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Thread: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

      
   
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    . Without people using them, guns won't shoot people. However, without guns, people also will not shoot people.
    That may well be, but if a maniac is determined to dispatch a fellow human being, he or she will find a way.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Correct, but without a semi-auto with a high capacity magazine, he will not be so capable of killing 20 school children in less than 60 seconds, as happened at Sandy Hook.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    So, you have stopped arguing that guns kill people, including your a Uncle Joe, so this thread can be closed. I hope he is feeling better now that we have resurrected him.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    That may well be, but if a maniac is determined to dispatch a fellow human being, he or she will find a way.
    And that way is way more likely to be 100% less efficient than shooting them with a gun, leaving a 100% higher chance for survival. For reference - the Chinese guy who attacked kids with a knife and managed to heroically kill... not a single one. How many of the Sandy Hook kids would be alive now if Lanza only had a knife?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    So, you have stopped arguing that guns kill people, including your a Uncle Joe, so this thread can be closed. I hope he is feeling better now that we have resurrected him.
    Are you seriously ABSOLUTELY incapable of contributing to any discussion, or do you just not want to?
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    This is a stunning admission. Americans do see violence as a legitimate avenue to decision making. Without even lamenting it. All I can say to the rest of the world is, "This is the problem we have to contain." Nationshambles.
    Some do. Namely the ones raised in a heavily gun promoting culture, usually but not always either military or smalltown/hunting backgrounds, and a hefty dose of American myth think that individuals can (and perhaps SHOULD) solve everything themselves, at the point of a gun if necessary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Actually, it is known as " reductio ad absurdum". It is not a fallacy, it is a logical technique of showing the absurdity of a proposition by applying it.
    And I threw it right back at you in that if we cannot control weapons because what the weapons can do to others is not the weapon's fault but the individual, then why can't I have a nuke?

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Chris Dorner is evidence as to why gun culture is so wrong and dangerous. The right wingers here are incapable of seeing of what danger their views pose to the public. They'll continue to resort to logical fallacies and such.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    . How many of the Sandy Hook kids would be alive now if Lanza only had a knife?

    [
    ?
    How many of them would be alive now if one or more of the teachers had been armed?

  8. #208

    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Hey, Dorner is an Obama fan. Don't blame the right for his gun culture. We don't have a gun culture. We simply are not willing to surrender our Constitutional rights, and this is one.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    How many of them would be alive now if one or more of the teachers had been armed?
    Although impossible to actually know, I'd say not very many more. There may even be a few more dead. I would also say there'd be one or more additional teachers dead since it is very likely that the teachers would be the first shot by the gunman had the practice been to arm teachers. That is why you see reports of armed police officers and soldiers that are killed. People with guns don't deter people like Adam Lanza who leave the house in the morning with guns intending to die. Whether they kill 10 people or 100 people doesn't matter to them and they damn sure aren't afraid of being shot by someone who might have a gun.

    I will say definitively that a lot more kids would be alive had Adam Lanza not had access to guns.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    I will say definitively that a lot more kids would be alive had Adam Lanza not had access to guns.
    ... yeah, but... that wouldn't have stopped him from getting screwdrivers and croquet mallets.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    I will say definitively that a lot more kids would be alive had Adam Lanza not had access to guns.
    Culpability rested with the mother and her failure to secure her guns or even having firearms in the house with an unstable person. She got her unfortunate justice.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Hey, Dorner is an Obama fan. Don't blame the right for his gun culture. We don't have a gun culture. We simply are not willing to surrender our Constitutional rights, and this is one.
    Bullshit. Dorner is a disturbed big gun fanatic ex-military guy who was self centered and narcissist. Jeez... that sounds quite familiar. Please READ into Dorner before making silly assumptions. Believe me, Dorner is someone I know well now even if I have never met the guy (thanks to endless local coverage)... I've also read his entire manifesto. He's a disturbed psycho.

    Gun culture isn't a constitutional right, and as far as I'm concerned are they part of a militia? Because the second amendment was originally about militias.
    Last edited by GiancarloC; February 11th, 2013 at 07:39 PM.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by maxpowr9 View Post
    Culpability rested with the mother and her failure to secure her guns or even having firearms in the house with an unstable person. She got her unfortunate justice.
    Which is why I'd rather the government take big strides towards limiting what guns can be sold and owned as well as extensive background checks of people buying guns. I don't want to put my faith in the fact that every idiot out there that can easily obtain a gun properly stores it and keeps it away from loonies. While you or I may have seen Adam Lanza as a nut job waiting to do something stupid, he was mommy's little angel who can solve his problems by going to the gun range to let it all out.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Gun culture isn't a constitutional right, and as far as I'm concerned are they part of a militia? Because the second amendment was originally about militias.
    The term 'gun culture' is a total liberal fantasy.

    The second amendment is about being able to protect oneself and one's family, especially from tyrants, and it's particularly important now that we have a certified tyrant residing at 1600 Pennsylania Avenue.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Nope, henry. It's a very real analogy about a culture gone completely mad.

    The second amendment is about militias. Pay attention. And one doesn't need a gun to protect oneself or their family. And that was originally about militias.

    Pay attention to what I write, and not just respond to parts taken out of context.

    And this idea that guns suddenly make someone safer and such is republican fantasy. Didn't help the people at Fort Hood.
    Last edited by GiancarloC; February 11th, 2013 at 08:48 PM.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    The term 'gun culture' is a total liberal fantasy.

    The second amendment is about being able to protect oneself and one's family, especially from tyrants, and it's particularly important now that we have a certified tyrant residing at 1600 Pennsylania Avenue.
    Is that what it is about? Can you cite your source because I don't see that anywhere in the Second Amendment. All I see it mention is a well-regulated militia being needed for the security of a free State, not for security from a free State. Besides, do you honestly think any amount of firepower will help you if the military comes looking for you?

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Reardon:

    I'll concede that in getting Obama we have a man that can actually put a bloated military to use (it was scary enough with the incompetent twat that preceded him), but he's no tyrant. Half of what he does is Bush revisited--but just because Bush committed atrocities does not really make him a tyrant either. Just an abuser and manipulator. The 2nd amendment had nothing to do with personal protection. It had everything to do with the possibility of staging a recapturing the country by using a well-regulated militia in the late 1700s and early 1800s. It has not really been relevant after that time. We only know when it became irrelevant in hindsight.

    Gun culture didn't even exist until the 1970s. That was when the NRA turned from being the good neighborly people who taught you how to shoot a gun for sport to the advocacy of removing all restrictions on firepower. There have always been enthusiasts, but when you get to the point that the enthused is now the fanatic, a line should have been crossed. Unfortunately, we did not even realize a line had to be drawn until it was too late. Now that people have crossed where the line should have been, they won't give it up. It was never theirs for the taking, but the 1980s policies didn't even consider the possibility of stopping things where they should've been.

    It's a fantasy only in the sense that what you think we consider it is a fantasy. It's not a gun-centric culture. It's a gun-surrounded culture.

    This is where I take a quasi-utilitarian stance: People are smart. The public is stupid. It's panicky, impulsive, irresponsible, temperamental, illogical and dangerous. Better to treat people like the public. Better safe than sorry.
    Last edited by mightbe; February 11th, 2013 at 09:07 PM.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    Is that what it is about? Can you cite your source because I don't see that anywhere in the Second Amendment. All I see it mention is a well-regulated militia being needed for the security of a free State, not for security from a free State. Besides, do you honestly think any amount of firepower will help you if the military comes looking for you?
    They do very much think that and I'd say that's one of the core beliefs of the gun culture that he claims is mythical.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    They do very much think that and I'd say that's one of the core beliefs of the gun culture that he claims is mythical.
    Well I would have them talk to some people in Waco or Ruby Ridge. The government was overthrown there, right?

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Ideology is not fact. Deal with it. Just because you believe in rights being intrinsic, doesn't make it so. And, frankly, it's irrelevant to reality either way.
    Rights are intrinsic -- and that is a fact, one resting on the fact that each person owns himself. That IS reality, regardless of all the ideologues who have other notions.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    It didn't talk about them at all because they didn't exist yet in 1776.

    But the concept of the right to individual arms to ensure government could never become tyrannical would naturally need to expand as the machinery of war advanced so that citizens always had commensurate power to stop a government from oppressing them.

    So if we accept the 2nd Amendment as rigidly as you say we must as a universal, unquestionable natural human right, I want my nuke. It's the only want to ensure the government can't oppress me, I can't take on the army with a handgun.
    There is no personal right to a nuke, any more than there is to a tank. That's all part of the term "militia".

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Government is part of the people. If the people wanted guns, they would have made the government change the laws so we could have them. We don't want them. They are gross and breed violence, and all advanced cultures have realized that. Unfortunately, your half of the US is not an advanced culture.

    And your entire stance is violently hypocritical, in case you aren't aware of it.
    There's no hypocrisy at all, just reality.

    You, OTOH, are basing your position on lies, such as that in the middle of your second line.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    There is no personal right to a nuke, any more than there is to a tank. That's all part of the term "militia".
    So are firearms, but you seem to advocate people having a personal right to them. They are all classified as arms and they are all for the purpose of maintaining a well-regulated militia. How can you argue against two but argue for the other?

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by lambdaboy View Post
    More people have died by guns in the U.S. than in all the wars we have fought.
    http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...e-killed-guns/
    Actually most of the deaths by firearms in the US have been part of a war, the war of a government on its own people. Think Prohibition and the falsely named "War on Drugs", which were and are systems whereby government creates and then subsidies violence against its own citizens.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Actually most of the deaths by firearms in the US have been part of a war, the war of a government on its own people. Think Prohibition and the falsely named "War on Drugs", which were and are systems whereby government creates and then subsidies violence against its own citizens.
    Anything to blame the government, right? So now the line is "Guns don't kill people and people don't kill people. The government kills people by having people kill people with guns." I'd say most of the deaths by firearms have been part of people buying guns and shooting each other. It's that simple.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Some do. Namely the ones raised in a heavily gun promoting culture, usually but not always either military or smalltown/hunting backgrounds, and a hefty dose of American myth think that individuals can (and perhaps SHOULD) solve everything themselves, at the point of a gun if necessary.
    Yes, this is a good point, and I concede it- in direct measure to the degree to which other Americans can contain the gun nuts. If they're still setting the terms of the debate and turning the Second Amendment into the ideological equivalent of "LALALALLALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU" in a way that still affords them political legitimacy, then I don't know what else to say. Immigrate? It's not too hard to come to Canada, and we have enough natural gas that winter won't matter for centuries. A glass of port by the fire is a great thing.

    At least clearly a portion believes in the bullshit of "pistols at dawn" as though that somehow legitimised their whims. And that is a cancer to be excised.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Rights are intrinsic -- and that is a fact, one resting on the fact that each person owns himself. That IS reality, regardless of all the ideologues who have other notions.
    Rights are intrinsic, indeed they are. In claiming my right of self defence, I call for general disarmament. My life, liberty and happiness are best served by overall disarmament, in my sovereign, self-owning judgment, with controlled exceptions for farm use and sport/skill shooting.

    Your approach is every-man-and-his-gun-to-himself. It is true that my disarmament approach, if I impose it on you, may leave you undefended in a critical moment, and you could die at the hands of someone you would have otherwise been able to defend yourself against.

    But your approach, to live in an every-man-and-his-gun-to-himself society, also imposes risks on me that I am equally unwilling to accept. You yourself purport to be a responsible gun owner, yet you've had guns stolen from you. Your approach leaves me at risk of being shot by a gun stolen from you; a risk I would not have had to face if the gun had never been manufactured, never left in a triple-locked box that was obviously not secure enough to prevent the theft, and then never trained on my innocent face when I'm sitting in my back yard enjoying the long days of summer with a beer and a barbecue. I don't have to be concerned about a gun being stolen from you again if you don't have it in the first place.

    If I were a tyrant, I'd just have your guns confiscated so I can enjoy the back yard without thinking about it. But as a reasonable man, I'm willing to let the evidence decide. Everything I know about the prevalence of privately held guns shows me that those communities are more dangerous - in particular, to me, and in particular, by undermining my life, liberty and happiness. But if there is actually an empirical reason to believe I'd be safer under your approach to exercising the right to self defence, I will learn to shoot, and buy a gun, and sit nervously in my back yard, flipping burgers with one hand and keeping a wary eye on my neighbours with the other…waiting...like Bond in Scaramanga's basement. It sounds like a shitty way to spend the summer to be honest, glaring at the fence and waiting to see who pops over. But maybe it is safer than my disarmament approach. I don't believe you can meet that standard, but you're welcome to try.
    Last edited by bankside; February 11th, 2013 at 09:50 PM.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    So yes, my point was completely relevant to the topic YOU brought up.
    I didn't bring up a topic, I commented on a post that asserted that a great volume of guns used in crimes in many other countries come from the US, the implication being from civilian sources. You twisted it to military sales.

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    It also doesn't talk about assault rifles. Or handguns. Or muskets. Or shotguns. It talks about "arms" which everything above, including precision guided missiles and NBC weapons, falls under.
    It does talk about all of those -- only ignorance claims otherwise. You can't pull a word out of context and make it mean something you choose; you have to work with the meaning as it was written. The phrase "keep and bear arms", at the time it was penned, referred to the personal arms a common soldier would be expected to carry -- long gun, sidearm, perhaps knife. That was integral to the concept of militia, which does provide for citizens having the other sort of weapons you mention -- but those are not being discussed in the amendment, which is about the right to keep and bear arms, not the right to organize a proper militia, which would in fact have the right to have those other weapons.

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    Slippery slope is a logical fallacy, sir. To argue that someone is in favor of something when they haven't actually said or done anything to support that is an argument of convenience and doesn't hold any water. Also, the framers of the Constitution made no mention of it being super simple to obtain the arms that people have a right to bear. On the contrary, they actually explicitly stated that the militia holding those arms should be "well regulated" which, at least in my mind, means that regulations are fair game. As long as the right isn't being denied (which we determined earlier no one has tried to do), then there is no problem.
    When the end of the slope is the stated goal of the people these politicians call on for support, there's nothing slippery about it (just about the politicians). Your position is that just because someone says he's going downstairs, the fact that he only takes the first step means he really doesn't mean what he says.

    As for your interpretation of "well regulated", that's the sort of ignorance which has this debate floundering before the starting line. Read George Washington's comments on the subject, and you'll learn that it has nothing to do with "regulations", it has to do with being supplied with the proper weapons, being trained to use them well, having unit discipline including paying heed to their officers, not fearing to engage the enemy and standing fast when so engaged, maintaining good order and discipline when retreating, and more.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    This is a stunning admission. Americans do see violence as a legitimate avenue to decision making. Without even lamenting it. All I can say to the rest of the world is, "This is the problem we have to contain." Nationshambles.
    Interestingly, a critical aspect of a well-regulated militia is knowing when NOT to engage in violence, as random violence is a matter of lack of good order and discipline. As I keep saying, one approach to a solution is for Congress to assert its Article I authority to provide discipline to the militia. That doesn't allow Congress to take away personal arms, but it does authorize requirements of training, safety (including storage), perhaps even periodic examinations as to proficiency and safety.

    So, for example, all weapons in a household not actually being "borne" (carried or immediately available for use) could be required to be locked up securely, so individuals such as the recent school shooter can't just walk off with someone's unsecured weapons -- or if he could, then the person who failed to secure those weapons properly would be liable, not under civil law, but under provisions for proper discipline in the militia. In that case, the shooter's sloppy (not well-regulated) mother would be facing disciplinary action under militia laws, most likely in the form of fines and public rebuke on top of restitution to those harmed by that negligence.

    For my part, any repeat breach of the proper discipline of the militia would mean being drummed out and, having been stripped of the status of a member of the militia, being forbidden to be in possession of not merely firearms but anything that could be considered a personal weapon for military purposes.

    Hopefully, such discipline would instill in all households the same deep sense of responsibility that exists among the vast majority of our millions of gun owners.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Chris Dorner is evidence as to why gun culture is so wrong and dangerous. The right wingers here are incapable of seeing of what danger their views pose to the public. They'll continue to resort to logical fallacies and such.
    Then are you willing to concede that medical malpractice indicates that organized medicine is wrong and dangerous?


    BTW, are you even aware of why he's doing what he's doing?

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    I didn't bring up a topic, I commented on a post that asserted that a great volume of guns used in crimes in many other countries come from the US, the implication being from civilian sources. You twisted it to military sales.
    So I'm going to quote you again since you obviously didn't remember what you said.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr
    Very few weapons from the US get to those countries -- they get far more from each others' militaries, which leak guns like a gum machine 'leaks' gumballs.
    Seems like you did mention military there. My point still accurately stands. The US is the largest exporter of firearms in the world, both in the military and civilian sectors. It is lunacy to think that many of those civilian guns do not go to civilians in other countries and that many of those military guns do not wind up in civilian hands. We are the largest contributor to the problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    It does talk about all of those -- only ignorance claims otherwise. You can't pull a word out of context and make it mean something you choose; you have to work with the meaning as it was written. The phrase "keep and bear arms", at the time it was penned, referred to the personal arms a common soldier would be expected to carry -- long gun, sidearm, perhaps knife. That was integral to the concept of militia, which does provide for citizens having the other sort of weapons you mention -- but those are not being discussed in the amendment, which is about the right to keep and bear arms, not the right to organize a proper militia, which would in fact have the right to have those other weapons.
    If you're going down that route, then it excludes all of today's modern firearms and applies on to muzzle loaded muskets and sidearms. Also, since there wasn't a standing army when the Constitution was written, one could argue that a) we cannot have a standing military or b) the standing military satisfies the requirement for a well-regulated militia and thus no personal firearm ownership is needed. The right of all arms is being addressed by the amendment, which is why no specific arms were mentioned. And that right is dictated by the need for a well-regulated militia. If the need for a well-regulated militia is no longer there, then that right is no longer needed. That is the whole purpose in adding the first half of the second amendment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    When the end of the slope is the stated goal of the people these politicians call on for support, there's nothing slippery about it (just about the politicians). Your position is that just because someone says he's going downstairs, the fact that he only takes the first step means he really doesn't mean what he says.
    Again, can you name a politician that has advocated for or introduced legislation to take away all firearms? You're arguing a position that no politician has taken. Yes, if you want to pass legislation, you're going to get support for that legislation from anyone who is willing to give it. That doesn't mean you are accepting their whole platform as your own. There is a large cross-section of people who support better regulations for firearms and they represent a wide range of views. You're choosing the most extreme view and saying that any action taken at all will lead to that end result. That is a slippery slope and it is a logical fallacy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    As for your interpretation of "well regulated", that's the sort of ignorance which has this debate floundering before the starting line. Read George Washington's comments on the subject, and you'll learn that it has nothing to do with "regulations", it has to do with being supplied with the proper weapons, being trained to use them well, having unit discipline including paying heed to their officers, not fearing to engage the enemy and standing fast when so engaged, maintaining good order and discipline when retreating, and more.
    George Washington didn't write the Constitution. There have been MANY literary works written in regards to the interpretation of the Second Amendment, some in favor and some opposed. The Supreme Court has ruled (and obviously taken well-regulated to mean) that there can be restrictions on firearm sales and regulations put on their use and their possession. In fact, other than straight up across-the-board bans, they have upheld almost every regulation passed, including the previous ban on assault rifles both federally and in various states.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Bullshit. Dorner is a disturbed big gun fanatic ex-military guy who was self centered and narcissist. Jeez... that sounds quite familiar. Please READ into Dorner before making silly assumptions. Believe me, Dorner is someone I know well now even if I have never met the guy (thanks to endless local coverage)... I've also read his entire manifesto. He's a disturbed psycho.

    Gun culture isn't a constitutional right, and as far as I'm concerned are they part of a militia? Because the second amendment was originally about militias.
    No, the Second was about THE PEOPLE, just like all the rest of the amendments.

    And Dorner is part of the militia, just as are you and I -- and as are the corrupt police he's fighting against via last resort . . . and arguably in this instance he's the more "well regulated" of the situation.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    Is that what it is about? Can you cite your source because I don't see that anywhere in the Second Amendment. All I see it mention is a well-regulated militia being needed for the security of a free State, not for security from a free State. Besides, do you honestly think any amount of firepower will help you if the military comes looking for you?
    Just read both the Federalist and Anti-Federalist papers.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    So are firearms, but you seem to advocate people having a personal right to them. They are all classified as arms and they are all for the purpose of maintaining a well-regulated militia. How can you argue against two but argue for the other?
    "Arms" is not a term you can just take and define as you wish apart from the context. "Keep and bear arms" defines, by its common use at the time, the meaning of the term "arms", which was the personal weapons of the common soldier. Now, if you can show me that the common soldier in, say, NATO, carries a nuke around as standard weaponry, then I'll concede your claim. But as it is, you're arbitrarily redefining the terms of the Second Amendment -- which is a lawyer's trick whereby anything at all can be made to mean whatever you wish.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    BTW, are you even aware of why he's doing what he's doing?
    I am aware of why he says he is doing it. What bearing does that have on anything and does it make it right? Should the guy be able to go out and shoot people using 30+ guns he has accumulated because he got fired and felt it wasn't right? Possessing that many firearms does need to be illegal. The Second Amendment does not guarantee every person they can be their own militia. You should be able to possess a handgun for self defense, a rifle for big game hunting, and a shotgun for small game hunting and that's it. I'd happily support that balance between allowing people to bear arms while regulating the "militia."

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Just read both the Federalist and Anti-Federalist papers.
    Again, those are not the Constitution. None of these works cited were in any way codified into the governing of our nation. They were the opinions of individuals at the time.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    "Arms" is not a term you can just take and define as you wish apart from the context. "Keep and bear arms" defines, by its common use at the time, the meaning of the term "arms", which was the personal weapons of the common soldier. Now, if you can show me that the common soldier in, say, NATO, carries a nuke around as standard weaponry, then I'll concede your claim. But as it is, you're arbitrarily redefining the terms of the Second Amendment -- which is a lawyer's trick whereby anything at all can be made to mean whatever you wish.
    Well then arms is not a term you can modify to mean today's modern weaponry. If you're going to take arms into the context of the period, then they were obviously referring to muzzle loaded, black powder firearms. They don't encompass semi-automatic weapons. They don't include pump action shotguns. They don't include high capacity magazines. They don't include laser/optical sights. None of that is included in the Second Amendment so all of that should be illegal. It's an arbitrary redefining of the terms of the Second Amendment which is a gun nuts trick whereby they can justify having whatever firearms they want while excluding anything that may weaken their "firearms uninhibited for everyone" mantra.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Yes, this is a good point, and I concede it- in direct measure to the degree to which other Americans can contain the gun nuts. If they're still setting the terms of the debate and turning the Second Amendment into the ideological equivalent of "LALALALLALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU" in a way that still affords them political legitimacy, then I don't know what else to say. Immigrate? It's not too hard to come to Canada, and we have enough natural gas that winter won't matter for centuries. A glass of port by the fire is a great thing.

    At least clearly a portion believes in the bullshit of "pistols at dawn" as though that somehow legitimised their whims. And that is a cancer to be excised.



    Rights are intrinsic, indeed they are. In claiming my right of self defence, I call for general disarmament. My life, liberty and happiness are best served by overall disarmament, in my sovereign, self-owning judgment, with controlled exceptions for farm use and sport/skill shooting.

    Your approach is every-man-and-his-gun-to-himself. It is true that my disarmament approach, if I impose it on you, may leave you undefended in a critical moment, and you could die at the hands of someone you would have otherwise been able to defend yourself against.

    But your approach, to live in an every-man-and-his-gun-to-himself society, also imposes risks on me that I am equally unwilling to accept. You yourself purport to be a responsible gun owner, yet you've had guns stolen from you. Your approach leaves me at risk of being shot by a gun stolen from you; a risk I would not have had to face if the gun had never been manufactured, never left in a triple-locked box that was obviously not secure enough to prevent the theft, and then never trained on my innocent face when I'm sitting in my back yard enjoying the long days of summer with a beer and a barbecue. I don't have to be concerned about a gun being stolen from you again if you don't have it in the first place.

    If I were a tyrant, I'd just have your guns confiscated so I can enjoy the back yard without thinking about it. But as a reasonable man, I'm willing to let the evidence decide. Everything I know about the prevalence of privately held guns shows me that those communities are more dangerous - in particular, to me, and in particular, by undermining my life, liberty and happiness. But if there is actually an empirical reason to believe I'd be safer under your approach to exercising the right to self defence, I will learn to shoot, and buy a gun, and sit nervously in my back yard, flipping burgers with one hand and keeping a wary eye on my neighbours with the other…waiting...like Bond in Scaramanga's basement. It sounds like a shitty way to spend the summer to be honest, glaring at the fence and waiting to see who pops over. But maybe it is safer than my disarmament approach. I don't believe you can meet that standard, but you're welcome to try.
    This is so far out in fantasy land I'm not even going to try to reach for an answer. I'll just make one point: you just demonstrated that the one with the terrible fear of his neighbor is YOU.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    So I'm going to quote you again since you obviously didn't remember what you said.

    Seems like you did mention military there. My point still accurately stands. The US is the largest exporter of firearms in the world, both in the military and civilian sectors. It is lunacy to think that many of those civilian guns do not go to civilians in other countries and that many of those military guns do not wind up in civilian hands. We are the largest contributor to the problem.
    Of course I mentioned military -- it's kind of hard to point out that you dragged the military into a subject that didn't include it without using the word.

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    If you're going down that route, then it excludes all of today's modern firearms and applies on to muzzle loaded muskets and sidearms. Also, since there wasn't a standing army when the Constitution was written, one could argue that a) we cannot have a standing military or b) the standing military satisfies the requirement for a well-regulated militia and thus no personal firearm ownership is needed. The right of all arms is being addressed by the amendment, which is why no specific arms were mentioned. And that right is dictated by the need for a well-regulated militia. If the need for a well-regulated militia is no longer there, then that right is no longer needed. That is the whole purpose in adding the first half of the second amendment.
    No, it doesn't. I'll try again: the Second Amendment means the standard weapons of the common soldier. That means -- to go worldwide -- something like the AK-47, a 9mm sidearm, and a knife. Or are you seriously claiming that the Founding Fathers and the Framers were so dim that they didn't realize there would be advances in weaponry (which they had witnessed in their lifetimes!)?

    One thing is certain, that they weren't so dim as to confuse a standing army with the militia; they believed that the militia was the proper counter to the standing army, which they saw as an instrument of tyranny. They knew the difference between the general militia, an organized or formal militia, and a standing army -- for that matter, so does US law, which makes clear that the standing army is NOT militia, and that the National Guard is formal militia up to the point when it is called up by the federal government, at which point it ceases to be militia. Just read the writings of the time, and you'll see that they held that the mere existence of a standing army was sufficient cause for the citizenry to be active and training and well-armed (part of being well-regulated) and on the alert.

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    Again, can you name a politician that has advocated for or introduced legislation to take away all firearms? You're arguing a position that no politician has taken. Yes, if you want to pass legislation, you're going to get support for that legislation from anyone who is willing to give it. That doesn't mean you are accepting their whole platform as your own. There is a large cross-section of people who support better regulations for firearms and they represent a wide range of views. You're choosing the most extreme view and saying that any action taken at all will lead to that end result. That is a slippery slope and it is a logical fallacy.
    Advocated for legislation? Of course not -- they're not fools. But every one of them who is pals with the likes of the Brady campaign (or whatever they call themselves these days) is aiming at disarmament of "mister and misses America".

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    George Washington didn't write the Constitution. There have been MANY literary works written in regards to the interpretation of the Second Amendment, some in favor and some opposed. The Supreme Court has ruled (and obviously taken well-regulated to mean) that there can be restrictions on firearm sales and regulations put on their use and their possession. In fact, other than straight up across-the-board bans, they have upheld almost every regulation passed, including the previous ban on assault rifles both federally and in various states.
    George Washington was commander of the combined militias of the colonies. If anyone knew what the term meant, he did. Since he wrote in those terms to the Continental Congress, he knew that they understood it in the same way he did.

    As for regulations, now that the Court has finally gotten around to tackling the Second head on, they're affirming exactly what numerous decisions before have set out: that the right to keep and bear arms is individual, that it applies in private and public, that its exercise cannot be made burdensome, and most importantly that its being a right supersedes any detrimental effects.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  39. #239
    GiancarloC
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    No, the Second was about THE PEOPLE, just like all the rest of the amendments.

    And Dorner is part of the militia, just as are you and I -- and as are the corrupt police he's fighting against via last resort . . . and arguably in this instance he's the more "well regulated" of the situation.
    Baloney. I am not part of any militia, nor is anyone else here unless they are in the national guard. Chris Dorner is a nutcase with major mental problems. He's not fighting against anyone for anything real except for his own selfish bullshit. Please read up on the story. It's not that difficult... it's very well covered.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    Well then arms is not a term you can modify to mean today's modern weaponry. If you're going to take arms into the context of the period, then they were obviously referring to muzzle loaded, black powder firearms. They don't encompass semi-automatic weapons. They don't include pump action shotguns. They don't include high capacity magazines. They don't include laser/optical sights. None of that is included in the Second Amendment so all of that should be illegal. It's an arbitrary redefining of the terms of the Second Amendment which is a gun nuts trick whereby they can justify having whatever firearms they want while excluding anything that may weaken their "firearms uninhibited for everyone" mantra.
    They specifically said that they meant the ordinary arms of the common soldier.

    I don't understand this liberal penchant for ignoring standard procedures of scholarship and assuming blithely that the people who wrote the Constitution were both intellectually dim and totally disconnected from their society. It's fundamentalism at its worst: the assumption that an older document was written for you, to you, in your terms.

    The SCOTUS has already acknowledged that the Framers weren't a bunch of dims, when they took pains to examine whether a shotgun was of military use: they didn't ask whether the Framers knew of such a weapon, but whether it fit the Framers intent of the standard weapons of a common soldier; in fact they were generous by considering whether it had any military use at all, with the implication that if it did, it was protected under the Second Amendment.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Then are you willing to concede that medical malpractice indicates that organized medicine is wrong and dangerous?


    BTW, are you even aware of why he's doing what he's doing?
    Am I even aware? Where the fuck do I live? I assure everyone here, I'm very well informed about this entire situation because this fucker isn't too far from where I live, and if that poses a danger to me I WILL be KEPT WELL INFORMED. I read his fucking dossier. He's nothing more than a narcissist piece of trash who doesn't care about anyone else he hurts. He's evidence as to why the LAPD needs stricter psychological entrance testing. Someone who knew him while on the force said he was a ticking time bomb.

    I'm more than AWARE.

    Please don't excuse what that psychopath is doing. As far as the LAPD, I knew they were corrupt a LONG TIME AGO. I didn't need a psychopath killing family members of police officers to tell me that.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Baloney. I am not part of any militia, nor is anyone else here unless they are in the national guard. Chris Dorner is a nutcase with major mental problems. He's not fighting against anyone for anything real except for his own selfish bullshit. Please read up on the story. It's not that difficult... it's very well covered.
    If you claim to not be part of the militia, you're either not a citizen, you're physically incompetent to handle a firearm, or you're in violation of the US Code. All able-bodied citizens of a certain age are the militia, by federal law.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  43. #243
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    If you claim to not be part of the militia, you're either not a citizen, you're physically incompetent to handle a firearm, or you're in violation of the US Code. All able-bodied citizens of a certain age are the militia, by federal law.
    Baloney. That's twisting it. There is no "militia" asides from the national guard (technically), and maybe the police. It's old language that doesn't apply to the real world.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    This is so far out in fantasy land I'm not even going to try to reach for an answer. I'll just make one point: you just demonstrated that the one with the terrible fear of his neighbor is YOU.
    Kulindahr, you have no answer because you have no case. Ultimately, despite your protestations about their leadership, you toe the NRA line, subscribe to their empty rhetoric, and your lifetime membership is the shoe that fits.

    I don't fear my fellow citizens, because I know in case of any disagreement we are expecting to meet each other in a battle of wits rather than in a hail of bullets. By contrast, you fear the day that some nut-job with a gun shows up on your doorstep unbidden and unprovoked, and your whole plan for self preservation consists in hoping you're a better shot.
    Last edited by bankside; February 11th, 2013 at 11:09 PM.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    hoping you're a better shot.
    And even that relies on the assumption it can be seen coming.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    And even that relies on the assumption it can be seen coming.
    Ugh. Don't even get me started. Probably the biggest thing where this (huge but not universal) chunk of Americans need to wake up is with this idea that guns actually work as advertised. They just don't offer people the protection they think they're buying.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    How many of them would be alive now if one or more of the teachers had been armed?
    Likely the same number, as the shooting took seconds - nowhere near enough time for anyone to actually do anything, with or without a gun available to them.

    There is a reason why somehow those violent sprees are almost never prevented by a responsible gun-owner, even they occasionally do happen around people with guns.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  48. #248
    Impish and Mercurial Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Rights are intrinsic -- and that is a fact, one resting on the fact that each person owns himself. That IS reality, regardless of all the ideologues who have other notions.
    Nope, that's ideology. Facts are quantifiable, documentable things. This is your fanatic Ayn Randian opinion. Nothing more and nothing less. And regardless of how much Holy Judgment you will put in your tone, the message remains just as flimsy.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  49. #249
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    There is no personal right to a nuke, any more than there is to a tank. That's all part of the term "militia".
    We call that "making shit up"
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    There's no hypocrisy at all, just reality.

    You, OTOH, are basing your position on lies, such as that in the middle of your second line.
    No, it's actually fairly hypocritical. You advocate free unrestrained gun-ownership, yet cherry pick what it applies to. As for the rest, it is not a position based on lies, it is based on provable fact
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

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