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  1. #51
    On the Prowl Quacktastic's Avatar
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    Re: House of Commons 'gay marriage' vote TODAY

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    The dignity comes from having that choice respected by the state.
    But why is that meaningful?

  2. #52
    Are you man enough? unloadonme's Avatar
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    Re: House of Commons 'gay marriage' vote TODAY

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    Western Europe does not refer to all countries west of the Iron Curtain. It is a geographic extreme including Iceland, Ireland, the UK, the Netherlands, Belgium, France, Spain, Portugal, and the minor states.
    It's not as clear cut as that:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Europe

    Let's just say that there are some major European countries which have still to enact gay marriage legislation, including Germany and Italy.

  3. #53
    Are you man enough? unloadonme's Avatar
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    Re: House of Commons 'gay marriage' vote TODAY

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    There is no way I would count Germany or Italy as socially progressive as the UK, France, or Spain, which constitute a unique region of Europe not including the aforementioned.
    I don't know whether it's possible to measure social progressiveness on some sort of scale or whether it's just based on an individual's perception. However, I'd say that in general the UK and Germany would be ahead of the other countries you mention mainly because of the conservative influence of the Roman Catholic church. In fact, Germany introduced what they call Registered Partnerships in 2001, four years before the equivalent Civil Partnerships were introduced in the UK.

  4. #54
    On the Prowl Quacktastic's Avatar
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    Re: House of Commons 'gay marriage' vote TODAY

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    Boyfriends and husbands are not accorded the same respect.

    Just because you might say so does not mean that society or the law will.
    I have acknowledged that the inclusive marriage is better vs heteronormative marriage, however you aren't addressing my questioning of marriage.

  5. #55
    Are you man enough? unloadonme's Avatar
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    Re: House of Commons 'gay marriage' vote TODAY

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    And poor gay Germans are still struggling for legal equality, nine years after UK countries passed civil partnerships. So did Danish gays, who only got equal marriage last year.
    You misunderstand me. Germany has had gay civil partnerships since 2001 and the UK since 2005. I suggested that, if anything, that was evidence that Germany was more socially progressive than the UK.

    It seems likely that the UK will legislate to move from civil partnerships to gay marriage before Germany does, so that may redress the balance. We've already established that you think that's a bigger deal than I do and hopefully we've agreed to differ on that.

  6. #56
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: House of Commons 'gay marriage' vote TODAY

    Quote Originally Posted by Quacktastic View Post
    But why is that meaningful?
    Marriage is a package of legal protections and obligations for cohabiting couples, which should be optional and at the discretion of the couple to activate or not.

    It is respect for this choice that is desirable. You might think it goes without saying that a couple can exercise that choice as long as the law allows them to marry. Not everywhere: in most of Canada, those legal protections and obligations will be incurred whether the couple wants their relationship recognised or not, which in my mind is only one step above randomly assigning people to be married for their own good. Most of the rights and obligations of marriage are imposed on couples who have been cohabiting long enough.

    In Quebec, individuals remain single until they tell the government otherwise, which is far better in my view. It adds to the value of marriage that way, and also to the value of singleness, and respects the dignity of people's choice in the matter.

    The question you also ask, why should anyone have access to this package of rights and obligations? Well, because it's an obvious set of arrangements. As a default, I want only one person making decisions about me if I am incapacitated. I want only one person to inherit my estate. I want all of those other aspects of married life. I'm not interested in signing contracts for each little quibbling thing. So if I choose to invite friends and family to witness the commitment I make to someone, I'd like all of those things to just automatically follow.

    The issue with the exclusion of gays from marriage again comes back to choice: its ours to make.
    Last edited by bankside; February 27th, 2013 at 04:54 PM.
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  7. #57
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: House of Commons 'gay marriage' vote TODAY

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    To personally choose not to get married? Absolutely.



    Not to worry, it is sold on you.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Hobbes



    Western Europe does not refer to all countries west of the Iron Curtain.

    It is a geographic extreme including Iceland, Ireland, the UK, the Netherlands, Belgium, France, Spain, Portugal, and the minor states.
    My pont was that "solidarity" only implies unity of purpose, it does not help to determine which purpose is worth fighting for. Perhaps we should be united in proposing the abolition of marriage; we could show solidarity in that regard and still meet equality objectives. I think it's a daft idea but solidarnosc forever, brother….
    Two journalists killed during live broadcasts by madman smothering them with pillows. Because remember, guns don't kill people....

  8. #58
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: House of Commons 'gay marriage' vote TODAY

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    You are speaking of common law marriage, which is very limited in comity around the world. Only eleven states in the US allow it.
    Yes and no. The concept of "common law marriage" has been around in Canadian law forever, but it really meant "We're not married yet but it sounds better than our parents nagging us to stop 'living in sin.'" I don't think it went very far at law.

    I think it really evolved post-Charter, with courts applying a whole bunch of new tests and interpreting things through the 80's primarily to ensure that women leaving relationships were not disadvantaged simply because the relationship was not formalised through marriage. Quebec could buck the trend somewhat due to the Code Civil legal tradition there.


    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    You could not list the US federal and state benefits of marriage in one thread.

    Family and medical leave is a major one, especially for couples who have kids.

    There is also social security, death and bereavement, veterans, tax exemptions when a married couple runs a business together, tax free transfer of property, etc.

    The greatest of them all has to be comity, that a marriage is universally recognized, whereas domestic partnerships are often not portable.
    Same in Canada, and I'd think, largely the same in the UK.

    And even with expansive rights for co-habiting couples in Canada, same-sex couples would have had to meet the same test to gain those rights as were needed to gain the rights of marriage itself. Once the law understands that the two of us were not just roommates, but a cohabiting couple entitled to all the related protections, it has also understood that we are qualified to marry.
    Two journalists killed during live broadcasts by madman smothering them with pillows. Because remember, guns don't kill people....

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