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  1. #201
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    I'm facing my palm so hard right now. These are the sources people cite while screeching that we're products of a left wing think tank.

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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    [][/INDENT]
    , the Southern Poverty Law Center added the Federation for American Immigration Reform to its list of hate groups

    ]
    The Southern Poverty Law Center? Really? A racist group calling someone else a hate group!!! That's too funny.

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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    I'm facing my palm so hard right now. These are the sources people cite while screeching that we're products of a left wing think tank.
    Well, as long as you aren't citing huffpost or daily kos, were good.

  4. #204
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    The Southern Poverty Law Center? Really? A racist group calling someone else a hate group!!! That's too funny.
    The truth hurts. The Law Center isn't a racist group.

  5. #205
    Virtus in medio stat JUB Admin opinterph's Avatar
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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Robert Rector’s paper (Heritage Foundation) was published in 2006 and his analysis is limited to data from a single year (2003) of the Current Population Survey of the US Census Bureau. He shares a variety of percentages that associate poverty according to demographic classification, but fails to demonstrate a valid connection between poverty and what he considers to be its underlying causes.

    Though Mr. Rector presents himself as an expert on matters of poverty and welfare, it is reasonably obvious that he distorts and spins data to promote political objectives. After it came to light that his work was the source for Mitt Romney’s ads attacking welfare by claiming that Obama “gutted” the requirement in the 1996 welfare reform law that recipients look for work in exchange for government support, David Brock reported that Rector is “a man with a long history of minimizing the struggles of the poor and villainizing the very idea of government assistance for those who need it.” Last September the Bridge Project (associated with super-PAC American Bridge 21st Century) published a report detailing some of the controversy surrounding Mr. Rector’s work:


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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    . The Law Center isn't a racist group.

    Of course it is. In any case you're dissembling.

    Why are you so anxious to defend the criminal class? And make no mistake, anyone here illegally is a criminal.

  7. #207
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    Of course it is. In any case you're dissembling.

    Why are you so anxious to defend the criminal class? And make no mistake, anyone here illegally is a criminal.
    LOL... of course it is? Yet another statement without a shred of any proof.

    And no they aren't. Try again. Some were brought here when they were children and they aren't criminals. Keep it up with the bullshit argument... like the make believe one about who is Hispanic or not.

    And the moment this nation implemented xenophobic ideas is the moment it'll decline into a disastrous mess.

  8. #208

    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    The final word from me is..as an American, and I am assuming a law abiding citizen, how can anyone defend those that blatantly disregard our laws for whatever reason. It is sad that these people are leaving their native countries rife with corruption and without hope or a future. It really is. It isn't my problem though. It isn't any American's problem.

  9. #209
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    And I as an American citizen wonder about those who blatantly ignore the corruption within the political party they support and how they are tied to corporate crooks that stole billions.

    I guess when one doesn't have an understanding about what immigrants go through they lack a understanding of reality.

    And it isn't America's problem? Of course it is. It's world problem. The 2008 recession was caused by corruption within this country.

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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    And no they aren't. Try again. Some were brought here when they were children and they aren't criminals. Keep it up with the bullshit argument... like the make believe one about who is Hispanic or not.

    And the moment this nation implemented xenophobic ideas is the moment it'll decline into a disastrous mess.
    They came here illegally, breaking our laws, therefore they are criminals.

    Little boys shouldn't toss big words like xenophobic around.

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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    And I as an American citizen wonder about those who blatantly ignore the corruption within the political party they support and how they are tied to corporate crooks that stole billions.

    I guess when one doesn't have an understanding about what immigrants go through they lack a understanding of reality.

    ry.
    I don't support any of the major parties, so your first point is irrelevant.

    As for what illegal immigrants go through—who cares? They're still breaking our laws and should be sent home.

  12. #212
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    They came here illegally, breaking our laws, therefore they are criminals.

    Little boys shouldn't toss big words like xenophobic around.
    LOL. The kids that were brought here when they were 4 or 5 years are criminals? Total nonsense!

    Little boys? Oh yes keep up the insults. It doesn't make up for the utter bullshit argument.

    I don't support any of the major parties, so your first point is irrelevant.

    As for what illegal immigrants go through—who cares? They're still breaking our laws and should be sent home.
    A republican denying he's a republican lol.

    No they shouldn't. They are part of this country. Deal with it. This country was built on immigration... that is just the reality.

    Undocumented immigrants contribute more to this country than right wing racists.

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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by Durango95 View Post
    The final word from me is..as an American, and I am assuming a law abiding citizen, how can anyone defend those that blatantly disregard our laws for whatever reason. It is sad that these people are leaving their native countries rife with corruption and without hope or a future. It really is. It isn't my problem though. It isn't any American's problem.
    Almost assuredly your ancestors came under the exact same circumstances at some point and some Anglo who could trace his family directly to the Mayflower was saying the same thing about your family.

    Obviously, nearly everyone of European descent in America today is a criminal right? The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

  14. #214
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Grown ups who consciously cross the border illegally are criminals, in a way that MANY immigrants weren't and aren't. So to compare those with EVERYONE's ancestry is unfair.

    That said, children are innocent in this, and having grown up in the States, they should be given citizenship. It's no more their fault they were raised here than it is an unborn baby's for having been conceived in the US. If one gets an automatic citizenship, so should the other.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  15. #215

    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by Durango95 View Post
    The final word from me is..as an American, and I am assuming a law abiding citizen, how can anyone defend those that blatantly disregard our laws for whatever reason. It is sad that these people are leaving their native countries rife with corruption and without hope or a future. It really is. It isn't my problem though. It isn't any American's problem.
    In 2003, the Supreme Court struck down the sodomy laws of Texas in the case Lawrence v. Texas. At that time, there were more than a dozen states that had laws banning sodomy. You can't defend people, gay and straight, who violated those laws? Perhaps you violated those laws. What state were you living in before 2003?

  16. #216
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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    They came here illegally, breaking our laws, therefore they are criminals.

    Little boys shouldn't toss big words like xenophobic around.

    Well then, let a big boy do it.

    Next to Benvolio...who could be your twin given the stunning similarity of positions you both hold, you and the others frothing at them mouth over all of this are as xenophobic as they come, based on the words you all write or the rabid diatribes we hear being delivered on television.

    The joke is on you though.

    The GOP has realized that they will never, ever win if they don't court the Hispanic demographic and counting on hyper-religious, crotchety old ex-Cubans isn't going to do it any more.

  17. #217

    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Grown ups who consciously cross the border illegally are criminals, in a way that MANY immigrants weren't and aren't. So to compare those with EVERYONE's ancestry is unfair.

    That said, children are innocent in this, and having grown up in the States, they should be given citizenship. It's no more their fault they were raised here than it is an unborn baby's for having been conceived in the US. If one gets an automatic citizenship, so should the other.

    I don't necessarily disagree with you. The sticky wicket is how do you give citizenship to children without a package of benefits for the criminal parents. If that problem could be solved then so be it. My own personal take is that we should do like many countries do. If the child is the product of two foreign born parents, then yes the child is a citizen but doesn't have full rights and privileges until the age of 18. That means no freebies for the parents or cousins or grandmas or uncles.

    I know there is going to be a firestorm for me to prove that the freebies are the reason they come. I can google it all day long and find studies with one bent that says yes. You can google it all day long and find studies with yet another bent that say no. Objectivity is dead in this country. As far as proof of anything it is a shell game.

    Logic would dictate that there would have to be some driving reason to leave your native country besides that of possible employment in a crappy job. That is even taking into consideration that many of these people come from places where their homes are tin shacks with dirt floors and they shit in a hole in the middle of the street.

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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by palemale View Post
    In 2003, the Supreme Court struck down the sodomy laws of Texas in the case Lawrence v. Texas. At that time, there were more than a dozen states that had laws banning sodomy. You can't defend people, gay and straight, who violated those laws? Perhaps you violated those laws. What state were you living in before 2003?
    You are attempting to to equate the private behavior of presumably consenting adults with the very public, dangerous, and illegal crossing of our borders. The situations are not analagous.

    Despite the hysterical bleating to the contrary by some of the louder fools in this forum, illegals do bring a cost to the taxpayers.
    If a very pregnant Mexican peasant makes it across the border and gives birth to her lottery baby, who pays for it?
    If she goes to a hospital, the taxpayers do.
    When either that child or one born elsewhere that she brought along gets sick, she uses the ER of the nearest hospital as an outpatient clinic. Again, the taxpayers pay.
    Then there's a dozen years of schooling, paid for by local property owners. Ad valorem taxes provide most of the money for schools.
    I wonder how many illegals own property and pay real estate taxes?

  19. #219
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by Durango95 View Post
    I don't necessarily disagree with you. The sticky wicket is how do you give citizenship to children without a package of benefits for the criminal parents. If that problem could be solved then so be it. My own personal take is that we should do like many countries do. If the child is the product of two foreign born parents, then yes the child is a citizen but doesn't have full rights and privileges until the age of 18. That means no freebies for the parents or cousins or grandmas or uncles.

    I know there is going to be a firestorm for me to prove that the freebies are the reason they come. I can google it all day long and find studies with one bent that says yes. You can google it all day long and find studies with yet another bent that say no. Objectivity is dead in this country. As far as proof of anything it is a shell game.

    Logic would dictate that there would have to be some driving reason to leave your native country besides that of possible employment in a crappy job. That is even taking into consideration that many of these people come from places where their homes are tin shacks with dirt floors and they shit in a hole in the middle of the street.
    I agree with your first paragraph. But you are as wrong about this as only an American can be. Believe me, US "freebies" are pathetic compared to other countries. The basic LIVING STANDARD is what makes it so desirable a location for illegal immigrants. Because the sad truth is that many come from places where whatever living they can do legally pales in comparison to washing dishes in Chinatown in Chicago for example. Where crime is so ridiculously high as to make living in a US ghetto a vast improvement.

    People don't come here for your - frankly insultingly small - social support network. They come because life in this country is better even for its poorest than in many countries across the globe.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  20. #220
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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    You are attempting to to equate the private behavior of presumably consenting adults with the very public, dangerous, and illegal crossing of our borders. The situations are not analagous.

    Despite the hysterical bleating to the contrary by some of the louder fools in this forum, illegals do bring a cost to the taxpayers.
    If a very pregnant Mexican peasant makes it across the border and gives birth to her lottery baby, who pays for it?
    If she goes to a hospital, the taxpayers do.
    When either that child or one born elsewhere that she brought along gets sick, she uses the ER of the nearest hospital as an outpatient clinic. Again, the taxpayers pay.
    Then there's a dozen years of schooling, paid for by local property owners. Ad valorem taxes provide most of the money for schools.
    I wonder how many illegals own property and pay real estate taxes?
    Mexican "peasant"? What if she's an educated woman from the capital? Would that make a difference for your douchbag elitism?

    And what about all the CONTRIBUTION to the economy? What about all the work they do? That somehow gets swept under the rug...
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    And what about all the CONTRIBUTION to the economy? What about all the work they do? That somehow gets swept under the rug...
    Their so-called 'contribution' to the economy is the demonstrable fact that they take jobs away from Americans. And don't hand me that tired 'jobs Americans won't do' nonsense. If the illegals didn't take them, someone would step forward, especially if they were hungry. There are still places, mostly rural, in this country where the work ethic is still strong.

    Illegals contribute nothing but problems.

  22. #222

    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    I agree with your first paragraph. But you are as wrong about this as only an American can be. Believe me, US "freebies" are pathetic compared to other countries. The basic LIVING STANDARD is what makes it so desirable a location for illegal immigrants. Because the sad truth is that many come from places where whatever living they can do legally pales in comparison to washing dishes in Chinatown in Chicago for example. Where crime is so ridiculously high as to make living in a US ghetto a vast improvement.

    People don't come here for your - frankly insultingly small - social support network. They come because life in this country is better even for its poorest than in many countries across the globe.
    I've heard the argument before about how fabulous benefits are elsewhere. There are two points I'd like to make concerning that. The first point is immigration laws in those countries are draconian compared to ours and are actually enforced. This is why these countries have an immigration population under 15% of the overall population in the countries with the largest immigration population. Which, too, I have to restate the populations of these countries are much smaller than that of the U.S. The second being the U.S. underwrites a large portion of the E.U.'s debt. So they too are spending the American taxpayer's money for their fabulous programs.

  23. #223
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    Their so-called 'contribution' to the economy is the demonstrable fact that they take jobs away from Americans. And don't hand me that tired 'jobs Americans won't do' nonsense. If the illegals didn't take them, someone would step forward, especially if they were hungry. There are still places, mostly rural, in this country where the work ethic is still strong.

    Illegals contribute nothing but problems.
    Oh no they aren't. They aren't taking away jobs, in fact they are contributing anywhere from $260-$300 billion to the US economy... this is actually helping the economy and creating more jobs. And yes they are doing jobs Americans wouldn't do. They also keep food costs down. Americans would demand higher wages to do those jobs.

    Contribute nothing but problems? The people creating problems are those sitting in wall street. Instead of blaming someone working a job an average American wouldn't want, maybe the right wingers on here should go after the corporate crooks who steal billions. Oh wait... they can't.

  24. #224
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by Durango95 View Post
    The first point is immigration laws in those countries are draconian compared to ours and are actually enforced.
    What? In Europe? I don't think so. Many of these countries have given amnesties multiple times, including Spain. Spain has a large population of Ecuadorian immigrants. Many are leaving now though because Spain's economy has fallen badly. France doesn't have tough immigration laws either.

    This is why these countries have an immigration population under 15% of the overall population in the countries with the largest immigration population. Which, too, I have to restate the populations of these countries are much smaller than that of the U.S. The second being the U.S. underwrites a large portion of the E.U.'s debt. So they too are spending the American taxpayer's money for their fabulous programs.
    Immigration population under 15%? The US was built on immigration. I'll restate that again... the US WAS BUILT ON IMMIGRATION. I don't see the reason for the fear of brown people on this forum. And the rest of that about the EU and US is just another unsupported claim. Thanks for that.

  25. #225
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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by Durango95 View Post
    I've heard the argument before about how fabulous benefits are elsewhere. There are two points I'd like to make concerning that. The first point is immigration laws in those countries are draconian compared to ours and are actually enforced. This is why these countries have an immigration population under 15% of the overall population in the countries with the largest immigration population. Which, too, I have to restate the populations of these countries are much smaller than that of the U.S. The second being the U.S. underwrites a large portion of the E.U.'s debt. So they too are spending the American taxpayer's money for their fabulous programs.
    I think what GiancarloC and I spent a page trying to point out to you and HenryReardon was that while it may be easier to get into the U.S. than into Canada or Sweden or countries with much more substantial social support systems in place, the U.S. economy is also far more dependant on the labor provided by immigrants as well. Any attempt to attack immigration by throwing around a figure about how much they 'cost' in terms of social services will be useless when it doesn't also examine their contribution to the economy and the level to which the jobs they perform realistically are not jobs native born Americans will consent to fill (not without tripling the wage at least) nor jobs native born Americans are realistically competing for. I'm sorry but I simply don't know anyone, ever, who was mad over losing an under the table 70 hour a week job in the kitchen of a restaurant with no overtime or benefits.

    Like I said in a previous post, doing what has been done so far in this thread, just throwing out the 'cost' of immigrants in a vaccuum, could be done just as much about native born Americans where, if you similarly do not examine their contribution to the economy, I'm sure the cost THEY incur in the form of social services absolutely dwarfs hispanic immigrant costs. Yet no one is here screaming that we should throw out every native born American because of the 'cost' they incur to society.

  26. #226
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    If we were to kick out undocumented immigrants all at once, a source I provided stated $2.6 trillion would disappear from the US economy over a period of 10 years. That's why some here are not looking at the bigger picture. Immigration is vital for America to function as a country, including those who are undocumented. If we were to suddenly lose $260 billion in the US economy this year we would slide deep into a recession. People toss around the cost of $112 billion, but that's debatable. $260 billion still is far more than $112 billion.

    http://www.americanprogress.org/issu...gration-today/

    $2.6 trillion—The amount of money that would evaporate from U.S. cumulative GDP over 10 years if all undocumented immigrants in the country were deported or “self-deport.”
    Native born Americans probably cost the US government more than undocumented workers who don't get hardly any benefits at all. People like to toss around faux outrage without looking at the facts.

  27. #227

    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    It is every hard to have a conversion with an ideologue. Ideologues operate solely on belief. A good analogy would be those on the ghost hunter programs. They invite "debate" or "discovery". When the results are a definitive no, they still say that they "believe" the place is haunted.

    It is a belief system and not one based on facts or law or anything other than a emotional belief in some abstract social paradigm.

  28. #228
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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by Durango95 View Post
    It is every hard to have a conversion with an ideologue. Ideologues operate solely on belief. A good analogy would be those on the ghost hunter programs. They invite "debate" or "discovery". When the results are a definitive no, they still say that they "believe" the place is haunted.

    It is a belief system and not one based on facts or law or anything other than a emotional belief in some abstract social paradigm.
    You fall back on this refrain everytime we actually respond to you with a very reasonable counterpoint.

    You aren't being screamed down by ideologues. I presented a very real, very logical problem with your position on why immigration is bad. And you fall back, yet again, and you do this sometimes 3 or 4 times within a single thread, to bemoaning how it's impossible to talk to us left wing think tank ideologues.

    It is not the fault of anyone else that you can't support your positions. If you can't then the problem is with your positions and how you come to them.

  29. #229
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by Durango95 View Post
    It is every hard to have a conversion with an ideologue. Ideologues operate solely on belief. A good analogy would be those on the ghost hunter programs. They invite "debate" or "discovery". When the results are a definitive no, they still say that they "believe" the place is haunted.

    It is a belief system and not one based on facts or law or anything other than a emotional belief in some abstract social paradigm.
    More deflections and more insults. I suggest reading the Code of Conduct. I've only posted facts to back up my argument. My argument is backed up by economics and numbers. I showed that undocumented immigrants contribute many times more to the US economy than they cost it. This isn't about watching ghost hunter shows or believing in that. This is about looking at the facts. OpInter even injected some thought into this discussion regarding certain "think tanks" tied to right wing extremists.

    And I haven't seen any evidence, links or facts supporting your argument in this thread. We do have certain standards here... people have asked for proof and none has been provided. Usually I tell myself if I want to make a statement, especially if it's bold and audacious, I'll have to come up with the goods to back it up. Not insult other posters and basically tell them they are similar to the gullible people who watch Ghost hunting programs.

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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    ... the US WAS BUILT ON IMMIGRATION. .
    That would be a true statement only if you insert the term 'legal' between on and immigration.

  31. #231
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    That would be a true statement only if you insert the term 'legal' between on and immigration.
    ERRRRRR WRONG.

    It was built on, undocumented and legal immigration alike. This is a fact if one were to look at history. For example, many Chinese immigrants were brought here without government knowledge (or possibly, the government turning a blind eye). The Chinese were responsible for building railroads in the west and that led to significant economic development in the region. Keep subscribing to the falsehoods!

    http://www.class.uh.edu/gl/china1.htm

    MAny of these immigrants were not documented. Many died in accidents. In on winter (1866), 3,000 workers alone worked on certain railroads digging tunnels... 1,200 died.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    Liberals ooperate exclusively on faith and belief. As such they are incapable of applying logic and/or reason to any problem.
    As compared to the faith and beliefs in the arguments presented? There is no logic in your arguments. I have applied logic, reason and facts. Where is yours? Haven't seen any lately.

    The right wing operates only on insults. When they fail miserably to make an argument, they switch to personal attacks.

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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    The slur for Italians is wops... it came from "w/o papers." Many Europeans (not just Italians) literally just showed up on a boat. This grandstanding about legal from people who very likely come from these same forebears is a little dishonest.

  33. #233

    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Ok I will say this again. The facts, statistics, figures provided are from sources with an agenda. When someone has an agenda driving the compiling of the data, then said compilation is free of objectivity. It is tantamount to asking the individual committing a crime if he is a bad person.

    I am not calling anyone names. I am just saying from the information on this forum and the way things are posted many on here could be determined to be ideologues.

    The reason we have such issue with this topic is there are those that come from a completely different concept. If you excuse criminal behavior without going through the proper channels then amnesty and the mass granting of citizenship if perfectly acceptable. There is the perceived political gain as well.

    You want studies, figures and charts. I am still searching for unbiased information. I as to date haven't found any. When you follow the money on the groups publishing data you then know the agenda. Agenda equals subjectivity.

    I am using simple critical thinking as to my stance. When you have millions of people which are low or no skill workers; all are significantly below the U.S. poverty rate thus having no disposable income; most are uneducated; many are in poor health; it is naive to believe there isn't a substantial outflow of taxpayer monies in the care and maintenance of these people.

    Pursuant to a statement made earlier, it doesn't make any difference how much money is supposedly poured into the U.S. economy by these people. They broke the law. Allowing a special circumstance for them sets a precedent.

    No one is saying to punish children. Most Americans would take exception to reconfiguring law to accommodate these people setting a precedent which will have a disastrous effect in the future.

  34. #234
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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    Oh Gos. I can't even believe that anyone quotes, let alone pays any attention to CIS. Or FAIR.

    But apparently P T Barnum was right.

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    In the end, numbers are numbers. One can still learn what he needs from statistics, polls and researches, provided he is aware of their method, context, and potential bias. Completely regardless of what the goal behind the research was.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  36. #236
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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by Durango95 View Post
    No other country in the world is as lax as is the U.S. with immigration policy, no one.
    Very true. If we adopted the same rules for Mexicans coming in illegally as Mexico has, they'd scream we were being barbaric.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  37. #237
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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by Durango95 View Post
    Ok I will say this again. The facts, statistics, figures provided are from sources with an agenda. When someone has an agenda driving the compiling of the data, then said compilation is free of objectivity. It is tantamount to asking the individual committing a crime if he is a bad person.

    I am not calling anyone names. I am just saying from the information on this forum and the way things are posted many on here could be determined to be ideologues.

    The reason we have such issue with this topic is there are those that come from a completely different concept. If you excuse criminal behavior without going through the proper channels then amnesty and the mass granting of citizenship if perfectly acceptable. There is the perceived political gain as well.

    You want studies, figures and charts. I am still searching for unbiased information. I as to date haven't found any. When you follow the money on the groups publishing data you then know the agenda. Agenda equals subjectivity.

    I am using simple critical thinking as to my stance. When you have millions of people which are low or no skill workers; all are significantly below the U.S. poverty rate thus having no disposable income; most are uneducated; many are in poor health; it is naive to believe there isn't a substantial outflow of taxpayer monies in the care and maintenance of these people.

    Pursuant to a statement made earlier, it doesn't make any difference how much money is supposedly poured into the U.S. economy by these people. They broke the law. Allowing a special circumstance for them sets a precedent.

    No one is saying to punish children. Most Americans would take exception to reconfiguring law to accommodate these people setting a precedent which will have a disastrous effect in the future.
    Durango, still searching for objective sources is fair enough. I don't think anyone would attack you for that.

    In the meanwhile though, can we agree that talking about the 'cost' to society of a given subset of people in terms of social service dollars they use, is not informative at all if it's not examined within the context of what they put into the economy? When it's applied only in the case of hispanic immigrants then the question is logically begged, why is no one screaming about the amount of social service dollars used by Asians in America, or whites in America for that matter?

  38. #238
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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    I wonder how many illegals own property and pay real estate taxes?
    Where do you suppose “illegals” reside?

    According to Randy Capps, a senior research fellow at the Urban Institute, “Undocumented immigrants pay the same real estate taxes-whether they own homes or taxes are passed through to rents-and the same sales and other consumption taxes as everyone else. The majority of state and local costs of schooling and other services are funded by these taxes.” The Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy, a nonpartisan think tank, has corroborated this point by declaring that, “Property taxes are hard to avoid, and unauthorized immigrants are assumed to pay the same property taxes as others with the same income level.” [Link]
    See also “Myth No. 1” in the following link:

    7 myths that cloud immigration debate (Darrel M. West)

  39. #239
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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    Where do you suppose “illegals” reside?



    See also “Myth No. 1” in the following link:

    7 myths that cloud immigration debate (Darrel M. West)
    The only statement that I would contest is the opinion poll. I would say it's pretty split that Americans favor kicking ILLEGAL immigrants out of the country.

    I will say, nearly every illegal I know rooms with a legal US citizen which is what makes the situation tricky.

  40. #240
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by Durango95 View Post
    Ok I will say this again. The facts, statistics, figures provided are from sources with an agenda. When someone has an agenda driving the compiling of the data, then said compilation is free of objectivity. It is tantamount to asking the individual committing a crime if he is a bad person.
    Nope there is no agenda. The sources I provided have corroboration, thus invalidating that. There is no agenda and not once have I seen one source for your argument. And your analogy is absolutely false.

    I am not calling anyone names. I am just saying from the information on this forum and the way things are posted many on here could be determined to be ideologues.
    Of course and there was already a warning given in this thread. There is nothing about being an ideologue in my respectable and objective sources I have provided (which are all corroborated).

    You want studies, figures and charts. I am still searching for unbiased information. I as to date haven't found any. When you follow the money on the groups publishing data you then know the agenda. Agenda equals subjectivity.
    There isn't any information to back up your argument as no such evidence exists. The argument is fundamentally flawed and inaccurate.

    I am using simple critical thinking as to my stance. When you have millions of people which are low or no skill workers; all are significantly below the U.S. poverty rate thus having no disposable income; most are uneducated; many are in poor health; it is naive to believe there isn't a substantial outflow of taxpayer monies in the care and maintenance of these people.
    It's easy to say "I'm using critical thinking" without actually demonstrating that. I have already provided strong proof as to why undocumented workers contribute anywhere from $260-$300 billion to the US economy per year. There is no agenda behind that number. Those figures are corroborated.

    Pursuant to a statement made earlier, it doesn't make any difference how much money is supposedly poured into the U.S. economy by these people. They broke the law. Allowing a special circumstance for them sets a precedent.
    Many were brought here when they were children. And it most certainly does make a difference. We must allow open borders or this nation will completely die and collapse.

    No one is saying to punish children. Most Americans would take exception to reconfiguring law to accommodate these people setting a precedent which will have a disastrous effect in the future.
    Of course there is a call for that. Keep using whatever fancy language one wants... it doesn't help the lack of an argument and absolutely no sources. I'm not going to be as forgiving as Xbuzzer... your argument hs absolutely no proof for it and are continued conjectures with fancy language. The moment we engage in the irrational isolationism that the right wing proposes is the moment this nation will crumble.

  41. #241
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    In the end, numbers are numbers. One can still learn what he needs from statistics, polls and researches, provided he is aware of their method, context, and potential bias. Completely regardless of what the goal behind the research was.
    I'll quote myself since nobody addressed this point, and I think it should be addressed.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  42. #242

    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    I stated my position on the issue. The OP was about Marco Rubio and his buying into this debacle of immigration "reform".

    Obviously I am not trying to change any minds here. I'm sure most everyone is strident in their beliefs.

    We do need immigration reform. That is certain. It doesn't need to be directed solely at one group of people.

    There are a lot of people on this forum that "will argue with a fencepost" as my grandmother used to say. It does become tiresome, though.

  43. #243
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by Durango95 View Post
    Obviously I am not trying to change any minds here. I'm sure most everyone is strident in their beliefs.
    Then stop insulting us and dismissing entire sources because there is disagreement.

    We do need immigration reform. That is certain. It doesn't need to be directed solely at one group of people.
    Sure we do, but what kind of immigration reform matters. Some here want to shut off the borders and so forth... that's not how things should ever work in this country. Some can't accept demographic changes either. Latinos will be the biggest group in this country in a few decades.

    There are a lot of people on this forum that "will argue with a fencepost" as my grandmother used to say. It does become tiresome, though.
    What becomes tiresome is stating the same old unsupported argument for the sake of it.

  44. #244
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by Durango95 View Post
    I stated my position on the issue. The OP was about Marco Rubio and his buying into this debacle of immigration "reform".

    Obviously I am not trying to change any minds here. I'm sure most everyone is strident in their beliefs.

    We do need immigration reform. That is certain. It doesn't need to be directed solely at one group of people.

    There are a lot of people on this forum that "will argue with a fencepost" as my grandmother used to say. It does become tiresome, though.
    As are your snide remarks that you use to cover for lack of arguments. And buzzer is right - you do it literally every time when you have nothing to further your stance.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  45. #245

    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    I get it. My opinion has little value for you.

    The thing you don't get is your opinion is equally as worthless to me.

  46. #246
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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Your opinion has little value to anyone here, because you fail at supporting it. If we're just going to be snotty at each other and tell each other how much we don't care for each other's opinion, we might as well not post at all. You are engaging in an argument, so it falls to you to support your opinions. When you fail to do it and try to mask it behind a "you're all idiots anyway" attitude, it makes you appear stupid and helpless. I am fairly confident that is NOT the desired effect, so maybe you should consider some different strategy for posting here.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  47. #247
    GiancarloC
    Guest

    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    An opinion can be considered with proper proof. The opinions espoused by several right wingers on here lacks any sort of proof and the links they do muster up have been thoroughly discredited. Durango, the failure to provide sources will not convince anyone nor will the condescending attitude.

  48. #248
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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by Durango95 View Post
    .

    We do need immigration reform. That is certain..
    Do we? Really? There are any number of laws already on the books, many of which have been there for a very long time.
    Why don't we do something radical, like rigorously enforcing the laws we already have. If that doesn't work, then, and only then, should we try another approach.

  49. #249
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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by Durango95 View Post
    I get it. My opinion has little value for you.

    The thing you don't get is your opinion is equally as worthless to me.
    I will reiterate what I said before: my problem was the basis upon which you were justifying your opinion. If you stated only the raw figure of "social service dollars used" with no examination of economic contribution of *any* group in the U.S. besides hispanics, you could equally make just as valid a case that they're a drain and should be kicked out.

    That was my problem with your opinion.

  50. #250

    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    OMG

    There are those that are STILL trying to assert that their opinion has merit.

    You've really got to get this guys...IT DOES NOT HAVE ANY MERIT BEYOND YOU....NONE.

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