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  1. #1
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    High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    This report, which came in an e-mail from Newsmax ( I can already hear the lefties howling in dismay at that) cites data from a UN Report.

    I downloaded that report and checked some of the numbers, and so can you, if you're interested.

    Sorry, but there is no url for an e-mail

    Excerpt:

    But when it comes to the firearm homicide rate, the United States doesn’t even make the top 25.

    According to figures collected by the United Nations’ Office on Drugs and Crime through its annual crime survey, 9,146 Americans were victims of a firearm homicide in the most recent year. That translates to a rate of 2.97 firearm homicides per 100,000 population, only the 27th highest rate in the world.

    The highest rate by far can be found in Honduras, 68 homicides per 100,000, followed by El Salvador (40), Jamaica (39), Venezuela (38.9), Guatemala (34), and Colombia (27).

    For America’s neighbors, the rate in Mexico is 9.9 per 100,000, and in Canada, 0.5 per 100,000.

    It is interesting to note that not only does the United States have a relatively low homicide rate compared to its gun ownership rate, but Switzerland, which ranks third in the civilian gun ownership rate, has only the 46th highest homicide rate, and Finland, with the fourth highest ownership rate, is 63rd on the list.

    “The most obnoxious liberal talking points on guns involve the idea that guns, in and of themselves, cause gun violence,” writes CNS News commentator Stephen Gutowski. “In other words, more guns must mean more gun violence.”

    But in light of the ownership and homicide figures, he observes: “More guns do not, in fact, mean more gun violence. Guns can be, and commonly are, used in a responsible manner, especially here in the United States.”

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    Impish and Mercurial Rolyo85's Avatar
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    So the US is great because it doesn't have the gun violence rates of drug cartel countries, even though its still way ahead of any other first world country? Way to shoot yourself in the leg, Reardon
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  3. #3

    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    This report, which came in an e-mail from Newsmax ( I can already hear the lefties howling in dismay at that) cites data from a UN Report.

    I downloaded that report and checked some of the numbers, and so can you, if you're interested.

    Sorry, but there is no url for an e-mail

    Excerpt:

    But when it comes to the firearm homicide rate, the United States doesn’t even make the top 25.

    According to figures collected by the United Nations’ Office on Drugs and Crime through its annual crime survey, 9,146 Americans were victims of a firearm homicide in the most recent year. That translates to a rate of 2.97 firearm homicides per 100,000 population, only the 27th highest rate in the world.

    The highest rate by far can be found in Honduras, 68 homicides per 100,000, followed by El Salvador (40), Jamaica (39), Venezuela (38.9), Guatemala (34), and Colombia (27).

    For America’s neighbors, the rate in Mexico is 9.9 per 100,000, and in Canada, 0.5 per 100,000.

    It is interesting to note that not only does the United States have a relatively low homicide rate compared to its gun ownership rate, but Switzerland, which ranks third in the civilian gun ownership rate, has only the 46th highest homicide rate, and Finland, with the fourth highest ownership rate, is 63rd on the list.

    “The most obnoxious liberal talking points on guns involve the idea that guns, in and of themselves, cause gun violence,” writes CNS News commentator Stephen Gutowski. “In other words, more guns must mean more gun violence.”

    But in light of the ownership and homicide figures, he observes: “More guns do not, in fact, mean more gun violence. Guns can be, and commonly are, used in a responsible manner, especially here in the United States.”
    You find comfort in the fact that our homicide rate by gun violence is better than war torn countries, countries afflicted with narco-terrorism and drug gang violence and/or countries that have dysfunctional governments? That's crazy.

    Our homicide rate is so much higher than any other developed country it is shocking. Much of the reason is our unregulated gun purchase system and the fact that regulation is patch work among the states instead of national. Our gun laws and gun culture, and culture of violence, is a national disgrace.

    By the way, here is the cite for the UN statistics: http://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/data-a.../homicide.html

  4. #4
    GiancarloC
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    I love the statistical cherry picking in that article. No wonder it comes from Newsmax. Lets take a look at other European countries with stronger gun control laws... where the crime rate is lower. Or Asian countries, like that of Japan. The homicide rate in America is shockingly high, and this is because of lax gun laws and gun culture. This is an unavoidable fact. Thanks, palemale for that link.

    And guns can be used in a "responsible manner, especially here in the United States" - Brilliant point. I'm sure Chris Dorner would also agree with that. Guns are used so responsibly aren't they? Yes, we have seen so much of that lately. Lets take even the responsible gun owners who go to gun shows... leaving weapons loaded and accidentally shooting others. And I'm sure Dick Cheney can chime in about it too...
    Last edited by GiancarloC; February 10th, 2013 at 09:33 AM.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    This is such a perfect example of why people "howl in dismay" at Newsmax.

  6. #6

    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    The UN study is disproved by the American experience. While a large percentage of white Americans own guns, crimes using guns by white Americans is comparable to those of other first world countries.


    Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2012/10/02/an...#ixzz2KWLZH1u0
    "Indeed, gun violence in America largely consists of black and Hispanic males shooting other black and Hispanic males. According to a study by the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence, based on data collected by the Center for Disease Control, 1.5 white Americans in 100,000 were shot and killed in 2007 — still higher than the Canadian rate of 0.6, but, given the population densities of the two nations, at least in the same ballpark. On the other hand, the rate for Hispanic Americans was an alarming 5.2 per 100,000 — more than three times the rate among whites Americans. The rate for African Americans was a grotesque 18.1 per 100,000, or roughly 12 times the rate among whites Americans. The rate for African-American males was an obscene 37.59 per 100,000."


    No race is not the cause. My ONLY conclusion from this is that gun ownership does not equal high gun violence.
    Beyond that, gun control laws will have the effect of taking guns from law abiding people, but will be avoided by criminals. Will we keep guns from being brought across the border? Of course not.
    Last edited by Benvolio; February 10th, 2013 at 11:19 AM.

  7. #7
    GiancarloC
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    The UN study is disproved by the American experience. While a large percentage of white Americans own guns, crimes using guns by white Americans is comparable to those of other first world countries.
    By the American experience? lulz.

    Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2012/10/02/an...#ixzz2KWLZH1u0
    "Indeed, gun violence in America largely consists of black and Hispanic males shooting other black and Hispanic males. According to a study by the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence, based on data collected by the Center for Disease Control, 1.5 white Americans in 100,000 were shot and killed in 2007 — still higher than the Canadian rate of 0.6, but, given the population densities of the two nations, at least in the same ballpark. On the other hand, the rate for Hispanic Americans was an alarming 5.2 per 100,000 — more than three times the rate among whites Americans. The rate for African Americans was a grotesque 18.1 per 100,000, or roughly 12 times the rate among whites Americans. The rate for African-American males was an obscene 37.59 per 100,000."
    The Daily Caller again... I think Moonie Times is more credible than that site lol. Daily Caller is still bitching about Obama winning re-election... it's a cry baby website really.

    Beyond that, gun control laws will have the effect of taking guns from law abiding people, but will be avoided by criminals. Will we keep guns from being brought across the border? Of course not.
    Is that why countries with stronger gun control laws generally have lower rates of crime... oh like Japan?
    Last edited by GiancarloC; February 10th, 2013 at 11:29 AM.

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    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Oh goody! The United States outranks HONDURAS! Well, that's an accomplishment!

    The relevant point about Swiss gun ownership is they have elevated rates of both private gun ownership and private gun violence. It's not an achievement to say "Wow! Given they have so many guns in Switzerland, it's a wonder there aren't more shootings! See? Guns are safe!" Nonsense; they have more guns; they have more gun violence.


    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    The UN study is disproved by the American experience. While a large percentage of white Americans own guns, crimes using guns by white Americans is comparable to those of other first world countries.


    Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2012/10/02/an...#ixzz2KWLZH1u0
    "Indeed, gun violence in America largely consists of black and Hispanic males shooting other black and Hispanic males. According to a study by the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence, based on data collected by the Center for Disease Control, 1.5 white Americans in 100,000 were shot and killed in 2007 — still higher than the Canadian rate of 0.6, but, given the population densities of the two nations, at least in the same ballpark. On the other hand, the rate for Hispanic Americans was an alarming 5.2 per 100,000 — more than three times the rate among whites Americans. The rate for African Americans was a grotesque 18.1 per 100,000, or roughly 12 times the rate among whites Americans. The rate for African-American males was an obscene 37.59 per 100,000."


    No race is not the cause. My ONLY conclusion from this is that gun ownership does not equal high gun violence.
    Beyond that, gun control laws will have the effect of taking guns from law abiding people, but will be avoided by criminals. Will we keep guns from being brought across the border? Of course not.
    That is a great pile of statistical crap about Canada and US comparisons; those rates are already adjusted per capita. To say that "given the population densities of the two nations" makes any difference is an attempt to patch up a hole shot through the argument on the assumption the audience doesn't understand statistics. Canada has a much smaller population, but is equally urban. Our population densities are the same in the inhabited parts of the country; unlike the States we just have completely empty vast wilderness areas where the gun ownership rate, like the population, is zero.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urbanization_by_country


    So Canada is comparable to the States, and "population density" is completely beside the point, and our gun violence rate is less than half of yours.

    And it would be lower still if the US had gun manufacturing and export controls with some guts; the only country that has to worry about guns coming across the border is Canada. The damn things are made in the States.
    Last edited by bankside; February 10th, 2013 at 11:40 AM.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  9. #9

    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    I don't think the numbers are to be trusted in actuality. The UN is notorious for creative math.

    Those who do not want to carry or own a weapon are perfectly fine with me. I don't care if they don't want to have that option to protect themselves or their property. I am not going to relinquish my rights to carry a weapon. I don't have to according to the Constitution. No elected official is above the Constitution. None.

    The thing that is surprising to me is it is never pointed out that criminals do not comply routinely with gun laws. If guns are removed from the hands of law abiding citizens it will not affect the removal of guns from the hands of criminals. In fact many studies show that the removal of guns from law abiding citizens actually facilitates criminals in their activities.

    It then is a question as to whom would benefit from laws abridging the rights of law abiding citizens having a weapon. Keeping in mind the criminal will always have access to a weapon. The answer is quite clear. One party is the party of criminals. They even registered prison inmates to vote in the last election. The OWS protests which were lauded by one particular party was rife with criminality. The one particular party is opposed to closed borders and supports foreign nations entering this country without complying with the established law. Hmm. I wonder which political party has the criminal constituency.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Durango95 View Post
    I don't think the numbers are to be trusted in actuality. The UN is notorious for creative math.
    This kind of statement about any actual hard stats we can look at are always the preamble to an argument essentially saying "let's make up whatever we want to think is the reality."

  11. #11
    mitchymo
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    There are 198 countries in the world. To be ranked 27th is not something that bolsters your case HenryReardon, it is damning.
    And i'm certain that access to guns from the US plays a pivotal role in the ranking of many of your regional neighbours who are higher up that list.

  12. #12

    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    This kind of statement about any actual hard stats we can look at are always the preamble to an argument essentially saying "let's make up whatever we want to think is the reality."
    Ok Here's a stat....

    http://finance.yahoo.com/news/the-25....html?page=all

    I will note that of these 25 cities 19 of them are run by Democrats. I will also note that the three mayors that identify themselves as independent, routinely vote with the Democrats on policy. So we know what that really means. It is much akin to Joe Lieberman.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Here is a summary of the U.N. findings by the Washington Post: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...-of-the-world/

    As you can see, countries with the highest gun ownership tend to have the highest rates of death by firearm.

    It's inexplicable! It's as if there were some connection between the two!

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Durango95 View Post
    Ok Here's a stat....

    http://finance.yahoo.com/news/the-25....html?page=all

    I will note that of these 25 cities 19 of them are run by Democrats. I will also note that the three mayors that identify themselves as independent, routinely vote with the Democrats on policy. So we know what that really means. It is much akin to Joe Lieberman.
    So you're making an assertion that the simple fact of Democratic city level politics somehow makes people go shoot each other? And that this is a bigger role than how easily people can get guns?

  15. #15

    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    No, TRex, it does not show that. By your link, Brazil, Venezuela, Columbia, Mexico have lower gun ownership, but higher gun homicides.US has high gun ownership but fewer gun homicides than some countries with lower ownership. Not a good correlation at all.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    No, TRex, it does not show that. By your link, Brazil, Venezuela, Columbia, Mexico have lower gun ownership, but higher gun homicides.US has high gun ownership but fewer gun homicides than some countries with lower ownership. Not a good correlation at all.
    All that shows is that more unstable countries with greater social problems will have higher crime-- not that the presence of guns doesn't influence gun crime rates, especially when other factors are comparable.

    As Palemale said early on, if you have to compare the u.S. to unstable countries with narcoterrorism or extreme poverty problems or civil unrest/guerilla warfre to make our crime rate look good, then the story kinda tells itself.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    This report, which came in an e-mail from Newsmax ( I can already hear the lefties howling in dismay at that) cites data from a UN Report.

    I downloaded that report and checked some of the numbers, and so can you, if you're interested.

    Sorry, but there is no url for an e-mail

    Excerpt:

    But when it comes to the firearm homicide rate, the United States doesn’t even make the top 25.

    According to figures collected by the United Nations’ Office on Drugs and Crime through its annual crime survey, 9,146 Americans were victims of a firearm homicide in the most recent year. That translates to a rate of 2.97 firearm homicides per 100,000 population, only the 27th highest rate in the world.

    The highest rate by far can be found in Honduras, 68 homicides per 100,000, followed by El Salvador (40), Jamaica (39), Venezuela (38.9), Guatemala (34), and Colombia (27).

    For America’s neighbors, the rate in Mexico is 9.9 per 100,000, and in Canada, 0.5 per 100,000.

    It is interesting to note that not only does the United States have a relatively low homicide rate compared to its gun ownership rate, but Switzerland, which ranks third in the civilian gun ownership rate, has only the 46th highest homicide rate, and Finland, with the fourth highest ownership rate, is 63rd on the list.

    “The most obnoxious liberal talking points on guns involve the idea that guns, in and of themselves, cause gun violence,” writes CNS News commentator Stephen Gutowski. “In other words, more guns must mean more gun violence.”

    But in light of the ownership and homicide figures, he observes: “More guns do not, in fact, mean more gun violence. Guns can be, and commonly are, used in a responsible manner, especially here in the United States.”

    So, 27th is not good enough and want to be number 1 in that category? Go for it !!!


    NEVER LISTEN TO A ONE SIDED STORY AND JUDGE.

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    JUB Addict T-Rexx's Avatar
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    No, TRex, it does not show that. By your link, Brazil, Venezuela, Columbia, Mexico have lower gun ownership, but higher gun homicides.US has high gun ownership but fewer gun homicides than some countries with lower ownership. Not a good correlation at all.
    You, sir, have absolutely no understanding of statistics.

    The correlation is quite high. It is not perfect. Those of us who make our living interpreting data know that perfect correlations are almost always the result of faked data.

    The data are good, and the conclusion is inescapable.
    Last edited by T-Rexx; February 10th, 2013 at 12:48 PM.

  19. #19

    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Comparing gun violence in the United States with smaller third world countries full of drug cartels is absurd.

    Newsmax is a right wing media organization. Of course they're going to make ridiculous claims in an attempt to back up their argument.

    newsmax is a major player in GOP politics
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newsmax_Media

    Reardon, if you want to back up your argument with facts, try a real news organization that doesn't have an agenda. Next you'll be quoting something from Glen Beck's website, Storm Front or Breitbart.com.

  20. #20

    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    There are 198 countries in the world. To be ranked 27th is not something that bolsters your case HenryReardon, it is damning.
    And i'm certain that access to guns from the US plays a pivotal role in the ranking of many of your regional neighbours who are higher up that list.
    One must realize that of those 198 countries, most are present day anachronisms. One can drive just a few miles outside of most major cities in Africa or Asia and be hundreds and sometimes thousands of years in the past, socially, technically, politically, psychologically, scientifically, medically and genetically. As to the neighbor comment, Canada is a neighbor and doesn't have a high crime rate. I think to what is being referred in the proclivity for criminality of the citizens in certain countries to the south of the U.S. When it is view through the prism of crimes statistics in the U.S. concerning these same people , it stands to reason that criminality would be higher in those areas.

  21. #21
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    The USA can't compare their gun deaths with the less developed countries.
    They should compare their gun deaths with the countries like western Europe, Canada, Australia and New Zealand.
    Last edited by Telstra; February 10th, 2013 at 12:57 PM.


    NEVER LISTEN TO A ONE SIDED STORY AND JUDGE.

  22. #22
    mitchymo
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    No, TRex, it does not show that. By your link, Brazil, Venezuela, Columbia, Mexico have lower gun ownership, but higher gun homicides.US has high gun ownership but fewer gun homicides than some countries with lower ownership. Not a good correlation at all.
    As xbuzzerx has pointed out. Societies with troubles, have other factors that lead to gun deaths. This link: http://www.businessinsider.com/shoot...n-laws-2012-12 will show ONLY the industrialised nations. Notice how the US, Switzerland and Finland (mentioned in the OP) are no longer ranked low. They are all in the top 5. Only Canada and Mexico seem to buck the trend of gun proliferation = gun deaths stat. But, as is already established, Mexico has a huge problem of drug cartels and corruption. And in BOTH Mexico and Canada's cases, they border the most proliferated gun nation in the 1st world, a fact likely to contribute to their higher gun deaths by virtue of firearms crossing their borders.

  23. #23

    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    So you're making an assertion that the simple fact of Democratic city level politics somehow makes people go shoot each other? And that this is a bigger role than how easily people can get guns?

    I was drawing a corollary to the amount of criminality in a certain area with the fact the area is controlled by the party that routinely fosters criminality.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Durango95 View Post
    I was drawing a corollary to the amount of criminality in a certain area with the fact the area is controlled by the party that routinely fosters criminality.
    And what is the mechanism through which that is achieved? Democrats in city level office put something in the water?

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    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Durango95 View Post
    I don't think the numbers are to be trusted in actuality. The UN is notorious for creative math.

    Those who do not want to carry or own a weapon are perfectly fine with me. I don't care if they don't want to have that option to protect themselves or their property. I am not going to relinquish my rights to carry a weapon. I don't have to according to the Constitution. No elected official is above the Constitution. None.

    The thing that is surprising to me is it is never pointed out that criminals do not comply routinely with gun laws. If guns are removed from the hands of law abiding citizens it will not affect the removal of guns from the hands of criminals. In fact many studies show that the removal of guns from law abiding citizens actually facilitates criminals in their activities.

    It then is a question as to whom would benefit from laws abridging the rights of law abiding citizens having a weapon. Keeping in mind the criminal will always have access to a weapon. The answer is quite clear. One party is the party of criminals. They even registered prison inmates to vote in the last election. The OWS protests which were lauded by one particular party was rife with criminality. The one particular party is opposed to closed borders and supports foreign nations entering this country without complying with the established law. Hmm. I wonder which political party has the criminal constituency.
    Durango, reality is above the US Constitution. Reason is above the US Constitution. The remaining children of Sandy Hook are above the US Constitution. The Second Amendment isn't worth the paper it's printed on.
    Last edited by bankside; February 10th, 2013 at 01:06 PM.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  26. #26

    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    And what is the mechanism through which that is achieved? Democrats in city level office put something in the water?
    Officials of a particular party are elected to office. (Let's dispense with whether or not elections were legitimate.) Those officials make appointments. Usually it is those of the same party but definitely of the same ideology. That would include law enforcement personnel. When said personnel have an mercurial view of laws and subsequent enforcement, which becomes highly selective, crime abounds. It has nothing to do with water consumption.

  27. #27

    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Durango95 View Post
    I was drawing a corollary to the amount of criminality in a certain area with the fact the area is controlled by the party that routinely fosters criminality.
    And gun homicide in the US occurs primarily eithin two demographic groups which overwhelmingly vote Democrat.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Durango95 View Post
    Officials of a particular party are elected to office. (Let's dispense with whether or not elections were legitimate.) Those officials make appointments. Usually it is those of the same party but definitely of the same ideology. That would include law enforcement personnel. When said personnel have an mercurial view of laws and subsequent enforcement, which becomes highly selective, crime abounds. It has nothing to do with water consumption.
    Or by Occlam's razor perhaps bigger cities with bigger populations, more urban poverty and therefore higher crime rates tend to elect Democrats rather than Republicans, a trend we see across the country with big cities irrespective of red state or blue state.

    If it's something more than that you'll have to substantiate it with more than right wing conspiracy theories about how Democrats en masse purportedly intentionally appoint inept people to law enforcement so that crime will go up (for some bizarre motivation.)

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    In other words:

    Urban=more Democrats
    Urban=more crime
    Urban=more ethnic diversity/minorities (mostly African Americans and Hispanics)
    more crime=mostly African Americans and Hispanics
    minorities=Democrats

    It's not like in math class where you can set them any two of them equal to each other. They're correlations, not causations. Each statement stands on its own. Substituting doesn't necessarily yield fact.
    Last edited by mightbe; February 10th, 2013 at 01:39 PM.

  30. #30

    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Durango, reality is above the US Constitution. Reason is above the US Constitution. The remaining children of Sandy Hook are above the US Constitution. The Second Amendment isn't worth the paper it's printed on.
    You are completely wrong on all accounts. Including the "children of Sandy Hook" is an emotional allusion to incite and not explain or verify. I understand why you chose it. It is a common tactic of those who cannot make a logical assessment of data.

    Let's look at the facts. According to the reports to date, Adam Peter Lanza, the shooter in Sandy Hook Elementary School multiple homicide murdered the owner of a Bushmaster XM-15 E2S rifle, which was his birth mother. She was a gun enthusiast and had obtained all weapons legally pursuant to the laws of her state. The shooter then stole the rifle and two handguns, a 10mm Glock and a Sig Sauer P226. Murder and theft are criminal acts in that particular jurisdiction. He then entered the premises of the Sandy Hook Elementary School. He did so without complying with the state law, 8.2-10 Possession of a Weapon on School Grounds -- § 53a-217b. He then proceeded to murder several individuals within those premises. He then fled and was subsequently killed by a self inflicted GSW to the head made with one of the handguns. Murder, homicide, is defined as a crime in this jurisdiction.

    Now was it wise to have guns around this guy? I think not but that is up for debate. Was it legal to have guns around this guy? Yes, according to CT state law existing today, it is.

    Now the supposition is if the mother had not had these guns this incident would not have occurred. That is pure speculation. It cannot be proven by any means currently available to mankind. If this individual was intent on committing criminal acts, there is nothing to suggest that he would not have obtained the weapons elsewhere. That too is pure speculation and not provable by any means currently available to mankind.

    Since removing all guns from ownership of Americans is impossible without very invasive government action, guns will be present in this country. There is no definitive proof of the reduction of criminal activity and the impingement of the rights of Americans to own and operate firearms. There are corollaries in both directions as to violent crime and the saturation of gun ownership, both locally and worldwide.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Durango95 View Post
    You are completely wrong on all accounts. Including the "children of Sandy Hook" is an emotional allusion to incite and not explain or verify. I understand why you chose it. It is a common tactic of those who cannot make a logical assessment of data.

    Let's look at the facts. According to the reports to date, Adam Peter Lanza, the shooter in Sandy Hook Elementary School multiple homicide murdered the owner of a Bushmaster XM-15 E2S rifle, which was his birth mother. She was a gun enthusiast and had obtained all weapons legally pursuant to the laws of her state. The shooter then stole the rifle and two handguns, a 10mm Glock and a Sig Sauer P226. Murder and theft are criminal acts in that particular jurisdiction. He then entered the premises of the Sandy Hook Elementary School. He did so without complying with the state law, 8.2-10 Possession of a Weapon on School Grounds -- § 53a-217b. He then proceeded to murder several individuals within those premises. He then fled and was subsequently killed by a self inflicted GSW to the head made with one of the handguns. Murder, homicide, is defined as a crime in this jurisdiction.

    Now was it wise to have guns around this guy? I think not but that is up for debate. Was it legal to have guns around this guy? Yes, according to CT state law existing today, it is.

    Now the supposition is if the mother had not had these guns this incident would not have occurred. That is pure speculation. It cannot be proven by any means currently available to mankind. If this individual was intent on committing criminal acts, there is nothing to suggest that he would not have obtained the weapons elsewhere. That too is pure speculation and not provable by any means currently available to mankind.

    Since removing all guns from ownership of Americans is impossible without very invasive government action, guns will be present in this country. There is no definitive proof of the reduction of criminal activity and the impingement of the rights of Americans to own and operate firearms. There are corollaries in both directions as to violent crime and the saturation of gun ownership, both locally and worldwide.
    What Bankside was saying is that you cannot work backwords from "too bad, the constitution says so" to rewrite reality to fit an image where the current NRA interpretation of the 2nd Amendment is actually reasonable, logical, or makes sense from a practical point of view in terms of the cost to society in terms of the threat of random and senseless gun slaughter at any time.

    And he's absolutely right. It's not pro gun control people who elicit emotion and no logic. It's people who say guns must remain as unregulated and unrestricted as humanly possible, including not even doing sensible checks on the severely mentally ill from getting weapons, out of some gut belief that without your guns the government or the blacks are going to come and get you.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Experience shows that you cannot compromise with liberals; it just becomes a step toward their goal and not a solution to a problem. They will not be satisfied until all guns are out of private hands. Any compromise on the Constitutional issue will ultimately destroy the right altogether. I have suggested that any compromise be on the condition that it it be in the form of a Constitutional amendment to end the issue.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Experience shows that you cannot compromise with liberals; it just becomes a step toward their goal and not a solution to a problem. They will not be satisfied until all guns are out of private hands. Any compromise on the Constitutional issue will ultimately destroy the right altogether. I have suggested that any compromise be on the condition that it it be in the form of a Constitutional amendment to end the issue.
    Why is every single position a right wing extremists make a reactive kneejerk against a fearmongered slippery slope?

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by Durango95 View Post
    You are completely wrong on all accounts.
    I never said I was a good bookkeeper.


    Quote Originally Posted by Durango95 View Post
    Including the "children of Sandy Hook" is an emotional allusion to incite and not explain or verify. I understand why you chose it. It is a common tactic of those who cannot make a logical assessment of data.
    Including a reference to "because the constitution says so" is an emotional allusion to what is really just a piece of paper with some ideas written on it, and it does not explain or verify anything for the children who watched their classmates get killed. I understand why you chose it. It is a common tactic of those who cannot make a logical assessment of data. Even the kindergarten children nursing their wounds could figure out, however, that "getting tough on crime" as the NRA proposes, will do sweet fuck all to stop someone who is dead at the end of his attack. A more proactive measure, like stopping him from getting guns in the first place, is warranted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Durango95 View Post
    Let's look at the facts. According to the reports to date, Adam Peter Lanza, the shooter in Sandy Hook Elementary School multiple homicide murdered the owner of a Bushmaster XM-15 E2S rifle, which was his birth mother. She was a gun enthusiast and had obtained all weapons legally pursuant to the laws of her state. The shooter then stole the rifle and two handguns, a 10mm Glock and a Sig Sauer P226. Murder and theft are criminal acts in that particular jurisdiction. He then entered the premises of the Sandy Hook Elementary School. He did so without complying with the state law, 8.2-10 Possession of a Weapon on School Grounds -- § 53a-217b. He then proceeded to murder several individuals within those premises. He then fled and was subsequently killed by a self inflicted GSW to the head made with one of the handguns. Murder, homicide, is defined as a crime in this jurisdiction.

    Now was it wise to have guns around this guy? I think not but that is up for debate. Was it legal to have guns around this guy? Yes, according to CT state law existing today, it is.
    The fact that you'd even see room for a debate on whether Adam Lanza should have had ready access to guns could hardly be more astonishing. And there is an insinuation in your post that if Conneticut has gun laws, and Adam Lanza had a gun, then clearly gun laws are pointless. The NRA and their ilk make a point of showing how weak, trivial gun laws are ineffective. They are hoping that will persuade people that gun laws don't work. But that really isn't the standard of comparison. The standard is very restrictive gun laws with teeth. Those laws actually work. Disarmament works.

    Quote Originally Posted by Durango95 View Post
    Now the supposition is if the mother had not had these guns this incident would not have occurred. That is pure speculation. It cannot be proven by any means currently available to mankind. If this individual was intent on committing criminal acts, there is nothing to suggest that he would not have obtained the weapons elsewhere. That too is pure speculation and not provable by any means currently available to mankind.
    It's more than a supposition. If he were intent on committing a criminal act by flying a space shuttle into someone, he would have had a much harder time of it given the rarity of space shuttles. Rare things are, by their rarity, much less available to criminals. Making deadly things rare makes them less available to criminals. It is fairly straightforward math.


    Quote Originally Posted by Durango95 View Post
    Since removing all guns from ownership of Americans is impossible without very invasive government action, guns will be present in this country. There is no definitive proof of the reduction of criminal activity and the impingement of the rights of Americans to own and operate firearms. There are corollaries in both directions as to violent crime and the saturation of gun ownership, both locally and worldwide.
    My point is exactly that invasive government action is necessary, and ethical, and long overdue, and that guns should largely not be present in your country. In the past I've said that if the NRA wanted to start another civil war over it, I'd hope there would be enough people of character to oppose them with overwhelming government force. The status quo is not acceptable, it is not civilized, and any high price paid to definitively put your country on a different course is very likely a better bargain than the current idiocy. Nancy Lanza, a supposed law-abiding gun owner, and pathetically held up as a victim, supplied a gun to a murderer because she thought everyone including her idiot son has the right to bear arms. There should have been no weapons in that house for him to have access to, but Nancy in her "Second Amendment Delusion" didn't see it that way, and scores of children are dead as a result.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    And current legistlation is to take away people's guns?? I find absolutely not legislation that has proposed anything that will make a dent. If anything, they should make media reportings of these horrific acts illegal to impede copy-cate crimes.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by youfiad View Post
    And current legistlation is to take away people's guns?? I find absolutely not legislation that has proposed anything that will make a dent. If anything, they should make media reportings of these horrific acts illegal to impede copy-cate crimes.
    That's precisely the reason we can't have a rational discourse about guns while the NRA dictates the pro-gun side of the debate. They oppose everything on the slippery slope that "well we know what you libs REALLY want is to take them all." So it doesn't matter what's proposed, how sensible it is or how limited it is-- they're against it because they "know" the next step is confiscation.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    WEll the NRA is just filled with a bunch of conservative, red-neck, inbread, lunatics that want their own constitutional rights but deny it to others. They can go suck a fuck for all I care . I happen to be one of those people who believe that aslippery slope argument is a legitimate stance in most cases, (if applied correctly). Politics has always worked on trying to change things slowly, starting with small steps to ultimately reach a big goal.

    Personally, I don't care if every gun were taken out every American's hand. I know that may be unconstituational of me to say, but I think the constitution is a crap document

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by youfiad View Post
    WEll the NRA is just filled with a bunch of conservative, red-neck, inbread, lunatics that want their own constitutional rights but deny it to others. They can go suck a fuck for all I care . I happen to be one of those people who believe that aslippery slope argument is a legitimate stance in most cases, (if applied correctly). Politics has always worked on trying to change things slowly, starting with small steps to ultimately reach a big goal.

    Personally, I don't care if every gun were taken out every American's hand. I know that may be unconstituational of me to say, but I think the constitution is a crap document
    It's never valid to form a hard position based on a slippery slope.

    "No, you can't have a raise even though you've been here 5 years and earned it, because next you'll be expecting me to pay you a million dollars."

    Adults trying to earnestly participate in government should be examining the merit of the particular issue in question, and not digging in to oppose even something reasonable "because of what might come after it." If something unreasonable follows something reasonable, oppose or filibuster that instead.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    "No, you can't have a raise even though you've been here 5 years and earned it, because next you'll be expecting me to pay you a million dollars."
    Lol, that's hardly what I meant as a proper usage. What I was talking about was when we speculate on certain figure heads, such as Kim Jong Un and use what he's currently doing to try to decipher what he will do. Sort of a speculative approach to things. Know what I'm saying? Using slippery slope arguments to pin down potential genocides (genocides have 8 stages -- if I remember correctly), so if you can nail down current legistlation before it gets to murder, you could save thousands or millions of lives by using slippery slope logic.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by youfiad View Post
    Lol, that's hardly what I meant as a proper usage. What I was talking about was when we speculate on certain figure heads, such as Kim Jong Un and use what he's currently doing to try to decipher what he will do. Sort of a speculative approach to things. Know what I'm saying? Using slippery slope arguments to pin down potential genocides (genocides have 8 stages -- if I remember correctly), so if you can nail down current legistlation before it gets to murder, you could save thousands or millions of lives by using slippery slope logic.
    If you have reasonable causes it's not a slippery slope. A slippery slope is by definition a logical fallacy.

    For example, saying that reasonable restrictions or background checks on handguns is going to lead to Obama knocking on your door to take every last gun out of every last law-abiding hand, when the proposal in question isn't remotely capable of doing that.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    I find "reasonable" to be a subjective term.

    Slippery slope is a logical fallacy. It's also a fallacy to think that since there was a gas leak in your house and that house exploded, that the gas caused the house to explode. (I actually read that example in my logic book).

    You have to realize that the proposal itself isn't capable of doing that, but that's not what I've even heard from the NRA. They're saying that this is just a stepping stone. I'm not sayingthat I agree with them, but I can in weird way, see their point? I think?

    But as I've said, I don't take these issues, propositions, legislations, etc serious at all because they haven't even addressed any of the problems, IMHO.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by youfiad View Post
    I find "reasonable" to be a subjective term.

    Slippery slope is a logical fallacy. It's also a fallacy to think that since there was a gas leak in your house and that house exploded, that the gas caused the house to explode. (I actually read that example in my logic book).

    You have to realize that the proposal itself isn't capable of doing that, but that's not what I've even heard from the NRA. They're saying that this is just a stepping stone. I'm not sayingthat I agree with them, but I can in weird way, see their point? I think?

    But as I've said, I don't take these issues, propositions, legislations, etc serious at all because they haven't even addressed any of the problems, IMHO.
    Saying that a check that might stop severely mentally ill people from getting a firearm hasn't proven to do anything isn't much of a statement when we have never had, and have greatly difficulty passing, any such a check because the NRA throws its huge lobby weight into drowning it in fearmongering and confiscation slippery slopes.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Well the NRA isn't filled with brainiacs. Nevertheless, I don't believe it's going to prevent anything even if it's passed. I guess time will tell. I just feel that these regulations are just dancing around the problem, sweeping dirt under the rug and calling the house clean. If you want any serious change at any time, you have to change people. That's not done by writing on a peice of paper.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by youfiad View Post
    Well the NRA isn't filled with brainiacs. Nevertheless, I don't believe it's going to prevent anything even if it's passed. I guess time will tell. I just feel that these regulations are just dancing around the problem, sweeping dirt under the rug and calling the house clean. If you want any serious change at any time, you have to change people. That's not done by writing on a peice of paper.
    I don't understand how you can say that when so many of these spree shootings have been severely mentally disturbed people, who were known to be such, and got access to weapons. The VA Tech shooter bought his while he was on anti-psychotic medications.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    I don't understand how you can say that when so many of these spree shootings have been severely mentally disturbed people, who were known to be such, and got access to weapons. The VA Tech shooter bought his while he was on anti-psychotic medications.
    Sure, but do you think that someone extremely deranged will be incapable of getting their hands on such weapons? The school shooting guy didn't even use his guns. I've heard that often times, those guns aren't even registered to the murderer. I'm not entirely sure if that's accurate, but I have absolutely no reason to believe that this law will make much of an impact. Maybe I'm wrong, but meh.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by youfiad View Post
    Sure, but do you think that someone extremely deranged will be incapable of getting their hands on such weapons? The school shooting guy didn't even use his guns. I've heard that often times, those guns aren't even registered to the murderer. I'm not entirely sure if that's accurate, but I have absolutely no reason to believe that this law will make much of an impact. Maybe I'm wrong, but meh.
    I could flip that right around. Lanza's mother wasn't the most stable person on the planet either and she owned guns because she was a survivalist nut about apocalypse scenarios.

    At any rate I don't see how anything you're saying shows that these laws would "do nothing." If they stop even just 1 spree shooting in 5 or 10 that's not worth even bothering to try? I doubt the parents of the kids shot would agree.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    I could flip that right around. Lanza's mother wasn't the most stable person on the planet either and she owned guns because she was a survivalist nut about apocalypse scenarios.

    At any rate I don't see how anything you're saying shows that these laws would "do nothing." If they stop even just 1 spree shooting in 5 or 10 that's not worth even bothering to try? I doubt the parents of the kids shot would agree.
    Ohh they for sure might, but I still feel like we're not addressing the real problem that is mental health treatments. As someone who has a brother who got expelled from school for threatening to kill everyone, and who has been chased around with an ax by the same guy, I can vouche being banned from purchasing guns by this person would not stop him if he were to do something stupid.

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by youfiad View Post
    Ohh they for sure might, but I still feel like we're not addressing the real problem that is mental health treatments. As someone who has a brother who got expelled from school for threatening to kill everyone, and who has been chased around with an ax by the same guy, I can vouche being banned from purchasing guns by this person would not stop him if he were to do something stupid.
    Well when we talk about these laws yes mental health is a definite part of the equation but saying a crazy person might get a knife or axe or attack someone with a broom handle isn't strictly relevant to the gun shooting spree problem in the U.S. If anything the most recent knife spree in China (where every single victim stabbed survived) is only a case in point about how limiting access to firearms for severely mentally ill people is only a good thing.

  49. #49

    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Paranoia like pride is an exagerrated irrational sense of self importance . It is not that you are stronger or safer but that the authorities have correctly determined that you are no real threat at all . You are not hiding better you are being ignored . Big Brother ? Winston was just another bored whiny meddlesome piker ( considerable unnoted element there . Surprise at the absurdity that the authorities can ever have seen him as any danger , but we will not insult him in this way ) . Oppressed minorities ? By being treated as a threat you are being given the hugest unjustified compliment . You are dangerous , really . And babies and little girls and little old ladies in wheelchairs . Potentially very dangerous . How much more likely is it that you will die at 85 with a tube up your nose than the victim of gun violence or terrorism ?

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    Re: High gun ownership does equal high gun violence -UN Report

    Quote Originally Posted by youfiad View Post
    Ohh they for sure might, but I still feel like we're not addressing the real problem that is mental health treatments. As someone who has a brother who got expelled from school for threatening to kill everyone, and who has been chased around with an ax by the same guy, I can vouche being banned from purchasing guns by this person would not stop him if he were to do something stupid.
    Running away from a man with an axe is a much better option than trying to dodge a bullet. Certainly the real problem is not just mental health (which is a real unaddressed problem) but also the sort of weapons made accessible by law.

    As for mental health, treatment and support should naturally be a part of universal healthcare. But also something affecting liberty: I believe that once a person has chased you around with an axe, you should have some degree of veto over his future liberty… I think there should be a greater role for family members to contain people who are a danger to themselves or others. Subject to oversight and due process, but not the false presumption that liberty is automatically better for someone with crisis or chronic mental health issues.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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