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  1. #1
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    Re: House of Commons 'gay marriage' vote TODAY

    Gay marriage has been legal in the UK since 2005 under another name. Pretty much all this bill does is change the name from civil partnership to marriage. That's not a bad thing, but I can hardly say I'm awaiting the (foregone) result of tonight's vote with much excitement.

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    Re: House of Commons 'gay marriage' vote TODAY

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    Call it fickle Ulom, but gay 'marriage' is not legal. Its civil partnerships which are legal, and they are referred to as such, and not marriage. This Bill aims to rectify that pointlessness and inequality.
    Other than the name, what's the difference? This is just gilding the lily.

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    Re: House of Commons 'gay marriage' vote TODAY

    Why don't you two just STFU and get married already??
    Everyone wants to be heard. No one wants to listen.

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    Re: House of Commons 'gay marriage' vote TODAY

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    Don't you know already, liberals and conservatives are not a match made in heaven!
    I hear the sex is hot, though.
    Everyone wants to be heard. No one wants to listen.

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    Re: House of Commons 'gay marriage' vote TODAY

    Calling it "marriage" means equality under the law. My partner and I waited until same sex marriage became legal to tie the knot. We didn't want a "civil union" because it didn't have the same meaning

    I hope the UK government does the right thing. It's been the law here in Canada for years and I can assure them the sun continues to rise in the east and set in the west. We're better for it

    Good luck. I'm looking forward to hearing of a positive vote later today
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    Re: House of Commons 'gay marriage' vote TODAY

    Seriously, guy? It is 2013 and there are STILL people ignorant enough not to be able to compute what the difference between a civil union and marriage is? O.o
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    Re: House of Commons 'gay marriage' vote TODAY

    Well the Bill passed the House of Commons by 400 votes to 175.

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    Re: House of Commons 'gay marriage' vote TODAY

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    The vote is in.

    400 vote in favour of the bill. 175 against. abstentions not revealed as yet.
    Ok, so what's next? I am a little foggy on the procedures there. What's the time frame?
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    Re: House of Commons 'gay marriage' vote TODAY

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Seriously, guy? It is 2013 and there are STILL people ignorant enough not to be able to compute what the difference between a civil union and marriage is? O.o
    I'm sorry, but I hope you're not calling me ignorant. I can see that the difference is the name and I can see why some people feel that changing it is important. It's just that I don't think the name's a big deal. If anyone thinks that's ignorant, frankly they can f**k right off.

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    Re: House of Commons 'gay marriage' vote TODAY

    Quote Originally Posted by unloadonme View Post
    I'm sorry, but I hope you're not calling me ignorant. I can see that the difference is the name and I can see why some people feel that changing it is important. It's just that I don't think the name's a big deal. If anyone thinks that's ignorant, frankly they can f**k right off.
    Calling you ignorant would get me banned ^_^ But your opinion on the matter is glaringly ignorant, yes.

    The difference is not "the name", it is the INSTITUTION. Marriage has a weight to it that is undeniable and unchangeable - at least for the next few generations or so - and nothing short of it is "the same" on most levels, including perception by society. Settle for "civil union" and people will forever see you as different, "less than". Furthermore, NO civil union bill has ever gotten even remotely close to conveying the same benefits that marriage does. Even those that come close on a state level, could just as well not even exist as far as the Fed is concerned. And with the collapse of DOMA, same-sex marriage will be equal to heterosexual marriage.

    Seriously, if you think that the lack of basic information that's easily obtainable all over the internet doesn't make your opinion in this topic "ignorant", I believe some "f**king right off" might really be in order.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    Perhaps Ulom may know more. I'm not clued up about the time frame before the vote is held in the House of Lords.

    I do know that if the HoL veto the bill, it will be voted on again in the Commons. The HoL can veto a bill twice only. A 3rd pass in the Commons goes straight to legislation.

    It is a drawn out process which is why a 2014 date for legislation has been predicted.
    Eek! Well, I heard it's expected to pass, not be vetoed. So if it passes on the first go...
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    Re: House of Commons 'gay marriage' vote TODAY

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    Perhaps Ulom may know more.
    I think the other posters will want to hear from someone less ignorant.

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    Re: House of Commons 'gay marriage' vote TODAY

    A clear majority - excellent. The House of Lords will rubberstamp this one
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  13. #13
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    Re: House of Commons 'gay marriage' vote TODAY

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Calling you ignorant would get me banned ^_^ But your opinion on the matter is glaringly ignorant, yes.

    The difference is not "the name", it is the INSTITUTION. Marriage has a weight to it that is undeniable and unchangeable - at least for the next few generations or so - and nothing short of it is "the same" on most levels, including perception by society. Settle for "civil union" and people will forever see you as different, "less than". Furthermore, NO civil union bill has ever gotten even remotely close to conveying the same benefits that marriage does. Even those that come close on a state level, could just as well not even exist as far as the Fed is concerned. And with the collapse of DOMA, same-sex marriage will be equal to heterosexual marriage.

    Seriously, if you think that the lack of basic information that's easily obtainable all over the internet doesn't make your opinion in this topic "ignorant", I believe some "f**king right off" might really be in order.
    What you and a lot of others (mostly Americans) forget to realise is that people may WANT a civil union or partnership, people may PREFER a civil union or partnership, and people may NEVER under any circumstance want to be married. And it has NOTHING to do with all this 'separate but equal' and 'second-class citizen' and 'scraps from the table' bullshit that I'm always hearing.

    And by the way there are many STRAIGHT couples who wish this too. My point is that there should be a two-tier or even three-tier system for EVERYONE whereby all have a choice and variety of partnerships varying in name and degree and manner - and where all can freely choose what they wish that said union to be called and defined as.

    That doesn't mean I'm against this bill in Parliament - I fully support giving marriage to those gay couples who want it - but I just wish we could get away from the blatant stigmatising and name-calling around here of anyone who dares say they don't want to get married. It's ridiculous.
    Last edited by ChickenGuy; February 5th, 2013 at 02:23 PM. Reason: Typos

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    Are you man enough? unloadonme's Avatar
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    Re: House of Commons 'gay marriage' vote TODAY

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Calling you ignorant would get me banned ^_^ But your opinion on the matter is glaringly ignorant, yes.
    No, just it's just glaringly different.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post

    The difference is not "the name", it is the INSTITUTION. Marriage has a weight to it that is undeniable and unchangeable - at least for the next few generations or so - and nothing short of it is "the same" on most levels, including perception by society. Settle for "civil union" and people will forever see you as different, "less than".
    Just about all of the people I know refer to civil partnerships as marriage already. I don't know what it's like elsewhere, but in the UK I don't think perception is anything like as polarised as you suggest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Furthermore, NO civil union bill has ever gotten even remotely close to conveying the same benefits that marriage does.
    The thread is about the legal position in the UK and you're wrong. Here the existing civil partnership legislation gives those involved almost exactly the same rights as straight marriage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Even those that come close on a state level, could just as well not even exist as far as the Fed is concerned. And with the collapse of DOMA, same-sex marriage will be equal to heterosexual marriage.
    This may be so, but for a thread about the vote in the UK House of Commons it's completely irrelevant. Not everything is about the USA.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Seriously, if you think that the lack of basic information that's easily obtainable all over the internet doesn't make your opinion in this topic "ignorant", I believe some "f**king right off" might really be in order.
    Where's the lack of basic information? Just accept that not everyone interprets things in the same way and comes to the same conclusions as you do. It's remarkably arrogant to label everyone who takes a different view as ignorant.

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    Almost the same? Case in point.


    And if anyone prefers a civil union, they're welcome to it. The overwhelming majority doesn't.
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  16. #16
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    Re: House of Commons 'gay marriage' vote TODAY

    Quote Originally Posted by M4P View Post
    The House of Lords will rubberstamp this one
    I wouldn't say rubber stamp it, that suggests that the bill won't be properly considered. I expect there will be a full debate and opposition from the Lords Spiritual and others, but I predict a majority of Their Lordships will be "content".

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    Re: House of Commons 'gay marriage' vote TODAY

    Congrats to the UK on making it to Second Reading. When is the final vote? Any problems likely in the Lords?

    Quote Originally Posted by unloadonme View Post
    I'm sorry, but I hope you're not calling me ignorant. I can see that the difference is the name and I can see why some people feel that changing it is important. It's just that I don't think the name's a big deal. If anyone thinks that's ignorant, frankly they can f**k right off.
    If the name is not a big deal, then no person would object to extending the name to gay couples recognised at law. If anyone objects on the grounds that "it's just the name that matters", then it disproves the idea that the name is not a big deal. We just can't rest until we get the full package of equality. Even if it weren't a big deal to gay people, it is a big deal to bigots, and they must be deprived of any breath of victory.
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    Re: House of Commons 'gay marriage' vote TODAY

    I am heartened to hear not only of the victory but the size of the margin.Congratulations to Prime Minister Cameron for strongly promoting this bill and despite the opposition of a sizable chunk of his Conservative Party being on the right side of history, joined overwhelmingly by the Liberal Democrats and Labour. I evolved on the issue of marriage equality...three or four years back civil unions would have been fine with me but it was evident that status was not going to mean equal rights under the law, and I back without reservation only full equality under the law recognizing civil marriages of everyone equally among the states and nationally. And even under the best intentions you don't call it marriage oppponents will define and defame us to fit their agenda. So being unequivocal, full marriage equality under the law is the only way we can go on this and make that statement we are equal to everyone e;lse and will accept nothing less than full equality under the law.

    It's a shame though there is progress here we still have so far to go....I salute our British friends for their strong support of equality under the law regarding the institution of marriage. We must continue our fight to promote marriage equality here at home in a positive and determined manner. Thanks to jockboy for his tireless work promoting and advocating marriage equality throughout the US.
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  19. #19

    Re: House of Commons 'gay marriage' vote TODAY

    Last week France, now the UK. This adds another 120mn people to those who live in countries with gay marriage in Europe, to the 90mn we already had. It's going fast now.
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    Re: House of Commons 'gay marriage' vote TODAY

    Thank you Keeland for the clarification. Still, a great day for England and Wales and for equality under the law worldwide.
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    Re: House of Commons 'gay marriage' vote TODAY

    yay England and Wales and France.

    Canada is glad that her two parents finally accepted this great indelible stride toward full equality for homos.

  22. #22
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    Re: House of Commons 'gay marriage' vote TODAY

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    Fine.....BRITAIN is set to legalise gay marriage.
    No, Keeland is right to say England and Wales. There's an ongoing consultation exercise in Scotland, so no legislation yet:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...itics-20680326

    I'm not sure what the position is in Northern Ireland. They're generally last to introduce legislation like this and a majority of Northern Irish MPs opposed the bill in the House of Commons last night. Quite what they (and Scottish MPs) were doing voting on legislation which only affects England and Wales is another question for another day. The West Lothian Question in fact.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-21345322
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18407568
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Lothian_question

  23. #23
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    Re: House of Commons 'gay marriage' vote TODAY

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    Nobody brought into question what Keeland said, rather he brought into question the use of UK, to which i ammended it to Britain, and now you are splitting hairs. Should Scotland gain independence, what coverage will Britain be? That's right, England and Wales.
    Britain is a contraction of Great Britain. That's the geographical name of the island consisting of England, Scotland and Wales. Scottish independence won't make any difference to that, just like North America would remain North America regardless of whether the US and Canada were to remain separate countries or become one. The political name United Kingdom would have to change, however, because there would no longer be a United Kingdom but rather two separate Kingdoms of England and Scotland.

    Now, about that room ...

  24. #24

    Re: House of Commons 'gay marriage' vote TODAY

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    There is so much activity it makes my head spin.

    It is likely that we will see marriage equality by the end of 2013 in England & Wales, Scotland, France, Colombia, Uruguay, and the US states of Illinois, Rhode Island, Hawaii, Delaware, Minnesota, and hopefully in Ireland and the US states of New Jersey and California.

    Each one will have numerous legislative/court battles showing up in the news. It's impossible to keep it all organized. This is the busiest year for marriage equality ever, and may be the busiest one there ever will be. Never did I expect to see such optimism in seven states and seven countries at a single time, before it was good to see two or three, but seven is just crazy.
    Don't forget about New Zealand and other jurisdictions in Mexico and Brazil! I expect the Supreme Court will uphold the lower court ruling and strike down Prop 8, thus allowing same-sex marriage in California to resume again.

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    Re: House of Commons 'gay marriage' vote TODAY

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    As you are aware Ulom. There is no ACTUAL Britain. The understanding that Great Britain refers to the geographical entity of Scotland, England and Wales, and that 'Britain' is just a short version name of that, any break up of Great Britain is itself a contraction, and thus England and Wales without Scotland is perfectly and aptly Britain (-minus Great at the loss of Scotland.
    Sorry Mitchymo, but that's is total codswallop. It makes no sense to say that the UK without Scotland is the same as Great Britain without the Great.

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    And, i think, that we should keep the name UK, lest it may seem like Wales and N.Ireland are deemed unimportant. We would simply be a 3 kingdom unity.
    The term United Kingdom refers to the union of the Kingdoms of England and Scotland. If Scotland becomes independent, that union will cease to exist. Neither Wales (which is a Principality) or Northern Ireland (a Province) is a Kingdom, so there would be no other Kingdoms left for England to be united with.

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
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    Re: House of Commons 'gay marriage' vote TODAY

    UK short for United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland - a country that takes up most of the British Isles.
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    Re: House of Commons 'gay marriage' vote TODAY

    Guys, watch this:


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    Re: House of Commons 'gay marriage' vote TODAY

    Quote Originally Posted by unloadonme View Post
    Guys, watch this:

    That's mostly right except for the bit about Wales being a co-equal and sovereign country within the UK, and he gets the Commonwealth a bit wrong as well. Elizabeth II is the Queen of Canada, in our laws. She seems to travel a fair bit - can't stay away from the UK whenever M&S has a sale. And she runs other countries as somewhat of a hobby or something. But Canada does not have a "British Queen."
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    Re: House of Commons 'gay marriage' vote TODAY

    A celebration of Britain's legal recognition of gay marriage has become a debate over what Great Britain's name constitutes.

    How very CE+P!

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    Re: House of Commons 'gay marriage' vote TODAY

    It really pisses me off that all those committees take so long... Especially on such a clear cut issue. I think half of it is acting important and taking their sweet time for no reason...
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    Re: House of Commons 'gay marriage' vote TODAY

    To add to the political/geographic/national controversy, the USPS (American post office) calls it "Great Britain and Northern Ireland." Rather cumbersome, actually.

    To my thinking, where do Isle of Man, Guernsey, Jersey, Inner and Outer Hebrides (hi CG!!), and any other surrounding islands I can't name, fir in?
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    Re: House of Commons 'gay marriage' vote TODAY

    Quote Originally Posted by frankfrank View Post
    To add to the political/geographic/national controversy, the USPS (American post office) calls it "Great Britain and Northern Ireland." Rather cumbersome, actually.

    To my thinking, where do Isle of Man, Guernsey, Jersey, Inner and Outer Hebrides (hi CG!!), and any other surrounding islands I can't name, fir in?
    There is no controversy; the USPS is simply wrong.
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  33. #33

    Re: House of Commons 'gay marriage' vote TODAY

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchymo View Post
    An 'anti-bill' MP stated, "It is not for government or anyone else to change the definition of marriage", yet seemingly it is ok for religious men and the church to define it in the first place.
    Marriage is what it is, marriage is what it should be called.
    To quote Jack Chick, "haw haw haw."

    Marriage is thoroughly coated in religious bullshit. Limits on parties? Religion. Inability to limit duration? Religion.

    Does no fault divorce without separation exist in the England? Why not?

    The first goal should be to fix this stupid institution to make it compatible with modern society. After that, stupid people can seek to expand it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    The difference is not "the name", it is the INSTITUTION. Marriage has a weight to it that is undeniable and unchangeable - at least for the next few generations or so - and nothing short of it is "the same" on most levels, including perception by society. Settle for "civil union" and people will forever see you as different, "less than". Furthermore, NO civil union bill has ever gotten even remotely close to conveying the same benefits that marriage does. Even those that come close on a state level, could just as well not even exist as far as the Fed is concerned. And with the collapse of DOMA, same-sex marriage will be equal to heterosexual marriage.
    It is far from "undeniable" and "unchangeable." A cursory reading of the history of marriage will show that.

    Marriage has historically been an economic necessity. It allowed for families to obtain or retain wealth and power. As the market has changed, so too has marriage. The economic benefits are negligible. All of society works now. Few are dependent upon a spouse for their economic support.

    You also falsely presume that the legal and social perspective of "heterosexual marriage" is correct. It clearly is not. Need to take a step back there, kiddo.

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    Re: House of Commons 'gay marriage' vote TODAY

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    which by the way is indeed short for "the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland."
    True - it is never styled "Great Britain and Northern Ireland" though; the "United Kingdom" bit is the relevant part. It would be as though the Royal Mail discovered a country called the States of America.
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    Re: House of Commons 'gay marriage' vote TODAY

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    Is that how the USPS styles names of countries? Or are they referring to regions?
    The evidence suggests that USPS thinks there is a country called "Great Britain and Northern Ireland."
    http://pe.usps.com/text/imm/ab_toc.htm
    I would have expected a list of countries to include the United Kingdom. Or, to be formal, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. They did manage to get Netherlands right.
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    Re: House of Commons 'gay marriage' vote TODAY

    Oh! I meant to protest that the Lords is not an undemocratic institution; its powers of review are temporary; the Commons can simply re-vote any bill defeated in the Lords to ensure its passage, and the Queen will grant Royal Assent. And really, Parliament could refer all bills to a vote by the owners of a chip stand in Teesside and this arrangement would get its democratic bona fides from the imprimatur of the elected Commons.

    I'm wary of singling out the Lords as undemocratic when it is doing the job clearly assigned to it by the procedures of a perfectly democratic Parliament. It is the same kind of slur levelled against courts who exercise their powers of judicial review, obligated so to do by the parliament or constitution that granted the power in the first place. "Undemocratic judge-made law! Oh no!"
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    Re: House of Commons 'gay marriage' vote TODAY

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    I did not find a listing for Alaska and Alabama and Arizona and Arkansas and California and Colorado and Connecticut and Delaware and Florida and Georgia and ... Wyoming
    LOL. Yes; the United States of (drumroll please…) Alaska and….

    Okay: here, they're calling it "United Kingdom(Great Britain and Northern Ireland)."
    http://pe.usps.com/text/imm/immctry.htm
    All they need to do is pull the brackets and stick an "of" in it and they're done.

    …but they also list Alberta (Canada). If they were being consistent, it would implyf they think the United Kingdom is a constituent part of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, just as Alberta is a constituent part of Canada, which is even weirder.
    Last edited by bankside; February 23rd, 2013 at 09:32 PM.
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    Re: House of Commons 'gay marriage' vote TODAY

    The point is that the form of the institution or its composition does not matter when everything it does is either mandated by or subject to democratic control. The supremacy of the Commons ensures the democratic nature of the whole institution of Parliament. Any "undemocratic institution" can't make a claim to power in its own name, it's all subject to consent of the Commons. I also don't think anyone in the Lords or the Commons would disagree that the lower chamber has the power to overrule the defeat of a bill by the Lords, regardless of the number of times this has been done. Where a defeat by the Lords has stood, I would take that as evidence that the Commons has been persuaded by the Lords and changed its mind, not that it lacks the capacity to impose its will.

    I concede the point about the Lords Spiritual, in part. Religious opinion has little value to a democratic government. But it is hard to conceive of the UK as a theocracy in anything but name.
    Last edited by bankside; February 23rd, 2013 at 10:03 PM.
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    Re: House of Commons 'gay marriage' vote TODAY

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    It really pisses me off that all those committees take so long... Especially on such a clear cut issue. I think half of it is acting important and taking their sweet time for no reason...
    Why should that piss you off? It's not as if you're British or anything. There's a process to be followed and little doubt about the outcome.

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    Re: House of Commons 'gay marriage' vote TODAY

    Quote Originally Posted by frankfrank View Post
    To my thinking, where do Isle of Man, Guernsey, Jersey, Inner and Outer Hebrides (hi CG!!), and any other surrounding islands I can't name, fit in?
    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    They are self governing and not part of the UK, which by the way is indeed short for "the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland."
    On a point of pedantry, the Inner and Outer Hebrides, whilst obviously not part of the mainland, are not self-governing. They're an integral part of Scotland. In the same way Anglesey is part of Wales and the Isle of Wight part of England.

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    Re: House of Commons 'gay marriage' vote TODAY

    Of course, in our Family, it was known as Great Yorkshire and the rest of the islands.

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    Re: House of Commons 'gay marriage' vote TODAY

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    It is a matter of fact that democratic institutions cannot surrender their legislative power in a democracy.
    We agree! And it is without dispute that a majority in the Commons can legislate unhindered on any subject. Their decision to do so or not when a government bill is defeated in the Lords is entirely a matter (quite properly) of political considerations. There is no question of capacity; there is simply no surrender of any power.

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    If is also not true that, in a democracy, democratic institutions can have a tradition of not exercising supremacy over undemocratic institutions. If that we're true than any dictatorship could be a democracy so long as a democratic legislature submitted to it.

    Therefore, if the Commons shirks its responsibility to Lords, it cannot be democratic.
    Okay let's compare intraparliamentary balance of power with the balance between parliament and the crown.

    First, Royal Prerogative - all those powers still held by the Crown which may be exercised without any Parliamentary consent. It is said that the Queen reigns but does not rule. Is Royal Prerogative the exception? No. Defining the extent of Royal Prerogative is the task of the courts. The powers can be claimed by Parliament at any time, and Royal Prerogative has been trimmed over the years. The remaining powers are exercised almost exclusively on the advice of the government of the day. About the only thing left that the Queen can do without any input or advice is appoint people to the Order of Merit and maybe change a few people's titles within the royal family.

    If Queen Elizabeth were to appear on the balcony of Buckingham Palace and attempt to proclaim a new law of her own invention by the use of prerogative powers, the Government would accept her abdication before the sun set the same day, if the UK did not become a republic outright; she has an unexercised power which is spent.

    In contrast, no one would dispute that any exercise by the Commons of its power to override the Lords is legitimate, now and for the foreseeable future.
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    Re: House of Commons 'gay marriage' vote TODAY

    I was going to mention that the Lords can't veto the bill - they are limited by the Parliament Acts - but others have mentioned this so I won't bother.

    Personally, I still view it as making very little difference to me. The UK civil partnerships was perfectly satisfactory as far as I am concerned, cynical as I am I can't help but feel this bill is a project to detoxify the Tory party (apparently unsuccessfully, considering the backbenches that have come out of the woodwork).

    The unfortunate implications of the difference in law depending on the genders of people was a problem, and I'm glad that's being solved, however in the end it isn't that important. I'm more worried about, I don't know, youth unemployment.

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    Re: House of Commons 'gay marriage' vote TODAY

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    In the US at least we are keenly aware from historical example the impact of separate institutions for different people. Your relationship will never have equal dignity without having the same access to relationship status.
    You do have a point. I guess my disinterest in it based on my opposition to relationships needing some kind of recognition from the state - people may need rights over each other's affairs, but state institutions should not define people's relationships for them. The Government's position on gay marriage does not change my sexual or romantic needs and desires.

    It isn't a bad bill, I just don't like marriage at all I guess.

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    Re: House of Commons 'gay marriage' vote TODAY

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    The idea of solidarity is that you stand with your fellow LGBTs who do want the legal incidents and dignity of marriage, even if that is not something you want yourself.

    I am not married either, and will not for many years at the least.
    Yep, it's for the principle of the matter. Marriage isn't for everyone but for those who really feel it important to have that kind of legal recognition, same sex relationships should be equally recognized under the law as heterosexual ones. Commitment like that should be celebrated, even if it's not something someone believes necessary for their own fulfillment. It's important the law doesn't discriminate based on sexuality.
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    Re: House of Commons 'gay marriage' vote TODAY

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    A lot of Britons are aware that once France passes equal marriage, the UK will be the last major country in Western Europe without it.
    What about Germany, Italy and Greece?

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    Re: House of Commons 'gay marriage' vote TODAY

    I am surprised that a Yorkshireman would acknowledge Germany, Italy, and Greece as "major countries."

    China, Russia, the United States, the UK of course, and that other country...you know...the other one that got a seat on the Security Council with the name we always forget...it's on the tip of my tongue...
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    Re: House of Commons 'gay marriage' vote TODAY

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    I am surprised that a Yorkshireman would acknowledge Germany, Italy, and Greece as "major countries."

    China, Russia, the United States, the UK of course, and that other country...you know...the other one that got a seat on the Security Council with the name we always forget...it's on the tip of my tongue...
    You have a point of course, but JockBoy did refer specifically to major countries in Western Europe. China, Russia and the US are therefore not in point and JockBoy's already covered the F-word. Within Western Europe, I think Germany and Italy would generally be considered major, although I'll concede Greece!

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    Re: House of Commons 'gay marriage' vote TODAY

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    The idea of solidarity is that you stand with your fellow LGBTs who do want the legal incidents and dignity of marriage, even if that is not something you want yourself.
    What dignity is present in marriage which is not present in a cohabitation? The idea that marriage has worth is socially constructed.

    I do agree with the principle to the point that if it exists it should be available to all (that goes for civil unions too). I do agree what there shouldn't be an issue when moving between countries (though I think it always will be, with cultural and political differences). However, it is by no means a betrayal to disinterested in gay marriage for ideological reasons. I have the right to be indifferent.

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    Re: House of Commons 'gay marriage' vote TODAY

    Quote Originally Posted by Quacktastic View Post
    What dignity is present in marriage which is not present in a cohabitation? The idea that marriage has worth is socially constructed.

    I do agree with the principle to the point that if it exists it should be available to all (that goes for civil unions too). I do agree what there shouldn't be an issue when moving between countries (though I think it always will be, with cultural and political differences). However, it is by no means a betrayal to disinterested in gay marriage for ideological reasons. I have the right to be indifferent.
    More than that, if there is such a thing as solidarity, you'd have the right to demand the rest of the gays stand with you in your opposition to marriage.

    I can't say I'm universally sold on solidarity.

    As far as your question about dignity, marriage is just recognition of a relationship already chosen by the couple and for which the couple wants to provide a standard set of legal protections.

    The dignity comes from having that choice respected by the state. For the same reason, the government can't tell someine "You'll be better off," and then just assign them to a marriage. It really is the couple's idea, and the couiple's choice whether to extend the rights or not.
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