Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

[GiancarloC]

wow. For the last time, what they speak in Mexico is indeed Spanish. I know some may discriminate against Mexicans, but lets stick to the facts. And I'm saying this as a SPANISH PERSON FROM SPAIN.



Here is some Spanish from Spain... listen to the King. He has something insightful to say.

MEXICANS SPEAK SPANISH. THIS IS FACT. I'm utterly shocked by what some say. I wouldn't go to Texas and say people speak Texan... and not English... would I?

[HenryReardon]

Hogwash. While Giancarlo is applauding the impending Latino majority, you, and he, are attempting to foreclose discussion of it by labeling the contrary view as racism.

That is what people on the left do when they're losing an argument - they cry racism to stop the conversation. Typical.

[GiancarloC]

An argument requires both sides to come up with sources, and so far only the left leaning posters have done so.

[CowboyBob]

That is what people on the left do when they're losing an argument - they cry racism to stop the conversation. Typical.

The one thing a racist hates more than a person from another race, is being called a racist.

[CTF]

MEXICANS SPEAK SPANISH. THIS IS FACT. I'm utterly shocked by what some say. I wouldn't go to Texas and say people speak Texan... and not English... would I?

Regarding that point, I've heard more "racist" comments from Central and South American Spanish speaking individuals from Countries outside of Mexico, than I've heard from right wing bigots here in the States.

I'm just saying there must be a "cultural and language divide" somewhere, because in this Hemisphere I'm glad I'm not a Mexican Immigrant.

[GiancarloC]

Regarding that point, I've heard more "racist" comments from Central and South American Spanish speaking individuals from Countries outside of Mexico, than I've heard from right wing bigots here in the States.

I'm just saying there must be a "cultural and language divide" somewhere, because in this Hemisphere I'm glad I'm not a Mexican Immigrant.

What a NON-point. I'm absolutely horrified by what was said.

There are language divides even within Spanish speaking countries, including in Spain. Seriously shocked by that comment. It has absolutely no basis in reality. What Mexicans speak is SPANISH. It may be slightly different, but it's still SPANISH.

And I am not interested in anecdotal statements. Most people I know from South and Central America are fine with Mexicans. And as a Spanish person, I am PERFECTLY COMFORTABLE around Mexicans... and many of my friends are Mexican.

[CTF]

What a NON-point. I'm absolutely horrified by what was said.

There are language divides even within Spanish speaking countries, including in Spain. Seriously shocked by that comment. It has absolutely no basis in reality. What Mexicans speak is SPANISH. It may be slightly different, but it's still SPANISH.

And I am not interested in anecdotal statements. Most people I know from South and Central America are fine with Mexicans. And as a Spanish person, I am PERFECTLY COMFORTABLE around Mexicans... and many of my friends are Mexican.

Bullshit!

DON'T GET ME WRONG!

I have more friends who trace their heritage back to Mexico than I do friends who trace their heritage back to Europe.

I employ more people who who's parents originate from Mexico (Legal or Not), who feel the same as I do.

So get your European Spanish Sensibilities in a wad all that you want, I'm just suggesting that you might not fully understand the historical dynamics of this side of the world as much as you might like to champion or defend what you (justifiably) consider an attack against a group that's considered "different."

[GiancarloC]

Bullshit!

DON'T GET ME WRONG!

BULLSHIT IN RESPONSE! WHAT THEY SPEAK IS SPANISH END OF STORY.

I have more friends who trace their heritage back to Mexico than I do friends who trace their heritage back to Europe.

Oh yes the I have more friends response.

I employ more people who who's parents originate from Mexico (Legal or Not), who feel the same as I do.

And?

So get your European Spanish Sensibilities in a wad all that you want, I'm just suggesting that you might not fully understand the historical dynamics of this side of the world as much as you might like to champion or defend what you (justifiably) consider an attack against a group that's considered "different."

I'm just stating the pure simple facts. WHat they speak in Mexico is Spanish. It may not be the same and one can call it bullshit all they want, but it's still Spanish. I'll say bullshit back.

I don't care about how many Mexican friends one has, when they speak a BLATANT FALSEHOOD, I'll be VERY CLEAR ABOUT IT. This isn't about sensibilities or anything, but EXPOSING BLATANT FALSEHOODS.

Oh and I guarantee I do know the history very well!!! I don't need to be lectured here... not today, not any day!

I guess this is a time my personality matches MY AVATAR.

[CTF]

^ Dude!

I'm not trying to say that you're perspective or perception is wrong because it's different from mine.

But I am saying that THERE ARE NO ABSOLUTES!

Even regionally, and within different demographics, just because many of us share the same skin color, or might even speak the same language, doesn't mean that we all agree.

I figured that out of all of the posters who've posted in this thread thus far, you'd be the one to recognize that.

[GiancarloC]

Don't even try to go after me or my perception after I spent a good majority of my fucking life in Latin America living there. And as far as this is concerned, I caught a lie in the midst of this forum... and I exposed it. This is beyond perspectives and perceptions. I will not stand for it. At all.

And as far as Texas, I'll remind myself that they speak TEXAN there and not actual English. I'm sure a British person would say the same about the entire US.

No absolutes... lol... just covering the falsehood that I exposed.

And I never said all Latinos agree on everything... pay attention... they aren't a universal group. But there is more cohesion now (at least politically) than there has been in years past.

[xbuzzerx]

There is actually a hard definition of what a language is, and I'm operating off memory, but if it's mutually intelligible then it's different dialects at best, not separate languages.

Cubans, Argentinians and Mexicans would all recognizes differences in accent and certain words they use, but would be able to speak to each other... in Spanish.

[GiancarloC]

I want to see where I ever said that all Latinos agree on everything. Where did I say that? Even in Spain, we have major political differences in the country and our asshole prime minister just got embroiled in a corruption scandal. There are differences in opinion in EVERY COUNTRY. It's human nature. But the overall trend for most Latin American countries is to the POLITICAL LEFT.

Really the only thing I said is that Mexicans speak Spanish, and for anyone that says otherwise... malarkey.

[CowboyBob]

Mexico:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico

...is the world's eleventh most populous country and the most populous Spanish-speaking country.

Texas-speak:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Texas

Not to mention: fuutbawl, Bapteest, Dubya, Ayl-emo, ya'll, sheee-it!

[CTF]

I want to see where I ever said that all Latinos agree on everything. Where did I say that? Even in Spain, we have major political differences in the country and our asshole prime minister just got embroiled in a corruption scandal. There are differences in opinion in EVERY COUNTRY. It's human nature. But the overall trend for most Latin American countries is to the POLITICAL LEFT.

And most Islamist are Secular.

And we see where that's gotten them.

Really the only thing I said is that Mexicans speak Spanish, and for anyone that says otherwise... malarkey.

What's the Spanish translation for an Irish term like that?

[GiancarloC]

And most Islamist are Secular.

And we see where that's gotten them.

Nice troll... it fails.

Irrelevant. I'm talking about the political trend in most Latin American countries. But I do like the leftist government in Brazil has done... Lula was more effective than Rousseff... but they have 4.9% unemployment and about +3% GDP growth (could be even higher this year... some say +4 to +5%)... also reduced crime and made cities nicer. Millions of Brazilians have entered in the middle class. While a certain guy from Crawford spent years destroying the middle class in America...

What's the Spanish translation for an Irish term like that?

Joe Biden.... Joe Biden.

[CTF]

Texas-speak:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Texas

Not to mention: fuutbawl, Bapteest, Dubya, Ayl-emo, ya'll, sheee-it!

FUN FACT!

Whenever anyone in North America buys something from China where "some assembly" is required, the instructions are printed in ONLY three languages; Spanish, English, and French.

Why?

Because those are the three most dominant languages in North America!

Not Mexican.

[GiancarloC]

*shakes head* I guess mods... well... can troll too.

[CTF]

Nice troll...

You're calling me a "troll?"



Thank you for that!

I haven't laughed that hard all week!

[GiancarloC]

You're calling me a "troll?"



Thank you for that!

I haven't laughed that hard all week!

Based on what I've seen here... I can't hold back from saying it.

I'm not bending over for anyone... and won't be quiet in that regard.

[CTF]

I'm talking about the political trend in most Latin American countries. But I do like the leftist government in Brazil has done... Lula was more effective than Rousseff... but they have 4.9% unemployment and about +3% GDP growth (could be even higher this year... some say +4 to +5%)... also reduced crime and made cities nicer. Millions of Brazilians have entered in the middle class. While a certain guy from Crawford spent years destroying the middle class in America...

BINGO!

And now we're back on topic!

I read recently a report where most Brazilian Nationals are returning home.

Which proves to me that it's really about economics.

I honestly believe that the whole topic of American "Immigration Reform" is more about politics than economics.

Republicans want "immigrants" to keep the cost of labor down, and Democrats want "immigrants" as a potential voting bloc.

None of which has anything to do with the American "Middle Class."

[GiancarloC]

Um what about economics? I've been talking about economics for about 5 or 6 pages now... as well as other factors. It's just that certain posters found the need to pose an argument about deporting every immigrant.

[chrisrobin]

And most Islamist are Secular.

And we see where that's gotten them.



What's the Spanish translation for an Irish term like that?

pamplina = the droppings of the bull.

[CTF]

Um what about economics? I've been talking about economics for about 5 or 6 pages now... as well as other factors.

You may have started out discussing that as your premise, but you've allowed yourself to get bogged down (distracted) with/by 'trolls.'

Nice attempt at a "save" there.

[chrisrobin]

FUN FACT!

Whenever anyone in North America buys something from China where "some assembly" is required, the instructions are printed in ONLY three languages; Spanish, English, and French.

Why?




Because those are the three most dominant languages in North America!

Not Mexican.

What aboot Canadian?

[CTF]

pamplina = the droppings of the bull.

There ya go!

Now there's someone who knows how to speak some Spanglish!

[GiancarloC]

You may have started out discussing that as your premise, but you've allowed yourself to get bogged down (distracted) with/by 'trolls.'

Nice attempt at a "save" there.

I've been consistent with my argument even when responding to them.

[CTF]

I've been consistent with my argument even when responding to them.

Well clearly I just stepped into this discussion without having read the whole thread (327 posts in), but honestly it doesn't APPEAR to the casual observer that what you're saying is an accurate perspective.

I completely get and respect your defense against real trolls where you're coming from, and why you might get/be defensive, but I disagree with you in your statement there.

Shall we continue with this "back and forth" or do you care to return to the topic?

[GiancarloC]

Well clearly I just stepped into this discussion without having read the whole thread, but honestly it doesn't APPEAR to the casual observer that what you're saying is an accurate perspective.

The casual observer would easily get what I was saying and my perspective is HIGHLY ACCURATE. Thank you very much. It's very well supported too.

I completely get and respect your defense against real trolls where you're coming from, and why you might get/be defensive, but I disagree with you in your statement here.

Go ahead... I'm still not bending over.

[CTF]

The casual observer would easily get what I was saying and my perspective is HIGHLY ACCURATE. Thank you very much. It's very well supported too.



Go ahead... I'm still not bending over.

I never suggested that you couldn't pick a position that you weren't comfortable in.

[GiancarloC]

I never suggested that you couldn't pick a position that you weren't comfortable in.

[Rolyo85]

That is what people on the left do when they're losing an argument - they cry racism to stop the conversation. Typical.

And that's what people on the right do, when confronted about their thinly veiled bigotry - they claim they were actually winning and the other side got rude to cover for it.

[Rolyo85]

There is actually a hard definition of what a language is, and I'm operating off memory, but if it's mutually intelligible then it's different dialects at best, not separate languages.

Cubans, Argentinians and Mexicans would all recognizes differences in accent and certain words they use, but would be able to speak to each other... in Spanish.

Lol, tell that to Macedonians who claim to have their own language, and not - actually - a funny sounding Bulgarian dialect with Serbian words thrown in for confusion's sake.

[Benvolio]

Based on what I've seen here... I can't hold back from saying it.

I'm not bending over for anyone... and won't be quiet in that regard.

Calling him a troll IS a personal attack.
I did not attack Giancarlo, I agreed with him (Feb 8 at 6:17). I, like him, would choose an English speaking country.

[palemale]

I never suggested that you couldn't pick a position that you weren't comfortable in.

Good advice. I'm not comfortable with doggie, so I never pick that position (except when I'm topping).

[palemale]

Much of the divide politically in this country is really North-South, not racial or ethnic. The Republican Party has become the party of the South and is destined to be relegated a dwindling, regional party. The ideology of the South has become the ideology of the Republican Party. In an article in Salon, Michael Lind, an author from the South, writes persuasively that the genesis of this divide is the basis of our current political paralysis and has its roots in the different way the South has experienced American history from the Northeast, Midwest and West. Essentially, the rest of the country outside the South perceives American history as one of military success, against the British, the Confederacy, the Nazis and Japanese, and the Soviet Union in the Cold War. The South, he argues, sees American history as a series of defeats, from the Civil War, the end of slavery, the Civil Rights movement, etc. It is definitely worth a read:

http://www.salon.com/2013/02/05/the_...s_last_defeat/

[GiancarloC]

Calling him a troll IS a personal attack.
I did not attack Giancarlo, I agreed with him (Feb 8 at 6:17). I, like him, would choose an English speaking country.

Says the one that engaged in xenophobic and racist attacks. And you never agreed with me.

LMAO. I was attacked repeatedly. I never said I would choose an English speaking country. America doesn't have an official language. I guess a fact check is needed. There are many languages spoken in this country... just look at LA. Again, NO official language. One can even get government documents in different languages if they want.

Where did I say I would choose an English speaking country over a Spanish speaking one? Again stop making bullshit up please.

[Benvolio]

LMAO. I was attacked repeatedly. I never said I would choose an English speaking country. America doesn't have an official language. I guess a fact check is needed. There are many languages spoken in this country... just look at LA. Again, NO official language. One can even get government documents in different languages if they want.

Where did I say I would choose an English speaking country over a Spanish speaking one? Again stop making bullshit up please.

You did choose a English speaking country.

[JockBoy87]

I'm not bending over for anyone...

Tease

[GiancarloC]

You did choose a English speaking country.

America isn't an English speaking country. It's official language isn't English. FACT PLEASE. If it's official language was English one would have a case. And Los Angeles is a very multilingual city... very diverse.

There is NO official language in America and for good reason.

[Benvolio]

Irrelevant, English is the de facto language of the U S and all Federal documents are in English. It is the official language of 33 states. More important, the English speaking culture has historically been the dominant culture, as in UK, Australia, New Zealand and most of Canada. I agree with your choice to come here rather than to a Hispanic country. Agreeing with your choice is not in any sense an attack on you.

Your calling centexfarmer a troll was a personal attack.

[Kulindahr]

America isn't an English speaking country. It's official language isn't English. FACT PLEASE. If it's official language was English one would have a case. And Los Angeles is a very multilingual city... very diverse.

There is NO official language in America and for good reason.

Back when German immigrants were flocking in, the percentage of non-English speakers was far, far higher than it is today, enough so that some wondered if German would become the dominant language. Of course it didn't, and for a very important reason: the people with the money and the established businesses weren't going to change.

Congress even took up the issue, and its decision was there should be no official language because that would tell immigrants they were less than the rest, second-class citizens, something utterly foreign to the founding concepts.

[xbuzzerx]

What does it MATTER what language is spoken in the country immigrants are trying to get into?

How is this relevant to anything? I don't see why it's even coming up other than in some broad-brush attempt to paint all Spanish speaking countries as inherently undesirable because it has hispanic, spanish speaking people in it.

[JockBoy87]

Even in Britain in the 15th century there was no single form of English that was mutably intelligible across the island. It wasn't even the dominant language of the English court until that time.

[Benvolio]

False on all counts. I have provided solid evidence and proof showing how they are essential. We're talking about $2.6 trillion over the next ten years that would be wiped out. It means absolutely everything. The economy would fall back into a deep recession. Having a contraction in the GDP at that level would lead to a severe recession. sending people back to where they came from is nothing more than a xenophobic response and isn't how the real world works.

Better to have a nation with more open borders... a nation with closed borders is a dying nation. The Chinese closed off their civilization and it led once great Empires to total decline.

And yes, plenty of other arguments matter... just not the one that you have posted here which is absolutely meaningless.

The problem here is right wingers are scared that they are becoming an ever decreasing minority of the constituency. Their screwball candidates can no longer win. It's a scary prospect. Romney won the same percentage of white voters as Reagan did... one won in a landslide and the other lost big time. Scary for the right wing these days... not like I give a shit. I hope this nation becomes 40-50% Latino in 20 years, and the Republicans go out the same way as the Whigs. Yeah, all the brown people hating the GOP does will go out the window.

Much of the divide politically in this country is really North-South, not racial or ethnic. The Republican Party has become the party of the South and is destined to be relegated a dwindling, regional party. The ideology of the South has become the ideology of the Republican Party. In an article in Salon, Michael Lind, an author from the South, writes persuasively that the genesis of this divide is the basis of our current political paralysis and has its roots in the different way the South has experienced American history from the Northeast, Midwest and West. Essentially, the rest of the country outside the South perceives American history as one of military success, against the British, the Confederacy, the Nazis and Japanese, and the Soviet Union in the Cold War. The South, he argues, sees American history as a series of defeats, from the Civil War, the end of slavery, the Civil Rights movement, etc. It is definitely worth a read:

http://www.salon.com/2013/02/05/the_...s_last_defeat/

The ideology of the Repeblican party has not changed much over the decades. It has since 1865 been the party of the white Christian, originally protestant, minority. While the Democrats became an alliance of the southern, anti northern people and the minorities, mostly Catholic, unified only by their resentment of the majority. The famous description of the Democrat party in 1888 as "rum, Romanism, and rebellion"was largely true. The Republicans were pro business all through those decades when the US became the richest , most innovative country in history. It is the Democrats who have developed the ideology which divides the country, becoming pro abortion, the biggest single divider. But the democrats became anti business, anti majority, anti assimilation,pro immigration, and more recently, anti Christian. The have promoted division as a calculated political strategy. Divide and conquer.
The Midwest has historically been Republican, far longer than the south.

[xbuzzerx]

White protestants have not been a minority since 1865.

[palemale]

The ideology of the Repeblican party has not changed much over the decades. It has since 1865 been the party of the white Christian, originally protestant, minority. While the Democrats became an alliance of the southern, anti northern people and the minorities, mostly Catholic, unified only by their resentment of the majority. The famous description of the Democrat party in 1888 as "rum, Romanism, and rebellion"was largely true. The Republicans were pro business all through those decades when the US became the richest , most innovative country in history. It is the Democrats who have developed the ideology which divides the country, becoming pro abortion, the biggest single divider. But the democrats became anti business, anti majority, anti assimilation,pro immigration, and more recently, anti Christian. The have promoted division as a calculated political strategy. Divide and conquer.
The Midwest has historically been Republican, far longer than the south.

I guess you never heard of the "Southern Strategy." That was the Republican Party plan, which it implemented quite effectively, to peal off the votes of Southern Democrats from the Democratic Party and into the Republican Party by stoking racial resentment, i.e. they appealed to racism without appearing overtly racist. It is the Republican Party that has promoted division as a political strategy. They have promoted race resentment, put gay marriage on the ballot to gin up their religious base to come out and vote, campaigned against intellectuals, unions, communists, etc. Let's get our historic facts straight.

Ultimately, the South needs to engage in some serious reflection and self analysis. It's pretty indisputable that the majority of our most negative and disgraceful episodes in American history, and our darkest historical periods, were the result of reactionary, Southern intransigence and ignorance. They resisted abolition of slavery, trade unions, civil rights, modernity. Lynching was endemic and so accepted that Southerners would bring their children out to see blacks cruelly lynched, and they would send post cards commemorating the event. Our treatment of Native Americans was one of the few, universal horrors that cannot be pinned primarily on the South.

[opinterph]

failed Latino countries

infinitely more successful English speaking country

shit language, known here in Texas as "Mexican."

Are you suggesting there is a correlation between a particular language and aptitude, general intelligence, or success?

[opinterph]

Ideally, you're right. But government is supposed to benefit its citizens, not do them harm -- and to round up all the illegals and ship them off would do immense harm to many citizens. .

"immense harm to citizens?" I rather doubt it. It would free up millions of jobs Millions. Perhaps some of the millions of able bodied citizens currently receiving welfare could be 'encouraged' to take those jobs. It would be a win win situation for Americans.

When low-skill jobs are taken by “guest workers,” the effect generally has an upward benefit for “native” workers at all skill levels. The guest workers create demand, which increases industry and productivity. If guest workers were not available, some jobs would simply cease to exist. After a certain wage point, it becomes more expedient to outsource those jobs to another country with lower wages. It’s just as likely for the work to go where the labor is as it is for labor to go where the work is.

[xbuzzerx]

When low-skill jobs are taken by “guest workers,” the effect generally has an upward benefit for “native” workers at all skill levels. The guest workers create demand, which increases industry and productivity. If guest workers were not available, some jobs would simply cease to exist. After a certain wage point, it becomes more expedient to outsource those jobs to another country with lower wages. It’s just as likely for the work to go where the labor is as it is for labor to go where the work is.

I believe this is the first post from anyone other than Giancarlo to address my repeated asking of anyone to examine what immigrant workers "put into" the economy in any discussion where people are going to throw numbers around about what they "cost" the economy. Thank you.

[Rolyo85]

What does it MATTER what language is spoken in the country immigrants are trying to get into?

How is this relevant to anything? I don't see why it's even coming up other than in some broad-brush attempt to paint all Spanish speaking countries as inherently undesirable because it has hispanic, spanish speaking people in it.

Because English is the Superior language and is spoken by the Superior cultures, duh. I thought it was obvious what he meant.