is hire people on their merits.

  14. #114
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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Ironically, most if the jobs the minorities want are created by white males, and their beloveted welfare comes from the taxes of white males. They not only bite the hand that feeds them,but they want to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs.
    And that's a pile of subservience we can do without. Again your economics are on shaky ground. Actually your economics are on Lake Chebarkul I think. Employees are not servants. Their efforts are worth as much as the money parted with when the owner of a business pays their salary. It is absolutely an exchange of equals. And the owner of a business should be just as careful to treat the workers as the goose that lays the golden egg.

    Do you actually read things written by economists?

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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    C'mon Benvolio.

    It has been clearly demonstrated that you've just pulled this out of your ass and that it has neither relevance to the topic nor is it even true?

    Is this what has been keeping you up nights?

    The mistaken belief that brown boys are whuppin' the asses of their white masters?

    As I said, I'm delighted that at last your angry racism surfaces...the real reason why you hate immigration and any possibility of a coloured person getting a job.

    So welfare for coloured people comes only form the taxes of the hard working white males? Is that what you have all convinced yourselves of over there at SF?

    Do you realize how ridiculous you look to all of us at this moment? Do you?

    Has it ever occurred to you that if the US mandated the payment of a minimum wage that would actually allow people to pay for food and shelter that there would be an incentive to work...and that the taxpayer at large wouldn't be having to supplement with food stamps etc.? Does it ever occur to you that the only reason that the US is in the position it is today is that the taxpayer once again is deeply subsidizing the bottom line of multi-national corporations who can keep their wages below poverty line levels because the taxpayer will have to pick up the slack.

    You go round and round and round....always blaming the wrong people and the wrong things for the trouble. Start with the idea of everyone paying a fair price for a product and service, including the labour. You'f be amazed at how prosperous you all might become.

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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    That's really a lot of fallacy in just one post.

    Throughout history, we have had an elitist society. That you might have been just as white as the Christian kings, popes, and emperors of Europe was absolutely no protection against being exploited by the elite.

    It ultimately just isn't fair to deny a white guy the same chance at a job today just because George Wallace happened to be white. The only thing we need to do to undo the legacy of racism is hire people on their merits.

    Sure, but white men have been "exploited" a hell of a lot less than anyone else now haven't they. Since white men STILL benefit from the racial (and gender) assumptions baggage of western culture, I can see the point. You just reduced the argument to the same simplistic terms Rolyo did, and not so charmingly!

    It isn't fair is a pointless thing to say. People make decisions fair or not about hiring all the damn time - it isn't fair for the nephew of your buddy to get that job just because either - it isn't fair that they gave that promotion to the guy with the family even though you had better numbers, such is life.
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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    ...As I said, I'm delighted that at last your angry racism surfaces...the real reason why you hate immigration and any possibility of a coloured person getting a job...
    At Last???????
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  18. #118
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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    You don't understand. The statute requires the exclusion of white males.
    First off Benvolio your nightmare interpretation of these policies has already been handily debunked by everyone else here, very well. So there's no need for me to say anything about that.

    Second off, in what parallel universe do you live in where white males in this country earn less and have less access to good jobs than every non-white-male group?

    This is like yelling murder with no body or yelling rape with no victim.

  19. #119

    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    First off Benvolio your nightmare interpretation of these policies has already been handily debunked by everyone else here, very well. So there's no need for me to say anything about that.

    Second off, in what parallel universe do you live in where white males in this country earn less and have less access to good jobs than every non-white-male group?

    This is like yelling murder with no body or yelling rape with no victim.
    Nothing has been debunked. The others, like you, can only make personal attacks.

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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Nothing has been debunked. The others, like you, can only make personal attacks.
    Actually nothing in my post attacked you at all. So now you're just sidestepping the points.

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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    Sure, but white men have been "exploited" a hell of a lot less than anyone else now haven't they. Since white men STILL benefit from the racial (and gender) assumptions baggage of western culture, I can see the point. You just reduced the argument to the same simplistic terms Rolyo did, and not so charmingly!

    It isn't fair is a pointless thing to say. People make decisions fair or not about hiring all the damn time - it isn't fair for the nephew of your buddy to get that job just because either - it isn't fair that they gave that promotion to the guy with the family even though you had better numbers, such is life.
    The trouble is, the minute you depart from actual merit as the criteria for hiring someone, it legitimises it for everybody to work whatever insider advantage they think they can get.

    It leads people to wonder if they should start trying to work the Secret White Network™ for advancement. I'm not sure how that would work tbqh, but I keep being told I have a membership card. Mind you I can't figure out airmiles either. Just when I think I have enough, they either expire, or I find out all I can get is a blender.

  22. #122

    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Actually nothing in my post attacked you at all. So now you're just sidestepping the points.
    If there were points, thy are lost in the rudeness.

  23. #123
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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    At Last???????
    I only say that because BV was mooting the point that the real people hurt by all of this were the African Americans....in some desperate attempt to disguise the real issue he has with affirmative action.

    The only issue for Benvolio is white power.

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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    That's really a lot of fallacy in just one post.

    Throughout history, we have had an elitist society. That you might have been just as white as the Christian kings, popes, and emperors of Europe was absolutely no protection against being exploited by the elite.

    It ultimately just isn't fair to deny a white guy the same chance at a job today just because George Wallace happened to be white. The only thing we need to do to undo the legacy of racism is hire people on their merits.
    1. All the elite was white, whether whites were also discriminated against.

    2. It's easy to talk of hiring people on their merits, but until societal perception of different colors and races changes, the white man attitude toward those merits will be colored by... well, color and race. While nobody is entirely in love with the idea that we should hire someone because he's from a minority, ultimately that is a necessity until people become truly colorblind. If you can claim with a straight face that they already are, I will... disagree...
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    First off Benvolio your nightmare interpretation of these policies has already been handily debunked by everyone else here, very well. So there's no need for me to say anything about that.

    Second off, in what parallel universe do you live in where white males in this country earn less and have less access to good jobs than every non-white-male group?

    This is like yelling murder with no body or yelling rape with no victim.
    ^ Benvolio if you are unable to demonstrate that white males are not earning more than another demographic and on the whole have worse jobs or job opportunity, then you aren't pointing out that these policies (which don't do what you claim they do or say what you claim they say) are discriminating against white men, but you're only pointing out the opposite: they're doing what they're intended to do and bringing more people up into inclusion in the greater workforce.

    You can't, and haven't, demonstrated any actual harm of these policies or the things you claim they do as far as the white male dominance of income and opportunity.

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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    The trouble is, the minute you depart from actual merit as the criteria for hiring someone, it legitimizes it for everybody to work whatever insider advantage they think they can get.

    It leads people to wonder if they should start trying to work the Secret White Network™ for advancement. I'm not sure how that would work tbqh, but I keep being told I have a membership card. Mind you I can't figure out airmiles either. Just when I think I have enough, they either expire, or I find out all I can get is a blender.
    Who is to say that the woman/black guy is without merit? To assume that, that the minority is automatically less qualified and therefore a product SOLELY of bias is kinda the definition of bias.

    For most of the history of this country, if you were a black guy in competition with a white guy, fucking pack up and go home. Merit or no merit.

    People have been working whatever "insider advantages" they may have since the beginning, that isn't the symptom of anything or some apocalyptic thing to shudder about. THAT has been happening from the start. Everywhere. The secret "White Network" is the societal bias that teaches that black guys are lazy and Mexicans steal, women are flighty, and white male is the defacto standard, and you know what, white guys whether they know it or not, have been benefiting from it since 1776 and beyond.
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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    1. All the elite was white, whether whites were also discriminated against.

    2. It's easy to talk of hiring people on their merits, but until societal perception of different colors and races changes, the white man attitude toward those merits will be colored by... well, color and race. While nobody is entirely in love with the idea that we should hire someone because he's from a minority, ultimately that is a necessity until people become truly colorblind. If you can claim with a straight face that they already are, I will... disagree...
    1. The colour of the elite doesn't matter when everyone who was not elite was subject to exploitation….when other factors could put someone at an equal or greater disadvantage…when decades and centuries pass.

    2. I've hired people, and been hired by people, in colourblind processes; as a result, people of various ethnicities have reported to me, and I have similarly been responsible to people of various ethnicities. My face, though never straight, is serious.

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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    Who is to say that the woman/black guy is without merit? To assume that, that the minority is automatically less qualified and therefore a product SOLELY of bias is kinda the definition of bias.
    The affirmative action process says they have less merit, even when they actually do.

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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    No actually it doesn't, and who is to say the white guy isn't less qualified?
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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by TX-Beau View Post
    No actually it doesn't, and who is to say the white guy isn't less qualified?
    When the white guy is less qualified, affirmative action isn't necessary.

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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    On the contrary that is exactly why it came into being in the first place.
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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    The affirmative action process says they have less merit, even when they actually do.
    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    When the white guy is less qualified, affirmative action isn't necessary.
    That's not true at all. Affirmative Action is regarded by minority academics as a "bad solution to a bad problem." It's not perfect. It sometimes advantages wealthy minorities over poor minorities or poor whites. These sorts of problems with it are known about and have been exhaustively written about. So there's no illusions about that. However, your assertion that affirmative action inherently assumes minority people are less qualified is not correct. It was never a system at all intended to take completely unqualified people and advance them over qualified ones and putting them into jobs they were not capable to do. It was an attempt to redress the massive trend to favor white male candidates as inherently better qualified, more driven, or more desirable to hire over women or over non-whites of similar qualification. These problems still persist when you examine male-female pay differentials for exactly the same job positions, as one example.

    In an affirmative action-free world you see things like, where in Japan, people flat out say don't even bother trying to get a job over x age as a woman. Because employers won't hire you, because they presume pretty soon you're going to get married and pop out kids and then your priority will be your kids and not your job, and you aren't as reliable a worker as a result.
    Last edited by xbuzzerx; February 17th, 2013 at 07:33 PM.

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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Okay maybe we are talking about different things. The way I'm most familiar with it is in federally-regulated industries in Canada, where it is called "Employment Equity."

    In that framework, a manager is obliged to try to make their staff match the same proportion of women, disabled people, aboriginals and visible minorities as in the Canadian population.

    To do this, they have to hire by
    a) figuring out what the minimum requirements are to do the job effectively
    b) advertising and recruiting on that basis
    c) ranking candidates according to the requirements set out
    d) picking the top ranked candidate if that person is female, disabled, aboriginal or a visible minority
    e) skipping over and picking a less-qualified candidate instead, if the first-place candidate is not one of the magic groups, as long as the less-qualified candidate meets the minimum and is one of the four magic groups.

    So it is true that Employment Equity never hires or promotes an unqualified candidate. But it does reject the best candidate unless that person is already one of the magic four groups.

    That is unfair. Worse, it creates the perception (true or not) that any candidate from an ethnic minority, or a woman, or a disabled person, or an aboriginal person, is not actually the best person for the job, only that they were just good enough, and that probably some white male would have been better. It is terrible for morale, and it actually undermines its own stated goal of creating equity in the workplace.

    Without Employment Equity, anybody beaten by an Aboriginal, female, disabled, or visible minority candidate could say "That person was the best candidate for the job; they beat me fair and sqaure," and it opens the door for respect, for natural mentorship and leadership by people regarded as clearly excellent. Instead it casts doubt and division. It is a terrible system.

    The whole approach is wrong from the ground up, but even if there were any useful outcomes of preferential hiring, it would still miss the boat. It doesn't move men into female-dominated sectors (which actually reinforces the prejudice that work traditionally done by women is of lower value). It does not do a damn thing for gay people to help us overcome the challenges of discrimination we've faced. It does not deal with the challenges faced by a white male who grew up in poverty. It does nothing for kids who grew up in broken homes due to mental illness. And a million other kinds of disadvantage that make a real difference. And ultimately, maybe there is a better way, but Employment Equity is worse than doing nothing at all. It makes inequality grow.
    Last edited by bankside; February 17th, 2013 at 08:28 PM.

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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    fair inclusion
    It seems to me that “fair inclusion” is materially different from “unfair exclusion.”

    It is my impression that the Offices of Minority & Women Inclusion stipulated in Dodd-Frank only affect firms doing business with the Federal Reserve, the Securities & Exchange Commission, and FDIC. Such firms may include banks, broker-dealers, registered investment advisors, hedge funds, and financial services firms or such other businesses that do business with the aforementioned federal government offices.

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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Ironically, most if the jobs the minorities want are created by white males, and their beloveted welfare comes from the taxes of white males. They not only bite the hand that feeds them,but they want to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs.
    How are you not racist again? Just because these jobs were *allegedly* made by white males and that welfare *allegedly* comes from white males, doesn't mean that they should be excluded from having said jobs or benefit from said programs. They're citizens that follow laws and do their jobs just like everyone else.

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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    ^ It is like Benvolio always has a gun pointing at his foot and no matter how hard he tries.....he can't help but pull that trigger.

    Even the merest shred of credibility that he might have in railing against all the things he does......completely disintegrates when he inevitably exposes the real reason for his anger and frustration.

    He apparently thinks that all brown folk are freeloaders taking a ride on the white man's dime. He is afraid of being displaced by someone who isn't a white, anglo-saxon protestant and of seeing 'his' America transformed by blacks and hispanics.

    All the other words are just window dressing around racism.

  37. #137

    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by Nemothepanda View Post
    How are you not racist again? Just because these jobs were *allegedly* made by white males and that welfare *allegedly* comes from white males, doesn't mean that they should be excluded from having said jobs or benefit from said programs. They're citizens that follow laws and do their jobs just like everyone else.
    The question is, why should white males be EXCLUDED from all those jobs, while a preference is given to others, including recent immigrants? Is that not a racist policy? Why is it racist to object to a racist law? How can that be consistent with the Constitutional requirement of equalrotection of the law.

  38. #138
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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    The question is, why should white males be EXCLUDED from all those jobs, while a preference is given to others, including recent immigrants? Is that not a racist policy? Why is it racist to object to a racist law? How can that be consistent with the Constitutional requirement of equalrotection of the law.
    You haven't shown any form of exclusion. So you're going in circles.

  39. #139

    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    You haven't shown any form of exclusion. So you're going in circles.
    The statute requires their exclusion to the maximum extent possible.

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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    The statute requires their exclusion to the maximum extent possible.
    Fair inclusion =/= white exclusion.

    These policies exist to combat a pervasive, extremely well documented trend which is stronger the further back in time you go to give first preference to white males even over other qualified candidates. As an example of fair inclusion, look at Japan, where women past age 30 or so are widely stated to be "unhirable" because employers presume they will not be as reliable as a male hire, because pretty soon they'll marry and want to have kids and make those their first priority.

    That's the kind of exclusion that actually happens, particularly when no policy or regulation of fair inclusion is present. Factors beyond pure capability to do the job end up being the deciding factor in whom to hire among a set of qualified individuals, such as whether or not you think women really make good engineers or black people really have the right attitude for the officeplace. There is no exclusion of white males in U.S. hiring, nor does policy call for it, nor have you demonstrated that it has.

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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    The statute requires their exclusion to the maximum extent possible.
    Jesus. You just don't give up do you? You've been shown to be motivated by race issues...it has been proven to you repeatedly that statutory inclusion does not mean exclusion and you still just won't give in.

    Would you at least acknowledge that the centuries old preference and practise of white males empowering and hiring of white males created an EXCLUSIONARY environment for all other races and sexes. By its own design, it was self-perpetuating juggernaut until it required legislation (or civil war) to bust this little club.

    If you can't understand that inclusion of others does not equal exclusion of some...then you are apparently intellectually unwilling to accept a fundamental and simple premise.

    If you are just pissy because you don't like the fact that a larger field of contenders means that the mediocre are no longer just automatically promoted by birthright of being a white male, then all I can say is...good on ya and all the others over there at Stormfront. You deserve whatever comes.

  42. #142
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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    Jesus. You just don't give up do you? You've been shown to be motivated by race issues...it has been proven to you repeatedly that statutory inclusion does not mean exclusion and you still just won't give in.

    Would you at least acknowledge that the centuries old preference and practise of white males empowering and hiring of white males created an EXCLUSIONARY environment for all other races and sexes. By its own design, it was self-perpetuating juggernaut until it required legislation (or civil war) to bust this little club.

    If you can't understand that inclusion of others does not equal exclusion of some...then you are apparently intellectually unwilling to accept a fundamental and simple premise.

    If you are just pissy because you don't like the fact that a larger field of contenders means that the mediocre are no longer just automatically promoted by birthright of being a white male, then all I can say is...good on ya and all the others over there at Stormfront. You deserve whatever comes.
    I believe this is one of those cases where "removal of historical and unfair privilege" = "discrimination." In some white guys' heads, that's always how they're going to view it, because they simply view a past where wealth and power were dominated by white men almost exclusively to have come about because of merit and some pseudosciency belief in social darwinism. And that we're now in a "PC age" that is trying to artificially undo that and force "unmerit" over "merit" for the sake of "inclusion" or "diversity."

    As far as they're concerned, a past where the privileged status of white men was nearly exclusive and unchallenged is the proof enough in their minds that they are correct in their view that white people are more intelligent, industrious, creative and hardworking, and they simply have to suffer through being discriminated against todaybecause of it at the behest of minorities.

    Not sure what we can do about that mindset except wait for it to die out. And it will.
    Last edited by xbuzzerx; February 18th, 2013 at 03:11 PM.

  43. #143

    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    You are simply ignoring the words of the statute. If you include women and minorities " to the maximum extent possible", you necessarily exclude white men "to the maximum extent possible" DUH It is not open to debate.

  44. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    You are simply ignoring the words of the statute. If you include women and minorities " to the maximum extent possible", you necessarily exclude white men "to the maximum extent possible" DUH It is not open to debate.
    And that's a problem for you?
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    You are simply ignoring the words of the statute. If you include women and minorities " to the maximum extent possible", you necessarily exclude white men "to the maximum extent possible" DUH It is not open to debate.
    This is a specious argument.

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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    No, let's assume, for the sake of Benvolio's mental health, that it's correct. Everyone non-white has been brutally discriminated against for centuries in Western society. So, if - as Benvolio claims - total inclusion is impossible, and it's either white or non-white, I'd say it's still only fair to switch it around for a while to compensate, no?
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    You are simply ignoring the words of the statute. If you include women and minorities " to the maximum extent possible", you necessarily exclude white men "to the maximum extent possible" DUH It is not open to debate.
    No it's not really up for debate. You will see what you want to see - to justify your racism. Not up for debate at all.
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  48. #148
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Again, some white guy getting racist perks in 1868 does sweet fuck all for me. Even if you could demonstrate that was my direct ancestor, the intervening time and chance have, at least in my family, clearly deprived me of my "inheritance" of "white privilege." And I'm not going to give up the same chance at a job or the same chance for advancement on account of my skin colour because some dead people were unfair to other dead people. It's not the right approach.

    Opposition to affirmative discrimination has nothing to do with social Darwinism or the idea that the social hierarchy of centuries past was correct or dignified or justified. Of course it wasn't. But you'd have to believe in social Darwinism to suggest that minority candidates need to have white people blocked and excluded before they have a chance of competing. I don't see how it isn't as offensive to ethnic minorities as it is to white men.

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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Again, some white guy getting racist perks in 1868 does sweet fuck all for me. Even if you could demonstrate that was my direct ancestor, the intervening time and chance have, at least in my family, clearly deprived me of my "inheritance" of "white privilege." And I'm not going to give up the same chance at a job or the same chance for advancement on account of my skin colour because some dead people were unfair to other dead people. It's not the right approach.

    Opposition to affirmative discrimination has nothing to do with social Darwinism or the idea that the social hierarchy of centuries past was correct or dignified or justified. Of course it wasn't. But you'd have to believe in social Darwinism to suggest that minority candidates need to have white people blocked and excluded before they have a chance of competing. I don't see how it isn't as offensive to ethnic minorities as it is to white men.
    This is a zero sum mindset presuming everyone today is on an equal footing with equal resources, equal education or equal access to opportunity which is premature. This isn't a new argument, it's probably the classic argument against any kind of system, including scholarships, to try to help redress the imbalances in income, opportunity and education for historically disadvantaged groups.

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    Re: Native American PWNS immigration protest

    And affirmative action in the States SOLELY applies to people wanting the public dime. Everyone else can hire as many neo-nazis they want.
    ATTACK OF THE LIBERAL ELITE

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