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  1. #201
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    So I'm going to quote you again since you obviously didn't remember what you said.

    Seems like you did mention military there. My point still accurately stands. The US is the largest exporter of firearms in the world, both in the military and civilian sectors. It is lunacy to think that many of those civilian guns do not go to civilians in other countries and that many of those military guns do not wind up in civilian hands. We are the largest contributor to the problem.
    Of course I mentioned military -- it's kind of hard to point out that you dragged the military into a subject that didn't include it without using the word.

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    If you're going down that route, then it excludes all of today's modern firearms and applies on to muzzle loaded muskets and sidearms. Also, since there wasn't a standing army when the Constitution was written, one could argue that a) we cannot have a standing military or b) the standing military satisfies the requirement for a well-regulated militia and thus no personal firearm ownership is needed. The right of all arms is being addressed by the amendment, which is why no specific arms were mentioned. And that right is dictated by the need for a well-regulated militia. If the need for a well-regulated militia is no longer there, then that right is no longer needed. That is the whole purpose in adding the first half of the second amendment.
    No, it doesn't. I'll try again: the Second Amendment means the standard weapons of the common soldier. That means -- to go worldwide -- something like the AK-47, a 9mm sidearm, and a knife. Or are you seriously claiming that the Founding Fathers and the Framers were so dim that they didn't realize there would be advances in weaponry (which they had witnessed in their lifetimes!)?

    One thing is certain, that they weren't so dim as to confuse a standing army with the militia; they believed that the militia was the proper counter to the standing army, which they saw as an instrument of tyranny. They knew the difference between the general militia, an organized or formal militia, and a standing army -- for that matter, so does US law, which makes clear that the standing army is NOT militia, and that the National Guard is formal militia up to the point when it is called up by the federal government, at which point it ceases to be militia. Just read the writings of the time, and you'll see that they held that the mere existence of a standing army was sufficient cause for the citizenry to be active and training and well-armed (part of being well-regulated) and on the alert.

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    Again, can you name a politician that has advocated for or introduced legislation to take away all firearms? You're arguing a position that no politician has taken. Yes, if you want to pass legislation, you're going to get support for that legislation from anyone who is willing to give it. That doesn't mean you are accepting their whole platform as your own. There is a large cross-section of people who support better regulations for firearms and they represent a wide range of views. You're choosing the most extreme view and saying that any action taken at all will lead to that end result. That is a slippery slope and it is a logical fallacy.
    Advocated for legislation? Of course not -- they're not fools. But every one of them who is pals with the likes of the Brady campaign (or whatever they call themselves these days) is aiming at disarmament of "mister and misses America".

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    George Washington didn't write the Constitution. There have been MANY literary works written in regards to the interpretation of the Second Amendment, some in favor and some opposed. The Supreme Court has ruled (and obviously taken well-regulated to mean) that there can be restrictions on firearm sales and regulations put on their use and their possession. In fact, other than straight up across-the-board bans, they have upheld almost every regulation passed, including the previous ban on assault rifles both federally and in various states.
    George Washington was commander of the combined militias of the colonies. If anyone knew what the term meant, he did. Since he wrote in those terms to the Continental Congress, he knew that they understood it in the same way he did.

    As for regulations, now that the Court has finally gotten around to tackling the Second head on, they're affirming exactly what numerous decisions before have set out: that the right to keep and bear arms is individual, that it applies in private and public, that its exercise cannot be made burdensome, and most importantly that its being a right supersedes any detrimental effects.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  2. #202
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    Well then arms is not a term you can modify to mean today's modern weaponry. If you're going to take arms into the context of the period, then they were obviously referring to muzzle loaded, black powder firearms. They don't encompass semi-automatic weapons. They don't include pump action shotguns. They don't include high capacity magazines. They don't include laser/optical sights. None of that is included in the Second Amendment so all of that should be illegal. It's an arbitrary redefining of the terms of the Second Amendment which is a gun nuts trick whereby they can justify having whatever firearms they want while excluding anything that may weaken their "firearms uninhibited for everyone" mantra.
    They specifically said that they meant the ordinary arms of the common soldier.

    I don't understand this liberal penchant for ignoring standard procedures of scholarship and assuming blithely that the people who wrote the Constitution were both intellectually dim and totally disconnected from their society. It's fundamentalism at its worst: the assumption that an older document was written for you, to you, in your terms.

    The SCOTUS has already acknowledged that the Framers weren't a bunch of dims, when they took pains to examine whether a shotgun was of military use: they didn't ask whether the Framers knew of such a weapon, but whether it fit the Framers intent of the standard weapons of a common soldier; in fact they were generous by considering whether it had any military use at all, with the implication that if it did, it was protected under the Second Amendment.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  3. #203
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Baloney. I am not part of any militia, nor is anyone else here unless they are in the national guard. Chris Dorner is a nutcase with major mental problems. He's not fighting against anyone for anything real except for his own selfish bullshit. Please read up on the story. It's not that difficult... it's very well covered.
    If you claim to not be part of the militia, you're either not a citizen, you're physically incompetent to handle a firearm, or you're in violation of the US Code. All able-bodied citizens of a certain age are the militia, by federal law.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  4. #204
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    This is so far out in fantasy land I'm not even going to try to reach for an answer. I'll just make one point: you just demonstrated that the one with the terrible fear of his neighbor is YOU.
    Kulindahr, you have no answer because you have no case. Ultimately, despite your protestations about their leadership, you toe the NRA line, subscribe to their empty rhetoric, and your lifetime membership is the shoe that fits.

    I don't fear my fellow citizens, because I know in case of any disagreement we are expecting to meet each other in a battle of wits rather than in a hail of bullets. By contrast, you fear the day that some nut-job with a gun shows up on your doorstep unbidden and unprovoked, and your whole plan for self preservation consists in hoping you're a better shot.
    Last edited by bankside; February 11th, 2013 at 11:09 PM.

  5. #205
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    And even that relies on the assumption it can be seen coming.
    Ugh. Don't even get me started. Probably the biggest thing where this (huge but not universal) chunk of Americans need to wake up is with this idea that guns actually work as advertised. They just don't offer people the protection they think they're buying.

  6. #206
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    How many of them would be alive now if one or more of the teachers had been armed?
    Likely the same number, as the shooting took seconds - nowhere near enough time for anyone to actually do anything, with or without a gun available to them.

    There is a reason why somehow those violent sprees are almost never prevented by a responsible gun-owner, even they occasionally do happen around people with guns.
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  7. #207
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Rights are intrinsic -- and that is a fact, one resting on the fact that each person owns himself. That IS reality, regardless of all the ideologues who have other notions.
    Nope, that's ideology. Facts are quantifiable, documentable things. This is your fanatic Ayn Randian opinion. Nothing more and nothing less. And regardless of how much Holy Judgment you will put in your tone, the message remains just as flimsy.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  8. #208
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    There is no personal right to a nuke, any more than there is to a tank. That's all part of the term "militia".
    We call that "making shit up"
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  9. #209
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    There's no hypocrisy at all, just reality.

    You, OTOH, are basing your position on lies, such as that in the middle of your second line.
    No, it's actually fairly hypocritical. You advocate free unrestrained gun-ownership, yet cherry pick what it applies to. As for the rest, it is not a position based on lies, it is based on provable fact
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  10. #210
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    "Arms" is not a term you can just take and define as you wish apart from the context. "Keep and bear arms" defines, by its common use at the time, the meaning of the term "arms", which was the personal weapons of the common soldier. Now, if you can show me that the common soldier in, say, NATO, carries a nuke around as standard weaponry, then I'll concede your claim. But as it is, you're arbitrarily redefining the terms of the Second Amendment -- which is a lawyer's trick whereby anything at all can be made to mean whatever you wish.
    This is - again - an opinion you are having, that is probably shared by others, and most certainly not shared by all. "Arms" means weapons. What you THINK those weapons are "supposed" to be is quite irrelevant. The truth is, you flip-flop on this because at one point you insist those are only the things a common soldier would have, but then you claim it should be anything that the government could throw at us.

    When the reality is so much simpler. The simplistic and clean way the Second is worded means one of two things - either ONLY muskets and sabres are allowed, or EVERY AND ANY weapon ever invented is. Anything else is your opinion, which, frankly, is worth less and less on the subject.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  11. #211
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    This is so far out in fantasy land I'm not even going to try to reach for an answer. I'll just make one point: you just demonstrated that the one with the terrible fear of his neighbor is YOU.
    Incorrect. And SUDDENLY, when faced with actual counter-ideology, you fail to write a ten paragraph response. Interesting.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  12. #212
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    They specifically said that they meant the ordinary arms of the common soldier.

    I don't understand this liberal penchant for ignoring standard procedures of scholarship and assuming blithely that the people who wrote the Constitution were both intellectually dim and totally disconnected from their society. It's fundamentalism at its worst: the assumption that an older document was written for you, to you, in your terms.

    The SCOTUS has already acknowledged that the Framers weren't a bunch of dims, when they took pains to examine whether a shotgun was of military use: they didn't ask whether the Framers knew of such a weapon, but whether it fit the Framers intent of the standard weapons of a common soldier; in fact they were generous by considering whether it had any military use at all, with the implication that if it did, it was protected under the Second Amendment.
    No offense, but nobody gives a fuck what they meant, just like many people don't give a fuck what the Bible's writers meant. The ONLY thing that matters is the actual wording, and what it means for modern day law.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  13. #213
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    There's no hypocrisy at all, just reality.

    You, OTOH, are basing your position on lies, such as that in the middle of your second line.
    Kul... it's very hard to take you seriously on this topic when you define the Constitution, an in some ways very dated document that was never by its framers intended to be locked and crystallized for all time in the most rigid understanding possible from the perspective of the context of 1776, as being a bible of the universal, natural human rights which existed before the Constitution and transcend laws or practical considerations of time passing and technology and society changing-- AND as having only one interpretation (yours), and then from that position you say that everyone else is lying.

    We're not lying, we're not being dishonest. We're not "spouting falsehoods." Those statements are only true working from a perspective that you are unquestionably right in your interpretation and no one else is, end of discussion. That's clearly what you believe but it's not what the rest of us believe and we're not being "dishonest" in what we're saying.

  14. #214

    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    The founding fathers believed strongly because the were all too aware of the tyranny which result when individuals have the authority to change the law or Constitution. They believed " ours should be a government of laws and not of men". Laws are to changed by the Democratic process, not by the whim of judges or Presidents.

  15. #215
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    The founding fathers believed strongly because the were all too aware of the tyranny which result when individuals have the authority to change the law or Constitution. They believed " ours should be a government of laws and not of men". Laws are to changed by the Democratic process, not by the whim of judges or Presidents.
    You are totally correct. Laws are also to be changed by the democratic process and not by enabling our mentally ill to get guns and shoot at us out of some antiquated notion that we are going to fight our own government with handguns.

    I'll never understand people who use that excuse-- and it's an excuse-- when we can't even get a high voter turnout. If people truly care so much about the direction of government they'd ensure through their votes that they never have the kind of government they'd ever need to worry about fighting in the streets with firearms.

  16. #216
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    You are totally correct. Laws are also to be changed by the democratic process and not by enabling our mentally ill to get guns and shoot at us out of some antiquated notion that we are going to fight our own government with handguns.

    I'll never understand people who use that excuse-- and it's an excuse-- when we can't even get a high voter turnout. If people truly care so much about the direction of government they'd ensure through their votes that they never have the kind of government they'd ever need to worry about fighting in the streets with firearms.


    Yeah, it's really hypocritical to bitch and moan about the need to fight the government, yet not be bothered to go vote for that government.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  17. #217
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Baloney. That's twisting it. There is no "militia" asides from the national guard (technically), and maybe the police. It's old language that doesn't apply to the real world.
    Federal law defines the militia, and it's all able-bodied citizens between 16 and 60 (unless they've changed it recently). Federal law recognizes the National Guard as units of the formal militia, being under state authority but being citizen-soldiers. They cease to be militia when the federal government calls them up, because they are then standing army. But the rest of us remain the militia, regardless of whether we even own a firearm.

    That is, after all, the authority for a military draft: since we are the militia, the federal government has the authority to call us up for service.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  18. #218
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Kulindahr, you have no answer because you have no case. Ultimately, despite your protestations about their leadership, you toe the NRA line, subscribe to their empty rhetoric, and your lifetime membership is the shoe that fits.

    I don't fear my fellow citizens, because I know in case of any disagreement we are expecting to meet each other in a battle of wits rather than in a hail of bullets. By contrast, you fear the day that some nut-job with a gun shows up on your doorstep unbidden and unprovoked, and your whole plan for self preservation consists in hoping you're a better shot.
    Your whole case rests on the assumption that the reports of violent crime daily are false, or that you are somehow immune, or that you just don't care to take responsibility for yourself.

    Carrying a firearm is no different than having air bags or getting a flu shot: all three are about facing reality and doing something to take responsibility.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  19. #219
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Nope, that's ideology. Facts are quantifiable, documentable things. This is your fanatic Ayn Randian opinion. Nothing more and nothing less. And regardless of how much Holy Judgment you will put in your tone, the message remains just as flimsy.
    No matter how much you deny it, self-ownership is a fact. It's observable and demonstrable, not just psychologically but medically.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  20. #220
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    We call that "making shit up"
    So sound scholarship is now "making shit up" when you don't like it.

    "Militia" and "keep and bear arms" are terms that had specific meanings when the Second Amendment was framed and established. That you keep yourself ignorant of those meanings doesn't give a license to dismiss those meanings.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  21. #221
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    No, it's actually fairly hypocritical. You advocate free unrestrained gun-ownership, yet cherry pick what it applies to. As for the rest, it is not a position based on lies, it is based on provable fact
    Wonderful -- you lie about me, then lie about me more, and finally lie about your previous lies.

    Seems you're benvolio's mirror twin.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  22. #222
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    This is - again - an opinion you are having, that is probably shared by others, and most certainly not shared by all. "Arms" means weapons. What you THINK those weapons are "supposed" to be is quite irrelevant. The truth is, you flip-flop on this because at one point you insist those are only the things a common soldier would have, but then you claim it should be anything that the government could throw at us.

    When the reality is so much simpler. The simplistic and clean way the Second is worded means one of two things - either ONLY muskets and sabres are allowed, or EVERY AND ANY weapon ever invented is. Anything else is your opinion, which, frankly, is worth less and less on the subject.
    It's tiresome how you reject reality. Those terms had a specific meaning. That meaning is plain from rudimentary scholarship. That you aren't willing to tackle the thought required to see the meaning does not grant you the authority to make the words mean what you want.

    To "keep and bear arms" meant to have and carry/use the standard arms of a common soldier -- that's a fact about the whole concept of militia, and it's what the amendment protects. There is no contradiction with the fact that the militia is entitled to possess any weapons that the military may, in order to be able to exercise the right to insurrection.

    Your "solution" is simplistic, even childish, the sort of thing a lazy mind latches onto rather than do any thinking. One only need read the writings of the time to know that "only muskets and sabres are allowed" is idiocy -- and the same writings make your "EVERY AND ANY weapon ever invented" moronic.

    The truth is very simple: the militia concept held that weapons fall into two categories, the personal, and the rest. Personal arms are those which the ordinary soldier would keep and bear, i.e. have and maintain in useful condition, and carry with a view toward use -- the term is the same as used in the Amendment, indicating that those are what the people, all the individual citizens,are entitled to and are protected by the Constitution. The rest belong to the militia, not to individuals -- they fall into a category of a corporate right, one exercisable only within the order of the militia system. It's why militias could, and did, have cannon and mortars and such, but individuals did not. And that meaning is the same today, except to fundamentalists who read the thing as though it was written yesterday and has no historical substance or background or foundation.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Incorrect. And SUDDENLY, when faced with actual counter-ideology, you fail to write a ten paragraph response. Interesting.
    LOL Your post just oozed fear of your neighbors! You somehow think that people with guns are likely to be vaulting your fence and interrupting your barbecue with violence. Unfortunately for you, the continuing increase in the number of people owning guns and carrying them regularly has shown that this is merely a cowardly whine put forth because there is no substance to work with. "Wild West" scenarios have not erupted as predicted -- yet you show that you still believe those fantasies.

    I keep bringing in the meaning of militia, etc., based on the writings of the time, and you label it "ideology". Now you're claiming that emotional unfounded fear of your neighbors is "ideology"!

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    No offense, but nobody gives a fuck what they meant, just like many people don't give a fuck what the Bible's writers meant. The ONLY thing that matters is the actual wording, and what it means for modern day law.
    No, only fools or liars don't care what it meant. Words have meaning, and the meaning is found only in one place: the intent of the writer. You didn't write those words, no one living today wrote those words, so what they see as meaning is irrelevant.

    You make the pre-novice's mistake concerning language, assuming that a given phoneme carries a given meaning and that the meaning you think it has is the only one there is. You thus contradict yourself when you assert "The ONLY thing that matters is the actual wording" while dismissing "what they meant", because what they meant to the writers IS the meaning of the actual wording -- or they would have worded it differently.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Kul... it's very hard to take you seriously on this topic when you define the Constitution, an in some ways very dated document that was never by its framers intended to be locked and crystallized for all time in the most rigid understanding possible from the perspective of the context of 1776, as being a bible of the universal, natural human rights which existed before the Constitution and transcend laws or practical considerations of time passing and technology and society changing-- AND as having only one interpretation (yours), and then from that position you say that everyone else is lying.

    We're not lying, we're not being dishonest. We're not "spouting falsehoods." Those statements are only true working from a perspective that you are unquestionably right in your interpretation and no one else is, end of discussion. That's clearly what you believe but it's not what the rest of us believe and we're not being "dishonest" in what we're saying.
    When someone asserts that guns are "gross" and "breed violence", that's lying.

    And I take the Constitution exactly as it was intended: that its meaning should continue as it was written until the mechansim for changing it is implemented, namely amendation. It does have only one interpretation until it is amended. In fact, that's why they gave us a written constitution: so it would be an objective foundation for law, not something pliable in the hands of rulers.

    As for rights, those rest on the fact of self-ownership. Unless humans have stopped owning themselves, that is the source of rights.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    You are totally correct. Laws are also to be changed by the democratic process and not by enabling our mentally ill to get guns and shoot at us out of some antiquated notion that we are going to fight our own government with handguns.

    I'll never understand people who use that excuse-- and it's an excuse-- when we can't even get a high voter turnout. If people truly care so much about the direction of government they'd ensure through their votes that they never have the kind of government they'd ever need to worry about fighting in the streets with firearms.
    Votes?

    Government might be related to votes if elected officials were the sole source of law. Unfortunately, the great majority of law doesn't come from anyone elected but from faceless bureaucrats who don't have to care about being accountable, and generally don't care whether the law they set down bears any resemblance to the real world.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    This is old outmoded language that does not apply today. And there is no draft in this country any longer and probably won't be one since the focus is on technology and mobility rather than numbers.
    It's the LAW today -- sorry if you don't approve of that.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    LOL Your post just oozed fear of your neighbors! You somehow think that people with guns are likely to be vaulting your fence and interrupting your barbecue with violence. Unfortunately for you, the continuing increase in the number of people owning guns and carrying them regularly has shown that this is merely a cowardly whine put forth because there is no substance to work with. "Wild West" scenarios have not erupted as predicted -- yet you show that you still believe those fantasies.

    I keep bringing in the meaning of militia, etc., based on the writings of the time, and you label it "ideology". Now you're claiming that emotional unfounded fear of your neighbors is "ideology"!
    No, I'm the one with the barbecue, remember? And a beer. Minding my own business on a summer's day, when, according to your most recent theory, no one will ever leap over my fence with a gun, and to suggest it is just fear-mongering.

    As Churchill observed, having tried everything else, I knew you would eventually come up with the right answer. Remind me why I would need a gun to protect me from my harmless neighbours again?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post

    No matter how much you deny it, self-ownership is a fact. It's observable and demonstrable, not just psychologically but medically.
    No, it really isn't.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post

    So sound scholarship is now "making shit up" when you don't like it.

    "Militia" and "keep and bear arms" are terms that had specific meanings when the Second Amendment was framed and established. That you keep yourself ignorant of those meanings doesn't give a license to dismiss those meanings.
    Me and half the country. Apparently new definitions are needed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post

    Wonderful -- you lie about me, then lie about me more, and finally lie about your previous lies.

    Seems you're benvolio's mirror twin.
    No, I'm sheep, slave and property, remember?

    As for my "lies", you've already proven that you have selective amnesia about your own statements.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post

    LOL Your post just oozed fear of your neighbors! You somehow think that people with guns are likely to be vaulting your fence and interrupting your barbecue with violence. Unfortunately for you, the continuing increase in the number of people owning guns and carrying them regularly has shown that this is merely a cowardly whine put forth because there is no substance to work with. "Wild West" scenarios have not erupted as predicted -- yet you show that you still believe those fantasies.

    I keep bringing in the meaning of militia, etc., based on the writings of the time, and you label it "ideology". Now you're claiming that emotional unfounded fear of your neighbors is "ideology"!
    Um, the post you are referring to wasn't mine. If you can't even pay attention to whom you are responding, maybe you should take a break from this topic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post

    No, only fools or liars don't care what it meant. Words have meaning, and the meaning is found only in one place: the intent of the writer. You didn't write those words, no one living today wrote those words, so what they see as meaning is irrelevant.

    You make the pre-novice's mistake concerning language, assuming that a given phoneme carries a given meaning and that the meaning you think it has is the only one there is. You thus contradict yourself when you assert "The ONLY thing that matters is the actual wording" while dismissing "what they meant", because what they meant to the writers IS the meaning of the actual wording -- or they would have worded it differently.
    If the intent is so glaringly and splittingly open to interpretation, it becomes irrelevant. You have one opinion, other people have another. And I promise you, unlike me, many of those are actual scholars. Which is why I say a new definition - updated for modern times - is necessary.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post

    When someone asserts that guns are "gross" and "breed violence", that's lying.

    And I take the Constitution exactly as it was intended: that its meaning should continue as it was written until the mechansim for changing it is implemented, namely amendation. It does have only one interpretation until it is amended. In fact, that's why they gave us a written constitution: so it would be an objective foundation for law, not something pliable in the hands of rulers.

    As for rights, those rest on the fact of self-ownership. Unless humans have stopped owning themselves, that is the source of rights.
    1. Guns are gross and breed violence. That's an OPINION, and as such, immune to the label "lying". Unless one is a zealot, which your posts paint you as on this subject.

    2. However many times you repeat that yours is the True Interpretation, it remains just as open for debate as before.

    3. Ownership of any kind is a social construct. Ideology and agreement with others. Most of the world - even the first world - has differing ideas on what rights people have. Your habit of stating ideology as fact is tiring and kills discussion. Fanaticism is off-putting.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post

    Votes?

    Government might be related to votes if elected officials were the sole source of law. Unfortunately, the great majority of law doesn't come from anyone elected but from faceless bureaucrats who don't have to care about being accountable, and generally don't care whether the law they set down bears any resemblance to the real world.
    Ultimately, someone is accountable for any law. So it falls to them to direct their writing regardless of who actually does it.
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    So sound scholarship is now "making shit up" when you don't like it.
    You do a lot of this on this topic though. In fact, this is your routine accusation against others on this topic.

    "Militia" and "keep and bear arms" are terms that had specific meanings when the Second Amendment was framed and established. That you keep yourself ignorant of those meanings doesn't give a license to dismiss those meanings.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    When someone asserts that guns are "gross" and "breed violence", that's lying.

    And I take the Constitution exactly as it was intended: that its meaning should continue as it was written until the mechansim for changing it is implemented, namely amendation. It does have only one interpretation until it is amended. In fact, that's why they gave us a written constitution: so it would be an objective foundation for law, not something pliable in the hands of rulers.

    As for rights, those rest on the fact of self-ownership. Unless humans have stopped owning themselves, that is the source of rights.
    So was the 2nd Amendment amended through nationwide ratification for every piece of gear beyond conventional 1776 equipment that State reserves & The Guard maintain today?

    According to your interpretation, they were never allowed to have GPS or any post-musket firearm or modern vehicles.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Your whole case rests on the assumption that the reports of violent crime daily are false, or that you are somehow immune, or that you just don't care to take responsibility for yourself.

    Carrying a firearm is no different than having air bags or getting a flu shot: all three are about facing reality and doing something to take responsibility.
    Except that we can actually demonstrate that getting flu shots reduces the chances of getting sick.

    We can't do that for having guns everywhere and the chances of being shot or murdered.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    So was the 2nd Amendment amended through nationwide ratification for every piece of gear beyond conventional 1776 equipment that State reserves & The Guard maintain today?
    Yet another sophomorinic and totally meaningless statement.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Sophomorinic is a new one I think.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    The gun debate often relies on invented statistics, but Henry is now inventing words as well.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    I'm not sure as to whether or not the argument has been made by anyone else, but I would like to point out that Switzerland does not have the same crime issues as the USA does and it is loaded with assault riffels in private homes..

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_pol...in_circulation

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    Quote Originally Posted by youfiad View Post
    I'm not sure as to whether or not the argument has been made by anyone else, but I would like to point out that Switzerland does not have the same crime issues as the USA does and it is loaded with assault riffels in private homes..

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_pol...in_circulation
    It has, and the answer to that is that unlike the ignorant armed to the teeth masses in the US, Switzerland has mandatory military training.
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    It has, and the answer to that is that unlike the ignorant armed to the teeth masses in the US, Switzerland has mandatory military training.
    I also presume it has national healthcare.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    It has, and the answer to that is that unlike the ignorant armed to the teeth masses in the US, Switzerland has mandatory military training.
    I'm not seeing how manditory military training should play into this equation. Does being in the military make people less crazy?? Not from what I've seen, quite to the contrary.

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Switzerland has strict laws on how those guns can be used, and those rifles are with reserve officers.



    And this from that source... it still doesn't stack up compared to the US.
    I don't understand what you're trying ot say. How guns can be used? Laws?

    I agree that we probably have more guns percapita, but comparitively speaking, the proportions are way out of wack. There's something else that's going on that isn't gun numbers themselves.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by youfiad View Post
    I'm not seeing how manditory military training should play into this equation. Does being in the military make people less crazy?? Not from what I've seen, quite to the contrary.
    It means they're all trained and qualified in how to handle guns and gun safety, at the bare minimum-- something you probably cannot say with any certainty for a majority of all gun owners in the U.S., for one.

    For two a lot of these crazed shooters you do see in the U.S. with military backgrounds are vets and have a host of psychological problems, like this cop in LA at the moment as one instance. Switzerland's pretty famous for NOT getting involved in wars.

    So no, not military training PER SE, but regimented training in gun use and safety is a given in Switzerland and is not in the United States. In part because of --- full circle --- NRA insistences upon no/as a little regulation as possible.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    It means they're all trained and qualified in how to handle guns and gun safety, at the bare minimum-- something you probably cannot say with any certainty for a majority of all gun owners in the U.S., for one.

    For two a lot of these crazed shooters you do see in the U.S. with military backgrounds are vets and have a host of psychological problems, like this cop in LA at the moment as one instance. Switzerland's pretty famous for NOT getting involved in wars.

    So no, not military training PER SE, but regimented training in gun use and safety is a given in Switzerland and is not in the United States. In part because of --- full circle --- NRA insistences upon no/as a little regulation as possible.
    I don't think gun safety is truly on the minds of most psychopaths who commit such horrible acts of terror. You do make a valid point on the returning Vet problem though. However, I don't think your first pointi holds any validity.

    Once again, I want to stress that I am not even addressing the NRA's stance on gun control; they're a bunch of republican morons.

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Switzerland has far more strict laws than the US. I don't know why gun advocates cite Switzerland. Those who own guns are required to pass psychological testing and extensive training. This is not the case in the United States.


    More gun laws? From what I can see, they're pretty open to guns. They arent required to pass psychological testing, but they are unable to own one if they fail psychological testing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by youfiad View Post

    I'm not seeing how manditory military training should play into this equation. Does being in the military make people less crazy?? Not from what I've seen, quite to the contrary.
    It teaches actual gun responsibility, unlike here where that phrase is only paid lip service. And obviously they don't have the same "yay! Guns for everyone!" Laws the US has, since apparently crazies still have no access to them.
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    It teaches actual gun responsibility, unlike here where that phrase is only paid lip service. And obviously they don't have the same "yay! Guns for everyone!" Laws the US has, since apparently crazies still have no access to them.


    Actually, according to my limited knowledge, they are precisely "guns for everyone"

    The structure of the Swiss militia system stipulates that the soldiers keep their own personal equipment, including all personally assigned weapons, at home (until 2007 this also included ammunition[3]). Compulsory military service concerns all male Swiss citizens, with women serving voluntarily. Males usually receive initial orders at the age of 18 for military conscription eligibility screening. About two-thirds of young Swiss men are found suitable for service, while alternative service exists for those found unsuitable.[4] Annually, approximately 20,000 persons are trained in basic training for a duration from 18 to 21 weeks (increased from 15 weeks, in 2003).

    All I am saying, and have been saying, that there are elements that are being ignored from the "Ban automatic guns" people. I'm not trying to push a pro gun agenda, because quite frankly, I think guns are stupid anyway. I just have to stand up when things aren't making sense or people are arguing without just cause (in my opinion).

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by youfiad View Post
    I don't think gun safety is truly on the minds of most psychopaths who commit such horrible acts of terror. You do make a valid point on the returning Vet problem though. However, I don't think your first pointi holds any validity.

    Once again, I want to stress that I am not even addressing the NRA's stance on gun control; they're a bunch of republican morons.
    Gun safety training probably wouldn't stop a psychopath; true. That's where the mental health part comes in. It would however stop this utterly retarded crap like 8 people being shot 'accidentally' on Gun Appreciation Day, or at least minimize gun accidents and accidental shootings, which would certainly be a start. Everyone's quick to point out that Lanza's mother was incompetent for not having properly secured her guns but what reason do we even have to believe she would have known how to do so? No training or certification is required in the U.S. in order to get some firearms.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    The US isn't Switzerland. Stop trying to compare apples and oranges. Switzerland has a different structure. And it's interesting from your citation... that ammunition is NOT kept at home (at least until 2007). So the guns are basically empty at home? This is a VERY different situation. And what elements are ignored? Pay attention to your own sources.

    Switzerland apparently is tightening up its own laws in recent years.
    No, the US isn't Switzerland, that's part of the point. People keep saying that high gun ownage = higher murder rates, when it simple isn't and doesn't have to be the case.

    The law that you're stating actually required them to keep MILITARY amunition at home until 2007. If I understand correctly, they can just get their own at home.

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