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  1. #101
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    What they want is irrelevant. What matters is - as buzzer said - whether the PARTICULAR steps are a good idea or not. When the idea is no longer good, it will not be supported and it will not be implemented.
    Wow -- that's so far from reality Sarah Palin wouldn't even claim to be able to see it from her state.

    Politicians don't care if an idea is good, only if it will jerk at some emotions so they can claim to be "doing something".

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  2. #102
    Impish and Mercurial Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Silent? Not at all.

    What's depressing is that you won't face up to being part of a culture that doesn't mind being property.
    Now you're calling me property? Thank you. It's always nice to know how much people respect you...
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  3. #103
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    And yet the generalizations continue. For one not every culture views guns the same way as this one. And if I don't support the free flow of guns doesn't mean I'm against freedom of speech or freedom of choice. That's total baloney. Stop trying to change the subject.
    Not every culture views being gay the same way -- but I don't hear you cheering for the way things are in IRan or Uganda.

    Rights are rights. You can't rip a discussion about a right out of that fabric and claim to be looking at it rationally. If you can dismiss the right to keep and bear arms as a cultural thing, then the Iranians and their ilk can dismiss the right of gays to live equal before the law as a cultural thing.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  4. #104
    GiancarloC
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Not every culture views being gay the same way -- but I don't hear you cheering for the way things are in IRan or Uganda.

    Rights are rights. You can't rip a discussion about a right out of that fabric and claim to be looking at it rationally. If you can dismiss the right to keep and bear arms as a cultural thing, then the Iranians and their ilk can dismiss the right of gays to live equal before the law as a cultural thing.
    Bullshit comparison. Absolutely weak. And what abuot Iran and Uganda? NOBODY BROUGHT UP IRAN AND UGANDA.

    This pisses me off to no end. Gay rights are not these so called "gun rights". Gay rights are something FAR DIFFERENT. Europe isn't Iran or Uganda. Thanks for the red herring.

    Oh and FYI, my country has TOUGH gun control laws and GAY MARRIAGE. So that comparison is rubbished!

    I wasn't born with a gun. I was born gay however. I can throw a gun in the garbage. I can't throw my sexuality in the garbage.
    Last edited by GiancarloC; February 10th, 2013 at 11:46 PM.

  5. #105
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Which news?

    Probably this one:



    Some cultures like the one I'm from do not view guns as part of freedom and we are very happy with our freedoms (just not our corrupt government with Rajoy taking kickbacks in prior years). Simple as that. And that desire should be respected.
    You're claiming that only FOX reports violent crime? Amazing -- I could swear I heard about the Portland shooting on BBC America.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  6. #106
    GiancarloC
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    You're claiming that only FOX reports violent crime? Amazing -- I could swear I heard about the Portland shooting on BBC America.
    Oh puh-leaze. Violent crime? So I need to go get a gun to defend myself? LOL That's not sound logic at all. I don't even care about that Dorner wacko running around. I still am NOT buying a gun.

    I will not fall to fear.

  7. #107
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Oh what a pile of condescending manure. Those cultures are not about being property. That's utterly insulting and downright disgusting characterization.

    Maybe some should wrap their minds around the fact that other cultures don't revolve around guns.
    Any culture that tells people they have to accept that their government doesn't want them to be defended against violent crime is telling people they're property. Their government is saying to them, "We don't consider your lives valuable enough to allow you to fight off the murderer or burglar or rapist -- just let them abuse or kill you."

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  8. #108
    Impish and Mercurial Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Not every culture views being gay the same way -- but I don't hear you cheering for the way things are in IRan or Uganda.

    Rights are rights. You can't rip a discussion about a right out of that fabric and claim to be looking at it rationally. If you can dismiss the right to keep and bear arms as a cultural thing, then the Iranians and their ilk can dismiss the right of gays to live equal before the law as a cultural thing.
    This is a dumb comparison. We don't claim tolerance for all different cultures on everything. We don't agree with discrimination of gay people, so we don't agree with Uganda. We don't agree with gun culture, so we don't agree with the US. Quite simple really.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  9. #109
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Now you're calling me property? Thank you. It's always nice to know how much people respect you...
    No, I'm pointing out that your government considers you property. If they thought you were a person, they'd allow you to defend yourself against attackers.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  10. #110
    GiancarloC
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Any culture that tells people they have to accept that their government doesn't want them to be defended against violent crime is telling people they're property. Their government is saying to them, "We don't consider your lives valuable enough to allow you to fight off the murderer or burglar or rapist -- just let them abuse or kill you."
    More false rhetoric at that. Guns don't defend against anything except for the big bad man in the dark... it's all perception and it's a society of fear. And no, not property. Not in Europe and not in my home country. Don't insult my country and engage in xenophobia. And that quotation is just partisan rubbish.

    My government (Spain) DOES NOT consider me property. Period.
    Last edited by GiancarloC; February 10th, 2013 at 11:52 PM.

  11. #111
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Bullshit comparison. Absolutely weak. And what abuot Iran and Uganda? NOBODY BROUGHT UP IRAN AND UGANDA.

    This pisses me off to no end. Gay rights are not these so called "gun rights". Gay rights are something FAR DIFFERENT. Europe isn't Iran or Uganda. Thanks for the red herring.

    Oh and FYI, my country has TOUGH gun control laws and GAY MARRIAGE. So that comparison is rubbished!

    I wasn't born with a gun. I was born gay however. I can throw a gun in the garbage. I can't throw my sexuality in the garbage.
    You were born with a life. If it's valuable, it's worth defending. The gay rights fight is about defending your life, just the same as the right to keep and bear arms.

    Rights are rights. The moment you start relativizing them, you have none.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  12. #112
    GiancarloC
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    You were born with a life. If it's valuable, it's worth defending. The gay rights fight is about defending your life, just the same as the right to keep and bear arms.

    Rights are rights.
    I don't need a fucking gun to "defend" my life. Simple as that, and gun "rights" aren't rights. They are just a privilege. It's not the same at all as "to keep and bear arms". My country views equality as vital, but not guns. Maybe a farmer or hunter can have it (with tough restrictions), but most citizens do not feel the need to own one nor is it viewed as necessary culturally.

    And I come from a very LIBERAL country when it comes to equal rights.

  13. #113
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Oh puh-leaze. Violent crime? So I need to go get a gun to defend myself? LOL That's not sound logic at all. I don't even care about that Dorner wacko running around. I still am NOT buying a gun.

    I will not fall to fear.
    No, you fall to fantasy. I know several people who would not be alive today if they had not been carrying -- myself almost certainly included.

    So your position boils down to being happy that people get killed by criminals.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  14. #114
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    This is a dumb comparison. We don't claim tolerance for all different cultures on everything. We don't agree with discrimination of gay people, so we don't agree with Uganda. We don't agree with gun culture, so we don't agree with the US. Quite simple really.
    So you don't believe that people actually have rights at all, just opinions.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  15. #115
    GiancarloC
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    No, you fall to fantasy. I know several people who would not be alive today if they had not been carrying -- myself almost certainly included.

    So your position boils down to being happy that people get killed by criminals.
    The only one falling to fantasy here isn't me. Thanks for the anecdotal "evidence". I've lived in some rough neighborhoods, never owned a gun and am doing fine. If I owned one likely I would be in a morgue.

    Thanks for the rhetoric... keep it coming. It's definitely partisan and based on total fear.

  16. #116
    Impish and Mercurial Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    No, I'm pointing out that your government considers you property. If they thought you were a person, they'd allow you to defend yourself against attackers.
    Nope, that's just semantics. You are calling me property. Because to you that's a decision I've made - to "relinquish" something that is supposedly a part of me. My government doesn't consider me property. I can replace that government whenever I choose. The only difference is that the chance of me getting shot on the street is a 100 times smaller than here in the US.

    And I still take it as a personal insult from you to me.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  17. #117
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    More false rhetoric at that. Guns don't defend against anything except for the big bad man in the dark... it's all perception and it's a society of fear. And no, not property. Not in Europe and not in my home country. Don't insult my country and engage in xenophobia. And that quotation is just partisan rubbish.

    My government (Spain) DOES NOT consider me property. Period.
    And here you've been lying to us that you're an American.

    Guns protect against actual threats -- if you disagree with that, then you're holding the position that BBC, CNN, NBC, CBS, Reuers, and all the rest are engaged in a vast conspiracy of making up stories about violence against innocent people.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  18. #118
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    The only one falling to fantasy here isn't me. Thanks for the anecdotal "evidence". I've lived in some rough neighborhoods, never owned a gun and am doing fine. If I owned one likely I would be in a morgue.

    Thanks for the rhetoric... keep it coming. It's definitely partisan and based on total fear.
    It's based on the same thing air bags in cars are: reality.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  19. #119
    GiancarloC
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    And here you've been lying to us that you're an American.

    Guns protect against actual threats -- if you disagree with that, then you're holding the position that BBC, CNN, NBC, CBS, Reuers, and all the rest are engaged in a vast conspiracy of making up stories about violence against innocent people.
    Um, I was talking about my HOME Country... the ONE I was born. I never said anything about being an American. I do have citizenship here, but I am originally from Spain. So where is the lie?

    Guns don't protect from that. People who usually own them end up in a body bag when they get pistol whipped with their own weapon. And as far as all those networks named... doesn't prove anything. Violence happens... but it doesn't justify the need to own a gun.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    It's based on the same thing air bags in cars are: reality.
    Total partisan rhetoric. That's NOT reality. That's fear. And it has nothing to do with air bags. Thanks for the red herring!

  20. #120
    Impish and Mercurial Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    So you don't believe that people actually have rights at all, just opinions.
    No, what I believe is that they have the rights that they have forged for themselves, and they are just as "right" and "inalienable" and "intrinsic" as the structure that is built to defend them. For 20 000 years of human civilization, most people did not have those rights. That tells us something important. Every right we think we have, only exist as long as the power to enforce it exists. Which means that those rights are a subject to change if the structure changes. Anything else is empty philosophy.
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  21. #121
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Leaders of the anti-gun organizations are on record that their goal is to take away all guns. Since liberals so blithely rely on those organizations for talking points, it is reasonable to assume they have the same goal.
    Kul when the nation en masse is having a discussion after something like Sandy Hook about more gun control, do you really sincerely believe it's all being orchestrated under one monolithic agenda and that everyone agrees on some secret extreme home invasion and confiscation platform? Really?

    I don't see how opposing all gun control attempts on the justification that you believe some PORTION of it wants total confiscation is any better than taking any other extremist position like let's kill all Muslims because of Islamist extremists.

  22. #122
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Nope, that's just semantics. You are calling me property. Because to you that's a decision I've made - to "relinquish" something that is supposedly a part of me. My government doesn't consider me property. I can replace that government whenever I choose. The only difference is that the chance of me getting shot on the street is a 100 times smaller than here in the US.
    The semantics is when you take a statement of fact and make it a personal attack.

    And the chance of you getting shot on the street there is little different from that in the US, as long as you're not involved in crime.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    And I still take it as a personal insult from you to me.
    That's your personal issue. If your government would rather let you fall prey to a criminal, without the means to make sure the criminal loses, then they are in cooperation with the criminals to make you a victim.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  23. #123
    GiancarloC
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post

    That's your personal issue. If your government would rather let you fall prey to a criminal, without the means to make sure the criminal loses, then they are in cooperation with the criminals to make you a victim.
    I guess this argument lives around a circular argument and the "because I say so" argument.

    Edit: Note... in a previous post I said "my government". I meant to say "my country". While I do possess a passport from Spain, and I am a US Citizen... dual-citizenship.

    http://barcelona.usconsulate.gov/cit...rths/dual.html - Some info on this... if curious.
    Last edited by GiancarloC; February 11th, 2013 at 12:05 AM.

  24. #124
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Um, I was talking about my HOME Country... the ONE I was born. I never said anything about being an American. I do have citizenship here, but I am originally from Spain. So where is the lie?

    Guns don't protect from that. People who usually own them end up in a body bag when they get pistol whipped with their own weapon. And as far as all those networks named... doesn't prove anything. Violence happens... but it doesn't justify the need to own a gun.
    Please provide a source showing that tens of millions of people in the US end up in body bags each year, which is what your claim means.

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Total partisan rhetoric. That's NOT reality. That's fear. And it has nothing to do with air bags. Thanks for the red herring!
    Oh -- assault, rape, school shootings and such aren't reality.

    Air bags are protection against an incredibly unlikely event. Carrying a firearm is the same thing.

    See, illness happens... but it doesn't justify the need to have doctors. Sleep happens... but it doesn't justify the need to have beds. Ice happens... but it doesn't justify the need to have sand for the roads. Tsunamis happen... but it doesn't justify the need to have evacuation routes.

    You're actually arguing HenryReardon's position, that people should be required to face all the dangers of life with no means to deal with them unless you're rich.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  25. #125
    GiancarloC
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Please provide a source showing that tens of millions of people in the US end up in body bags each year, which is what your claim means.
    Please provide for your statements... oh wait... that's right... it's a circular argument. I was talking about myself personally there more. If I had a gun in certain situations I probably wouldn't be here.

    Oh -- assault, rape, school shootings and such aren't reality.
    Again this doesn't prove anything. Of course they are a reality. But a gun wouldn't save the day. Just ask the victims at Fort Hood that. There were plenty of guns there I'm sure. But a gun won't stop those things. Just raise the possibility of getting pistol whipped and perhaps... ending up in the morgue.

    Air bags are protection against an incredibly unlikely event. Carrying a firearm is the same thing.
    No, not the same. A firearm isn't protection.


    See, illness happens... but it doesn't justify the need to have doctors. Sleep happens... but it doesn't justify the need to have beds. Ice happens... but it doesn't justify the need to have sand for the roads. Tsunamis happen... but it doesn't justify the need to have evacuation routes.
    Thanks for more red herrings. Keep them coming and I'll keep laughing. I could bust my toe against a door. Better have a toe guard just in case right?


    You're actually arguing HenryReardon's position, that people should be required to face all the dangers of life with no means to deal with them unless you're rich.
    Nope.

  26. #126
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Air bags are protection against an incredibly unlikely event. Carrying a firearm is the same thing.
    If airbags killed more people on orders of magnitude than it saved or helped in car accidents I'd say let's either redesign or get rid of them.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    No, what I believe is that they have the rights that they have forged for themselves, and they are just as "right" and "inalienable" and "intrinsic" as the structure that is built to defend them. For 20 000 years of human civilization, most people did not have those rights. That tells us something important. Every right we think we have, only exist as long as the power to enforce it exists. Which means that those rights are a subject to change if the structure changes. Anything else is empty philosophy.
    That position merely renames privilege with a noble-sounding word, turning "rights" into a myth promulgated by those with power to pacify the masses. It makes cannibalism equal to compassion, murder equal to mercy, despotism equal to democracy. It is, in short, the philosophy that there are no morals, there is only the convenience of those with force at their disposal.

    Government is force, nothing more nor less. The only difference between governments is twofold: in what they do with their privilege of force, and in whether they have a monopoly. Where they have a monopoly, the condition is tyranny, however it may be prettified and hidden.

    Humans have always had their rights, but for most of history they believed the same lie you do: that what counts is power, not humanity; force, and not dignity.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    The semantics is when you take a statement of fact and make it a personal attack.

    And the chance of you getting shot on the street there is little different from that in the US, as long as you're not involved in crime.
    Your "facts" are offensive, and not really "facts" at all. A fact is that Obama won the election in November. A fact is that a number of kids got murdered at Sandy Hook. That not glorifying guns and choosing to not make them freely available to any lunatic out there makes you a loser who has chosen to be "property", is not a "fact". It's your personal opinion, and warped ideology. Don't dare call it "fact".

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    That's your personal issue. If your government would rather let you fall prey to a criminal, without the means to make sure the criminal loses, then they are in cooperation with the criminals to make you a victim.
    Criminals in my country don't have guns because guns aren't freely available in my country, so there isn't that many of them to go around. Sorry if that pisses on your "facts".
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    If airbags killed more people on orders of magnitude than it saved or helped in car accidents I'd say let's either redesign or get rid of them.
    So you're a utilitarian of the variety which believes that people as statistics are to be protected above people as individuals -- that the herd is more important than the individual.

    Rights do not depend on whether some find them not practical.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    So you're a utilitarian of the variety which believes that people as statistics are to be protected above people as individuals -- that the herd is more important than the individual.

    Rights do not depend on whether some find them not practical.
    When the rights of the individual endanger the community of individuals they have to be tempered.

    Which is why the 2nd Amendment does not entitle you to a nuclear weapon.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Your "facts" are offensive, and not really "facts" at all. A fact is that Obama won the election in November. A fact is that a number of kids got murdered at Sandy Hook. That not glorifying guns and choosing to not make them freely available to any lunatic out there makes you a loser who has chosen to be "property", is not a "fact". It's your personal opinion, and warped ideology. Don't dare call it "fact".



    Criminals in my country don't have guns because guns aren't freely available in my country, so there isn't that many of them to go around. Sorry if that pisses on your "facts".
    If a government tells its people that they can't have firearms, they're making them prey for criminals -- that's a fact. It may not be palatable, but it's still a fact. Every person killed or raped by a criminal because they couldn't get to a firearm for their defense was victimized as much by their government as by the perpetrator, because the government established the situation wherein the criminal could exercise his will.

    It's irrelevant whether the criminals have guns -- what's relevant is that the government denying them to the innocent is conspiring to aid the criminal.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    When the rights of the individual endanger the community of individuals they have to be tempered.

    Which is why the 2nd Amendment does not entitle you to a nuclear weapon.
    No, the Second Amendment doesn't entitle you to a nuclear weapon, because it doesn't talk about them at all -- it talks about keeping and bearing arms under the concept of the militia.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    That position merely renames privilege with a noble-sounding word, turning "rights" into a myth promulgated by those with power to pacify the masses. It makes cannibalism equal to compassion, murder equal to mercy, despotism equal to democracy. It is, in short, the philosophy that there are no morals, there is only the convenience of those with force at their disposal.

    Government is force, nothing more nor less. The only difference between governments is twofold: in what they do with their privilege of force, and in whether they have a monopoly. Where they have a monopoly, the condition is tyranny, however it may be prettified and hidden.

    Humans have always had their rights, but for most of history they believed the same lie you do: that what counts is power, not humanity; force, and not dignity.
    Ideology is not fact. Deal with it. Just because you believe in rights being intrinsic, doesn't make it so. And, frankly, it's irrelevant to reality either way.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    No, the Second Amendment doesn't entitle you to a nuclear weapon, because it doesn't talk about them at all -- it talks about keeping and bearing arms under the concept of the militia.
    It didn't talk about them at all because they didn't exist yet in 1776.

    But the concept of the right to individual arms to ensure government could never become tyrannical would naturally need to expand as the machinery of war advanced so that citizens always had commensurate power to stop a government from oppressing them.

    So if we accept the 2nd Amendment as rigidly as you say we must as a universal, unquestionable natural human right, I want my nuke. It's the only want to ensure the government can't oppress me, I can't take on the army with a handgun.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by andysayshi View Post
    Relax everybody.

    Steven Seagal is training a civilian posse in Arizona to keep schools safe.






    Seriously.


    http://www.smh.com.au/world/sheriff-...211-2e78s.html
    Laughable.
    Those teachers are dead before they can go and get a gun.


    NEVER LISTEN TO A ONE SIDED STORY AND JUDGE.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    If a government tells its people that they can't have firearms, they're making them prey for criminals -- that's a fact. It may not be palatable, but it's still a fact. Every person killed or raped by a criminal because they couldn't get to a firearm for their defense was victimized as much by their government as by the perpetrator, because the government established the situation wherein the criminal could exercise his will.

    It's irrelevant whether the criminals have guns -- what's relevant is that the government denying them to the innocent is conspiring to aid the criminal.
    Government is part of the people. If the people wanted guns, they would have made the government change the laws so we could have them. We don't want them. They are gross and breed violence, and all advanced cultures have realized that. Unfortunately, your half of the US is not an advanced culture.

    And your entire stance is violently hypocritical, in case you aren't aware of it.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    If a government tells its people that they can't have firearms, they're making them prey for criminals -- that's a fact.
    Then explain why we are more prey to criminals-- and often ones who have guns-- than people in more regulated first world societies.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Government is part of the people. If the people wanted guns, they would have made the government change the laws so we could have them. We don't want them. They are gross and breed violence, and all advanced cultures have realized that. Unfortunately, your half of the US is not an advanced culture.

    And your entire stance is violently hypocritical, in case you aren't aware of it.
    Who is the "we" in "We don't want them."? I hope you are not purporting to speak for a "the people". Few are saying they want to take all guns away. We Americans, by a large majority, have always wanted to retain the right to bear arms.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    More people have died by guns in the U.S. than in all the wars we have fought.
    http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...e-killed-guns/

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post

    You're actually arguing HenryReardon's position, that people should be required to face all the dangers of life with no means to deal with them unless you're rich.
    Kindly provide proof of that ridiculous statement.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by lambdaboy View Post
    More people have died by guns in the U.S. than in all the wars we have fought.
    url]
    So what? Was there a point to that bit of nonsense?

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    . They are gross and breed violence, and all advanced cultures have realized that. t.
    More nonsense. Please provide proof that guns are capable of doing anything - unless a violent human being is holding them.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Thanks for the blog article... doesn't do much in comparing or contrasting at all. And America's crime rate isn't that low. And the insult that was deleted in your post.
    There is a study linked in the article. http://www.cepr.org/meets/wkcn/9/979...nnano_etal.pdf
    But it's still very high in contrast to European countries that have lower rates of crime. Liberals hate facts? Everyone can look at this thread and point to the fact that conservatives are the one that hates facts. By the way, Los Angeles has seen its crime rate drop to the lowest point in decades. California has some of the strictest gun control laws in the country. So what does that do to that argument? It absolutely destroys it.
    No, individual with child-like abilities in logic, it does not. Crime rates are generally lower prior to changes in firearms laws. New York and California have seen decreases in crime prior to weapons laws went into effect. There has been a consistent decline in crime since the 1990s. Not because of less guns either. The majority of people are committing less crimes (theories abound, but the reasons are unknown).

    Other places have seen no effect from firearms laws. The District of Columbia and Chicago are examples there. Why? Because the relationship between crime and firearms laws is tenuous at best. Firearms are durable. They last a long time. Law does little to change that. Weapons will always be available. People who want them will be able to get them. People looking to engage in criminal activity just ignore law. People working in the market for illegal substances need firearms as they have no court protection for contracts.

    As an aside, I have a magic stick that prevents tornadoes. There has never been a tornado near me. I will sell it to you--guy who has never taken a course in statistics and clearly is lacking in an ability to understand causation--for US$1 million.
    It's nice to see someone post so many misconceptions about another culture... I guess right wingers do that a lot... misinterpreting and mischaracterizing other cultures.
    Do a bit of reading. Look at peer reviewed journals about Japanese culture and reporting of rape and sexual assault specifically. enough has been written about it. Suicide is also seen as responsible in Japan. See "inseki-jisatsu." different culture. Different views.'

    The problem here is that you do not understand math. It is not unexpected, but it prevents any actual examination of facts.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Government is part of the people. If the people wanted guns, they would have made the government change the laws so we could have them. We don't want them. They are gross and breed violence, and all advanced cultures have realized that. Unfortunately, your half of the US is not an advanced culture.
    Not quite.

    What firearms are is effective. They do not cause anything. Fatality rates are higher with firearms than other weapons. Again, most murders are unplanned. Using a firearm is somewhat easier than using other weapons, so people who are shot are more likely to die. But violence is inherent in the species. And other species as well. Primates kill. A lot. Infanticide, murder, and war-like acts of aggression to take over territory are seen in chimpanzees.

    What actually is happening is that stupid people are failing to examine the root causes of crime. They blame firearms because it is easy. Liberals are just as bad at math and science as conservatives. That is a very American quality.
    Last edited by itsmejeff; February 11th, 2013 at 06:44 AM.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post

    Criminals in my country don't have guns because guns aren't freely available in my country, so there isn't that many of them to go around. ".
    If "your" country is such a utopian paradise, why are you here wasting valuable space in mine?

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    I wasn't born with a gun.
    But you were, Blanch - you were!

    In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Kulindahr, whenever you quote me, followed by "So, you're saying..." it would be much appreciated, and much more accurate, if you began "So, I'm going to pretend you're saying..." and then just took it from there. Sililarly, "So, you are..." ---> "So, I'm going to pretend you are..."

    It's kind of a "tell" I think they would say, in poker, much like another poster who'd begin by "noting" someone's "opinion" as a way of introducing an argument that was rather thin.
    Last edited by bankside; February 11th, 2013 at 08:26 AM.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by itsmejeff View Post
    ." What actually is happening is that stupid people are failing to examine the root causes of crime. They blame firearms because it is easy. .
    There's a very good reason for that. In order to seriously examine - and deal with - the root causes of crime, it would be necessary to make a great many non-pc decisions and take a few actions that are definitely not politically correct.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Who is the "we" in "We don't want them."? I hope you are not purporting to speak for a "the people". Few are saying they want to take all guns away. We Americans, by a large majority, have always wanted to retain the right to bear arms.
    Clearly, I was talking about my own country. Now tell me what's strange in this sentence:

    "We Americans, by a large majority, have always wanted to retain marriage as between a man and a woman of the same race".
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    More nonsense. Please provide proof that guns are capable of doing anything - unless a violent human being is holding them.
    I am not going to waste my time providing more of the same proof you've been ignoring ever since gun violence became a hot topic here months ago. If you are not aware of the psychological impact that the free availability of a gun has, then clearly we see the world too differently for communication to yield any results.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    If "your" country is such a utopian paradise, why are you here wasting valuable space in mine?
    Because your country can do with more of me and less of you. Also, because gun violence happens to not be the ONLY aspect of any relevance when choosing a place to live.

    Also, every time some douchenozzle is given an example with somebody's home country and responds with "then gtfo and go back there", I report them. It's xenophobic and an attempt at intimidation. "I deserve to be here, you don't."
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

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