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  1. #101
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    No, what I believe is that they have the rights that they have forged for themselves, and they are just as "right" and "inalienable" and "intrinsic" as the structure that is built to defend them. For 20 000 years of human civilization, most people did not have those rights. That tells us something important. Every right we think we have, only exist as long as the power to enforce it exists. Which means that those rights are a subject to change if the structure changes. Anything else is empty philosophy.
    That position merely renames privilege with a noble-sounding word, turning "rights" into a myth promulgated by those with power to pacify the masses. It makes cannibalism equal to compassion, murder equal to mercy, despotism equal to democracy. It is, in short, the philosophy that there are no morals, there is only the convenience of those with force at their disposal.

    Government is force, nothing more nor less. The only difference between governments is twofold: in what they do with their privilege of force, and in whether they have a monopoly. Where they have a monopoly, the condition is tyranny, however it may be prettified and hidden.

    Humans have always had their rights, but for most of history they believed the same lie you do: that what counts is power, not humanity; force, and not dignity.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  2. #102
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    The semantics is when you take a statement of fact and make it a personal attack.

    And the chance of you getting shot on the street there is little different from that in the US, as long as you're not involved in crime.
    Your "facts" are offensive, and not really "facts" at all. A fact is that Obama won the election in November. A fact is that a number of kids got murdered at Sandy Hook. That not glorifying guns and choosing to not make them freely available to any lunatic out there makes you a loser who has chosen to be "property", is not a "fact". It's your personal opinion, and warped ideology. Don't dare call it "fact".

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    That's your personal issue. If your government would rather let you fall prey to a criminal, without the means to make sure the criminal loses, then they are in cooperation with the criminals to make you a victim.
    Criminals in my country don't have guns because guns aren't freely available in my country, so there isn't that many of them to go around. Sorry if that pisses on your "facts".
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  3. #103
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    If airbags killed more people on orders of magnitude than it saved or helped in car accidents I'd say let's either redesign or get rid of them.
    So you're a utilitarian of the variety which believes that people as statistics are to be protected above people as individuals -- that the herd is more important than the individual.

    Rights do not depend on whether some find them not practical.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  4. #104
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    So you're a utilitarian of the variety which believes that people as statistics are to be protected above people as individuals -- that the herd is more important than the individual.

    Rights do not depend on whether some find them not practical.
    When the rights of the individual endanger the community of individuals they have to be tempered.

    Which is why the 2nd Amendment does not entitle you to a nuclear weapon.

  5. #105
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Your "facts" are offensive, and not really "facts" at all. A fact is that Obama won the election in November. A fact is that a number of kids got murdered at Sandy Hook. That not glorifying guns and choosing to not make them freely available to any lunatic out there makes you a loser who has chosen to be "property", is not a "fact". It's your personal opinion, and warped ideology. Don't dare call it "fact".



    Criminals in my country don't have guns because guns aren't freely available in my country, so there isn't that many of them to go around. Sorry if that pisses on your "facts".
    If a government tells its people that they can't have firearms, they're making them prey for criminals -- that's a fact. It may not be palatable, but it's still a fact. Every person killed or raped by a criminal because they couldn't get to a firearm for their defense was victimized as much by their government as by the perpetrator, because the government established the situation wherein the criminal could exercise his will.

    It's irrelevant whether the criminals have guns -- what's relevant is that the government denying them to the innocent is conspiring to aid the criminal.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  6. #106
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    When the rights of the individual endanger the community of individuals they have to be tempered.

    Which is why the 2nd Amendment does not entitle you to a nuclear weapon.
    No, the Second Amendment doesn't entitle you to a nuclear weapon, because it doesn't talk about them at all -- it talks about keeping and bearing arms under the concept of the militia.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  7. #107
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    That position merely renames privilege with a noble-sounding word, turning "rights" into a myth promulgated by those with power to pacify the masses. It makes cannibalism equal to compassion, murder equal to mercy, despotism equal to democracy. It is, in short, the philosophy that there are no morals, there is only the convenience of those with force at their disposal.

    Government is force, nothing more nor less. The only difference between governments is twofold: in what they do with their privilege of force, and in whether they have a monopoly. Where they have a monopoly, the condition is tyranny, however it may be prettified and hidden.

    Humans have always had their rights, but for most of history they believed the same lie you do: that what counts is power, not humanity; force, and not dignity.
    Ideology is not fact. Deal with it. Just because you believe in rights being intrinsic, doesn't make it so. And, frankly, it's irrelevant to reality either way.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  8. #108
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    No, the Second Amendment doesn't entitle you to a nuclear weapon, because it doesn't talk about them at all -- it talks about keeping and bearing arms under the concept of the militia.
    It didn't talk about them at all because they didn't exist yet in 1776.

    But the concept of the right to individual arms to ensure government could never become tyrannical would naturally need to expand as the machinery of war advanced so that citizens always had commensurate power to stop a government from oppressing them.

    So if we accept the 2nd Amendment as rigidly as you say we must as a universal, unquestionable natural human right, I want my nuke. It's the only want to ensure the government can't oppress me, I can't take on the army with a handgun.

  9. #109
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by andysayshi View Post
    Relax everybody.

    Steven Seagal is training a civilian posse in Arizona to keep schools safe.






    Seriously.


    http://www.smh.com.au/world/sheriff-...211-2e78s.html
    Laughable.
    Those teachers are dead before they can go and get a gun.


    NEVER LISTEN TO A ONE SIDED STORY AND JUDGE.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    If a government tells its people that they can't have firearms, they're making them prey for criminals -- that's a fact. It may not be palatable, but it's still a fact. Every person killed or raped by a criminal because they couldn't get to a firearm for their defense was victimized as much by their government as by the perpetrator, because the government established the situation wherein the criminal could exercise his will.

    It's irrelevant whether the criminals have guns -- what's relevant is that the government denying them to the innocent is conspiring to aid the criminal.
    Government is part of the people. If the people wanted guns, they would have made the government change the laws so we could have them. We don't want them. They are gross and breed violence, and all advanced cultures have realized that. Unfortunately, your half of the US is not an advanced culture.

    And your entire stance is violently hypocritical, in case you aren't aware of it.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  11. #111
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    If a government tells its people that they can't have firearms, they're making them prey for criminals -- that's a fact.
    Then explain why we are more prey to criminals-- and often ones who have guns-- than people in more regulated first world societies.

  12. #112

    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Government is part of the people. If the people wanted guns, they would have made the government change the laws so we could have them. We don't want them. They are gross and breed violence, and all advanced cultures have realized that. Unfortunately, your half of the US is not an advanced culture.

    And your entire stance is violently hypocritical, in case you aren't aware of it.
    Who is the "we" in "We don't want them."? I hope you are not purporting to speak for a "the people". Few are saying they want to take all guns away. We Americans, by a large majority, have always wanted to retain the right to bear arms.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    More people have died by guns in the U.S. than in all the wars we have fought.
    http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...e-killed-guns/

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post

    You're actually arguing HenryReardon's position, that people should be required to face all the dangers of life with no means to deal with them unless you're rich.
    Kindly provide proof of that ridiculous statement.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by lambdaboy View Post
    More people have died by guns in the U.S. than in all the wars we have fought.
    url]
    So what? Was there a point to that bit of nonsense?

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    . They are gross and breed violence, and all advanced cultures have realized that. t.
    More nonsense. Please provide proof that guns are capable of doing anything - unless a violent human being is holding them.

  17. #117

    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Thanks for the blog article... doesn't do much in comparing or contrasting at all. And America's crime rate isn't that low. And the insult that was deleted in your post.
    There is a study linked in the article. http://www.cepr.org/meets/wkcn/9/979...nnano_etal.pdf
    But it's still very high in contrast to European countries that have lower rates of crime. Liberals hate facts? Everyone can look at this thread and point to the fact that conservatives are the one that hates facts. By the way, Los Angeles has seen its crime rate drop to the lowest point in decades. California has some of the strictest gun control laws in the country. So what does that do to that argument? It absolutely destroys it.
    No, individual with child-like abilities in logic, it does not. Crime rates are generally lower prior to changes in firearms laws. New York and California have seen decreases in crime prior to weapons laws went into effect. There has been a consistent decline in crime since the 1990s. Not because of less guns either. The majority of people are committing less crimes (theories abound, but the reasons are unknown).

    Other places have seen no effect from firearms laws. The District of Columbia and Chicago are examples there. Why? Because the relationship between crime and firearms laws is tenuous at best. Firearms are durable. They last a long time. Law does little to change that. Weapons will always be available. People who want them will be able to get them. People looking to engage in criminal activity just ignore law. People working in the market for illegal substances need firearms as they have no court protection for contracts.

    As an aside, I have a magic stick that prevents tornadoes. There has never been a tornado near me. I will sell it to you--guy who has never taken a course in statistics and clearly is lacking in an ability to understand causation--for US$1 million.
    It's nice to see someone post so many misconceptions about another culture... I guess right wingers do that a lot... misinterpreting and mischaracterizing other cultures.
    Do a bit of reading. Look at peer reviewed journals about Japanese culture and reporting of rape and sexual assault specifically. enough has been written about it. Suicide is also seen as responsible in Japan. See "inseki-jisatsu." different culture. Different views.'

    The problem here is that you do not understand math. It is not unexpected, but it prevents any actual examination of facts.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Government is part of the people. If the people wanted guns, they would have made the government change the laws so we could have them. We don't want them. They are gross and breed violence, and all advanced cultures have realized that. Unfortunately, your half of the US is not an advanced culture.
    Not quite.

    What firearms are is effective. They do not cause anything. Fatality rates are higher with firearms than other weapons. Again, most murders are unplanned. Using a firearm is somewhat easier than using other weapons, so people who are shot are more likely to die. But violence is inherent in the species. And other species as well. Primates kill. A lot. Infanticide, murder, and war-like acts of aggression to take over territory are seen in chimpanzees.

    What actually is happening is that stupid people are failing to examine the root causes of crime. They blame firearms because it is easy. Liberals are just as bad at math and science as conservatives. That is a very American quality.
    Last edited by itsmejeff; February 11th, 2013 at 06:44 AM.

  18. #118
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post

    Criminals in my country don't have guns because guns aren't freely available in my country, so there isn't that many of them to go around. ".
    If "your" country is such a utopian paradise, why are you here wasting valuable space in mine?

  19. #119
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    I wasn't born with a gun.
    But you were, Blanch - you were!

  20. #120
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Kulindahr, whenever you quote me, followed by "So, you're saying..." it would be much appreciated, and much more accurate, if you began "So, I'm going to pretend you're saying..." and then just took it from there. Sililarly, "So, you are..." ---> "So, I'm going to pretend you are..."

    It's kind of a "tell" I think they would say, in poker, much like another poster who'd begin by "noting" someone's "opinion" as a way of introducing an argument that was rather thin.
    Last edited by bankside; February 11th, 2013 at 08:26 AM.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by itsmejeff View Post
    ." What actually is happening is that stupid people are failing to examine the root causes of crime. They blame firearms because it is easy. .
    There's a very good reason for that. In order to seriously examine - and deal with - the root causes of crime, it would be necessary to make a great many non-pc decisions and take a few actions that are definitely not politically correct.

  22. #122
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Who is the "we" in "We don't want them."? I hope you are not purporting to speak for a "the people". Few are saying they want to take all guns away. We Americans, by a large majority, have always wanted to retain the right to bear arms.
    Clearly, I was talking about my own country. Now tell me what's strange in this sentence:

    "We Americans, by a large majority, have always wanted to retain marriage as between a man and a woman of the same race".
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  23. #123
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    More nonsense. Please provide proof that guns are capable of doing anything - unless a violent human being is holding them.
    I am not going to waste my time providing more of the same proof you've been ignoring ever since gun violence became a hot topic here months ago. If you are not aware of the psychological impact that the free availability of a gun has, then clearly we see the world too differently for communication to yield any results.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  24. #124
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    If "your" country is such a utopian paradise, why are you here wasting valuable space in mine?
    Because your country can do with more of me and less of you. Also, because gun violence happens to not be the ONLY aspect of any relevance when choosing a place to live.

    Also, every time some douchenozzle is given an example with somebody's home country and responds with "then gtfo and go back there", I report them. It's xenophobic and an attempt at intimidation. "I deserve to be here, you don't."
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  25. #125
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Frankly, I don't know why you even bothered posting. You repeated old and debunked arguments, and added nothing new to the discussion. That's time neither you, nor those of us who read your post will ever get back...

    Quote Originally Posted by itsmejeff View Post
    There is a study linked in the article. http://www.cepr.org/meets/wkcn/9/979...nnano_etal.pdf

    No, individual with child-like abilities in logic, it does not. Crime rates are generally lower prior to changes in firearms laws. New York and California have seen decreases in crime prior to weapons laws went into effect. There has been a consistent decline in crime since the 1990s. Not because of less guns either. The majority of people are committing less crimes (theories abound, but the reasons are unknown).

    Other places have seen no effect from firearms laws. The District of Columbia and Chicago are examples there. Why? Because the relationship between crime and firearms laws is tenuous at best. Firearms are durable. They last a long time. Law does little to change that. Weapons will always be available. People who want them will be able to get them. People looking to engage in criminal activity just ignore law. People working in the market for illegal substances need firearms as they have no court protection for contracts.

    As an aside, I have a magic stick that prevents tornadoes. There has never been a tornado near me. I will sell it to you--guy who has never taken a course in statistics and clearly is lacking in an ability to understand causation--for US$1 million.

    Do a bit of reading. Look at peer reviewed journals about Japanese culture and reporting of rape and sexual assault specifically. enough has been written about it. Suicide is also seen as responsible in Japan. See "inseki-jisatsu." different culture. Different views.'

    The problem here is that you do not understand math. It is not unexpected, but it prevents any actual examination of facts.

    Not quite.

    What firearms are is effective. They do not cause anything. Fatality rates are higher with firearms than other weapons. Again, most murders are unplanned. Using a firearm is somewhat easier than using other weapons, so people who are shot are more likely to die. But violence is inherent in the species. And other species as well. Primates kill. A lot. Infanticide, murder, and war-like acts of aggression to take over territory are seen in chimpanzees.

    What actually is happening is that stupid people are failing to examine the root causes of crime. They blame firearms because it is easy. Liberals are just as bad at math and science as conservatives. That is a very American quality.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  26. #126
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    There's a very good reason for that. In order to seriously examine - and deal with - the root causes of crime, it would be necessary to make a great many non-pc decisions and take a few actions that are definitely not politically correct.
    Please, make your racism and xenophobia plain, don't hide behind ambiguity. We all know what you mean, be a man and say it directly.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  27. #127

    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Debunked? Keep repeating that nonsense to yourself. It cool. You keep the emotion. I will stick with science and reason. You would not like them. they are determined by witchcraft like evidence and testing.

    What is apparent here is that you hate math because you do not understand it. You are too simple to understand the complexities of human behavior as well. Plus you are tremendously anti-human in your opinions (you deny human ingenuity and tendencies toward aggressive behavior). Whatever. That is fine. The world is built for the ignorant now. Technology allows the dumb to survive quite well.

    That does not change facts. European (violent) crime is increasing while American (violent) crime is decreasing (small thefts are up because of a greater number of targets; for example, many people have valuable smart phones). Murders are down everywhere though (partly due to improvements in medicine; partly because of various other reasons). That is just the nature of civilized society. Crime rates dropped in the vast majority of societies before gun laws changed. Even murder, which the media presents as being out of control, is down. Your odds are being murdered are tiny. Odds of being killed by a stranger in some public mass killing (or even a regular killing by a stranger) are really low (age, location, sex, and other factors play into the numbers). People fear the wrong things. Partly because they--like you--are so bad at math, but also because the media does a great job of sensationalizing stories.

    If the nonsense you claim is "truth" was true, then the city of Chicago--the dying dump of a city that you call home (according to listed location)--would not be one the murderingest of all US cities. It is worse because Chicago is not culturally southern. You cannot blame southern history and cultural influence as the fault of Chicago violence.

    There is a saying about arguing and the internet and retards, so I do not see the point of engaging any further with one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Please, make your racism and xenophobia plain, don't hide behind ambiguity. We all know what you mean, be a man and say it directly.
    What "racism" and xenophobia. Poor young males are the most likely to be killed or kill. Violence in general is a male thing (causes are likely biological and cultural). Higher rates of abortions in the US are believed to have reduced crime. Correcting pregnancy, in cases where the child would be raised in poverty with few opportunities, is believed to result in a reduction of crime in the future. It is not a "race" thing. The difference is really that people who are "race"-ed are more likely to be poor. "Black" and "hispanic" (which is not even a "race") persons are more likely to live in poverty. Both "groups" see higher TFRs as well (so much poor children, many of whom become poor young males that commit crimes.)

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by itsmejeff View Post
    Even murder, which the media presents as being out of control, is down. Your odds are being murdered are tiny. Odds of being killed by a stranger in some public mass killing (or even a regular killing by a stranger) are really low (age, location, sex, and other factors play into the numbers). People fear the wrong things. Partly because they--like you--are so bad at math, but also because the media does a great job of sensationalizing stories.
    Why do we insist on very high standards of commercial airliner maintenance? Look at your chances of dying in one.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    I'd like to ask at this point, how many of those, responsible for shooting sprees in the last decade were criminals? Before the attacks i mean. Its blatantly obvious that addressing the causes of crime is only gonna lower the death toll. Its not going to bring an end to shooting sprees.
    That's an extremely good point. These public sprees are not "criminals who just got out of jail and went on a rampage." They were, more or less, "ordinary law abiding people who had guns, had access to guns, or were able to legally purchase guns" up until the moment they went on their rampage.

    In that sense ranting about crime rates in general is in a sense irrelevant to the specific type of crime that has the gun control issue back in the public eye.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Why do we insist on very high standards of commercial airliner maintenance? Look at your chances of dying in one.
    Yeah. Let's just ban airplanes. After all, it's well known that airplanes kill people.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    I report them. ."
    Report away to your heart's content. It only makes you look more childish.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    And as Corny said... some posts here are full of logical fallacies and this is just another one. Nice slippery slope fallacy. It's the same right wing religious fundamentalists use against gay people.
    If banning airplanes because they kill people is a logical fallacy, then so is banning guns for the same reason.

    Guns (and airplanes, for that matter) don't kill people. They have to be wielded (or piloted) by a human being to make that happen.
    To whine and bleat about guns killing people is as stupid and pointless as stating that pencils make mistakes

  33. #133

    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    I'd like to ask at this point, how many of those, responsible for shooting sprees in the last decade were criminals? Before the attacks i mean. Its blatantly obvious that addressing the causes of crime is only gonna lower the death toll. Its not going to bring an end to shooting sprees.
    None to very few. Mass shootings are not a rational crime. There is no real gain in them. Not exactly a place for the career criminal. they are mostly middle-to-upper class male "whities" with no criminal record (which is the opposite of regular murders, where is mostly people with criminal records). But it is hard to draw any real conclusions due to the rarity of the crimes.

    How exactly does this matter is the real query. The problem with mass killings, many terrorist acts, and other notable violent acts is that they are not predictable. People who are perceived as normal or normal enough end up doing really heinous things. Not like crazy things though. All cases require significant planning and forethought.

    This is why stupid people go the ban certain weapons angle. They believe that they can stop violence by removing tools. As though humans cannot create new tools. The 9/11 gentlemen killed thousands with basic blades and aircraft. humans are smart that way. Tool use is a major factor in the species' success.
    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Why do we insist on very high standards of commercial airliner maintenance? Look at your chances of dying in one.
    What is funny, child, is that airline accidents are another area where emotion trumps statistics. Fatal airline incidents are exceedingly rare. ACRO puts fatalities from 1918-2011 at 129'362 (http://www.baaa-acro.com/Liste%20des...ar%20annee.htm). Yet people still fear flying. Automobiles have a higher likelihood of fatal incidents, but few think twice about getting in a car.

    Firearm homicides were 8583 in 2011. That is a very smell number. Compare it with other causes of death in the US (http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/dvs/dea...0_release.pdf; ignore if you hate math--you probably do as location is in the US). Twice as many people die from suicide with firearms. About four times as many die from all methods of suicide. The overwhelming majority of firearm homicides involve handguns. Rifles and shotguns ("assault" or not) are rarely used in homicides.

  34. #134

    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    a boatload of ignorance all contained in one post
    History tells another story. Crime increased during the 1980s (coke bears a lot of the blame there). It peaked and then decreased. The 1990s were a period of lower crime rates. Was it gun laws that did it? Nope. Gun laws changed after crime was already decreasing. The laws that went into effect were also of questionable benefit.

    I like the appeal to authority as well. You are an expert now, huh?

    Laws are not being effectively enforced because it is too difficult to prevent people from getting things that they want. Not just guns either. If you want it, there is someone willing to supply it. Not just normals either. Police have been involved in illegal weapons sales (http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...icle-1.1189430). How do laws get enforced when the police are willing to violate them?
    This country obviously needs stronger gun control laws, and uniform ones too nationwide.
    Obviously? Based upon what? What laws would have an actual effect on reducing crime and increasing safety? How would those best be established and enforced?

    Of course, you do not know. You base everything on emotion.

    People who benefit from criminal activity will still commit crime. People who want to kill will still do it. That is life. The best solutions are those which would be workable and improve public safety. Stupid people--which are mostly liberals for this issue--fail to understand that. They believe that there is a magic wand that will make them safe and change human behavior.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Thanks for the continued use of a logical fallacy.
    , .
    There is no logical fallacy in a basic truth. Conduct your own scientific test.
    Put a loaded gun on a shelf.
    Watch it carefully 24/7 for as many decades as you wish.
    I promise you that gun will never get up off of that shelf on its own and kill anybody.
    It simply isn't possible for a gun to do that.

    Basic truths always deflate liberal arguments. Always.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post

    If banning airplanes because they kill people is a logical fallacy, then so is banning guns for the same reason.

    Guns (and airplanes, for that matter) don't kill people. They have to be wielded (or piloted) by a human being to make that happen.
    To whine and bleat about guns killing people is as stupid and pointless as stating that pencils make mistakes
    I love how quick conservatives are to compare vehicles to tools designed for killing when they wanna make some idiotic moon-touched argument about "guns don't kill people", conveniently ignoring the "yes, people WITH GUNS kill people" response as if that will make it go away.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by itsmejeff View Post
    None to very few. Mass shootings are not a rational crime.
    This is precisely why talking about overall crime rates has virtually nothing to do with these senseless mass killing sprees.

    They are purely a function of mental health and loose access to firearms.

    That's why all this talk about crime rates going up or down in this region vs. that region have almost no bearing on the U.S. public mass shooting spree issue.

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    Itsmejohn, let me give you an unfriendly piece of advice: I have no idea where you came from, or if this profile is just somebody else's mouthpiece (mods have ways of figuring this out), but with those direct insults and uncovered offensive comments, you will not survive the month in this sub forum. CE&P holds to higher standards than that and personal insults are not tolerated. For your own sake, stick to the opinions and stop throwing in snide remarks and labels of the posters. Whatever jihad you think you're on, every time you address Giancarlo with some name calling angry nerd style, you're losing miles of ground.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    - - - Updated - - -



    Oh yes, now he says "conduct your own scientific test" when his own arguments are completely unscientific. Nobody was talking about putting a loaded gun on a shelf, ...
    You have been stating that guns kill people when demonsrably they do not.
    If you don't believe it, then conduct the experiment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    You have been stating that guns kill people when demonsrably they do not.
    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    You have been stating that guns kill people when demonsrably they do not.
    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    when demonsrably they do not.
    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    WHEN DEMONSTRABLY THEY DO NOT.
    Now I've definitely seen it all. But just a few posts from now he'll explain that what he actually meant was that guns BY THEMSELVES don't kill people, as if that is somehow even remotely relevant...
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  41. #141

    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Thanks for the historical revisionism... have anything else to prove that non-existent point? The Clinton administration pursued aggressive gun control laws and support for gun control laws was actually far higher during the 1990s... even more than now after all these shootings.
    And the laws came after reductions in crime. do you not understand cause and effect? (Why even as at this point?)
    And now we have the red herrings... to prove the non-existent argument. Nobody was talking about police selling weapons. And thanks for bringing up one article about a drug addicted cop. Obviously they need to do more psychological and physical testing on cops... Chris Dorner proves that all too well. And it's nice someone will bring up one article about one guy and try to prove a bigger point.
    not proof of anything. Just pointing out that enforcement requires police action.
    They need to uniform and effective. This would increase public safety and reduce crime, as has been the case in countries with stronger gun control laws.
    Uniform? Why? The US is a union of many different states. Not everyone lives in urban areas (you probably hate people who do not). The realities of life in Alaska as not the same as they are in New York City, child. you may not know what Alaska is, but that is not my problem.
    Oh yes, so lets get rid of all our laws while we are it... and stupid people are liberals? OH yes, more nasty insults from someone trying to build up the same old intellectually lazy arguments. The gun culture has failed. And nobody is suggesting a magic wand solution... the right wing argument though is a total and complete failure
    No, let us not just institute laws to appease the stupid and those who do not understand math and science.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    with those direct insults and uncovered offensive comments, you will not survive the month in this sub forum. CE&P holds to higher standards than that and personal insults are not tolerated.
    I never insult (except when I refer to someone as an "American", which likely the worst insult possible). I merely point out poster's lack of logic. Is that really a bad thing?

    I am a logical person. I do not believe in emotions (psychopaths ftw! it is funny because we are generally more successful). I want things that work and make sense.

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    Your calling everyone "child" or commenting on their reasoning abilities - apart from having the opposite of the intended effect and actually making you sound like a helpless petty kid - are direct insults and will lead to you being banned. It's just a heads up, not an opening for an argument.

    So far you've shown little logic and a lot of pretentious condescension, but that's never a good replacement for a solid argument.
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Guns do kill people. .
    No they demonstrably do not. Even in a language as sloppy as English admittedly is, words do have meaning, and the statement
    that guns kill people is false.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    - are direct insults
    The truth is never insulting. Unless, of course, you're infected with the cancer of political correctness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post

    The truth is never insulting. Unless, of course, you're infected with the cancer of political correctness.
    The truth is nobody's domain, or discussions would not exist. So refrain from sharing "truths" that are just code for "you're an inferior idiot".
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post

    No they demonstrably do not. Even in a language as sloppy as English admittedly is, words do have meaning, and the statement
    that guns kill people is false.
    For fuck's sake, stay relevant. Trolling the topic out of orbit is so pathetically juvenile!
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    [QUOTE=Rolyo85;8700938]The truth is nobody's domain, QUOTE]

    It most certainly is when dealing with absolutes.

  48. #148

    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    The truth is never insulting. Unless, of course, you're infected with the cancer of political correctness.
    Aren't you guilty of political correctness here? Saying guns don't kill people is foolishness and just towing the NRA politically correct line. In the ordinary understanding of the English language, guns kill people.

    Let's try a thought experiment. Suppose I build a wall alongside my property, but do a sloppy job. Five years later, the wall topples over, killing a passing pedestrian. What or who killed the pedestrian, the wall or me? I would be the agent of the pedestrian's death because I was negligent in building the wall. Do you say palemale killed the pedestrian or the wall killed the pedestrian?

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by palemale View Post
    In the ordinary understanding of the English language, guns kill people.

    Let's try a thought experiment. Suppose I build a wall alongside my property, but do a sloppy job. Five years later, the wall topples over, killing a passing pedestrian. What or who killed the pedestrian, the wall or me? I would be the agent of the pedestrian's death because I was negligent in building the wall. Do you say palemale killed the pedestrian or the wall killed the pedestrian?
    To say that guns kill people is an inaccurate statement.

    In your example, palemale killed the pedestrian, not the wall.
    The wall, like guns, is an inaminate object and cannot take premeditated action.

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    No, he's deliberately focusing on pointless semantics to derail the topic. Because that's what trolls do.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

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