Native American PWNS immigration protest

[HoodedRat]

Truth is, in the UK, the only really historically native peoples are probably the descendents of the Celts, driven to Wales, Scotland and the more further recesses of our country.

The 'Celts' were johnny-come-latelys to this island ... they only came here a couple of thousand years ago ... this place was already inhabited long before they arrived.

Personally, I think the successive waves of immigration during the past few millenia is probably one of the best things to have happened to Britain.

[Benvolio]

The 'Celts' were johnny-come-latelys to this island ... they only came here a couple of thousand years ago ... this place was already inhabited long before they arrived.

Personally, I think the successive waves of immigration during the past few millenia is probably one of the best things to have happened to Britain.

I cannot agree. The Anglo Saxon invasion was a catastrophe for the Celtic/Roman Britons. Vikings killed and plundered many thousands. The Norman Conquest was one of the worst things ever to befall a people. Now immigration .....
The Celtic invasion was probably as hard on the prior Neolithic people, but no one kept a record.

[bankside]

I cannot agree. The Anglo Saxon invasion was a catastrophe for the Celtic/Roman Britons. Vikings killed and plundered many thousands. The Norman Conquest was one of the worst things ever to befall a people. Now immigration .....
The Celtic invasion was probably as hard on the prior Neolithic people, but no one kept a record.

Don't worry, benvolio, he's just saying that because he's one of them. It's to be expected.

[FuryOfFirestorm]

Benvolio, you've never demonstrated through anything other than your say-so that a protectionist, isolationist seal the borders approach would help the lower classes in the country. There's plenty of evidence it would seriously hurt the economy, and virtually no proof it would help it. You say it over and over expecting people to accept your say-so on the matter.

Maybe he keeps repeating the same lie over and over in hopes that it eventually becomes the truth?

Speaking of truth, the guy in that video gave all those bitches a nice big slice of bitter truth. Preach it, my Native American brother!

[rareboy]

BUT X-rays, insulin, penicillin, and aspirin were all developed PRIOR TO SOCIALIZED MEDICINE. Even now when those countries research, they do it with the knowledge that they can hope to recoup their investment by selling into to huge US market without government price controls. Those corporation heads must be lying awake at night worrying about the catastrophy which has befallen America and the world. Where will they do without us?

- - - Updated - - -

BUT X-rays, insulin, penicillin, and aspirin were all developed PRIOR TO SOCIALIZED MEDICINE. Even now when those countries research, they do it with the knowledge that they can hope to recoup their investment by selling into to huge US market without government price controls. Those corporation heads must be lying awake at night worrying about the catastrophy which has befallen America and the world. Where will they do without us?

Bullshit.

Last I checked, Canada, France, Germany and Holland and Britain as well as Japan all have socialized medicine and the medical devices and drugs and everything just keep coming. Siemens, Phillips, Toshiba and Samsung among others sell more across Europe and Asia than they do to the US. It is the universal health care approach that has helped support the innovation in the industries.

The reason your argument is total bullshit is that it is actually socialized medicine that built the strength of these companies. Without the entire populations of many nations having access to the drugs and technology, the companies that produce them would have a very, very tiny market indeed. You are ignorant of how the rest of the world works...that much is always nakedly evident. You really should stop embarrassing yourself. Really.

[rareboy]

Well, rareboy, your objection is not well taken. Scroll through this or any other thread and try to find a liberal post which does not contain an personal insult against the Conservative members. No big deal. I don't respect them enough to care about their insults.

I could care less how you take my objections. You continue to present bullshit arguments and claims....never backed up by sources.....you continue to hammer away at all of us with your barely disguised racist and xenophobic jingoism in thread after thread. and then expect otherwise.

But tell me where I personally insulted you.

And stop trying to derail the thread.

[JayHawk]

Wow Benvolio has a friend who can search the internets and find opinions to post... yay

[Benvolio]

Nonsense, I have often given sources. But if the source does not agree with you, you brush it aside. So why bother. The basic facts are indisputable. If you have too many poor people, then import millions more, then you have more poor people than before.

[bankside]

Benvolio it is clear you are neither an economist nor even a capitalist. "Too many poor people" is another way of saying "under utilised mismanaged human resource opportunity." If you can't see how to profitably invest in that resource, for mutual benefit, then you'd not make it as a manager either. This is an opportunity that can be spotted after even an introductory Economics 101 course.

In fact the arguments you present were generally only heard from 1970's trade unionists, whose moment in the sun fighting for adequate working conditions had long passed, and when they had nothing left to do but cling to relevance by spewing populist protectionist economic claptrap.

If you do decide to do some remedial studies of economics, I suggest you begin with the "Lump of Labour Fallacy."

[Benvolio]

At one time, the poor might have been a resource, but with high employment burdens in the US, new technologies, and high foreign competition, it is no longer a realistic view. It certainly cannot justify the massive importation of new "Resources",far faster than we can find jobs for our own people.

[Benvolio]

I could care less how you take my objections. You continue to present bullshit arguments and claims....never backed up by sources.....you continue to hammer away at all of us with your barely disguised racist and xenophobic jingoism in thread after thread. and then expect otherwise.

But tell me where I personally insulted you.

And stop trying to derail the thread.

Your invariably rude posts are insulting and intended by you to be so. It should be obvious that I am indifferent to liberal insults or I would not be here. But you are hardly in the position to take high ground on insults.

[HenryReardon]

At one time, the poor might have been a resource, but with high employment burdens in the US, new technologies, and high foreign competition, it is no longer a realistic view. It certainly cannot justify the massive importation of new "Resources",far faster than we can find jobs for our own people.

True, if we send 12 million people back where they came from a lot of jobs will become available. Of course, some people might have to start mowing their own yards again.

[rareboy]

Your invariably rude posts are insulting and intended by you to be so. It should be obvious that I am indifferent to liberal insults or I would not be here. But you are hardly in the position to take high ground on insults.

And most of your positions and posts are an affront to human values and decency as well as common sense and logic most of the time....so I guess that evens us all up, doesn't it?

We get it. You don't like brown immigrants from anywhere. They are going to change the complexion of your country quite literally.

[Rolyo85]

Also, which fallacy is "I provide sources, but you never accept them when they don't say what you want"? Because, Benvolio, that is factually incorrect. You ONLY EVER provide sources from rabid right wing places, and those are unacceptable, and you know it. Same way as you don't accept - nor should accept - rabid left wing sources. But there is a big group of semi-neutral and more centrist places that you can cite. Except, you can't, because you never go to those.

[Benvolio]

Nice theory but it won't wash. Liberals are so bigoted on the question of immigration and other subjects, that any source negative on immigration is certain to be labeled far right, racist, xenophobic etc.

[xbuzzerx]

Nice theory but it won't wash. Liberals are so bigoted on the question of immigration and other subjects, that any source negative on immigration is certain to be labeled far right, racist, xenophobic etc.

"Bigoted"? Against whom?

[CowboyBob]

True, if we send 12 million people back where they came from a lot of jobs will become available. Of course, some people might have to start mowing their own yards again.

Of course, and some people might not have doctors, nurses, physicists, architects, mathematicians that the country has a shortage of. Go to your local hospital and see how many foreign doctors are on staff. There's a huge shortage of health care professionals and these "immigrants" are filling a desperate need.

Because the right wing republicans are slashing education funding so the millionaires and billionaires can have more money to hide in the Cayman Islands and Switzerland, Americans aren't educating and training professionals like they should. It's a generation of fast food service workers.

[Benvolio]

The 12 millions are illegals. Not too many Doctors, we assume. I have always said we should allow doctors, nurses and scientists. We probably cannot send back all the illegals and perhaps should not try. But we should not reward them with citizenship until we stop the flood.

[xbuzzerx]

The 12 millions are illegals. Not too many Doctors, we assume. I have always said we should allow doctors, nurses and scientists. We probably cannot send back all the illegals and perhaps should not try. But we should not reward them with citizenship until we stop the flood.

Many people immigrate here either on, or before joining, programs to join the medical profession. Here in California the hospitals are absolutely packed with first-generation Filipina nurses. They have to be trained here-- they came over and became nurses, not the other way around.

[Telstra]

I would think that bringing up the Native American experience would be a reason to become more vehemently anti-immigration, considering how well it worked out for them.

Maybe Native Americans looks like Mexicans, the more Mexicans the better for them ?

[xbuzzerx]

Maybe Native Americans looks like Mexicans, the more Mexicans the better for them ?

I pointed out earlier in the thread that many or most Latinos ARE part Native.

The concept that hispanic mestizo people moving across borders is some kind of alien invasion is a distinctly white American panic.

[Telstra]

I pointed out earlier in the thread that many or most Latinos ARE part Native.

The concept that hispanic mestizo people moving across borders is some kind of alien invasion is a distinctly white American panic.

It would be tragic if they stop and search Native Americans for papers.

[HenryReardon]

. Go to your local hospital and see how many foreign doctors are on staff. There's a huge shortage of health care professionals and these "immigrants" are filling a desperate need.

.

Oh, sure. We're being overrun with Mexican peasants who are licensed Doctors. That's the funniest thing I've heard all day.

[HenryReardon]

We get it. You don't like brown immigrants from anywhere. They are going to change the complexion of your country quite literally.

No, you absolutely do not get it. We don't like ILLEGAL immigrants from anywhere. Skin color is irrelevant, and legality is everything.

[HenryReardon]

[Quoted Post: Removed]

Nasty? Because, like most Americans, I don't like people breaking our laws to get here?
[Text: Removed]

[HenryReardon]

Go to your local hospital and see how many foreign doctors are on staff. There's a huge shortage of health care professionals and these "immigrants" are filling a desperate need.


.

Any doctor or nurse in an American hospital will be in the country legally, unless of course, they used forged papers.

You are dissembling in an attempt to shift the focus. Legal immigrants are not the .Illegal immigrants are the problem.

Try to focus on the problem.

[Rolyo85]

If the Indiana farm rednecks can be doctors, why not Mexican "peasants"?

[bankside]

My first reaction to illegal immigrants is "round them all up and deport them" to be quite honest. I believe in an open immigration process, but I also believe in the rule of law and people waiting patiently while they follow the rules. The thing is however, with millions and millions of people illegally in the country, it is clear this has been allowed all along with a nod and a wink.

To me this is kind of a statute of limitations thing. If someone has been in a country long enough to raise children, the ship kind of sailed on enforcement; their lives should not be ripped apart because of past failures under multiple administrations to enforce the law. Some kind of penalty, absolutely, just to preserve the distinction between legal and illegal, but not deportation and exclusion.

[Telstra]

No, you absolutely do not get it. We don't like ILLEGAL immigrants from anywhere. Skin color is irrelevant, and legality is everything.

Over here,
lots of "Illegals" are by plane, have two passports and can stay as long as they like.

[xbuzzerx]

lmao Henry. There've been illegal Canadians in the U.S. and no one cares because good luck telling them from anyone else.

[rareboy]

No, you absolutely do not get it. We don't like ILLEGAL immigrants from anywhere. Skin color is irrelevant, and legality is everything.

Oh don't make us laugh. As long as someone is white and can speak English and of course. a white nationalist....you'd be pushing for citizenship for them in a whip stitch.

And face it, in your Ayn Rand world, Mr. Rearden, it is every person for themselves. And that includes the immigrants.

Typically, for the existentially and morally bankrupt 'objectivist' acolytes of this hypocritical sociopath, you want to be able to do whatever you goddamned well want to without interference from the government or anyone else...but you want rules for everybody else.

[Benvolio]

If the immigrants were white, the liberals would suddenly oppose them. "WAIT! These immigrants are taking jobs away from African Americans and Hispanics! They are contributing to our environmental problems, our school problems, our healthcare problems, the crime problem. White immigrants are hurting America. Woe is us."

[Rolyo85]

If the immigrants were white, the liberals would suddenly oppose them. "WAIT! These immigrants are taking jobs away from African Americans and Hispanics! They are contributing to our environmental problems, our school problems, our healthcare problems, the crime problem. White immigrants are hurting America. Woe is us."

Yeah that's pathetic bullshit. Your racism is well documented but you can't find a SINGLE instance if libs discriminating against whites. So this is nothing but lies and slander.

[Nemothepanda]

If the immigrants were white, the liberals would suddenly oppose them. "WAIT! These immigrants are taking jobs away from African Americans and Hispanics! They are contributing to our environmental problems, our school problems, our healthcare problems, the crime problem. White immigrants are hurting America. Woe is us."

Liberals hate white people? My, I've never heard that one before.

Immigrants aren't hurting anyone, in fact they do the opposite by bringing in "new blood" to the workforce and think-tank, along with contributing to the cosmopolitan culture. Not all immigrants, legal or otherwise, from Central and South America are impoverished laborers. Many are also educated specialists-workers that America desperately need since few native-born students want to take up a trade as most consider it "beneath" their station. I don't deny that illegal immigrants can cause problems, but that's only one issue with a process that has done nothing but good for this country.

[FuryOfFirestorm]

If the immigrants were white, the liberals would suddenly oppose them. "WAIT! These immigrants are taking jobs away from African Americans and Hispanics! They are contributing to our environmental problems, our school problems, our healthcare problems, the crime problem. White immigrants are hurting America. Woe is us."

[xbuzzerx]

If the immigrants were white, the liberals would suddenly oppose them. "WAIT! These immigrants are taking jobs away from African Americans and Hispanics! They are contributing to our environmental problems, our school problems, our healthcare problems, the crime problem. White immigrants are hurting America. Woe is us."

What are you talking about? Seriously, you just made this up. There's never been a liberal drive to reduce immigration from white countries in favor of nonwhite ones, excepting cases where people might have proposed expanding immigration or asylum status for particular countries in trouble due to current events.

[Benvolio]

Yeah that's pathetic bullshit. Your racism is well documented but you can't find a SINGLE instance if libs discriminating against whites. So this is nothing but lies and slander.

What I said was that IF the immigrants were white the liberals would be squawking. But yes, virtually all Democrat legislation contains an anti white element. For instance, the Dodd Frank Wall street "refrom" act requires agencies, financial organizations and contractors to avoid hiring white men to the "maximum extent possible" by hiring women and minorities to maximum extent possible.

[xbuzzerx]

What I said was that IF the immigrants were white the liberals would be squawking. But yes, virtually all Democrat legislation contains an anti white element. For instance, the Dodd Frank Wall street "refrom" act requires agencies, financial organizations and contractors to avoid hiring white men to the "maximum extent possible" by hiring women and minorities to maximum extent possible.

There are illegal white immigrants in the U.S.

They are a non-issue. Nobody talks about it. That's why your position is utter nonsense and shows your own bias that illegals are only hispanic. There's tons of illegal Canadians and Chinese in the U.S.

[Benvolio]

When Conservatives object to all immigration or all illegal immigration, you claim that it is racial. But when I reverse it and point our that liberals would object if the immigration was white, you claim the immigration is largely white. You can't have it both ways.
The fact is that I object to all immigration except a few doctors, nurses, and scientists, without regard to race.

[Rolyo85]

Nobody claimed immigration is largely white O.o (though, frankly, Hispanics are white, but nvm). And you haven't "pointed out" anything, you made a wild and ridiculous claim that has no substance in reality. You can only "point out" existing stuff, not things in your head.

[Rolyo85]

What I said was that IF the immigrants were white the liberals would be squawking. But yes, virtually all Democrat legislation contains an anti white element. For instance, the Dodd Frank Wall street "refrom" act requires agencies, financial organizations and contractors to avoid hiring white men to the "maximum extent possible" by hiring women and minorities to maximum extent possible.

It sucks to not be undeservingly privileged anymore, eh? Sorry if unfair advantage was your only way of getting by.

[Benvolio]

It sucks to not be undeservingly privileged anymore, eh? Sorry if unfair advantage was your only way of getting by.

You know nothing about my personal success. You have me at a disadvantage. If I discuss your status as you deserve I will be notified by the moderators.

[Rolyo85]

You know nothing about my personal success. You have me at a disadvantage. If I discuss your status as you deserve I will be notified by the moderators.

Sounds like it sucks to be you then ^_^

[opinterph]

Gentlemen, please dispense with the personal innuendo.

[rareboy]

If the immigrants were white, the liberals would suddenly oppose them. "WAIT! These immigrants are taking jobs away from African Americans and Hispanics! They are contributing to our environmental problems, our school problems, our healthcare problems, the crime problem. White immigrants are hurting America. Woe is us."

Once again...just utter drivel.

Liberals aren't opposing immigration.

Libertarians shouldn't be opposing immigration.

And the reforms to encourage the hiring of women and minorities? After centuries of institutionalized segregation, slavery and non-person status, it is sometimes necessary to level the playing field and to change attitudes by integration.

But you are never going to understand this, let alone be convinced. We all get it.

It is why discussion with you on this issue is sterile.

[Benvolio]

Once again...just utter drivel.

Liberals aren't opposing immigration.

Libertarians shouldn't be opposing immigration.

And the reforms to encourage the hiring of women and minorities? After centuries of institutionalized segregation, slavery and non-person status, it is sometimes necessary to level the playing field and to change attitudes by integration.

But you are never going to understand this, let alone be convinced. We all get it.

It is why discussion with you on this issue is sterile.

I said, IF immigrants were white, liberals would oppose it. It is no answer to say they do not now oppose immigration.
It is naive to think affirmative action is now to redress past wrongs. Giving AA to immigrants, facilitates discrimination against previous minorities, including African Americans.
It is not a coincidence that Democrat laws mandate hiring the groups which vote Democrat, which forbidding the hiring of white males, the group which least votes Democrats. You just don't get it.

[rareboy]

I said, IF immigrants were white, liberals would oppose it. It is no answer to say they do not now oppose immigration.
It is naive to think affirmative action is now to redress past wrongs. Giving AA to immigrants, facilitates discrimination against previous minorities, including African Americans.
It is not a coincidence that Democrat laws mandate hiring the groups which vote Democrat, which forbidding the hiring of white males, the group which least votes Democrats. You just don't get it.

So you just think that you can switch from saying that affirmative action for minorities and women is now tantamount to affirmative action for immigrants at the expense of affirmative action for blacks? HUH? What the fuck goes through your head when you are writing these types of arguments? The minorities category still also includes African Americans. How did it suddenly become about immigrants?

This is, by the way, the same bullshit argument that was used to discriminate against hiring Germans, Polish, Italian, Irish and a host of other populations when they first landed on the shores of the US.

Probably the same argument used against your ancestors at some point.

And you think that all this is just about buying votes?

Well get ready sunshine, because God's Own Party has apparently realized that they'd better start falling in line and stop being the party of angry old white guys like you if they have any intention of governing.

[Benvolio]

- - - Updated - - -

So you just think that you can switch from saying that affirmative action for minorities and women is now tantamount to affirmative action for immigrants at the expense of affirmative action for blacks? HUH? What the fuck goes through your head when you are writing these types of arguments? The minorities category still also includes African Americans. How did it suddenly become about immigrants?

This is, by the way, the same bullshit argument that was used to discriminate against hiring Germans, Polish, Italian, Irish and a host of other populations when they first landed on the shores of the US.

Probably the same argument used against your ancestors at some point.

And you think that all this is just about buying votes?

Well get ready sunshine, because God's Own Party has apparently realized that they'd better start falling in line and stop being the party of angry old white guys like you if they have any intention of governing.

As always, you do not understand. Immigrants legally just off the boat also qualify for affirmative action and it is illegal to discriminate in favor of existing Americans. When an immigrant is hired instead of an existing minority member,it is affirmative action but it does not redress past wrongs, and is just more discrimination with different beneficiaries. It destroys the alleged purpose of affirmative action.
And no, when the Irish and all those other groups came there was no affirmative action so it is silly to say the same arguments were made. But then as now, immigration facilitated discrimination against blacks by providing an available substitute.

[rareboy]

Just how far do you have to reach to be able to make the kind of point you are making?

The idea that affirmative action is an affront to blacks or one supposes, the millions of Latino Americans that were born in the US is laughable.

You expect a single one of us to believe that you care or even think that white immigrants in the past took the jobs of the slaves and their descendants? You really, actually want us to believe this?

You want to convince me that a white legal immigrant from Europe is putting at risk the employment of African Americans or Latino Americans because of affirmative action? You want us to believe that these would be the people targeted for affirmative action hiring? Where do affirmative action plans use the words 'make sure you focus on giving jobs to all the newly landed immigrants right off the boat?' To be blunt, if someone arrives in the US as a legal immigrant with qualifications to do a job, then there is no reason why anyone should discriminate against them.

You may actually swallow the load of tripe you're serving up....but c'mon. Give the rest of us credit for being smarter than that.

[xbuzzerx]

I said, IF immigrants were white, liberals would oppose it. It is no answer to say they do not now oppose immigration.

Yes, you've said that twice now, and that's just something you made up off the cuff, and there's no support for it in history or anywhere else. Plenty of immigration IS white, so this whole "IF immigration was white liberals would oppose it" thing is bull.