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  1. #51

    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by palemale View Post
    If you were to substitute Catholic, Jewish, Irish, Italian, for Hispanic or Latino, our right-wing JUB posters would have fit right in with the KKK of the 1920s. They seem to forget that vehemence of the anti-Catholic and anti-Jewish hatred for immigrants of the last century.
    I suggest you try to separate your hatred for Republicans for a moment, and try to consider the effects today of immigration. We will never again have the world-dominating and expanding economy that we did as late as WWI. We have competition from all over the world and will never again be able to create new, good paying, jobs as rapidly as we did before. Your reliance on the good old days when we could absorb masses of new workers is just bad logic. Times have changed.
    And please remember the effect which all that immigration, you described, had on African Americans. While the new people got jobs, the blacks have not climbed the ladder. Immigration and discrimination have gone hand in hand, and are continuing to do so today.
    Instead of focusing on how bad conservatives are, please answer the question, how can we make progress against poverty and unemployment if we continue to have a massive influx of new poverty?

  2. #52
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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    I suggest you try to separate your hatred for Republicans for a moment, and try to consider the effects today of immigration. We will never again have the world-dominating and expanding economy that we did as late as WWI. We have competition from all over the world and will never again be able to create new, good paying, jobs as rapidly as we did before. Your reliance on the good old days when we could absorb masses of new workers is just bad logic. Times have changed.
    I'm glad to see that you're finally recognizing that the wild Eyed Liberal Republican known as Dwight D. Eisenhower is no longer our Nation's President!

    Baby steps.

    And please remember the effect which all that immigration, you described, had on African Americans. While the new people got jobs, the blacks have not climbed the ladder. Immigration and discrimination have gone hand in hand, and are continuing to do so today.
    But squashing Union Labor from the right doesn't play into your scenario/narrative WHY?"

    Instead of focusing on how bad conservatives are, please answer the question, how can we make progress against poverty and unemployment if we continue to have a massive influx of new poverty?
    Or better yet, how about you answering the question:

    "Why should anyone answer your straw man question when it's clear that you and so called "conservatives" don't really give a shit about an honest answer?
    It's called "credibility."

    Which, if you have any, must admit is lacking.

    Last edited by CTF; February 2nd, 2013 at 07:25 AM.
    Never regret anything, because in that moment it's exactly what you wanted.

  3. #53
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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Most immigrant reform efforts contain some attempt to limit illegal immigration. I don't think Republicans want more immigrant. But alas, we have passed the tipping point. We have so many voters of recent immigration, who want more immigration by their ethnic group, that any politician who votes against immigration is likely to loose. In the last election the Hispanic vote was overwhelmingly Democrat and Hispanics seem to want, not only "reform"--a quick road to citizenship-- but more influx of Hispanics. You can hear the result in the public discussion by Republicans: how can we survive as a party if we do not join in pandering to the Hispanics. How can I survive as a politician if I do not?
    By labeling as racist and xenophobic any one who questions it, the liberals have foreclosed discussion of the broader questions, including poverty and unemployment. How can we every overcome poverty and unemployment when we are faced with a virtually unlimited influx of more poverty?
    Somebody apparently didn't explain to Benvolio that in order to vote in this country you need to have citizenship, and if you are a citizen you are someone to whom politicians need to pander in order to get votes. In fact I think someone failed to explain this to the entire GOP, given their disconnect as to why they're losing elections and why they're massively losing the hispanic vote when they platform heavily on making life for illegals and immigrants, which they virtually equate with being hispanic, as miserable possible so that they'll stop coming or leave voluntarily.

  4. #54

    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    I suggest you try to separate your hatred for Republicans for a moment, and try to consider the effects today of immigration. We will never again have the world-dominating and expanding economy that we did as late as WWI. We have competition from all over the world and will never again be able to create new, good paying, jobs as rapidly as we did before. Your reliance on the good old days when we could absorb masses of new workers is just bad logic. Times have changed.
    And please remember the effect which all that immigration, you described, had on African Americans. While the new people got jobs, the blacks have not climbed the ladder. Immigration and discrimination have gone hand in hand, and are continuing to do so today.
    Instead of focusing on how bad conservatives are, please answer the question, how can we make progress against poverty and unemployment if we continue to have a massive influx of new poverty?
    This isn't about hating Republicans. My point is that what animates the anti-immigrant forces today is the same thing that animated the anti-immigrant forces in the late 19th and the 20th Century, right up to the election of JFK. Back then, it was the fear that Catholic and Jewish immigration would dilute and ruin the white, protestant culture of the United States. Today, the anti-immigrant forces believe that largely non-white immigrants will dilute and ruin the white protestant culture. In post 24, I printed what purports to be a Tea Party manifesto. In fact, it was an excerpt from the "Klansman's Manual" from 1925, but substituting "Tea Party" for "Ku Klux Klan." The original is as follows:

    The Knights of the Ku Klux Klan is a movement devoting itself to the needed task of developing a genuine spirit of American patriotism. Klansmen are to be examples of pure patriotism. They are to organize the patriotic sentiment of native-born white, Protestant Americans for the defense of distinctively American institutions. Klansmen are dedicated to the principle that America shall be made American through the promulgation of American doctrines, the dissemination of American ideals, the creation of wholesome American sentiment, the preservation of American institutions.
    http://ehistory.osu.edu/osu/mmh/clas...klanmanual.htm

    You can see how if you substitute "Tea Party" for "Ku Klux Klan," and remove the reference to white Protestants, as I did, it would fit nicely into a Tea Party manifesto.

    You should also be aware that organized labor for years opposed immigration, especially illegal immigration. However, corporate America loved it because it did in fact depress wages. The problem for organized labor is that it was extremely difficult to organize work places with large numbers of undocumented workers. These workers were afraid of deportation. Because penalties for employing undocumented workers was so week, to non-existent, it was a common occurrence for an employer to call INS himself if he was facing a National Labor Relations Board election for representation, had a lot of undocumented workers and feared the union was going to win the election. Many of the workers get deported or simply leave and don't show up for work, people are intimidated, and the effort to unionize is thwarted.

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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    By labeling as racist and xenophobic any one who questions it, the liberals have foreclosed discussion of the broader questions, including poverty and unemployment. How can we every overcome poverty and unemployment when we are faced with a virtually unlimited influx of more poverty?
    Notice how in any political discussion its always Democrats who bring up race? And this whole idea that a politician has to run on an immigration-friendly platform in order to win votes from Hispanics is pretty ridiculous. I'm Hispanic and I don't give two fucks about the nation's current immigration reform proposals. It doesn't affect anyone in my family. In fact, as far as I'm concerned, the government can go ahead and evict/deport every single last one of the illegals.

    It's like you said on the first page:
    The reason the Democrats want immigration "reform" is that they want to rush illegals to voting status to join the class/race war and vote Democrat. Their idea of Democracy is that if the American people don't want the party's socialist agenda, flood the country with poor immigrants who will vote socialist.

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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by JustMe5 View Post
    Notice how in any political discussion its always Democrats who bring up race? And this whole idea that a politician has to run on an immigration-friendly platform in order to win votes from Hispanics is pretty ridiculous. I'm Hispanic and I don't give two fucks about the nation's current immigration reform proposals. It doesn't affect anyone in my family. In fact, as far as I'm concerned, the government can go ahead and evict/deport every single last one of the illegals.

    It's like you said on the first page:
    Who employs illegal immigrant labor and reaps a financial benefit from having undocumented workers they aren't paying payroll taxes on, JustMe5?

    I'll give you a hint. In general it's not Democrats.

    But yeah, I'm sure a DNC recruiter going down to Mexico or elsewhere in Latin America and telling people to come up just to help us hedge the vote for Democrats is the main reason they're coming.

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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Um, who is bringing up race? Immigration is an issue in this country and the process needs to be streamlined. And I understand some don't give a fuck. I don't care for Hispanic republicans either honestly (about as much as I care about gay republicans). And evict and deporting a bunch of people simply doesn't fly and doesn't work.

    I guess the facts just get disregarded for those on the right as they rely on strawman arguments.
    What's far more interesting to me than the weak-kneed implication that "Democrats always bring up race" is that when discussing the Hispanic vote Republicans constantly bring up "illegals." People who incidentally can't vote. So yeah Republicans-- keep kidding yourself that the reason you're losing elections is because Democrats purportedly hand out free toys to illegals, who can't vote, in order to win the election. Keep that mindset till 2016. I won't complain.

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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Who employs illegal immigrant labor and reaps a financial benefit from having undocumented workers they aren't paying payroll taxes on, JustMe5?

    I'll give you a hint. In general it's not Democrats.
    Typical Democrat talking point. What proof is there of that??? Y'all need new material.

  9. #59
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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by JustMe5 View Post
    Typical Democrat talking point. What proof is there of that??? Y'all need new material.
    Wool. Eyes.

    Check out George W Bush approving the Chamber of Commerce's request that the government stop doing checks on social security numbers in employment documents.

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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    the American citizens already here support the democrats in large numbers over Republicans. One fact that must be noted is republican party membership has been in steady decline and has dropped below 30%.
    And another fact that needs to be noted is Obama's vote tally in last year's election was far less (numbering in the millions) than his tally in 2008. First time ever that a president got reelected with less votes. Who was the real loser in this election?

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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by JustMe5 View Post
    And another fact that needs to be noted is Obama's vote tally in last year's election was far less (numbering in the millions) than his tally in 2008. First time ever that a president got reelected with less votes. Who was the real loser in this election?
    It was 8 or 9 million less votes. I've read that 17 million people watched his first inauguration, and that number was down to 7 million or his second. Sound like a lot of people are more than a little bit disenchanted with their messiah.

    Romney got 2 million or so less votes than McCain which is hardly surprising.

    The Republican party doesn't stand for anything, and the Libertarians don't have a chance. Hopefully, the Tea Party will come back strong in 2014 and send some people to DC who will stop Obama's insane drive to radicalize America.

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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Oh, are we back on an election debate now? "Well, ... yeah he WON but .... NOT BY AS MUCH AS HE SHOULD HAVE! He fails all the time!"



    Guys get a grip. Please. Turning every single thread into an election debate about how much Obama failed in winnin re-election is a tired, tired, tired topic you guys need to retire, along with Benghazi and Sarah Palin. Didn't one of you have the balls to say Democrats need some new material? You guys need to try some fruit other than grapes.

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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Obama's tally wasn't that much less. And even if that was much less, that should be concerning for republicans. Because he still won. I know it's tough to face the reality. The real loser were the two rich white guys funded by two other rich white guys. Obama won a large enough margin. The fact that republicans can barely get 60 million votes should be worrying for any republican. Including the walking contradiction GOPRouders on here.
    Please. And you question who's bringing up race? Just take a look at your own post. Also, winning with less votes is a sign that someone's support has DROPPED. The hope, the change, the dreams from his father, and the prospect of going "forward" wasn't enough to convince more people to vote for Obama this time around. Yet you wanna imply that that half-assed win sounded the death knell for the GOP?

  14. #64
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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by JustMe5 View Post
    Please. And you question who's bringing up race? Just take a look at your own post. Also, winning with less votes is a sign that someone's support has DROPPED. The hope, the change, the dreams from his father, and the prospect of going "forward" wasn't enough to convince more people to vote for Obama this time around. Yet you wanna imply that that half-assed win sounded the death knell for the GOP?
    This thread is about immigration reform.

    Of course race is going to come up. Welcome to the topic. Stop making up faux outrages as an excuse to not be on point.

  15. #65

    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by JustMe5 View Post
    And another fact that needs to be noted is Obama's vote tally in last year's election was far less (numbering in the millions) than his tally in 2008. First time ever that a president got reelected with less votes. Who was the real loser in this election?
    FDR was re-elected with fewer votes in 1944 than he won in 1940.

  16. #66
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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by palemale View Post
    FDR was re-elected with fewer votes in 1944 than he won in 1940.
    Thank you.

    I was going to bring this to the poster's attention.

    Nice attempted diversion though......

    Another one who is going to have a lonely and bitter 4 years ahead.

    And the real losers in this election were the American voters who gave the Democrats in the House one million more votes than the Republicans but are sitting out here watching the Republicans with a 33 seat majority.
    Last edited by rareboy; February 2nd, 2013 at 04:03 PM.

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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Palemale. Rareboy. Giancarlo. Thinking a hard fact changes minds around here. Tsk tsk.

  18. #68

    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    Close the border as tightly as possible. Send the National Guard to the borders. Authorize them to shoot to kill.
    Problem solves.

    Oh, or we could simply start enforcing existing laws. What a novel idea.
    Advocating murder. Brilliant.

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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    Send the National Guard to the borders. Authorize them to shoot to kill.
    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    As for shoot to kill, why not? If someone is breaking into your house, you are within your rights in shooting them.
    Breaking into your country is no different.
    I think your analogy is incorrect. A person entering the country without permission is more akin to someone walking in your yard without permission – and in that scenario, the intruder is trespassing. In my state, if I ask an intruder to exit my property and they fail to do so, the violation is criminal trespass. Rather than seek to kill them, the proper response is to summon law enforcement officers to forcibly remove them. Unless the intruder is placing me or someone else in obvious mortal peril, I am not within my rights to harm him/her.

    It is also important to recognize that there are exceptions to your right to inflict harm upon a person who is attempting to break into your house. For example, the person may be fleeing from a danger that justifies their entry into your home – and that can even include such things as inclement weather.

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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Most immigrant reform efforts contain some attempt to limit illegal immigration. I don't think Republicans want more immigrant. But alas, we have passed the tipping point. We have so many voters of recent immigration, who want more immigration by their ethnic group, that any politician who votes against immigration is likely to loose. In the last election the Hispanic vote was overwhelmingly Democrat and Hispanics seem to want, not only "reform"--a quick road to citizenship-- but more influx of Hispanics. You can hear the result in the public discussion by Republicans: how can we survive as a party if we do not join in pandering to the Hispanics. How can I survive as a politician if I do not?
    By labeling as racist and xenophobic any one who questions it, the liberals have foreclosed discussion of the broader questions, including poverty and unemployment. How can we every overcome poverty and unemployment when we are faced with a virtually unlimited influx of more poverty?
    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    I suggest you try to separate your hatred for Republicans for a moment, and try to consider the effects today of immigration. We will never again have the world-dominating and expanding economy that we did as late as WWI. We have competition from all over the world and will never again be able to create new, good paying, jobs as rapidly as we did before. Your reliance on the good old days when we could absorb masses of new workers is just bad logic. Times have changed.
    And please remember the effect which all that immigration, you described, had on African Americans. While the new people got jobs, the blacks have not climbed the ladder. Immigration and discrimination have gone hand in hand, and are continuing to do so today.
    Instead of focusing on how bad conservatives are, please answer the question, how can we make progress against poverty and unemployment if we continue to have a massive influx of new poverty?
    Please verify that I am properly interpreting the viewpoints you have presented by affirming or offering corrections to the following points I have derived from the two posts quoted above.

    • Recent immigrants vote to favor policies that allow more immigration by their own ethnic group.

    • Democrats seem to want more Hispanic immigration.

    • The broader questions about immigration include poverty and unemployment.

    • Immigration prevents African Americans from advancing, progressing, and/or succeeding in society or employment.

    • Immigration encourages discrimination.

  21. #71

    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    [QUOTE=opinterph;8681245]Please verify that I am properly interpreting the viewpoints you have presented by affirming or offering corrections to the following points I have derived from the two posts quoted above.

    [LIST][*]
    I believe those statements are true with these qualifications.
    Democrats want continued large scale immigration, including Hispanics and preferring non-whites. Immigrants tend to vote Democrat.
    Historically, and continuing today, immigration has facilitated discrimination against African Americans. Since 1865, the US economy expanded incredibly, creating millions of jobs, but that expansion did little to benefit blacks, because of discrimination, because the massive immigration provided whites to take the jobs. It continues in a different form. Legal immigrants are entitled to the benefit of anti-discrimination laws and it is illegal to discriminate against them, because they are immigrants, in favor of Americans, including blacks. They qualify for affirmative action programs designed to help blacks. The massive immigration of people willing to work for the lowest salaries, has kept wages low and discouraged some Americans, including young blacks from entering the labor market. They don't want jobs at such low incomes, and and the incomes are low because there are many people willing to work at that level.
    [/LI

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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Please verify that I am properly interpreting the viewpoints you have presented by affirming or offering corrections to the following points I have derived from the two posts quoted above.

    [LIST][*]
    I believe those statements are true with these qualifications.
    Democrats want continued large scale immigration, including Hispanics and preferring non-whites. Immigrants tend to vote Democrat.
    Historically, and continuing today, immigration has facilitated discrimination against African Americans. Since 1865, the US economy expanded incredibly, creating millions of jobs, but that expansion did little to benefit blacks, because of discrimination, because the massive immigration provided whites to take the jobs. It continues in a different form. Legal immigrants are entitled to the benefit of anti-discrimination laws and it is illegal to discriminate against them, because they are immigrants, in favor of Americans, including blacks. They qualify for affirmative action programs designed to help blacks. The massive immigration of people willing to work for the lowest salaries, has kept wages low and discouraged some Americans, including young blacks from entering the labor market. They don't want jobs at such low incomes, and and the incomes are low because there are many people willing to work at that level.
    [/LI


    We must remember that immigration is part of a vast left-wing conspiracy designed to fuck over Republicons. Actually, there were illegal aliens inside the statue. There is no end to their treachery.

    What would Buddah do?

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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    I love how the "....... WHAT?! The hispanics went for the libs?!" rude awakening that the Republicans had in November of 2012 has now been historically rewritten into: the Democrats have been facilitating and striving to enable illegal immigration all along as part of a vast plot to hedge Democratic votes.

    Nevermind who was hiring illegal immigrants and providing the incentive for them to move, nevermind which party has traditionally made the most saber rattling while doing the least of substance to actually catch the employment of illegal immigrants, nevermind which industries rely on illegal labor the most and which party they donate campaign dollars to, and nevermind the fact that no illegal immigrant can vote. So any immigrants in discussion here either came here legally or have been here for a significant period of time and acquired citizenship through natural birth or naturalization.

    Even if we accept a premise of "immigrants vote Democrat and so Democrats want immigrants in", and we view immigration strictly through the narrow little reptile eye lens of "which party benefits from immigrant votes", we don't have Democrats to thank for what happened in 2012, we have decades of free market deregulation Republicans who were always happy to incentivize immigration to the U.S. through the mass hiring of immigrant no-benefit low-wage labor for agribusiness, shipping and distribution, retail and a million other jobs-- all the while claiming they hated immigrants and that everyone should speak English.

  24. #74

    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Democrats just cannot face the fact that their hypocritical promotion of immigration is a disaster for those they pretend to care about, the poor and unemployed.

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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Democrats just cannot face the fact that their hypocritical promotion of immigration is a disaster for those they pretend to care about, the poor and unemployed.
    And you apparently can't face the intellectual dishonesty of this statement from someone who'd as happy dismantle all support network for the poor and unemployed.

  26. #76

    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    And you apparently can't face the intellectual dishonesty of this statement from someone who'd as happy dismantle all support network for the poor and unemployed.
    It is hard to support the poor and unemployed when they flood into the country by the millions, and any support provides an incentive for more to come.

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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    It is hard to support the poor and unemployed when they flood into the country by the millions, and any support provides an incentive for more to come.
    Yeah, that sounds kinda dumb...
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    It is hard to support the poor and unemployed when they flood into the country by the millions, and any support provides an incentive for more to come.
    You're just repeating horse manure from people like Rush Limbaugh. Illegal immigrants can't get welfare and they can't vote.

  29. #79

    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    It appears that you are unwilling to acknowledge that Republicans want immigration reform. Instead you have introduced an alternate theme – limiting illegal immigration.

    How should the US go about limiting illegal immigration?
    We should do what it takes to keep large numbers from coming. No, not killing them but stopping them. A basic purpose of government is to protect its people from invasion, article I V, sec 4 of the Constitution provides: "The United States shall guarantee to every state in this union a Republican [Democratic] form of government, and shall protect each of the against Invasion.."
    No, really, it does say that. Look it up.
    The Democrats violate both requirements. By allowing and encouraging the invasion they can destroy the Democracy by swamping the states with foreigners who will reliably vote Democrat to impose high taxes on Americans to provide freebies to the invaders.
    It is happening before our eyes.

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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    There is no invasion. There wasn't one in the 1910s when Italians came here in droves (many of which came here as undocumented and the only documentation that exists are ship ledgers). The falsehoods of the right wing reactionary argument continue. Yes, one can look it up and see there is no invasion. The democrats didn't violate anything. Stop distorting the Constitution. I know republicans love to distort the constitution a lot.

    Foreigners aren't invading America. They are coming here to work in jobs some republicans would never want... and are contributing to this country. I was born in a different country, and I find this as a personal affront. The racism and xenophobia on this forum by the right wingers is evident.
    Yup.

    At the height of the Irish/Italian immigration period, there were more foreign-born people in the U.S. as a percentage of the population than today. There is no 'invasion.' Anymore than there's an 'invasion' of the UK by Muslims or Asians or any of the rest of this alarmist, nativist, reactionary rhetoric that's literally been around for millenia.

    In college I had a professor put a transparency up on the screen as we came in. It was a quote talking about how "we're being invaded by hordes of immigrants who have totally different language and customs, do not adopt ours, harm our civilization and are nothing at all like the previous immigrants who worked hard and contributed." The professor asked everyone to guess what the quote was talking about, and everyone, naturally, thought it was about hispanic immigration.

    She revealed the rest of the transparency and it was a Roman Emperor talking about Britons.

    None of this shit is anything new.

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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    It is hard to support the poor and unemployed when they flood into the country by the millions, and any support provides an incentive for more to come.

  32. #82

    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    You're just repeating horse manure from people like Rush Limbaugh. Illegal immigrants can't get welfare and they can't vote.
    They do get welfare, including food stamps, health service at emergency rooms etc. That and the vote is what Obama's "reform" is all about. Rush illegals to citizenship and allow/encourage more to come.

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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    They do get welfare, including food stamps, health service at emergency rooms etc. That and the vote is what Obama's "reform" is all about. Rush illegals to citizenship and allow/encourage more to come.
    Then you can thank your party for making our victories possible since they've done far more to enable and incentivize illegal immigration than anyone else.

  34. #84

    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Yup.

    At the height of the Irish/Italian immigration period, there were more foreign-born people in the U.S. as a percentage of the population than today. There is no 'invasion.' Anymore than there's an 'invasion' of the UK by Muslims or Asians or any of the rest of this alarmist, nativist, reactionary rhetoric that's literally been around for millenia.

    In college I had a professor put a transparency up on the screen as we came in. It was a quote talking about how "we're being invaded by hordes of immigrants who have totally different language and customs, do not adopt ours, harm our civilization and are nothing at all like the previous immigrants who worked hard and contributed." The professor asked everyone to guess what the quote was talking about, and everyone, naturally, thought it was about hispanic immigration.

    She revealed the rest of the transparency and it was a Roman Emperor talking about Britons.

    None of this shit is anything new.
    So, how has the Roman Empire done since the Emperor said that? You persist in ignoring the effect which immigrants have on our existing poor and unemployed.

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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    So, how has the Roman Empire done since the Emperor said that?
    Here we go with the "we're like modern day Rome" crap.

    Rome fell from the inside and it had nothing to do with immigrants. It had to do with heavily concentrated corrupt oligarchy which had lost all touch with reality. You know, the place that Mitt Romney wanted to take us.

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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    It is hard to support the poor and unemployed when they flood into the country by the millions, and any support provides an incentive for more to come.
    Yeah, because if not for those filthy Immuh-Grunts, there would be no poor or unemployed people in this country...not at all. Yup.
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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Benvolio, how will you feel when Marco Rubio potentially becomes the Republican 2016 presidential nominee?
    #439th oldest member on JUB.

  38. #88

    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by Just_Believe18 View Post
    Benvolio, how will you feel when Marco Rubio potentially becomes the Republican 2016 presidential nominee?
    It will be the final proof that we have gone past the tipping point, the point of no return.

  39. #89

    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by frankfrank View Post
    Yeah, because if not for those filthy Immuh-Grunts, there would be no poor or unemployed people in this country...not at all. Yup.
    Without massive immigration, we could have solved poverty decades ago. With immigration we never can. Every year there will be another million or two. Any progress against poverty, however unlikely, will only encourage more to come.

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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Without massive immigration, we could have solved poverty decades ago. With immigration we never can. Every year there will be another million or two. Any progress against poverty, however unlikely, will only encourage more to come.
    Please, pass me some of whatever you are smoking. Immigration has always been wanted and encouraged as a way to help KEEP wages down, and has always been selectively preferred for by big industries that use a lot of unskilled labor for exactly that purpose. Go back 100, 150 years and this SAME discussion was going on about the Chinese, the Irish and the Italians. Stopping any of them from coming in would not have eliminated poverty. Dream the feck on.

  41. #91

    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Please, pass me some of whatever you are smoking. Immigration has always been wanted and encouraged as a way to help KEEP wages down, and has always been selectively preferred for by big industries that use a lot of unskilled labor for exactly that purpose. Go back 100, 150 years and this SAME discussion was going on about the Chinese, the Irish and the Italians. Stopping any of them from coming in would not have eliminated poverty. Dream the feck on.
    So you agree that immigration keeps wages down. We are making progress, albeit slowly..

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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    So you agree that immigration keeps wages down. We are making progress, albeit slowly..
    Incorrect. The fact that industry that uses unskilled labor hires it instead of paying enough of a dignified wage that people with ANY better option will actually take that job is what's relevant.

    Americans WON'T go out and pick fruit or harvest crops for 70 hours a week, or put the same hours into the back of a kitchen, for minimum wage (or less) with zero benefits. Immigrants by and large are not doing jobs Americans will consent to do for the wages big business insists is all the more they can pay for it. Immigrants fill a critical gap in the workforce that wouldn't be there if living decent wages for very difficult work was actually paid.

    Place blame where it's due.

    If Americans did these jobs, even for a WEEK, even if you could force or convince enough hard-up Americans to do it, unions would spring all the hell up all over this country overnight. You can guarantee it. And we know how you feel about unions-- and how the REpublicans and conservatives in general feel about them. So stop talking out of both sides of your mouth and actually say something that makes the slightest bit of sense.

  43. #93

    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    The reason the jobs pay so little is because floods of immigrant will take the jobs. Without the immigrants, employers would have to pay more. Not to long ago Americans were construction workers, carpenters, roofers, taxi drivers, etc. Now immigrants do that work for low wages and we have untold millions of unemployed Americans.

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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    The reason the jobs pay so little is because floods of immigrant will take the jobs. Without the immigrants, employers would have to pay more. Not to long ago Americans were construction workers, carpenters, roofers, taxi drivers, etc. Now immigrants do that work for low wages and we have untold millions of unemployed Americans.
    They would slowly be forced to pay more, as workers formed unions and demanded it, and voted Democrat. Also as a result business costs and the end pricepoint of goods and services would go up--- something you'd no doubt blame on the unions and Democrats and be very much against.

    So your whole little "Democrats want the immigrants coming in to bolster their votes" thing is sorta unravelling here.

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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Gosh, it sure would be nice if someone backed up their racist bullshit with actual facts instead of repeating the same tired xenophobic crap over and over...

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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    It will be the final proof that we have gone past the tipping point, the point of no return.
    But will you still vote for him over the white Democrat presidential candidate?
    #439th oldest member on JUB.

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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    • Democrats seem to want more Hispanic immigration.
    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Democrats want continued large scale immigration, including Hispanics and preferring non-whites. Immigrants tend to vote Democrat.
    I question your use of the term “continued large scale immigration.” Though more than a million persons obtain legal permanent resident status in the US each year – that represents an annual increase of only about one-third of one percent of our total population. I also note that no particular source country is particularly overrepresented in the total. [DHS]

    It seems to me that you may be engulfed in a fear that is based on the perception of a crisis that doesn’t exist.

    You have mentioned a “tipping point” and I sense you intend that term primarily to imply that the inclusion of new citizens from other countries affects voting outcomes in the US. The basic thesis being that allowing new citizens to vote changes the dynamics of predictability in such a way as to increase the likelihood that newly elected politicians may sponsor a more favorable view toward immigrants than in times past.

    With respect to the effect of those voting outcomes on the Republican Party, I think a better term is catch-22. After years of denigrating immigrants and using their presence as a wedge issue in order to motivate the base of their Party and thereby win elections, the Party must now face the reality of change. The fact that immigrants may be more likely to vote for candidates of the Democratic Party probably relates more to the history of their experience than any scurrilous intention they foster toward one party or the other. The catch-22 for Republicans is that they cannot expect to again reject immigration reform, without further alienating their appeal to Hispanic (and other minority) voters. And yet, if the millions of undocumented residents are somehow afforded an eventual path to citizenship, there is no logical reason to expect them to subsequently embrace the Republican Party. So while the citizen Hispanic vote continues to grow as a percentage of the whole, the inclusion of what are now undocumented Hispanics carries the likelihood of merely accelerating the disparity of support they demonstrate between the parties in national and some state elections. It is quickly becoming a no win situation for the Republicans and should remind them that short-term goals to win elections should take into account longer-term realities.

    This is nothing new.

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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    • The broader questions about immigration include poverty and unemployment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Historically, and continuing today, immigration has facilitated discrimination against African Americans. Since 1865, the US economy expanded incredibly, creating millions of jobs, but that expansion did little to benefit blacks, because of discrimination, because the massive immigration provided whites to take the jobs.
    I applaud your concern for Black Americans and hope you will continue to use your activism to promote policies and objectives that provide help or offer remedies for the obstacles many African Americans face in their effort to fully participate and share in the bounty of our society.

    While it is true that new immigrants to the US are more likely to experience poverty than native-born citizens, it is my impression that their assimilation does not result in any remarkable or enduring change to overall poverty levels in the US. Accordingly, I encourage you to provide a credible source that shares or promotes a viewpoint similar to your suggestion that immigration has a profound or notable effect on poverty in the US.

  49. #99

    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    I question your use of the term “continued large scale immigration.” Though more than a million persons obtain legal permanent resident status in the US each year – that represents an annual increase of only about one-third of one percent of our total population. I also note that no particular source country is particularly overrepresented in the total. [DHS]

    It seems to me that you may be engulfed in a fear that is based on the perception of a crisis that doesn’t exist.

    You have mentioned a “tipping point” and I sense you intend that term primarily to imply that the inclusion of new citizens from other countries affects voting outcomes in the US. The basic thesis being that allowing new citizens to vote changes the dynamics of predictability in such a way as to increase the likelihood that newly elected politicians may sponsor a more favorable view toward immigrants than in times past.

    With respect to the effect of those voting outcomes on the Republican Party, I think a better term is catch-22. After years of denigrating immigrants and using their presence as a wedge issue in order to motivate the base of their Party and thereby win elections, the Party must now face the reality of change. The fact that immigrants may be more likely to vote for candidates of the Democratic Party probably relates more to the history of their experience than any scurrilous intention they foster toward one party or the other. The catch-22 for Republicans is that they cannot expect to again reject immigration reform, without further alienating their appeal to Hispanic (and other minority) voters. And yet, if the millions of undocumented residents are somehow afforded an eventual path to citizenship, there is no logical reason to expect them to subsequently embrace the Republican Party. So while the citizen Hispanic vote continues to grow as a percentage of the whole, the inclusion of what are now undocumented Hispanics carries the likelihood of merely accelerating the disparity of support they demonstrate between the parties in national and some state elections. It is quickly becoming a no win situation for the Republicans and should remind them that short-term goals to win elections should take into account longer-term realities.

    This is nothing new.
    NO, my tipping point is not Democrat vs Republican. We have passed the point that any politician who attempts to limit immigration will likely lose. We have lost our ability to limit it. With it we lose our ability to make progress against poverty.
    With it we have lost our ability to preserve a free enterprise economy. Immigrants being poor are amenable to class/race warfare and socialism and the last election demonstrated the acceleration of that warfare.
    I am not allowed to speak of the damage to the culture which made us a great nation.

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    Re: Ann Coulter Rips Marco Rubio Over Inmigration Reform.

    That culture would be the culture of slavery, segregation and xenophobia, yes?
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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