The Honorable Ed Koch, dead at age 88 [MERGED]

[Hard-up1]

The storied former mayor of NYC is dead at 88.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_2597207.html

He was a lightning rod for his policies and self-promotion, but he also pulled New York City from the bottom of the financial barrel during VERY difficult economic times.

I wrote to him once during his term and received a personal letter back.

Rest in peace, Mr. Koch.

[PreTTy PeTe]

Thanks for staying in the closet and ignoring the biggest crisis in your city during your time as mayor.

Thank you being the mayor that could but didn't address the aids crisis in your city.

http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/Ko...584/story.html

[Hard-up1]

Pete, from your own link:

Koch was a champion of gay rights, taking on the Roman Catholic Church and scores of political leaders.

A lifelong bachelor, Koch offered a typically blunt response to questions about his own sexuality: “My answer to questions on this subject is simply, ‘F--- off.’ There have to be some private matters left.”

It reads more like he was of a different generation rather than just a coward. It also sounds like he took on a pretty powerful group if he confronted the HRCC in the very Catholic East Coast.

[PreTTy PeTe]

^maybe but when a gay man ignores issues that might help others like him I consider him a coward

if you keep silent then that silence is an injustice or maybe just criminal

[gsdx]

I remember him from People's Court more than as the mayor of NYC. He wasn't a very good judge.

[PreTTy PeTe]

I remember him from People's Court more than as the mayor of NYC. He wasn't a very good judge.

and not a very good man either.

[Hard-up1]

Perhaps in hindsight it is too easy to forget that Harvey Milk was assassinated in 1978, the first openly gay man elected in the U.S., and that was in categorically the most gay-friendly major city in the country.

I'm not capable of assessing how much Mr. Koch ignored the cause in the early years when it was perceived as yet another venereal disease, never a topic that would be an aid to an elected official trying to stay in office to maintain his influence.

"Maybe" seems more than dismissive of the accolades your own link accorded to Mr. Koch. It sounds like that article did not find him as a man shrinking from defending gays.

The matter of insulting a man, by no account a despot or tyrant, on the day of his death, contravenes conventions of respect common in every society.

[Hard-up1]

It is more than obvious that his charms didn't translate into Canada as well. Too bad that simple respect can't be extended across such a simple divide.

Thank goodness we are remembered for the sum of our lives, not the failures carefully selected by our detractors.

I personally would not agree with the late former mayor on a range of issues, including Israel, but I am capable of seeing a larger picture that was his administration.

Mr. Koch's service to his beloved city will rightly be the talk of the town today and for the next several, as is appropriate for a public servant.

[PreTTy PeTe]

^ to compare harvey milk to koch is an insult to a man who was truly amazing

to say that he did what was best for the city is myopic at best and ignorance at worst.

to insult a man who could have and should have been a been a better person because of his stature is not insulting is just re-enforcing what he did to himself and to his people.

the link I provided was just a newswire thing not anything else.

[SLOPPYSECONDS]

Perhaps in hindsight it is too easy to forget that Harvey Milk was assassinated in 1978, the first openly gay man elected in the U.S., and that was in categorically the most gay-friendly major city in the country.

I'm not capable of assessing how much Mr. Koch ignored the cause in the early years when it was perceived as yet another venereal disease, never a topic that would be an aid to an elected official trying to stay in office to maintain his influence.

"Maybe" seems more than dismissive of the accolades your own link accorded to Mr. Koch. It sounds like that article did not find him as a man shrinking from defending gays.

The matter of insulting a man, by no account a despot or tyrant, on the day of his death, contravenes conventions of respect common in every society.

1st world got a got invent soicety a first world ova
ans 1st worlds lands can alway dig up da dead ans invete wen 1st worlds figa wot society is

thankyou

[CowboyBob]

Didn't realize he was that old.

There was rumor he was gay.

RIP Mr Mayor.

[G-Lexington]

I can't find the quote, but I believe he once responded to questions about his sexuality by saying something along the lines of "I resent the question, because it's asked in a way that implies being gay is something you should deny, or should be ashamed of. And I don't think that's the way it should be." Again, that was back in the 1970s.

Lex

[G-Lexington]

Not a rumor. He stayed in the closet as successfully as Liberace.

Lex

[palbert]

Concern yourself with the Northwest Passage or even your mayor. Otherwise shut up and go shovel snow.

Sorry I forgot you're Canadian and therefore beloved by the mods. That dosn't keep you from being an idiot.

With all possible love,

palbert

[nycguydowntown]

He was a good guy---more a gay celibate than gay gay---some guys that old r just are old school about their private life. He loved his city and if you r a New Yorker, you know where he's coming from. RIP.

[nycguydowntown]

He was a good guy---more a gay celibate, married to his career---(I actually know a guy, an attorney, who looks like a young Koch who is also a gay celibate, not someone who would do well in the gay dating world) I mean Koch lived in the Village all his life and there were never any pics of him with a boyfriend or hanging out at happy hour in a gay bar. He loved NYC and did his best. RIP.

[PreTTy PeTe]

wow so much love for him.

but yet again silence is deadly.

[PreTTy PeTe]

Concern yourself with the Northwest Passage or even your mayor. Otherwise shut up and go shovel snow.

Sorry I forgot you're Canadian and therefore beloved by the mods. That dosn't keep you from being an idiot.

With all possible love,

palbert

dear boy calling me an idiot is ok but walking by my dying body is just wrong.
and that's what he did by ignoring the crisis.

[palbert]

wow so much love for him.

but yet again silence is deadly.

Speechless.

[PreTTy PeTe]

should I get into how the homeless were treated when he was mayor?

[palbert]

should I get into how the homeless were treated when he was mayor?

Didn't we send them to Canada?

[nycguydowntown]

As far as I know he supported gay rights back in the 70's when no one was---as far as AIDS crisis in America in the 80's, you won't fine too many elected political hero's --doing all they should have done---fucked up but true, hard to judge.

[palbert]

As far as I know he supported gay rights back in the 70's when no one was---as far as AIDS crisis in America in the 80's, you won't fine too many elected political hero's --doing all they should have done---fucked up but true, hard to judge.

Forgive him. He lives where all is perfect.

And codemning the US is an art-form.

[RazorzEdge88]

Perhaps in hindsight it is too easy to forget that Harvey Milk was assassinated in 1978, the first openly gay man elected in the U.S., and that was in categorically the most gay-friendly major city in the country.

Without making any comment on the merits of your greater point, I'm going to have to fact-check you here.

Harvey Milk WAS assassinated, but NOT because he was gay. Did you see Milk?

Barney Frank's sexuality was almost an open secret when he ran for Congress.

[miaedu]

Interesting read in the NYT with lively comments.

Edward Koch, Former Mayor of New York, Dies at 88

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/02/ny...s.html?hp&_r=0

[RaKroma]

Koch is universally accepted as an effective political leader who literally saved NYC from Detroit's path. Simply, gay "leaders" never liked Koch because they wanted him to be East Coast's Milk, but it was his choice not to be one. He is accused of "self loathing, selling out," etc. In later years, his own liberals hated him because he was "crossing party lines," so the negative smear continued. NYC was in dire situation during his leadership: facing bankruptcy, high crime rates, homelessness, city agencies hanging on the line, public transit was horrible, and on top of that the limousine liberals in charge of the state and city were involved in all sorts of corruption. Decades later, Koch was very open about what he regretted doing to save the city. Very few politicians admit their mistakes. Years after Koch's term, NYC Health Department leadership was pushing for banning gay bath houses which were AIDS meccas, but the gay leadership again were on revolt accusing the city of discrimination and homophobia. They wanted the government to quickly invent some magical cure and hand it out for free so they can continue to party in the village, but reality wasn't so rosy.

[RaKroma]

"Gay activists had long bashed Koch for his silence on his sexuality, with some even charging that his reticence contributed to the AIDS plague.
“We must never forget that this man was an active participant in helping us to die, in murdering us,” playwright Larry Kramer wrote in 2012.
Kramer was irate at Koch, in his function as a movie critic, for offering positive reaction to a documentary about AIDS called, “How to Survive a Plague.”
But Koch unabashedly defended his record on gay rights and his support of the gay community.

In 1984, he became the first mayor to march in the city’s Gay Pride Parade. He also boasted of appointing gay judges and introducing a bill in Congress with former New York Rep. Bella Abzug to outlaw discrimination based on sexual orientation.

One of his first acts as mayor was to ban such discrimination by city agencies." http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...1252984?pgno=1
How people forget quickly that our current liberal Governor Andrew Cuomo (who is now a hero in the gay world for passing gay marriage in NY) was running smear campaigns for his dad against Koch using the slogans "Vote For Cuomo Not The Homo." Koch never forgave them for that; I believe the constant witch-hunt to figure out Koch's private life and sexual orientation did turn him off from greater involvement in the LGBT scene. But for a politician to march as the first mayor in gay pride parades or push for none discrimination laws in the city for gays, is very contradictory to a politician who was "complicit in murdering gays in the AIDS epidemic." Today, it's not a challenge for a politician to attend gay rights causes and accept GLAAD awards when gay rights became socially hip.

[Hard-up1]

I am deeply disappointed to find a memorial thread spammed via merging with the "TWAT" thread. I've asked the mods to either close this or unmix it.

In an era in which the U.S. gay population has struggled to find politicians with the guts to support us openly, we "honor" one who did by excoriating him for not being more of a champion. Further, dictating that he had to be out in a day in which it was virtual political suicide and would have instantly armed his opposition with a certain weapon, even in NYC.

Eat our own much?

[Vannie]

Concern yourself with the Northwest Passage or even your mayor. Otherwise shut up and go shovel snow.

Sorry I forgot you're Canadian and therefore beloved by the mods. That dosn't keep you from being an idiot.

With all possible love,

palbert

Thank you....

[PreTTy PeTe]

I am deeply disappointed to find a memorial thread spammed via merging with the "TWAT" thread. I've asked the mods to either close this or unmix it.

In an era in which the U.S. gay population has struggled to find politicians with the guts to support us openly, we "honor" one who did by excoriating him for not being more of a champion. Further, dictating that he had to be out in a day in which it was virtual political suicide and would have instantly armed his opposition with a certain weapon, even in NYC.

Eat our own much?

you don't like my choice of words.
I don't like his choice of being silent when voices needed to be heard.

Koch’s hubris seems to be his lack of empathy (not as bad as Rudolph Giuliani’s, but close), be it with the black community on the closing of a hospital in Harlem, or his unsympathetic response to the murder of a black man at the hands of white youths in Brooklyn; or his lack of compassion, whether real or perceived, at the time of the AIDS crisis in the '80s."

http://www.advocate.com/politics/pol...ered-questions

[Hard-up1]

But the point is well established that the late mayor was not silent. Out and proud? No. A gay rights advocate in a powerful post? Yes.

He was elected three times to he mayoralty of New York City, so millions of people found him to be doing a good job.

I'm still not clear as to how his policies or out/closeted status impacted our gay brothers in Canada?

[palbert]

But the point is well established that the late mayor was not silent. Out and proud? No. A gay rights advocate in a powerful post? Yes.

He was elected three times to he mayoralty of New York City, so millions of people found him to be doing a good job.

I'm still not clear as to how his policies or out/closeted status impacted our gay brothers in Canada?

Because they're bored and boring. And because they have no government they complain of ours.

[SLOPPYSECONDS]

But the point is well established that the late mayor was not silent. Out and proud? No. A gay rights advocate in a powerful post? Yes.

He was elected three times to he mayoralty of New York City, so millions of people found him to be doing a good job.

I'm still not clear as to how his policies or out/closeted status impacted our gay brothers in Canada?

wot a dude do? beside play mayor of sum land play we is eva awsums cause we write the history books?

gay borthers? intenret 2 special folk spen all time cut anythnag long they look nice snot

wot is 1st world think shit is?

gold on da day or wen fins a there awsum news a crap

or millions a people is alwedy figa wot is ans not cause sumone gonna say
millions a people say so

1st world awsum folk a lands luv play news fit there play

so maybe news media end year give alls PUBLIC awsum one big VERY GURD here gold star but planet dead not a worry

thankyou

[Hard-up1]

What's a guy to do besides play mayor of some land? Pretend we are all wonderful just because we get to write the history books? Gay brothers? You guys need to get off the internet as you are beginning to look to me like snootie little girls. Why do you think it is that in the 1st world think shinola happens? The news is just the news -- you are not needed to put a spin on it. Everything in the developed world is just gone to pot and is vain, just like King Solomon said.

I'm suddenly appreciating the Canadian view much more than before.

[palbert]

I'm suddenly appreciating the Canadian view much more than before.

Move there then.

[SLOPPYSECONDS]

kingy solollmon no a avaislabulls fa commints right now

* who solly? *
anoda one lands historys props keep um from checkin there feet
^ ooh feet taaaaaaaaaaaaxxxxxxxxxeeeeeeeeeeeee ^
coor folk so busy a tadays
£ lucky marsians no invadin £
! not worry da top folk is got toys on it !
ooh! bet hard work playin who got best toy
SSSSSSSH"

ha

[Hard-up1]

It remains to be proven that the Marsians have not invaded, Slopper.

[SLOPPYSECONDS]

bot ma lips a seals
* Clap clap harhar *
ya is a 1

anyway

thankyou

*rubba stamp*
lick

[palemale]

Mayor Koch was irritating, grumpy, a pain in the ass, and obnoxious. And those were his good qualities. I disliked him for many years. He happens to be the best mayor we have had in my lifetime (I'm over 50). He took over as Mayor when the City was in dire straights and turned things around. He did not decimate social services, he did not demonize unions, he was not anti-working class and poor people, he was not the mayor of the 1%. All in contrast to our current mayor, Bloomberg, who is horrible. The wrong mayor died today. RIP Ed Koch.

[PreTTy PeTe]

But the point is well established that the late mayor was not silent. Out and proud? No. A gay rights advocate in a powerful post? Yes.

He was elected three times to he mayoralty of New York City, so millions of people found him to be doing a good job.

I'm still not clear as to how his policies or out/closeted status impacted our gay brothers in Canada?

you don't get it do you?

everyone who stayed silent during the early years has a part on the continuing crisis.

it's not a canadian/american thing but a human rights thing.

[bankside]

Good grief. I see no evidence that the man was a stranger to controversy in his lifetime or that he would have blushed from debate in the strongest terms. His legacy is debatable. But I doubt he would have framed any argument about style or substance in terms of "well that's wrong because a Canadian said it." Seriously.

[palbert]

you don't get it do you?

everyone who stayed silent during the early years has a part on the continuing crisis.

it's not a canadian/american thing but a human rights thing.

Could you kindly go back to shoveling snow.

We have a country to concern ourselves with. You seem to be without one.

[PreTTy PeTe]

Could you kindly go back to shoveling snow.

We have a country to concern ourselves with. You seem to be without one.

you are so special.

I love how simple you are..... do you wear a helmet in case you fall and hurt that amazing brain of yours. can't let those couple brain cells get hurt.

[Hard-up1]

Good grief. I see no evidence that the man was a stranger to controversy in his lifetime or that he would have blushed from debate in the strongest terms. His legacy is debatable. But I doubt he would have framed any argument about style or substance in terms of "well that's wrong because a Canadian said it." Seriously.

I'm not pretending to be Koch-by-proxy. That said, I don't recall him apologizing for his positions that defended gay rights.

My comment is that the criticism of the late mayor seems to be of the tenor that he hurt "US" by his being closeted. "WE" have rights as citizens differently in our different nations.

I'm sincerely not clear how the politics of New York's mayor have hindered what progress what possible in Canada.

I have no ill-will for Canada or Canadians, and I wish the reverse were true.

As for defending the subject of my thread, I do not shrink from that, and I have yet to read anything that refutes the historical record that Mr. Koch was an advocate of gay rights in civil policies and law. So, again I ask, why is he a villain if he advanced our cause? Why?

[palbert]

Koch was a mayor of a great city.

Name one north of the US.

[SLOPPYSECONDS]

great city carpets
* ooh look at dat? *
SSSSSSH"

lift up
* ooh sure *
not ya butt da carpet
* ooh

ha

[bankside]

I'm not pretending to be Koch-by-proxy. That said, I don't recall him apologizing for his positions that defended gay rights.

My comment is that the criticism of the late mayor seems to be of the tenor that he hurt "US" by his being closeted. "WE" have rights as citizens differently in our different nations.

I'm sincerely not clear how the politics of New York's mayor have hindered what progress what possible in Canada.

I have no ill-will for Canada or Canadians, and I wish the reverse were true.

As for defending the subject of my thread, I do not shrink from that, and I have yet to read anything that refutes the historical record that Mr. Koch was an advocate of gay rights in civil policies and law. So, again I ask, why is he a villain if he advanced our cause? Why?

Wasn't my point. To amplify: in the debate over this man's legacy, an accurate assessment of his political life will not depend on whether the assessment is made by a Canadian or not. I have no ill-will for New Yorkers, for example; my positive regard for them could be embodied in a recognition that Koch was a terrible mayor and I lament the time wasted under his tenure, or it could be embodied in a recognition that New Yorkers elected a great man to lead them. I don't know enough about Koch to say. But I do know enough to realize that my opinion on his leadership has nothing to do with my passport.

And select people in this thread are debating the passport of the opinion-holder, rather than the opinion. It's ineffective and unconvincing. I have no bone to pick with your presentation of points in his favour on the issue of equality. And normally I would agree that it does a seemly courtesy to the memory of the deceased to focus on his accomplishments on the day of his death, rather than his failings. But I do know enough of the persona of Ed Koch from having seen him in interviews over the years, that he would be neither surprised nor wounded that his legacy would be debated before the sun sets the first day of his absence. That was my only disagreement with you.

But for all who are more concerned with snow than opinions, the snow melted here today; go shovel your own.

[bankside]

Koch was a mayor of a great city.

Name one north of the US.

If it helps you to resolve the question of Koch's legacy (though I'm honestly still at a loss as to how), kindly consult this list of cities arranged by latitude:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_by_latitude

[Hard-up1]

I eagerly concur that everyone is entitled to voice opinions, and I am no defender of xenophobia or ethnocentrism or rabid nationalism.

Still, when the strongly caustic and accusative remarks come from without the country and aimed at a native son, I think it is valid to point out that the source of the attack is not from someone who would have been subject to the effects of the late mayor's influence.

For me, it is legitimate to point out that the supposedly injured party, is making remote commentary rather than speaking from a place of one impacted by a government's actions.

Of course, I have never been to New York, except to fly through, so I am an outsider to city politics there, but what Mr. Koch did for gay rights there did in fact help set legal precedent for what my city may have to likewise respect in law as another city under the same federal constitution.

[Sausy]

Ed Koch was so many contradictory things....a lot of people loved him, others loathed him. He had a bigger than life ego but decisive leaders are often flawed people, and he was essential in getting New York turned around...headed for decay he would not let the city he loved go down without him fighting for it. He was an original and will be missed.

You did pretty damn good, Mr. Mayor!