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  1. #151
    Impish and Mercurial Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Frankly, I don't know why you even bothered posting. You repeated old and debunked arguments, and added nothing new to the discussion. That's time neither you, nor those of us who read your post will ever get back...

    Quote Originally Posted by itsmejeff View Post
    There is a study linked in the article. http://www.cepr.org/meets/wkcn/9/979...nnano_etal.pdf

    No, individual with child-like abilities in logic, it does not. Crime rates are generally lower prior to changes in firearms laws. New York and California have seen decreases in crime prior to weapons laws went into effect. There has been a consistent decline in crime since the 1990s. Not because of less guns either. The majority of people are committing less crimes (theories abound, but the reasons are unknown).

    Other places have seen no effect from firearms laws. The District of Columbia and Chicago are examples there. Why? Because the relationship between crime and firearms laws is tenuous at best. Firearms are durable. They last a long time. Law does little to change that. Weapons will always be available. People who want them will be able to get them. People looking to engage in criminal activity just ignore law. People working in the market for illegal substances need firearms as they have no court protection for contracts.

    As an aside, I have a magic stick that prevents tornadoes. There has never been a tornado near me. I will sell it to you--guy who has never taken a course in statistics and clearly is lacking in an ability to understand causation--for US$1 million.

    Do a bit of reading. Look at peer reviewed journals about Japanese culture and reporting of rape and sexual assault specifically. enough has been written about it. Suicide is also seen as responsible in Japan. See "inseki-jisatsu." different culture. Different views.'

    The problem here is that you do not understand math. It is not unexpected, but it prevents any actual examination of facts.

    Not quite.

    What firearms are is effective. They do not cause anything. Fatality rates are higher with firearms than other weapons. Again, most murders are unplanned. Using a firearm is somewhat easier than using other weapons, so people who are shot are more likely to die. But violence is inherent in the species. And other species as well. Primates kill. A lot. Infanticide, murder, and war-like acts of aggression to take over territory are seen in chimpanzees.

    What actually is happening is that stupid people are failing to examine the root causes of crime. They blame firearms because it is easy. Liberals are just as bad at math and science as conservatives. That is a very American quality.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  2. #152
    Impish and Mercurial Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    There's a very good reason for that. In order to seriously examine - and deal with - the root causes of crime, it would be necessary to make a great many non-pc decisions and take a few actions that are definitely not politically correct.
    Please, make your racism and xenophobia plain, don't hide behind ambiguity. We all know what you mean, be a man and say it directly.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  3. #153

    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Debunked? Keep repeating that nonsense to yourself. It cool. You keep the emotion. I will stick with science and reason. You would not like them. they are determined by witchcraft like evidence and testing.

    What is apparent here is that you hate math because you do not understand it. You are too simple to understand the complexities of human behavior as well. Plus you are tremendously anti-human in your opinions (you deny human ingenuity and tendencies toward aggressive behavior). Whatever. That is fine. The world is built for the ignorant now. Technology allows the dumb to survive quite well.

    That does not change facts. European (violent) crime is increasing while American (violent) crime is decreasing (small thefts are up because of a greater number of targets; for example, many people have valuable smart phones). Murders are down everywhere though (partly due to improvements in medicine; partly because of various other reasons). That is just the nature of civilized society. Crime rates dropped in the vast majority of societies before gun laws changed. Even murder, which the media presents as being out of control, is down. Your odds are being murdered are tiny. Odds of being killed by a stranger in some public mass killing (or even a regular killing by a stranger) are really low (age, location, sex, and other factors play into the numbers). People fear the wrong things. Partly because they--like you--are so bad at math, but also because the media does a great job of sensationalizing stories.

    If the nonsense you claim is "truth" was true, then the city of Chicago--the dying dump of a city that you call home (according to listed location)--would not be one the murderingest of all US cities. It is worse because Chicago is not culturally southern. You cannot blame southern history and cultural influence as the fault of Chicago violence.

    There is a saying about arguing and the internet and retards, so I do not see the point of engaging any further with one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Please, make your racism and xenophobia plain, don't hide behind ambiguity. We all know what you mean, be a man and say it directly.
    What "racism" and xenophobia. Poor young males are the most likely to be killed or kill. Violence in general is a male thing (causes are likely biological and cultural). Higher rates of abortions in the US are believed to have reduced crime. Correcting pregnancy, in cases where the child would be raised in poverty with few opportunities, is believed to result in a reduction of crime in the future. It is not a "race" thing. The difference is really that people who are "race"-ed are more likely to be poor. "Black" and "hispanic" (which is not even a "race") persons are more likely to live in poverty. Both "groups" see higher TFRs as well (so much poor children, many of whom become poor young males that commit crimes.)

  4. #154
    mitchymo
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    I'd like to ask at this point, how many of those, responsible for shooting sprees in the last decade were criminals? Before the attacks i mean. Its blatantly obvious that addressing the causes of crime is only gonna lower the death toll. Its not going to bring an end to shooting sprees.

  5. #155
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by itsmejeff View Post
    Even murder, which the media presents as being out of control, is down. Your odds are being murdered are tiny. Odds of being killed by a stranger in some public mass killing (or even a regular killing by a stranger) are really low (age, location, sex, and other factors play into the numbers). People fear the wrong things. Partly because they--like you--are so bad at math, but also because the media does a great job of sensationalizing stories.
    Why do we insist on very high standards of commercial airliner maintenance? Look at your chances of dying in one.

  6. #156
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    I'd like to ask at this point, how many of those, responsible for shooting sprees in the last decade were criminals? Before the attacks i mean. Its blatantly obvious that addressing the causes of crime is only gonna lower the death toll. Its not going to bring an end to shooting sprees.
    That's an extremely good point. These public sprees are not "criminals who just got out of jail and went on a rampage." They were, more or less, "ordinary law abiding people who had guns, had access to guns, or were able to legally purchase guns" up until the moment they went on their rampage.

    In that sense ranting about crime rates in general is in a sense irrelevant to the specific type of crime that has the gun control issue back in the public eye.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Why do we insist on very high standards of commercial airliner maintenance? Look at your chances of dying in one.
    Yeah. Let's just ban airplanes. After all, it's well known that airplanes kill people.

  8. #158
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    I report them. ."
    Report away to your heart's content. It only makes you look more childish.

  9. #159
    GiancarloC
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    Yeah. Let's just ban airplanes. After all, it's well known that airplanes kill people.
    And as Corny said... some posts here are full of logical fallacies and this is just another one. Nice slippery slope fallacy. It's the same right wing religious fundamentalists use against gay people.

  10. #160
    GiancarloC
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by itsmejeff View Post
    There is a study linked in the article.
    Thanks for the study from that right wing organization. Anymore falsehoods I can look at?

    No, individual with child-like abilities in logic, it does not. Crime rates are generally lower prior to changes in firearms laws. New York and California have seen decreases in crime prior to weapons laws went into effect. There has been a consistent decline in crime since the 1990s. Not because of less guns either. The majority of people are committing less crimes (theories abound, but the reasons are unknown).
    And the petulant insults continue with more inane dribble attached. For one, my abilities in logic vastly outweigh your own. No, New York and California saw declines in crime rates after gun laws were implemented. Our crime rate was very high prior to it being in effect. This is just a fact.

    Other places have seen no effect from firearms laws. The District of Columbia and Chicago are examples there. Why? Because the relationship between crime and firearms laws is tenuous at best. Firearms are durable. They last a long time. Law does little to change that. Weapons will always be available. People who want them will be able to get them. People looking to engage in criminal activity just ignore law. People working in the market for illegal substances need firearms as they have no court protection for contracts.
    Wrong again. Laws are not being effectively enforced and laws are not uniform from state to state. States don't closely monitor their borders.

    As an aside, I have a magic stick that prevents tornadoes. There has never been a tornado near me. I will sell it to you--guy who has never taken a course in statistics and clearly is lacking in an ability to understand causation--for US$1 million.
    Thanks for more of the same nonense. More illogical uber-emotional arguments not based on anything real. And I have taken plenty of courses in statistics, but keep up the personal attacks. I majored in political science and I most certainly did take several stat courses. Maturity please?

    Do a bit of reading. Look at peer reviewed journals about Japanese culture and reporting of rape and sexual assault specifically. enough has been written about it. Suicide is also seen as responsible in Japan. See "inseki-jisatsu." different culture. Different views.'
    "Do a bit of reading" - typical of someone who provides absolutely no sources and doesn't back up his own argument.

    The problem here is that you do not understand math. It is not unexpected, but it prevents any actual examination of facts.
    Utter bullshit. I'm not the one who doesn't understand math. Where are these facts you keep talking about? Asides from yet another right organization I have yet to see any.

    All the self absorbed right wingers can do is insult those on the left and just slap the "liberal" label on them as if it proves anything.
    Last edited by GiancarloC; February 11th, 2013 at 11:49 AM.

  11. #161
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    And as Corny said... some posts here are full of logical fallacies and this is just another one. Nice slippery slope fallacy. It's the same right wing religious fundamentalists use against gay people.
    If banning airplanes because they kill people is a logical fallacy, then so is banning guns for the same reason.

    Guns (and airplanes, for that matter) don't kill people. They have to be wielded (or piloted) by a human being to make that happen.
    To whine and bleat about guns killing people is as stupid and pointless as stating that pencils make mistakes

  12. #162

    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    I'd like to ask at this point, how many of those, responsible for shooting sprees in the last decade were criminals? Before the attacks i mean. Its blatantly obvious that addressing the causes of crime is only gonna lower the death toll. Its not going to bring an end to shooting sprees.
    None to very few. Mass shootings are not a rational crime. There is no real gain in them. Not exactly a place for the career criminal. they are mostly middle-to-upper class male "whities" with no criminal record (which is the opposite of regular murders, where is mostly people with criminal records). But it is hard to draw any real conclusions due to the rarity of the crimes.

    How exactly does this matter is the real query. The problem with mass killings, many terrorist acts, and other notable violent acts is that they are not predictable. People who are perceived as normal or normal enough end up doing really heinous things. Not like crazy things though. All cases require significant planning and forethought.

    This is why stupid people go the ban certain weapons angle. They believe that they can stop violence by removing tools. As though humans cannot create new tools. The 9/11 gentlemen killed thousands with basic blades and aircraft. humans are smart that way. Tool use is a major factor in the species' success.
    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Why do we insist on very high standards of commercial airliner maintenance? Look at your chances of dying in one.
    What is funny, child, is that airline accidents are another area where emotion trumps statistics. Fatal airline incidents are exceedingly rare. ACRO puts fatalities from 1918-2011 at 129'362 (http://www.baaa-acro.com/Liste%20des...ar%20annee.htm). Yet people still fear flying. Automobiles have a higher likelihood of fatal incidents, but few think twice about getting in a car.

    Firearm homicides were 8583 in 2011. That is a very smell number. Compare it with other causes of death in the US (http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/dvs/dea...0_release.pdf; ignore if you hate math--you probably do as location is in the US). Twice as many people die from suicide with firearms. About four times as many die from all methods of suicide. The overwhelming majority of firearm homicides involve handguns. Rifles and shotguns ("assault" or not) are rarely used in homicides.

  13. #163
    GiancarloC
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    If banning airplanes because they kill people is a logical fallacy, then so is banning guns for the same reason.

    Guns (and airplanes, for that matter) don't kill people. They have to be wielded (or piloted) by a human being to make that happen.
    To whine and bleat about guns killing people is as stupid and pointless as stating that pencils make mistakes
    Thanks for the continued use of a logical fallacy. Airplanes don't shoot people and are very safe to take. The lack of logic among the right wingers is astounding... I guess logic goes out the window when they are trying to make purely a political and uber-emotional argument.

    If gay people get married, people will married their dogs, their toasters, their sisters... that's basically the same kind of argument.... same shit, different day.

    This country obviously needs stronger gun control laws, and uniform ones too nationwide.
    Last edited by GiancarloC; February 11th, 2013 at 12:04 PM.

  14. #164

    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    a boatload of ignorance all contained in one post
    History tells another story. Crime increased during the 1980s (coke bears a lot of the blame there). It peaked and then decreased. The 1990s were a period of lower crime rates. Was it gun laws that did it? Nope. Gun laws changed after crime was already decreasing. The laws that went into effect were also of questionable benefit.

    I like the appeal to authority as well. You are an expert now, huh?

    Laws are not being effectively enforced because it is too difficult to prevent people from getting things that they want. Not just guns either. If you want it, there is someone willing to supply it. Not just normals either. Police have been involved in illegal weapons sales (http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...icle-1.1189430). How do laws get enforced when the police are willing to violate them?
    This country obviously needs stronger gun control laws, and uniform ones too nationwide.
    Obviously? Based upon what? What laws would have an actual effect on reducing crime and increasing safety? How would those best be established and enforced?

    Of course, you do not know. You base everything on emotion.

    People who benefit from criminal activity will still commit crime. People who want to kill will still do it. That is life. The best solutions are those which would be workable and improve public safety. Stupid people--which are mostly liberals for this issue--fail to understand that. They believe that there is a magic wand that will make them safe and change human behavior.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Thanks for the continued use of a logical fallacy.
    , .
    There is no logical fallacy in a basic truth. Conduct your own scientific test.
    Put a loaded gun on a shelf.
    Watch it carefully 24/7 for as many decades as you wish.
    I promise you that gun will never get up off of that shelf on its own and kill anybody.
    It simply isn't possible for a gun to do that.

    Basic truths always deflate liberal arguments. Always.

  16. #166
    Impish and Mercurial Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post

    If banning airplanes because they kill people is a logical fallacy, then so is banning guns for the same reason.

    Guns (and airplanes, for that matter) don't kill people. They have to be wielded (or piloted) by a human being to make that happen.
    To whine and bleat about guns killing people is as stupid and pointless as stating that pencils make mistakes
    I love how quick conservatives are to compare vehicles to tools designed for killing when they wanna make some idiotic moon-touched argument about "guns don't kill people", conveniently ignoring the "yes, people WITH GUNS kill people" response as if that will make it go away.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  17. #167
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by itsmejeff View Post
    None to very few. Mass shootings are not a rational crime.
    This is precisely why talking about overall crime rates has virtually nothing to do with these senseless mass killing sprees.

    They are purely a function of mental health and loose access to firearms.

    That's why all this talk about crime rates going up or down in this region vs. that region have almost no bearing on the U.S. public mass shooting spree issue.

  18. #168
    GiancarloC
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by itsmejeff View Post
    History tells another story. Crime increased during the 1980s (coke bears a lot of the blame there). It peaked and then decreased. The 1990s were a period of lower crime rates. Was it gun laws that did it? Nope. Gun laws changed after crime was already decreasing. The laws that went into effect were also of questionable benefit.
    Thanks for the historical revisionism... have anything else to prove that non-existent point? The Clinton administration pursued aggressive gun control laws and support for gun control laws was actually far higher during the 1990s... even more than now after all these shootings.

    I like the appeal to authority as well. You are an expert now, huh?
    I never claimed I was. Try to keep the ignorant comments to oneself.

    Laws are not being effectively enforced because it is too difficult to prevent people from getting things that they want. Not just guns either. If you want it, there is someone willing to supply it. Not just normals either. Police have been involved in illegal weapons sales (http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...icle-1.1189430). How do laws get enforced when the police are willing to violate them?
    And now we have the red herrings... to prove the non-existent argument. Nobody was talking about police selling weapons. And thanks for bringing up one article about a drug addicted cop. Obviously they need to do more psychological and physical testing on cops... Chris Dorner proves that all too well. And it's nice someone will bring up one article about one guy and try to prove a bigger point.

    Obviously? Based upon what? What laws would have an actual effect on reducing crime and increasing safety? How would those best be established and enforced?
    They need to uniform and effective. This would increase public safety and reduce crime, as has been the case in countries with stronger gun control laws.

    Of course, you do not know. You base everything on emotion.
    Pot calling the kettle black.

    People who benefit from criminal activity will still commit crime. People who want to kill will still do it. That is life. The best solutions are those which would be workable and improve public safety. Stupid people--which are mostly liberals for this issue--fail to understand that. They believe that there is a magic wand that will make them safe and change human behavior.
    Oh yes, so lets get rid of all our laws while we are it... and stupid people are liberals? OH yes, more nasty insults from someone trying to build up the same old intellectually lazy arguments. The gun culture has failed. And nobody is suggesting a magic wand solution... the right wing argument though is a total and complete failure.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    There is no logical fallacy in a basic truth. Conduct your own scientific test.
    Put a loaded gun on a shelf.
    Watch it carefully 24/7 for as many decades as you wish.
    I promise you that gun will never get up off of that shelf on its own and kill anybody.
    It simply isn't possible for a gun to do that.

    Basic truths always deflate liberal arguments. Always.
    Oh yes, now he says "conduct your own scientific test" when his own arguments are completely unscientific. Nobody was talking about putting a loaded gun on a shelf, but thanks for playing. Keep it up with the illogical red herrings...

  19. #169
    Impish and Mercurial Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Itsmejohn, let me give you an unfriendly piece of advice: I have no idea where you came from, or if this profile is just somebody else's mouthpiece (mods have ways of figuring this out), but with those direct insults and uncovered offensive comments, you will not survive the month in this sub forum. CE&P holds to higher standards than that and personal insults are not tolerated. For your own sake, stick to the opinions and stop throwing in snide remarks and labels of the posters. Whatever jihad you think you're on, every time you address Giancarlo with some name calling angry nerd style, you're losing miles of ground.
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    - - - Updated - - -



    Oh yes, now he says "conduct your own scientific test" when his own arguments are completely unscientific. Nobody was talking about putting a loaded gun on a shelf, ...
    You have been stating that guns kill people when demonsrably they do not.
    If you don't believe it, then conduct the experiment.

  21. #171
    Impish and Mercurial Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    You have been stating that guns kill people when demonsrably they do not.
    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    You have been stating that guns kill people when demonsrably they do not.
    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    when demonsrably they do not.
    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    WHEN DEMONSTRABLY THEY DO NOT.
    Now I've definitely seen it all. But just a few posts from now he'll explain that what he actually meant was that guns BY THEMSELVES don't kill people, as if that is somehow even remotely relevant...
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  22. #172
    GiancarloC
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    You have been stating that guns kill people when demonsrably they do not.
    If you don't believe it, then conduct the experiment.
    Guns do kill people. And nobody was talking about guns on their own... we are talking about guns in the hands of wackos, hence the need for guns control. Try to stay relevant.

  23. #173

    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Thanks for the historical revisionism... have anything else to prove that non-existent point? The Clinton administration pursued aggressive gun control laws and support for gun control laws was actually far higher during the 1990s... even more than now after all these shootings.
    And the laws came after reductions in crime. do you not understand cause and effect? (Why even as at this point?)
    And now we have the red herrings... to prove the non-existent argument. Nobody was talking about police selling weapons. And thanks for bringing up one article about a drug addicted cop. Obviously they need to do more psychological and physical testing on cops... Chris Dorner proves that all too well. And it's nice someone will bring up one article about one guy and try to prove a bigger point.
    not proof of anything. Just pointing out that enforcement requires police action.
    They need to uniform and effective. This would increase public safety and reduce crime, as has been the case in countries with stronger gun control laws.
    Uniform? Why? The US is a union of many different states. Not everyone lives in urban areas (you probably hate people who do not). The realities of life in Alaska as not the same as they are in New York City, child. you may not know what Alaska is, but that is not my problem.
    Oh yes, so lets get rid of all our laws while we are it... and stupid people are liberals? OH yes, more nasty insults from someone trying to build up the same old intellectually lazy arguments. The gun culture has failed. And nobody is suggesting a magic wand solution... the right wing argument though is a total and complete failure
    No, let us not just institute laws to appease the stupid and those who do not understand math and science.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    with those direct insults and uncovered offensive comments, you will not survive the month in this sub forum. CE&P holds to higher standards than that and personal insults are not tolerated.
    I never insult (except when I refer to someone as an "American", which likely the worst insult possible). I merely point out poster's lack of logic. Is that really a bad thing?

    I am a logical person. I do not believe in emotions (psychopaths ftw! it is funny because we are generally more successful). I want things that work and make sense.

  24. #174
    Impish and Mercurial Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Your calling everyone "child" or commenting on their reasoning abilities - apart from having the opposite of the intended effect and actually making you sound like a helpless petty kid - are direct insults and will lead to you being banned. It's just a heads up, not an opening for an argument.

    So far you've shown little logic and a lot of pretentious condescension, but that's never a good replacement for a solid argument.
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Guns do kill people. .
    No they demonstrably do not. Even in a language as sloppy as English admittedly is, words do have meaning, and the statement
    that guns kill people is false.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    - are direct insults
    The truth is never insulting. Unless, of course, you're infected with the cancer of political correctness.

  27. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post

    The truth is never insulting. Unless, of course, you're infected with the cancer of political correctness.
    The truth is nobody's domain, or discussions would not exist. So refrain from sharing "truths" that are just code for "you're an inferior idiot".
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  28. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post

    No they demonstrably do not. Even in a language as sloppy as English admittedly is, words do have meaning, and the statement
    that guns kill people is false.
    For fuck's sake, stay relevant. Trolling the topic out of orbit is so pathetically juvenile!
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    [QUOTE=Rolyo85;8700938]The truth is nobody's domain, QUOTE]

    It most certainly is when dealing with absolutes.

  30. #180

    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    The truth is never insulting. Unless, of course, you're infected with the cancer of political correctness.
    Aren't you guilty of political correctness here? Saying guns don't kill people is foolishness and just towing the NRA politically correct line. In the ordinary understanding of the English language, guns kill people.

    Let's try a thought experiment. Suppose I build a wall alongside my property, but do a sloppy job. Five years later, the wall topples over, killing a passing pedestrian. What or who killed the pedestrian, the wall or me? I would be the agent of the pedestrian's death because I was negligent in building the wall. Do you say palemale killed the pedestrian or the wall killed the pedestrian?

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by palemale View Post
    In the ordinary understanding of the English language, guns kill people.

    Let's try a thought experiment. Suppose I build a wall alongside my property, but do a sloppy job. Five years later, the wall topples over, killing a passing pedestrian. What or who killed the pedestrian, the wall or me? I would be the agent of the pedestrian's death because I was negligent in building the wall. Do you say palemale killed the pedestrian or the wall killed the pedestrian?
    To say that guns kill people is an inaccurate statement.

    In your example, palemale killed the pedestrian, not the wall.
    The wall, like guns, is an inaminate object and cannot take premeditated action.

  32. #182
    GiancarloC
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by itsmejeff View Post
    And the laws came after reductions in crime. do you not understand cause and effect? (Why even as at this point?)
    not proof of anything. Just pointing out that enforcement requires police action.

    Uniform? Why? The US is a union of many different states. Not everyone lives in urban areas (you probably hate people who do not). The realities of life in Alaska as not the same as they are in New York City, child. you may not know what Alaska is, but that is not my problem.

    No, let us not just institute laws to appease the stupid and those who do not understand math and science.

    I never insult (except when I refer to someone as an "American", which likely the worst insult possible). I merely point out poster's lack of logic. Is that really a bad thing?

    I am a logical person. I do not believe in emotions (psychopaths ftw! it is funny because we are generally more successful). I want things that work and make sense.
    oh I get it. I just need to take your word for it... no proof is needed for it right? Where is your proof? I am not the one making the audacious and quite frankly ridiculous claims.

    Where is the proof for your argument?

    We need a FEDERAL LAW. That's how this country works. It's not operated under the Articles of Confederation, but the Constitution. Perhaps take a time machine and go become part of the whig party.

    Thanks for the intellectual dishonesty. I can't wait to see more.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    No they demonstrably do not. Even in a language as sloppy as English admittedly is, words do have meaning, and the statement
    that guns kill people is false.
    And this is what happens when one REFUSES to read the rest of the post and take something out of fucking context.

  33. #183
    Impish and Mercurial Rolyo85's Avatar
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    No, he's deliberately focusing on pointless semantics to derail the topic. Because that's what trolls do.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Step 1: Say thing based off common sense/watercooler logic
    Step 2: Expect everyone to agree
    Step 3: If they don't agree insult them, call them child and make blanket accusations of ignorance

    Repeat as necessary.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    No, he's deliberately focusing on pointless semantics to derail the topic. Because that's what trolls do.
    Semantics, perhaps. Pointless, no.
    Which of the followig statments is more nearly accurate?

    Uncle Joe was killed by a gun;
    or
    Uncle Joe was killed by a man wielding a gun.

    The latter of the two statements is accurate; the former is misleading.
    Which is what the anti-gun crowd is attempting to accomplish: gain support using misdirection

  36. #186
    GiancarloC
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Yep, totally pointless. Respond to the ENTIRE post and not just portions taken out of context. Gain support using misdirection? Sounds like most of the right wingers on here who never bother backing up their arguments.

  37. #187
    Impish and Mercurial Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post

    Semantics, perhaps. Pointless, no.
    Which of the followig statments is more nearly accurate?

    Uncle Joe was killed by a gun;
    or
    Uncle Joe was killed by a man wielding a gun.

    The latter of the two statements is accurate; the former is misleading.
    Which is what the anti-gun crowd is attempting to accomplish: gain support using misdirection
    Actually, when the debate is about a particular murder tool, the former is the accurate one, since it focuses on the tool rather than the irrelevant identity of the perpetuator.

    But it was endearing to watch you try to be condescending while having a "gotcha" grade school linguistic moment...
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Actually, when the debate is about a particular murder tool, the former is the accurate one, since it focuses on the tool rather than the irrelevant identity of the perpetuator.

    ...
    You still don't get it or are you simply dissembling? The first statement is never accurate, and the debate, such as it is, is being deliberately misdirected toward the tool rather than the perpetrator, the identity and motives of whom are never irrelevant. Never.

  39. #189

    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    All the murderers will have to be released from prison. They didn't kill anyone. The guns, knives, ball bats. Did it.

  40. #190
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    You guys INSIST on lowering the conversation to this level of argument? Seriously?

    Fine, have it your way. Another topic successfully murdered with trolling.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  41. #191
    Are u haleloo ya ? Telstra's Avatar
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    All the murderers will have to be released from prison. They didn't kill anyone. The guns, knives, ball bats. Did it.
    which category did this post fall under?
    link below:
    http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/


    NEVER LISTEN TO A ONE SIDED STORY AND JUDGE.

  42. #192
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Telstra View Post
    which category did this post fall under?
    link below:
    http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/
    After careful consideration, I think it's the "no true scotsman" fallacy. Could also be the "fallacy" fallacy.

    Though ultimately, the only thing those guys are truly capable of, are straw men.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    All the murderers will have to be released from prison. They didn't kill anyone. The guns, knives, ball bats. Did it.
    Aside from the other logical problems with this statement that others have drawn attention to, you are capable of a whole level of mass killing with firearms that you are not capable of with a knife or bat.

    By your same reasoning that nothing is wrong with the weapons, only the person who uses them, why can't I have a nuke?

    I REALLY do want one.

  44. #194
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Ooh, nice way to switch in midstream, from civilian sources to the military.
    Way to try and make a point and then totally ignore you tried to make it when it is refuted.

    Let me just remind you of what you said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr
    Very few weapons from the US get to those countries -- they get far more from each others' militaries, which leak guns like a gum machine 'leaks' gumballs.
    So yes, my point was completely relevant to the topic YOU brought up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    The Second Amendment doesn't talk about "precision guided missiles or NBC weapons".
    It also doesn't talk about assault rifles. Or handguns. Or muskets. Or shotguns. It talks about "arms" which everything above, including precision guided missiles and NBC weapons, falls under.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Of course not -- they know they can't go there overnight, which is why they stir up emotions every chance they get in order to try to pass laws which have nothing much to do with the issue they're crying over but a lot to do with making it harder for law-abiding Americans to exercise their right to keep and bear arms.
    Slippery slope is a logical fallacy, sir. To argue that someone is in favor of something when they haven't actually said or done anything to support that is an argument of convenience and doesn't hold any water. Also, the framers of the Constitution made no mention of it being super simple to obtain the arms that people have a right to bear. On the contrary, they actually explicitly stated that the militia holding those arms should be "well regulated" which, at least in my mind, means that regulations are fair game. As long as the right isn't being denied (which we determined earlier no one has tried to do), then there is no problem.

  45. #195
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    All the murderers will have to be released from prison. They didn't kill anyone. The guns, knives, ball bats. Did it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Telstra View Post
    which category did this post fall under?
    link below:
    http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/
    It's actually "Red Herring" presented in the form of "Slippery Slope."
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    This is a stunning admission. Americans do see violence as a legitimate avenue to decision making. Without even lamenting it. All I can say to the rest of the world is, "This is the problem we have to contain." Nationshambles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Here is why comparing the US to those 'third world' countries is legitimate: what the US shares with them and not with Europe et al is a culture that believes that violence is a legitimate avenue to decision-making.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    All the murderers will have to be released from prison. They didn't kill anyone. The guns, knives, ball bats. Did it.
    Makes perfect sense, given that certain elements in society have long been pushing the agenda that people aren't responsible for their actions. Gotta blame it on something, so enter guns.

  48. #198

    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Actually, it is known as " reductio ad absurdum". It is not a fallacy, it is a logical technique of showing the absurdity of a proposition by applying it.

  49. #199
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    Semantics, perhaps. Pointless, no.
    Which of the followig statments is more nearly accurate?

    Uncle Joe was killed by a gun;
    or
    Uncle Joe was killed by a man wielding a gun.

    The latter of the two statements is accurate; the former is misleading.
    Which is what the anti-gun crowd is attempting to accomplish: gain support using misdirection
    Both statements are accurate. Uncle Joe died from a bullet wound which was caused by a man firing a gun. Without the man, the gun most likely would not have caused the bullet wound and without the gun, the man most likely would not have caused the bullet wound. They're two dependent parts of the same issue. Without people using them, guns won't shoot people. However, without guns, people also will not shoot people.

  50. #200
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    Makes perfect sense, given that certain elements in society have long been pushing the agenda that people aren't responsible for their actions. Gotta blame it on something, so enter guns.
    Yeah, nobody here has said this. It's entirely in your head, and you're responsible for it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Actually, it is known as " reductio ad absurdum". It is not a fallacy, it is a logical technique of showing the absurdity of a proposition by applying it.
    Again - you're applying a proposition nobody has made. It's in your head. You're trying to reduce a complex concept into a shallow idiotic fallacy, so that you can make it easy to rebuff. We call that straw man.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

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