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  1. #51
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by csb999 View Post
    How much more likely is it that you will die at 85 with a tube up your nose than as the victim of gun violence or terrorism ?
    I don't understand these arguments.

    If that's your logic why do we bother with high standards of airplane maintenance or car airbags? I mean after all... the chances aren't that high...

  2. #52
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    Also, while mental health is AN issue, it's definitely not "the" real issue. The real issue about gun violence is and will always be the lack of adequate gun restriction, and anyone trying to deflect that is simply detailing the process.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Relax everybody.

    Steven Seagal is training a civilian posse in Arizona to keep schools safe.






    Seriously.


    http://www.smh.com.au/world/sheriff-...211-2e78s.html

  4. #54
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    No one has claimed any one restriction will stop all crime. So we're arguing from two totally different goalposts and no law we could possibly come up with would satisfy the criticisms you're making.

    Yes, we should do something about mental health. Yes, we should do something about too-easy access to firearms. No, neither of them, even together, will stop 100% of all mentally disturbed violence. But that isn't the goal. The goal is to put us more into line with countries that have sensible regulation and sensible mental healthcare and, correspondigly, a less completely out of whack number of schoolchildren and random people shot from belltowers killed for really no reason than because we're a country fear goaded into believing that if we don't keep firearms as readily accessible to everyone as humanly possible, the next step is government crackdown or home invasions left and right or whatever other nonsense gets spewed by the NRA and the people who support them.

    I didn't mean to imply that I assumed that it would stop all crime. I just don't think it would make a statistically significant difference.

    Buzzer, you know I love ya', but I have to go study for immunology!!

  5. #55
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    I kinda wanna have sex with you after this post.
    Well, make love, not war, as they say…

  6. #56

    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    I never said I was a good bookkeeper.
    I can see that is probably true.



    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Including a reference to "because the constitution says so" is an emotional allusion to what is really just a piece of paper with some ideas written on it, and it does not explain or verify anything for the children who watched their classmates get killed. I understand why you chose it. It is a common tactic of those who cannot make a logical assessment of data. Even the kindergarten children nursing their wounds could figure out, however, that "getting tough on crime" as the NRA proposes, will do sweet fuck all to stop someone who is dead at the end of his attack. A more proactive measure, like stopping him from getting guns in the first place, is warranted.
    I didn't make such a reference. You are stating something I clearly did not say. A lie to be exact. That too is a common tactic of the debate challenged. Since you bring the Constitution up, I'll say this. There is a mechanism in place to deal with the Constitution when the need arises. The only reason that will not be addressed is that the American public will not amend the Constitution capriciously. That is why the current President consistently uses illegal means to further his agenda. The Communist Manifesto is a piece of paper with some ideas written on it as well. The ideas are what is of importance. You reference the children again. (See my previous post)


    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    The fact that you'd even see room for a debate on whether Adam Lanza should have had ready access to guns could hardly be more astonishing. And there is an insinuation in your post that if Conneticut has gun laws, and Adam Lanza had a gun, then clearly gun laws are pointless. The NRA and their ilk make a point of showing how weak, trivial gun laws are ineffective. They are hoping that will persuade people that gun laws don't work. But that really isn't the standard of comparison. The standard is very restrictive gun laws with teeth. Those laws actually work. Disarmament works.
    Yet again you infer something that clearly was not there because it serves your point of view. I stated that Connecticut guns laws were broken By Mr. Lanza as is the case in most violent crimes involving the use of a firearm. Disarmament works only for some and then only to a point. Education works better when done effectively. I have owned guns for years. I have not harmed anyone. No one has stolen my guns to harm others. My neighbors know I am armed. It is a deterrent.

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    It's more than a supposition. If he were intent on committing a criminal act by flying a space shuttle into someone, he would have had a much harder time of it given the rarity of space shuttles. Rare things are, by their rarity, much less available to criminals. Making deadly things rare makes them less available to criminals. It is fairly straightforward math.
    I suppose one could use the space shuttle as a weapon but it is unlikely. I do recall a group of middle eastern men used airplanes to do some damage a few years back. There are fewer airplanes in the world than guns. You are assuming a great deal here with your statements. You are assuming that if a criminal cannot get a gun easily then he will not get one at all. There is no information to support that statement. There are statistics that show in areas with very tight gun control laws in effect that crime is not abated. I know there are also statistics that seem the say somehow it does. That being the case I would think it is most probably a wash. There is no math here. It is all speculation. I must also remind everyone that Mr. Lanza was not considered a criminal prior to this incident.


    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    My point is exactly that invasive government action is necessary, and ethical, and long overdue, and that guns should largely not be present in your country. In the past I've said that if the NRA wanted to start another civil war over it, I'd hope there would be enough people of character to oppose them with overwhelming government force. The status quo is not acceptable, it is not civilized, and any high price paid to definitively put your country on a different course is very likely a better bargain than the current idiocy. Nancy Lanza, a supposed law-abiding gun owner, and pathetically held up as a victim, supplied a gun to a murderer because she thought everyone including her idiot son has the right to bear arms. There should have been no weapons in that house for him to have access to, but Nancy in her "Second Amendment Delusion" didn't see it that way, and scores of children are dead as a result.
    Massive government involvement, especially that which is by deadly force, is a cornerstone of communism. At least there are some that aren't afraid of admitting that they are communists. The problem with communist countries is that crime statistics are dubious at best. Crime isn't supposed to happen in these glorious realms. I think it akin to the "ignorance is bliss" mentality. Communism is not the ideology of those that think very much, thus the term, useful idiots, is permanently associated those that support such a complete failure of an idea. I think everyone knows where the idiocy lies. The last few statements aren't worthy of response. Again the children are referenced.

  7. #57

    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    It is actually very difficult to compare nations in regard to crime.

    People tend to use nations like Switzerland as a point of comparison. Switzerland is a strongly homogeneous society with limited immigration (very few "undesirable" immigrants). Most of Europe is like that. Culturally, European states are more nationalistic and movement was not possible historically (it is now, but Europeans still hate each other). There is much less diversity. That goes beyond the Swiss as well. Nations like Finland, Norway, Denmark, and other supposed paradises are all societies that are composed of rich "whities."

    Plus, there are theories that US violence, which most often occurs in the US south, is a result of European culture of "honor." Reputation and honor are considered to be more important in the south.

    But, yeah, that is pretty much how it is. Claiming that other societies are somehow better is generally wrong. It only works if you support nationalism and elitist societies that hate everyone.
    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Lets take a look at other European countries with stronger gun control laws... where the crime rate is lower. Or Asian countries, like that of Japan. The homicide rate in America is shockingly high, and this is because of lax gun laws and gun culture. This is an unavoidable fact. Thanks, palemale for that link.
    Except, [Text: Removed], crime rates (violent crime in particular) are higher in Europe than the are in the US. The US murders more, but even those rates are declining. Japan is a great example, too. Well, as long as you consider a society where rape and sexual assault is almost commonplace (Japan has specific words for various types of assault; "chikan" is public groping).

    The reasons for crime are not simple though, so, again, direct comparisons are very difficult to make.
    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    I think there should be a greater role for family members to contain people who are a danger to themselves or others. Subject to oversight and due process, but not the false presumption that liberty is automatically better for someone with crisis or chronic mental health issues.
    Except, [Text: Removed], that most people who are mentally ill are not a threat to anyone. Those who are a threat are normally a threat to themselves (which should be accepted and allowed in all cases).

    Your desire to strip freedom from people who may want to hurt themselves is sickening. I am planning my suicide now. Moral authoritarians like yourself make that very difficult. I cannot discuss it openly or kill myself in a clinical setting because society says that I have to live.

    One has no right to harm others without their consent, but it is never unacceptable to harm oneself.
    Last edited by opinterph; February 10th, 2013 at 07:14 PM. Reason: removed personal insults; refer to CE&P Posting Guidelines

  8. #58
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by youfiad View Post
    I didn't mean to imply that I assumed that it would stop all crime. I just don't think it would make a statistically significant difference.

    Buzzer, you know I love ya', but I have to go study for immunology!!
    Well statistically speaking these brutal mass killing sprees aren't that common, if you're reducing it to mere numbers. But psychologically and culturally they do have a great impact (for the negative) in our society and since they gain so much news coverage they act almost as a proxy for the issue in general of how many people in this country die needlessly from guns all the time. It's sad that it TAKES a kindergarten class being shot up to get our attention anymore, but the issue is as much about normal everyday people out there as it is about high profile shootings.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post

    . My ONLY conclusion from this is that gun ownership does not equal high gun violence.
    Beyond that, gun control laws will have the effect of taking guns from law abiding people, but will be avoided by criminals. .
    Which is precisely the point. I could have predicted the responses when I made the post this morning - have been out of town from then til now. It's too easy, like shooting fish in a barrel, really. These liberals who hate all things American can't resist posting their favorite talking points.

    The truth of the matter is that while homicides from firearms are a bad thing, they aren't the catastrophe the gun nuts seem to think they are.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by itsmejeff View Post

    People tend to use nations like Switzerland as a point of comparison. Switzerland is a strongly homogeneous society with limited immigration (very few "undesirable" immigrants). Most of Europe is like that.
    Are you totally unaware of the huge problems that Germany, France, the UK and the Netherlands are having with their Muslim immigrants. Remember those riots in France? Immigration is a huge problem in Europe.

    The UK is anything but homogeneous these days.
    Last edited by HenryReardon; February 10th, 2013 at 07:27 PM. Reason: correction

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    Look Henry. If you can find a way that physically prevents anyone from being able to commit a homocide with a gun, it is STILL not going to see you reduce your gun deaths to as low as the rest of the developed world (minus mexico with its unique problems). This is because guns are an easy option for suiciders. Is it not worth getting rid of guns to protect people from harm to themselves as well as other people? Kids in the US are 13 times more likely to die because of access to guns, than their industrialised world counterparts.
    .

    So what? Gun ownership is one of our basic rights and is likely to remain so.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Yep. Now lets blame those Muslims for everything. Including the Kenyan Muslim Atheist Socialist in office right now....
    Deliberately missing the point, as usual.

  12. #62
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    So what? Gun ownership is one of our basic rights and is likely to remain so.
    "Meh, that's how it is. Whatevs."

    You know, that's sorta what slave-owners were saying too. Didn't work well for them.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  13. #63

    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Except insulting people isn't a way to prove some non-existent and false point. Crime rates (and violent crime rates) are lower in most of Europe compared to the US. The post has been reported. Oh and Japan has a much lower crime rate.
    What insult? you are wrong. io9.com/5933173/three-strange-theories-about-why-americas-crime-rate-is-so-low

    Crime in the us is already declining. It has been for a long time. I know that liberals hate facts, but that is the truth. The resins are not even known as to why. It was thought to be economic, but crime rates actually dropped during the recession. The causes are not known.

    Crime rates in Europe are increasing while they decrease in the us. Japan is a special case. It is a much more socially advanced--though rape happy--society. Japanese culture celebrates suicide. It allows losers to have an out with honor. The west considers suicide to be a sign of mental illness. Suicide booths would made everyone much happier and reduce violence.

    Total nonsense. There is no desire "to strip freedom".
    you want to institutionalize people who are not a threat to others. That is stripping freedom. Self harm is always acceptable.

  14. #64
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by itsmejeff View Post
    What insult? you are wrong. io9.com/5933173/three-strange-theories-about-why-americas-crime-rate-is-so-low

    Crime in the us is already declining. It has been for a long time. I know that liberals hate facts, but that is the truth. The resins are not even known as to why. It was thought to be economic, but crime rates actually dropped during the recession. The causes are not known.

    Crime rates in Europe are increasing while they decrease in the us. Japan is a special case. It is a much more socially advanced--though rape happy--society. Japanese culture celebrates suicide. It allows losers to have an out with honor. The west considers suicide to be a sign of mental illness. Suicide booths would made everyone much happier and reduce violence.


    you want to institutionalize people who are not a threat to others. That is stripping freedom. Self harm is always acceptable.
    A statement like "US crime is decreasing while crime in Europe is increasing" is worthless in a situation where what we're talking about are murders and gun deaths, not the entire volume of crime, and also worthless when our violent gun death rate is 3-4x higher than in Europe.

  15. #65

    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    majority of gun deaths are suicides. All people have a right to die. Always. I think an exit bag is the better method (my method of choice), but I can force others to choose my method of death.

    homicides by firearms generally involve people with a criminal record killing other person with a criminal record. normals die too, but most regular people do not have guns around to attempt to kill someone (murders are rarely planned, unlike the ones you see on television).

    Likelihood of the average person being shot is incredibly small. it just does not happen much. And, if you are murdered, it will be someone you know most likely. You will not see it coming.

  16. #66
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    I have no ethical problem with self-directed euthanasia, assisted or not. I also have no ethical problem with preventing self-harm against the will of those who would do that. There is no right to self harm. It's a different concept from euthanasia.

  17. #67
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by palemale View Post
    Our homicide rate is so much higher than any other developed country it is shocking. Much of the reason is our unregulated gun purchase system and the fact that regulation is patch work among the states instead of national. Our gun laws and gun culture, and culture of violence, is a national disgrace.
    Same old lie... it doesn't improve with age.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    And i'm certain that access to guns from the US plays a pivotal role in the ranking of many of your regional neighbours who are higher up that list.
    Very few weapons from the US get to those countries -- they get far more from each others' militaries, which leak guns like a gum machine 'leaks' gumballs.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  19. #69
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Durango, reality is above the US Constitution. Reason is above the US Constitution. The remaining children of Sandy Hook are above the US Constitution. The Second Amendment isn't worth the paper it's printed on.
    The Second Amendment is reality: any human being denied the right to choose his/her means of self-defense has been declared to be livestock.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  20. #70
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    That's precisely the reason we can't have a rational discourse about guns while the NRA dictates the pro-gun side of the debate. They oppose everything on the slippery slope that "well we know what you libs REALLY want is to take them all." So it doesn't matter what's proposed, how sensible it is or how limited it is-- they're against it because they "know" the next step is confiscation.
    Leaders of the anti-gun organizations are on record that their goal is to take away all guns. Since liberals so blithely rely on those organizations for talking points, it is reasonable to assume they have the same goal.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  21. #71
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by youfiad View Post
    WEll the NRA is just filled with a bunch of conservative, red-neck, inbread, lunatics that want their own constitutional rights but deny it to others. They can go suck a fuck for all I care . I happen to be one of those people who believe that aslippery slope argument is a legitimate stance in most cases, (if applied correctly). Politics has always worked on trying to change things slowly, starting with small steps to ultimately reach a big goal.

    Personally, I don't care if every gun were taken out every American's hand. I know that may be unconstituational of me to say, but I think the constitution is a crap document
    So your view of government is that the uniformed folks with guns are righteous, and the rest of us are property.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  22. #72
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Very few weapons from the US get to those countries -- they get far more from each others' militaries, which leak guns like a gum machine 'leaks' gumballs.
    Where do you think those militaries get their firearms? The United States is the world's largest exporter of firearms.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    The Second Amendment is reality: any human being denied the right to choose his/her means of self-defense has been declared to be livestock.
    That's a loose interpretation of it and of course I disagree. You can have laws regulating or limiting access to guns the same as you can have the same regulations for precision guided missiles or NBC weapons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Leaders of the anti-gun organizations are on record that their goal is to take away all guns. Since liberals so blithely rely on those organizations for talking points, it is reasonable to assume they have the same goal.
    Do you have any proof of any of this? I've not seen one piece of legislation proposed or introduced that aims to strip all weapons away from citizens.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by youfiad View Post
    Well the NRA isn't filled with brainiacs. Nevertheless, I don't believe it's going to prevent anything even if it's passed. I guess time will tell. I just feel that these regulations are just dancing around the problem, sweeping dirt under the rug and calling the house clean. If you want any serious change at any time, you have to change people. That's not done by writing on a peice of paper.
    Here is why comparing the US to those 'third world' countries is legitimate: what the US shares with them and not with Europe et al is a culture that believes that violence is a legitimate avenue to decision-making.

    Regarding the NRA, I've been both disgusted and amused at the whole idea of the NICS being used for private sales. The reason is simple: so long as it was to be voluntary, the NRA has fought to open the NICS to private sales, but now that it's proposed being mandatory they oppose it... while on the flip side, anti-gunners have fought opening the NICS to private sellers until their recent flip-flop. What Schumer, et al ought to do is just call the NRA on what they've been proposing, namely letting private sellers use the NICS. Will that get universal coverage? No, but the figures show that better than four-fifths of all private sellers would use the system, a number that would grow with time.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  24. #74
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    The Second Amendment is reality: any human being denied the right to choose his/her means of self-defense has been declared to be livestock.
    Every time you say that, you insult directly me, the culture I come from, and the entire continent that it's a part of. And every time I point that out, you get silent. It's really depressing
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by youfiad View Post
    Sure, but do you think that someone extremely deranged will be incapable of getting their hands on such weapons? The school shooting guy didn't even use his guns. I've heard that often times, those guns aren't even registered to the murderer. I'm not entirely sure if that's accurate, but I have absolutely no reason to believe that this law will make much of an impact. Maybe I'm wrong, but meh.
    Quite so. This is where Congress ought to apply its authority to discipline the militia (i.e. provide discipline for) and require that all firearms not actually being carried or explicitly made available for self- or home defense must be stored securely, since a well-regulated militia doesn't just leave firearms sitting around.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Leaders of the anti-gun organizations are on record that their goal is to take away all guns. Since liberals so blithely rely on those organizations for talking points, it is reasonable to assume they have the same goal.
    What they want is irrelevant. What matters is - as buzzer said - whether the PARTICULAR steps are a good idea or not. When the idea is no longer good, it will not be supported and it will not be implemented.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Total nonsense. There is no desire "to strip freedom". Gun rights aren't part of freedom.
    I'll accept that if you'll concede that speaking one's mind, supporting the candidate of one's choice, buying and selling at an agreed price, getting together to insist the government clean up its act, not having to testify against yourself, and a lot more are also not part of freedom.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    A statement like "US crime is decreasing while crime in Europe is increasing" is worthless in a situation where what we're talking about are murders and gun deaths, not the entire volume of crime, and also worthless when our violent gun death rate is 3-4x higher than in Europe.
    If you don't look at the whole array of crime, you're avoiding the real issue.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    I'll accept that if you'll concede that speaking one's mind, supporting the candidate of one's choice, buying and selling at an agreed price, getting together to insist the government clean up its act, not having to testify against yourself, and a lot more are also not part of freedom.
    And I'm sure we'll concede that when you show us a SINGLE first world country that bemoans its lack of guns and feels its freedom stolen.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    If we find the need to "defend" ourselves with guns we're living in our own prisons of fear.
    No, it just means we read and/or watch the news.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    Where do you think those militaries get their firearms? The United States is the world's largest exporter of firearms.
    Ooh, nice way to switch in midstream, from civilian sources to the military.

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    That's a loose interpretation of it and of course I disagree. You can have laws regulating or limiting access to guns the same as you can have the same regulations for precision guided missiles or NBC weapons.
    The Second Amendment doesn't talk about "precision guided missiles or NBC weapons".

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    Do you have any proof of any of this? I've not seen one piece of legislation proposed or introduced that aims to strip all weapons away from citizens.
    Of course not -- they know they can't go there overnight, which is why they stir up emotions every chance they get in order to try to pass laws which have nothing much to do with the issue they're crying over but a lot to do with making it harder for law-abiding Americans to exercise their right to keep and bear arms.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Every time you say that, you insult directly me, the culture I come from, and the entire continent that it's a part of. And every time I point that out, you get silent. It's really depressing
    Silent? Not at all.

    What's depressing is that you won't face up to being part of a culture that doesn't mind being property.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    What they want is irrelevant. What matters is - as buzzer said - whether the PARTICULAR steps are a good idea or not. When the idea is no longer good, it will not be supported and it will not be implemented.
    Wow -- that's so far from reality Sarah Palin wouldn't even claim to be able to see it from her state.

    Politicians don't care if an idea is good, only if it will jerk at some emotions so they can claim to be "doing something".

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Silent? Not at all.

    What's depressing is that you won't face up to being part of a culture that doesn't mind being property.
    Now you're calling me property? Thank you. It's always nice to know how much people respect you...
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    And yet the generalizations continue. For one not every culture views guns the same way as this one. And if I don't support the free flow of guns doesn't mean I'm against freedom of speech or freedom of choice. That's total baloney. Stop trying to change the subject.
    Not every culture views being gay the same way -- but I don't hear you cheering for the way things are in IRan or Uganda.

    Rights are rights. You can't rip a discussion about a right out of that fabric and claim to be looking at it rationally. If you can dismiss the right to keep and bear arms as a cultural thing, then the Iranians and their ilk can dismiss the right of gays to live equal before the law as a cultural thing.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Which news?

    Probably this one:



    Some cultures like the one I'm from do not view guns as part of freedom and we are very happy with our freedoms (just not our corrupt government with Rajoy taking kickbacks in prior years). Simple as that. And that desire should be respected.
    You're claiming that only FOX reports violent crime? Amazing -- I could swear I heard about the Portland shooting on BBC America.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Oh what a pile of condescending manure. Those cultures are not about being property. That's utterly insulting and downright disgusting characterization.

    Maybe some should wrap their minds around the fact that other cultures don't revolve around guns.
    Any culture that tells people they have to accept that their government doesn't want them to be defended against violent crime is telling people they're property. Their government is saying to them, "We don't consider your lives valuable enough to allow you to fight off the murderer or burglar or rapist -- just let them abuse or kill you."

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Not every culture views being gay the same way -- but I don't hear you cheering for the way things are in IRan or Uganda.

    Rights are rights. You can't rip a discussion about a right out of that fabric and claim to be looking at it rationally. If you can dismiss the right to keep and bear arms as a cultural thing, then the Iranians and their ilk can dismiss the right of gays to live equal before the law as a cultural thing.
    This is a dumb comparison. We don't claim tolerance for all different cultures on everything. We don't agree with discrimination of gay people, so we don't agree with Uganda. We don't agree with gun culture, so we don't agree with the US. Quite simple really.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Now you're calling me property? Thank you. It's always nice to know how much people respect you...
    No, I'm pointing out that your government considers you property. If they thought you were a person, they'd allow you to defend yourself against attackers.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Bullshit comparison. Absolutely weak. And what abuot Iran and Uganda? NOBODY BROUGHT UP IRAN AND UGANDA.

    This pisses me off to no end. Gay rights are not these so called "gun rights". Gay rights are something FAR DIFFERENT. Europe isn't Iran or Uganda. Thanks for the red herring.

    Oh and FYI, my country has TOUGH gun control laws and GAY MARRIAGE. So that comparison is rubbished!

    I wasn't born with a gun. I was born gay however. I can throw a gun in the garbage. I can't throw my sexuality in the garbage.
    You were born with a life. If it's valuable, it's worth defending. The gay rights fight is about defending your life, just the same as the right to keep and bear arms.

    Rights are rights. The moment you start relativizing them, you have none.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Oh puh-leaze. Violent crime? So I need to go get a gun to defend myself? LOL That's not sound logic at all. I don't even care about that Dorner wacko running around. I still am NOT buying a gun.

    I will not fall to fear.
    No, you fall to fantasy. I know several people who would not be alive today if they had not been carrying -- myself almost certainly included.

    So your position boils down to being happy that people get killed by criminals.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    This is a dumb comparison. We don't claim tolerance for all different cultures on everything. We don't agree with discrimination of gay people, so we don't agree with Uganda. We don't agree with gun culture, so we don't agree with the US. Quite simple really.
    So you don't believe that people actually have rights at all, just opinions.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    No, I'm pointing out that your government considers you property. If they thought you were a person, they'd allow you to defend yourself against attackers.
    Nope, that's just semantics. You are calling me property. Because to you that's a decision I've made - to "relinquish" something that is supposedly a part of me. My government doesn't consider me property. I can replace that government whenever I choose. The only difference is that the chance of me getting shot on the street is a 100 times smaller than here in the US.

    And I still take it as a personal insult from you to me.
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    More false rhetoric at that. Guns don't defend against anything except for the big bad man in the dark... it's all perception and it's a society of fear. And no, not property. Not in Europe and not in my home country. Don't insult my country and engage in xenophobia. And that quotation is just partisan rubbish.

    My government (Spain) DOES NOT consider me property. Period.
    And here you've been lying to us that you're an American.

    Guns protect against actual threats -- if you disagree with that, then you're holding the position that BBC, CNN, NBC, CBS, Reuers, and all the rest are engaged in a vast conspiracy of making up stories about violence against innocent people.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    The only one falling to fantasy here isn't me. Thanks for the anecdotal "evidence". I've lived in some rough neighborhoods, never owned a gun and am doing fine. If I owned one likely I would be in a morgue.

    Thanks for the rhetoric... keep it coming. It's definitely partisan and based on total fear.
    It's based on the same thing air bags in cars are: reality.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    So you don't believe that people actually have rights at all, just opinions.
    No, what I believe is that they have the rights that they have forged for themselves, and they are just as "right" and "inalienable" and "intrinsic" as the structure that is built to defend them. For 20 000 years of human civilization, most people did not have those rights. That tells us something important. Every right we think we have, only exist as long as the power to enforce it exists. Which means that those rights are a subject to change if the structure changes. Anything else is empty philosophy.
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Leaders of the anti-gun organizations are on record that their goal is to take away all guns. Since liberals so blithely rely on those organizations for talking points, it is reasonable to assume they have the same goal.
    Kul when the nation en masse is having a discussion after something like Sandy Hook about more gun control, do you really sincerely believe it's all being orchestrated under one monolithic agenda and that everyone agrees on some secret extreme home invasion and confiscation platform? Really?

    I don't see how opposing all gun control attempts on the justification that you believe some PORTION of it wants total confiscation is any better than taking any other extremist position like let's kill all Muslims because of Islamist extremists.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Nope, that's just semantics. You are calling me property. Because to you that's a decision I've made - to "relinquish" something that is supposedly a part of me. My government doesn't consider me property. I can replace that government whenever I choose. The only difference is that the chance of me getting shot on the street is a 100 times smaller than here in the US.
    The semantics is when you take a statement of fact and make it a personal attack.

    And the chance of you getting shot on the street there is little different from that in the US, as long as you're not involved in crime.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    And I still take it as a personal insult from you to me.
    That's your personal issue. If your government would rather let you fall prey to a criminal, without the means to make sure the criminal loses, then they are in cooperation with the criminals to make you a victim.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Um, I was talking about my HOME Country... the ONE I was born. I never said anything about being an American. I do have citizenship here, but I am originally from Spain. So where is the lie?

    Guns don't protect from that. People who usually own them end up in a body bag when they get pistol whipped with their own weapon. And as far as all those networks named... doesn't prove anything. Violence happens... but it doesn't justify the need to own a gun.
    Please provide a source showing that tens of millions of people in the US end up in body bags each year, which is what your claim means.

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Total partisan rhetoric. That's NOT reality. That's fear. And it has nothing to do with air bags. Thanks for the red herring!
    Oh -- assault, rape, school shootings and such aren't reality.

    Air bags are protection against an incredibly unlikely event. Carrying a firearm is the same thing.

    See, illness happens... but it doesn't justify the need to have doctors. Sleep happens... but it doesn't justify the need to have beds. Ice happens... but it doesn't justify the need to have sand for the roads. Tsunamis happen... but it doesn't justify the need to have evacuation routes.

    You're actually arguing HenryReardon's position, that people should be required to face all the dangers of life with no means to deal with them unless you're rich.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Air bags are protection against an incredibly unlikely event. Carrying a firearm is the same thing.
    If airbags killed more people on orders of magnitude than it saved or helped in car accidents I'd say let's either redesign or get rid of them.

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