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  1. #401

    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Socialism, defined as the government ownership or control of the means of production, did not build the railroads. It provided incentives in the form of land grants, but then the government stepped aside and the railroads were built with great speed and owned by private interprise. The government neither owned or controlled them.

  2. #402
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    The problem is this: Giancarlo is the one who's insisting that 2 + 2 = 5.
    Bullshit response. I am the one speaking logic and reason here and I haven't seen one shred of proof from the right wingers.

    And thanks for that Benvolio, socialism did build the railroads. It's a nice try but try again. A lot of that would not have been funded without government support. Keep blaming government. Private enterprise had little to do with the growth of railroads. It's a nice try... but a false response. Anymore historical revisionism?

  3. #403
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    In those olden days of yore, the government was friendly to business, not the enemy, and labor unions were weak. Foreign competition did not exist. Now that combination has destroyed much of our heavy industry. Even the advocates of immigration say they are here for very low paying jobs, even as government burdens force such jobs overseas.
    Oh yes what great days were those when people worked for 14 hour shifts... basically slave labor. I'm sure some of the selfish right wingers would love to go back to those days where businessman pocket most of the money and people have to work for little pay. Government doesn't heavy industry or the private sector. Thanks for the lovely historical revisionism. Have anymore?

  4. #404

    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    American laborers would like to regain those big paying heavy industry jobs.

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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    American laborers would like to regain those big paying heavy industry jobs.
    They moved overseas dude. You think factory work is still here and just went to immigrants? Get real.

  6. #406
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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Benvolio-all the jobs that will be taken by Americans have been taken by Americans. They don't want the jobs that are filled with illegal immigrants, which is why they can get them in the first place. Removing immigrants means that Americans suddenly get their shitty jobs, and they'll want more for it. Jobs must be created for Americans with help from the federal government, as some have been. There's too many of us and too few jobs we'll take.

  7. #407

    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    The reason the jobs are low paying is because there are so many people willing to work cheap. Stop the immigration and let employers pay more. But it is wrong to assume that the problem is only illegals. The economic effects of legal immigration are much the same. Is taxi driving such a bad job that Americans will not take it? I think not. Construction? Factories?
    Low paying jobs often cost the country more than he are worth. Our taxpayers nod up having to give the workers welfare, food stamps, health care, schools for their children,subsidized housing. Far better to send those jobs to other countries.

  8. #408
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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    The reason the jobs are low paying is because there are so many people willing to work cheap. Stop the immigration and let employers pay more. But it is wrong to assume that the problem is only illegals. The economic effects of legal immigration are much the same. Is taxi driving such a bad job that Americans will not take it? I think not. Construction? Factories?
    Low paying jobs often cost the country more than he are worth. Our taxpayers nod up having to give the workers welfare, food stamps, health care, schools for their children,subsidized housing. Far better to send those jobs to other countries.
    You're just repeating this over and over again. Evidence doesn't support your position. As pointed out above the inflow of Irish and Italian immigrants ultimately moved more native borns upwards in terms of income and socioeconomic class.

    Your position only makes sense to you because you operate from this factually incorrect mindset that all immigrants do is come in here and suck at resources and do not contribute anything. Any immigrant here is eating here, paying for a roof here, buying goods here. You remove them and you also remove a lot of demand from the economy.
    Last edited by xbuzzerx; February 10th, 2013 at 02:04 PM.

  9. #409
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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    I'm more specifically referring to agricultural jobs, in which case it is beyond optimal for all parties for those positions to be taken by those that need the little money the job offers. Don't you like that food is by-and-large cheap? The only reason some Mexicans aren't here legally is because you don't have to fly or take a boat to get here. Mexicans come from the border and up. Along the way (depending on where) you'll be likely to find orchards and farms in southern California, ranching operations in Texas and New Mexico, and god knows what in Aridzone. The point is, they take under the table jobs that give them money they need and keep the domestic cost of food low to everyone. It's far more likely for an illegal immigrant to get a job in unskilled agriculture (an insignificant one to most of us) than to sign on with a taxi company. Taxi companies are higher up, they have more to lose. Hence, many Mexican taxi drivers are here legally. Agriculture is more rural and is easier to do under-the-table work away from the roving eyes of a large population.

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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    And as buzzer said, they contribute what they make. They don't waste it. They can't afford to.

  11. #411

    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Cheap food is an illusion if we have to give them schools, health care, food stamps etc. But illegals do much more than agricultural. Much of the construction, restaurant, hotel, etc work as well. And again, legal immigrants compete with Americans and pull wages down as well.
    Actually much of the agricultural workers are here on temporary work permits, and are expected to return home.
    Last edited by Benvolio; February 10th, 2013 at 02:18 PM.

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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    It's funny, all of those services you listed require proof of citizenship. Yes, they do those things, they also do them well and for less than half of a citizen. Same quality, half the cost. But if Americans aren't going for those jobs, they aren't going for them. Illegal immigrants only get an upper hand if all the other resources have been exhausted; they're a liability.

  13. #413
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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Cheap food is an illusion if we have to give them schools, health care, food stamps etc. But illegals do much more than agricultural. Much of the construction, restaurant, hotel, etc work as well. And again, legal immigrants compete with Americans and pull wages down as well.
    Actually much of the agricultural workers are here on temporary work permits, and are expected to return home.
    You can't get those as illegals. The American-born children of immigrants who attend public schools are not illegal, they are American citizens. It doesn't matter if you don't like that. It's fact.

  14. #414
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    American laborers would like to regain those big paying heavy industry jobs.
    And yet another generality... I guess that's what the right wing does best.

    Capitalism dictated that those jobs moved overseas. And how can someone say "American laborers would like to regain those heavy industry jobs?" They aren't big paying by the way. Just ask those in other countries.

    Stop trying to engage in protectionism.

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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    And yet another generality... I guess that's what the right wing does best.

    Capitalism dictated that those jobs moved overseas. And how can someone say "American laborers would like to regain those heavy industry jobs?" They aren't big paying by the way. Just ask those in other countries.

    Stop trying to engage in protectionism.
    It's kind of ironic how a siege mindset or isolationist view on foreign policy is something conservatives would all resoundingly denounce, yet on the topic of immigration they switch right over and adopt that mindset on pseudoscience economic reasonings.

  16. #416
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Cheap food is an illusion if we have to give them schools, health care, food stamps etc. But illegals do much more than agricultural. Much of the construction, restaurant, hotel, etc work as well. And again, legal immigrants compete with Americans and pull wages down as well.
    Actually much of the agricultural workers are here on temporary work permits, and are expected to return home.
    Thanks for more falsehoods... have any more to share? Most agricultural workers are not here on temporary work permits. Many are paid under the table at wages lower than minimum wage.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    It's kind of ironic how a siege mindset or isolationist view on foreign policy is something conservatives would all resoundingly denounce, yet on the topic of immigration they switch right over and adopt that mindset on pseudoscience economic reasonings.
    It's pure and simple protectionism and isolationism. It won't work for the United states.

  17. #417
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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    I just caught this:

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    Are you suggesting there is a correlation between a particular language and aptitude, general intelligence, or success?
    Absolutely not!

    I'm merely attempting to point out that even within certain demographics there is a an "us against them" mentality that seems to be apparent.

    Most Texans who trace their family lineage back to Mexico, have virtually nothing in common with a Hispanic from Cuba.

    Most Hispanics I know take offense when they're ignorantly called "Mexicans" when many of them have never visited that country in their lives, but who actually speak Castillian Spanish.

    The topic of 'immigration' itself isn't even universal along the "border states" of the Southwestern United States.

    What's truly surprising here, and why this topic is of interest, is that for the first time a Republican Senator from Florida, with a Latin Surname is actually proposing getting past the "amnesty" debate, and actually attempting to rationally deal with this issue head on.

    At this point nothing else really matters.

    Some Republicans seem to think that this might give them some inroads into the Hispanic "voting bloc," and I'm sure that they're right.

    So called Republicans like Ann Coulter want to sale books, promote their hate, and keep the country divided on this issue.

    I was just trying to point out that just because it's perceived that "they" don't speak English doesn't mean that they're all the same, and that family of 5th or 6th Generation Mexican/Americans share the same history as those families from California.

    They were here first, and it's always interesting to learn about and to know, and to see things from their perspective.
    Last edited by CTF; February 10th, 2013 at 04:04 PM.
    Never regret anything, because in that moment it's exactly what you wanted.

  18. #418
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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by centexfarmer View Post
    I was just trying to point out that just because it's perceived that "they" don't speak English doesn't mean that they're all the same, and that family of 5th or 6th Generation Mexican/Americans share the same history as those families from California.

    They were here first, and it's always interesting to learn about and to know, and to see things from their perspective.
    Yup. There are definitely a lot of old families in California who can with all honesty and rightness say: we didn't come to the U.S., the U.S. came to us. The map changed.

  19. #419

    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by centexfarmer View Post
    but who actually speak Castillian Spanish.
    All Spanish speakers speak Castilian Spanish. Castellano (Castilian in English) is a Spanish word meaning the Spanish language.

  20. #420
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Mexicans speak Castillian Spanish. I speak Castillian Spanish and I'm from Spain. I've gone over this so many times. People who are offended are not the majority opinion... that's just anecdotal at best.

    And Marco Rubio is more of a white man than a Latino.

    By the way, Cuban Spanish and Puerto Rican Spanish are quite a bit different than Spanish from Spain with the accent and such. Why is Cuban and Puerto Rican Spanish more Castillian than Spanish from Mexico? They aren't. It's all Spanish with perhaps differences in some words and dialect. Just like how Brazilian Portuguese is still Portuguese.

    Maybe those Texan stereotypes need to be flushed down the toilet.

    Rubio's suggestions are half hearted and half assed... in my opinion. They don't even go close to addressing the issues. But even the half hearted and half assed suggestions are enough to piss off the extreme right wingers in his party. It doesn't change or alter the fact that republicans have lost Latinos as a whole, and are even losing their grip on Cuban-Americans which went 50/50 democrat.
    Last edited by GiancarloC; February 10th, 2013 at 05:04 PM.

  21. #421
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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    I was referring to Chinese immigrants, mainly the undocumented ones... but yea that is perhaps true.
    Oh, it's definitely true -- the federal government handed out incredible tracts of land to the railroads, gave them authority to condemn land and move people out of the way of their chosen route, and more, to the point that they actually made a profit (long term) from building the railroad across the west, besides from running it.

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    I question the World Bank as to their logic in that ranking. Brazil seems to be having many new businesses open up with government support. The economy took a breather last year, but is back on track. Regardless it's strange they put it at 130th, yet it's economy has increased to the 6th or 7th largest in the world powered by a mixture of economic growth that remains within the limits of respecting its people.
    A good piece of that is due to the fact that unless the business you want to start is part of the government's plan, you may as well be trying to plant petunias on a sand dune (the flip side being that if you want to start a business that fits the government's plan, it's about as hard as running down a sand dune).

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  22. #422
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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    The problem is this: Giancarlo is the one who's insisting that 2 + 2 = 5.
    It would be more accurate to say that Giancarlo insists that the sum of two and two lies between the lowest two odd primes; meanwhile, you seem to hold the position that the sum is equal to pi, except that you've rounded pi to three.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  23. #423
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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    American laborers would like to regain those big paying heavy industry jobs.
    That's never going to happen, because the world as a whole is losing those jobs. China and Korea even complain that the number of manufacturing jobs is decreasing, and the reason is simple: robots now do the work, and they don't need health plans or retirement or unemployment or any of a number of other things humans do.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  24. #424
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    That's never going to happen, because the world as a whole is losing those jobs. China and Korea even complain that the number of manufacturing jobs is decreasing, and the reason is simple: robots now do the work, and they don't need health plans or retirement or unemployment or any of a number of other things humans do.
    If we were to keep the same number of workers and not have robots in the work force, prices for those manufactured goods would increase, and the right wingers would complain about that.

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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    If we were to keep the same number of workers and not have robots in the work force, prices for those manufactured goods would increase, and the right wingers would complain about that.
    Probably. The people who tried to defend the jobs of candle makers after the invention of the electric light were very much like today's right-wingers.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  26. #426

    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Probably. The people who tried to defend the jobs of candle makers after the invention of the electric light were very much like today's right-wingers.
    It is the other way around. As jobs are eliminated by technology, the Democrats insist upon importing cheap labor for jobs which do not exist. And, they try to justify it by pointing to the immigration of Iris, Italians, etc in the olden days, when jobs were being created, and employers did not want to hire blacks.
    Last edited by Benvolio; February 11th, 2013 at 04:36 AM.

  27. #427
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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    As jobs are eliminated by technology, the Democrats insist upon importing cheap labor for jobs which do not exist. And, they try to justify it by pointing to the immigration of Iris


  28. #428
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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Oh, it's definitely true -- the federal government handed out incredible tracts of land to the railroads, gave them authority to condemn land and move people out of the way of their chosen route, and more, to the point that they actually made a profit (long term) from building the railroad across the west, besides from running it.
    Have you actually studied the history of railroads in the US?
    Yes, they were given a section of land or thereabouts for each mile of railroad constructed, they sold the land to gain construction funds, and many, if not most, of them were bankrupt before 1900. Railroading was not all that profitable in the early days.
    Last edited by CTF; February 11th, 2013 at 05:17 PM. Reason: repaired quote tags

  29. #429
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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    That's never going to happen, because the world as a whole is losing those jobs. China and Korea even complain that the number of manufacturing jobs is decreasing, and the reason is simple: robots now do the work, and they don't need health plans or retirement or unemployment or any of a number of other things humans do.
    I'm really looking forward to posts from Benny accusing the Democrats of bringing in billions of illegal robots to vote for Hillary in 2016.

  30. #430
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    It is the other way around. As jobs are eliminated by technology, the Democrats insist upon importing cheap labor for jobs which do not exist. And, they try to justify it by pointing to the immigration of Iris, Italians, etc in the olden days, when jobs were being created, and employers did not want to hire blacks.
    Utter nonsense. That's not the case at all. If there is more labor, costs would go up.... not down. There would be more wages to pay. Manufacturing no longer drives the economy... so deal with it.

  31. #431
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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    It is the other way around. As jobs are eliminated by technology, the Democrats insist upon importing cheap labor for jobs which do not exist. And, they try to justify it by pointing to the immigration of Iris, Italians, etc in the olden days, when jobs were being created, and employers did not want to hire blacks.
    Wat.

    In your world, Benvolio, did liberals kill the electric car and stifle hydrogen fuel cell technology and biofuel tech to such a degree that Brasil got there ahead of us?

  32. #432

    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    You clearly did not understand my post, Giancarlo. Read it again.

  33. #433
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    I've understood it extremely clearly. And I know it's rubbish.

  34. #434

    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    You clearly do not understand.

  35. #435
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Oh but I do and I saw right through the rhetoric. Try again.

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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Wat.

    In your world, Benvolio, did liberals kill the electric car and stifle hydrogen fuel cell technology and biofuel tech to such a degree that Brasil got there ahead of us?
    LOL

    Brazil has done what so many right-wingers in the US cry for: they run the country like a business. Of course, what the right wingers mean by the phrase is that they want the government to hand the country over to business....

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  37. #437
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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Wat.

    In your world, Benvolio, did liberals kill the electric car and stifle hydrogen fuel cell technology and biofuel tech to such a degree that Brasil got there ahead of us?
    Everyone knows that it was the Stonecutters that killed the electric car...and made Steve Guttenberg a star!



    It is now time for the Paddling of the Swollen Ass!

  38. #438
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Brazil doesn't exactly run like a business as they are more conscious about their people and providing universal health care and such for their people.

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