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    Re: Islamic Rebels Burn Medieval Manuscript Library

    That is religious extremism for you. When you break down social structure and rely solely on religion to guide your sense of morality and governance on others, this is what you get. Islam is living in the Dark Ages. I hope Muslim nations can come out of this purgatory and join the rest of us in civilization.
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    Re: Islamic Rebels Burn Medieval Manuscript Library

    This really makes me mad. I know it 'shouldn't' make me more mad when people burn irreplaceable historical books and documents than when they kill people, but it really does. That's not just something like petty murder, it's like assault on human consciousness and shared human history.

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    Re: Islamic Rebels Burn Medieval Manuscript Library

    Quote Originally Posted by Just_Believe18 View Post
    That is religious extremism for you. When you break down social structure and rely solely on religion to guide your sense of morality and governance on others, this is what you get. Islam is living in the Dark Ages. I hope Muslim nations can come out of this purgatory and join the rest of us in civilization.
    Religion isn't the only thing that could whitewash history. Many Asian countries during their "reformations" in the 20th Century altered much of their histories. Hell, the Chinese still refuse to acknowledge Tibet as part of their country.

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    Re: Islamic Rebels Burn Medieval Manuscript Library

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    This really makes me mad. I know it 'shouldn't' make me more mad when people burn irreplaceable historical books and documents than when they kill people, but it really does. That's not just something like petty murder, it's like assault on human consciousness and shared human history.
    I know how you feel, it angered me too when I heard about this on the news just now. This is the face of the disgusting plague on our world that is 'modern' radical Islam. A literal destroyer of history, of culture, of music, of art, of human experience. And the torturer and executioner of those who don't obey them.

    It must be fought, and it must never be appeased.

  5. #5

    Re: Islamic Rebels Burn Medieval Manuscript Library

    Quote Originally Posted by Just_Believe18 View Post
    That is religious extremism for you. When you break down social structure and rely solely on religion to guide your sense of morality and governance on others, this is what you get. Islam is living in the Dark Ages. I hope Muslim nations can come out of this purgatory and join the rest of us in civilization.
    That is MUSLIM EXTREMIST. Get your story straight.

    Our current President can't even use the phase "muslim terrorist" or "muslim extremist".

    This is not new. The taliban did similar things in Afghanistan and radical Muslims have threatened to do destroy ancient historical sites in Egypt.

  6. #6

    Re: Islamic Rebels Burn Medieval Manuscript Library

    It pisses me off to see extremists destroy antique treasures.

    Nazis did it too.

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    Re: Islamic Rebels Burn Medieval Manuscript Library

    Small minds with infantile responses.

    I've held in my hands rare ancient texts from several religions, some of them dead. Never did I for a moment think of doing any damage to them; rather I was awed and honored to be able to study such links to the past.

    These people are barbarians endangering the entire human race. The only solution is the one they prefer: extermination.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  8. #8

    Re: Islamic Rebels Burn Medieval Manuscript Library

    I have a cousin who does genealogy work. She told me that if you have ancestors where the Nazis were, your genealogy comes to a dead end and can't go back too far. Nazi carnage destroyed a lot churches during WWII in Russia, Poland, Prussia, Czechoslovakia, etc. For centuries it was those churches which kept detailed records of births, deaths, baptisms, marriages, and the like and those records are gone forever.

    She can trace roots of families going back to the 1200's if their families were from England, Scotland, Sweden and any other areas not caught up in the Nazi conflict. On my paternal side the Nazi's destroyed those Prussian / Russian / Czech churches but on my maternal side (Norway/Sweden) I go back centuries.

    As I said, it pisses me off when antiquities are destroyed.

  9. #9

    Re: Islamic Rebels Burn Medieval Manuscript Library

    Wars destroy.

    Carpet bombing by the the Allies destroyed millions of records also in WW2. We did the same thing to the former Yugoslavia in the 1990's.

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    Re: Islamic Rebels Burn Medieval Manuscript Library

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Wars destroy.

    Carpet bombing by the the Allies destroyed millions of records also in WW2. We did the same thing to the former Yugoslavia in the 1990's.
    It's a VERY different event. We weren't on a single-minded and fervent zeal to eradicate German or Yugoslavian culture and history from the face of the planet. Indeed, when the Allies reached Rome, they were specifically told in their bombing raids that they must avoid many of the famous buildings.

    I'm a bit surprised to find you apparently equivocating and being the least 'hawkish' about this issue. I'd have thought you'd be at the forefront of tackling overseas terrorism and extremism?

    On another point....

    The instant it was known the mindless Islam-crazy thugs were taking over, someone in Mali (for example the museum/cultural authorities) should have had the foresight to smuggle all these treasures out of the region if they could, or maybe alternatively to have made copies of these manuscripts to be held overseas in a safe place. Same goes for women, children, and virtually everything you could think of. Either that of arm yourself and fight. Horrible barbarian excuses for human beings.

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    Re: Islamic Rebels Burn Medieval Manuscript Library

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    That is MUSLIM EXTREMIST. Get your story straight.

    Our current President can't even use the phase "muslim terrorist" or "muslim extremist".

    This is not new. The taliban did similar things in Afghanistan and radical Muslims have threatened to do destroy ancient historical sites in Egypt.
    Once again, I question your reading comprehension and if you're ever really listening in on the discussion. If you read my entire post, I specifically criticize the extreme elements of Islam. I even mention Islam and Muslim in the same sentence, which I thought would trigger your eyes to at least gaze over that sentence.
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    Re: Islamic Rebels Burn Medieval Manuscript Library

    Probably they don't represent islam anymore.
    They just want power and made up their own rules but hide behind the name islam.


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    Re: Islamic Rebels Burn Medieval Manuscript Library

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    That is MUSLIM EXTREMIST. Get your story straight.

    Our current President can't even use the phase "muslim terrorist" or "muslim extremist".

    This is not new. The taliban did similar things in Afghanistan and radical Muslims have threatened to do destroy ancient historical sites in Egypt.
    Every religion I can think of has had its moments of extremism and doing things like this Jack-- including Christianity.

    Yes, it's perfectly reasonable to comment on this as one gross example of what religious extremism does.

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    Re: Islamic Rebels Burn Medieval Manuscript Library

    Have we so quickly forgotten Henry VIII's Dissolution of the Monasterys when, among other things, he ordered the confiscation and destruction of the Monasterys' books and writings. Or for that matter like action by the Reformist Crowns of other Northern European Kingdoms.

    This does not condone; but such actions are not new.

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    Re: Islamic Rebels Burn Medieval Manuscript Library

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    A common complaint the Islamic fundamentalists make everywhere is that the West is corrupting their culture. How then does it make sense to destroy evidence one's own past? Maybe it's the intellectualism they hate. I will never understand this ideology completely. These Islamists just seem to hate everything that is wholesome and good in the world. Some are even actively trying to stop the eradication of polio, which is on the verge of being completely wiped out in the remaining three endemic countries.
    I watched a clip from one Islamist preacher whom I suspect represents a broad swath of Islamic fundamentalism. He flat out asserted that no book should exist but the Qur'an.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Islamic Rebels Burn Medieval Manuscript Library

    Any group that believes in burning any books deserves to be sent to oblivion. In that I include some of the "white power" groups, which have advocated burning anything authored by non-whites.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  17. #17

    Re: Islamic Rebels Burn Medieval Manuscript Library

    I was just pointing out the obvious that wasn't addressed. War is hell.

    In regards to your opinion that I would be the most hawkish, you have a lot to learn about me and conservatism.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChickenGuy View Post
    It's a VERY different event. We weren't on a single-minded and fervent zeal to eradicate German or Yugoslavian culture and history from the face of the planet. Indeed, when the Allies reached Rome, they were specifically told in their bombing raids that they must avoid many of the famous buildings.

    I'm a bit surprised to find you apparently equivocating and being the least 'hawkish' about this issue. I'd have thought you'd be at the forefront of tackling overseas terrorism and extremism?

    On another point....

    The instant it was known the mindless Islam-crazy thugs were taking over, someone in Mali (for example the museum/cultural authorities) should have had the foresight to smuggle all these treasures out of the region if they could, or maybe alternatively to have made copies of these manuscripts to be held overseas in a safe place. Same goes for women, children, and virtually everything you could think of. Either that of arm yourself and fight. Horrible barbarian excuses for human beings.

  18. #18

    Re: Islamic Rebels Burn Medieval Manuscript Library

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Every religion I can think of has had its moments of extremism and doing things like this Jack-- including Christianity.

    Yes, it's perfectly reasonable to comment on this as one gross example of what religious extremism does.
    You can include atheism on that list -- but we are talking about what's happening today and what needs to be done today -- we can't do anything to change what happened in the past.

  19. #19

    Re: Islamic Rebels Burn Medieval Manuscript Library

    ^^
    Yes, the culture of Islam brought so much to progressive culture in the past.

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    Re: Islamic Rebels Burn Medieval Manuscript Library

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    You can include atheism on that list -- but we are talking about what's happening today and what needs to be done today -- we can't do anything to change what happened in the past.
    What are you talking about? I'm atheist and I've read the Bible (multiple translations), parts of the Qu'ran and the entire Baghavid Gita. (Hardly understood any of it, it makes the Bible read by comparison like a transcript of an episode of Barney the Purple Dinosaur.) Plus I have a ridiculous reverence for history so even if something is religious in nature-- a piece of artwork or an ancient manuscript, I'm still horrified if someone destroys it.

    Also atheism isn't a religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    ^^
    Yes, the culture of Islam brought so much to progressive culture in the past.
    Yes, at many points it did. It's responsible for slowly teaching Europe most of the secrets brought from China along the silk road that enabled the age of discovery-- oh little things like the compass and gunpowder-- and at points the Muslim world even protected the Jews from Christian persecution.

    Please know something about history before you try to make comments about it.

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    Re: Islamic Rebels Burn Medieval Manuscript Library

    Jack, when you use that broad brush you often do you make far less credible your assertions of being open minded and thinking for yourself. Islamic hstory is neither wholly benign or negative....for most of our medieval period the areas they controlled in Europe were far more enlightened than the authoritarian Christian monarchies that replaced them. "The Spanish Inquisition" anyone?
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    Re: Islamic Rebels Burn Medieval Manuscript Library

    For all those that think that this is just an Islamic tic....Check your History.

    Under Savonarola, many irreplaceable humanist manuscripts and works of art were sacrificed to fire.

    Every religion has its phases of fundamentalism.

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    Re: Islamic Rebels Burn Medieval Manuscript Library

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    ^^
    Yes, the culture of Islam brought so much to progressive culture in the past.
    You are so fucking right.

    But the Wahabists have risen to prominence because of Saudi Arabia.

    Anyone who doesn't realize that America's bestest friend with oil wells has been the heart and soul of the fundamentalist movement in Islam is just ignoring history.

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    Re: Islamic Rebels Burn Medieval Manuscript Library

    Not much is known about Imperial Mali and Songhai outside of western Africa, the two empires responsible for turning Timbuktu and other cities into centers of learning. These manuscripts are invaluable if we are going to learn anything more about Africa's history and place in the world. A good number of these texts are commentaries on the Qu'ran and Sharia, so although it would be a loss nevertheless, I hope we didn't lose the works of some unnamed genius.

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    Re: Islamic Rebels Burn Medieval Manuscript Library

    No one group can claim blamelessness in the destruction of knowlege:

    Ancient and modern sources identify four possible occasions for the partial or complete destruction of the Library of Alexandria: Julius Caesar's fire in the Alexandrian War, in 48 BC; the attack of Aurelian in AD 270 – 275; the decree of Coptic Pope Theophilus in AD 391; and the Muslim conquest in AD 642 or thereafter.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_of_Alexandria

    And one of the ancient world's knowledge repositories was lost.

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    Re: Islamic Rebels Burn Medieval Manuscript Library

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-21248951

    The BBC has put up a set of pictures. They were taken in May 2010 when a BBC Africa journalist went to Timbuktu and visited the Ahmed Baba Institute (the same place JockBoy mentions in his first post) They held the most important manuscript collections.

    There might be some consolation - I bolded a part of the quote underneath....



    These 13th-Century commentaries on the Koran were among the oldest manuscripts in the library. Workers at the Ahmed Baba Institute have told the BBC that around 2,000 manuscripts may have been lost while 28,000 were taken to Bamako, Mali's capital, after the Islamist groups took control of the city.
    ....so thankfully, all is not lost.

    Some other pics and descriptions....



    The ancient Malian city of Timbuktu has housed for centuries thousands of manuscripts which are invaluable to the history of Africa and Islam. Several thousand of them seem to have been lost or taken away by retreating Islamist militants as French and Malian troops were advancing towards Timbuktu.


    The manuscripts dealt with different fields of knowledge. The text with red drawings, for example, is a treatise on astronomy by Nouradine bin Mohamed Ahmed, and the manuscript on the bottom left is an 18th-Century copy of an earlier text on pharmacology. It contains recipes for traditional Sahelian remedies written next to Koranic verses.


    Many of the manuscripts were acquired from Timbuktu families which had kept them for centuries. The dry climate of the region, located on the southern edge of the Sahara desert, contributed to their preservation. This is a 17th-Century copy of a biography of the Prophet Muhammad.


    The centre is named after Ahmed Baba, considered Timbuktu's greatest scholar. Several of his best known texts were written while he lived in Morocco, like this manuscript from Marrakech which dates from 1599. He died in 1627 in Timbuktu.

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    Re: Islamic Rebels Burn Medieval Manuscript Library

    Does anyone know of any efforts to digitally encode most/all of these texts, much as is being done with The Dead Sea Scrolls? It is no good to bemoan their loss if no effort is made to protect them irretrievably.

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    Re: Islamic Rebels Burn Medieval Manuscript Library

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    Does anyone know of any efforts to digitally encode most/all of these texts, much as is being done with The Dead Sea Scrolls? It is no good to bemoan their loss if no effort is made to protect them irretrievably.
    Absolutely no idea. I was actually just thinking it's rather appalling how little we know or hear about anything in Africa really unless you go very far out of your way to look it up. I wouldn't be surprised if a good chunk of world academia didn't even know this respository existed.

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    Re: Islamic Rebels Burn Medieval Manuscript Library

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    Does anyone know of any efforts to digitally encode most/all of these texts, much as is being done with The Dead Sea Scrolls? It is no good to bemoan their loss if no effort is made to protect them irretrievably.
    That was discussed in another pic in my link (I only posted some of them)

    Good news in bold again....



    In the new building the manuscripts were being digitised before being restored - in case something went wrong and also with the hope of making them available on the internet. It was a project that was expected to take many years. It may have saved some of the contents of the missing texts as the hard disks containing the digital data were reportedly taken to Bamako.
    Plus this....



    In Timbuktu there are several other manuscript collections, mostly private ones. It is believed that, together, they contain hundreds of thousands of documents. It is not known whether any of them were also vandalised by the retreating rebels. Text and photos: Manuel Toledo, BBC Africa

  30. #30

    Re: Islamic Rebels Burn Medieval Manuscript Library

    Every religion is evil and retrograde, but Islam just happens to be a little more evil and more retrograde than most. I am friends with several muslims, but always the secular kind. Then again, Europeans are usually quite secular, so that includes most of our muslims.
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    Re: Islamic Rebels Burn Medieval Manuscript Library

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeno Lorea View Post
    Every religion is evil and retrograde, but Islam just happens to be a little more evil and more retrograde than most. I am friends with several muslims, but always the secular kind. Then again, Europeans are usually quite secular, so that includes most of our muslims.
    I hear people say that, but I have yet to figure out what's evil about love, peace, generosity, hospitality, kindness, goodness, gentleness, compassion, humility, sharing, or any of the other things Christianity is about.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Islamic Rebels Burn Medieval Manuscript Library

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    I hear people say that, but I have yet to figure out what's evil about love, peace, generosity, hospitality, kindness, goodness, gentleness, compassion, humility, sharing, or any of the other things Christianity is about.
    I don't actually believe the core of any of the major religions is evil. And I believe you can find passages, however obscure or remote or out of character, from any of their holy books which you could potentially twist and use to justify really horrible things.

    It's not about the core message but the interpretation and emphasis. Just as radical Islam today is pretty fundamentally against what a majority of moderate Muslims feel their faith is really about, so too we had things like the Inquisition or the book burnings in Medieval Europe.

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    Re: Islamic Rebels Burn Medieval Manuscript Library

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    I don't actually believe the core of any of the major religions is evil. And I believe you can find passages, however obscure or remote or out of character, from any of their holy books which you could potentially twist and use to justify really horrible things.

    It's not about the core message but the interpretation and emphasis. Just as radical Islam today is pretty fundamentally against what a majority of moderate Muslims feel their faith is really about, so too we had things like the Inquisition or the book burnings in Medieval Europe.
    But it is about the core. If it weren't, then we could define the Democratic party as communist and the Republican party as terrorist -- and both as totalitarian.

    The core of a thing is what that thing is about, just as the seeds in the core of an apple are what the apple is about. In terms of religion, anyone who doesn't adhere to the core is manifestly not truly part of that religion. And while it may be difficult to precisely define the border, it is definitely possible to assess those who are plainly far away from it as not belonging.

    Those who engage in violence in the name of God are far from the core of Christianity, and likely far from the core of Islam. THey are thus logically not a part of those communities -- and that means that the source of the violence, the hatred, the bigotry, must be sought elsewhere. Accusing the entire religions of the aberrations of some is both dishonest and intellectually lazy.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Islamic Rebels Burn Medieval Manuscript Library

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    But it is about the core. If it weren't, then we could define the Democratic party as communist and the Republican party as terrorist -- and both as totalitarian.

    The core of a thing is what that thing is about, just as the seeds in the core of an apple are what the apple is about. In terms of religion, anyone who doesn't adhere to the core is manifestly not truly part of that religion. And while it may be difficult to precisely define the border, it is definitely possible to assess those who are plainly far away from it as not belonging.

    Those who engage in violence in the name of God are far from the core of Christianity, and likely far from the core of Islam. THey are thus logically not a part of those communities -- and that means that the source of the violence, the hatred, the bigotry, must be sought elsewhere. Accusing the entire religions of the aberrations of some is both dishonest and intellectually lazy.
    I agree with you, on one caveat. I think religious communities in the world today all largely perceive themselves, regardless of their strength or predominance in a given society, as "under attack." You can hear the same thing from people of virtually any faith. And I think that engenders something of a bunker mentality where the moderate or mainstream practictioners of almost any religion, even when they don't approve of their extreme elements, are often loathe to step out of the crowd and denounce it. It's not limited to Islam, though I'm sure that would be in the forefront of many people's minds. That would be part of my issue with religion, or rather, with "the religious", not with their particular religions.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    Good news, reported by Reuters, only 2000 or so manuscripts were destroyed out of the estimated 300,000 in the city. Still that's a significant number. The Walter's in Baltimore has about 900. To think about losing more than twice that number... There's also a video by Reuters showing French President Francois Hollande in the museum. It looks like some of the pages might be recoverable. What some have said here is apparently true, the manuscripts were targeted for being against the rebels' radical form of Islam.
    I'll still be really mad if they find out one of the burned ones had the secret of Greek fire in it.

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    Re: Islamic Rebels Burn Medieval Manuscript Library

    Next to human life,an assault on history is the worst thing you can do.

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    Re: Islamic Rebels Burn Medieval Manuscript Library

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninja108 View Post
    Next to human life,an assault on history is the worst thing you can do.
    Exception: book burners should be caught, tied up, and tossed on the same fire with the books they're burning.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Islamic Rebels Burn Medieval Manuscript Library

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    I hear people say that, but I have yet to figure out what's evil about love, peace, generosity, hospitality, kindness, goodness, gentleness, compassion, humility, sharing, or any of the other things Christianity Lutheranism Kulindarism is about.
    revised for accuracy; the history books bear out a very different picture of that religion you first mentioned; it is actually quite like all the others you were unwilling to defend.

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    Re: Islamic Rebels Burn Medieval Manuscript Library

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    revised for accuracy; the history books bear out a very different picture of that religion you first mentioned; it is actually quite like all the others you were unwilling to defend.
    Have to agree. There's a modern, warm, huggable reinvention of Christianity as harmless love that doesn't reflect its role in most of history prior to the last century or so.

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    Re: Islamic Rebels Burn Medieval Manuscript Library

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    revised for accuracy; the history books bear out a very different picture of that religion you first mentioned; it is actually quite like all the others you were unwilling to defend.
    Revised for your prejudice, rather. History books do not define a religion or anything else, they merely show what people claiming to follow some system do. If we go by history books, what the US is about is genocide, racism, war and terror -- but to know what the US is really about, one must look at the Constitution, Declaration of Independence, and other core documents. In philosophical terms, it's the substance that defines a thing, not the accidents.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Islamic Rebels Burn Medieval Manuscript Library

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Have to agree. There's a modern, warm, huggable reinvention of Christianity as harmless love that doesn't reflect its role in most of history prior to the last century or so.
    By this, the right wingnuts are correct, and what the Democratic party is really about is racism and killing the unborn.

    One does not define a thing by the accidental attachments to it, one defines a thing by its definition.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: Islamic Rebels Burn Medieval Manuscript Library

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    By this, the right wingnuts are correct, and what the Democratic party is really about is racism and killing the unborn.

    One does not define a thing by the accidental attachments to it, one defines a thing by its definition.
    I haven't set any definition of Christianity. I've talked about its role in history.

    It's irrelevant to me if the Bible itself says you're going to hell for killing anyone in any circumstance whatsoever if history is full of Christians killing a whole lot of peoples and justifying it with religion. It's equally irrelevant to me if the Quaker Bible does say killing is alright but the practice of its religion is moderate and nonviolent by preponderance of practice.

    You frequently try to conflate the core message of a religion with how we should view its presence and role in human history. In other words we have to take the crusades and the inquisitions out of our consideration when we talk about Christianity's presence on the world stage in history, and that's simple revisionism.

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    Re: Islamic Rebels Burn Medieval Manuscript Library

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    I haven't set any definition of Christianity. I've talked about its role in history.

    It's irrelevant to me if the Bible itself says you're going to hell for killing anyone in any circumstance whatsoever if history is full of Christians killing a whole lot of peoples and justifying it with religion. It's equally irrelevant to me if the Quaker Bible does say killing is alright but the practice of its religion is moderate and nonviolent by preponderance of practice.

    You frequently try to conflate the core message of a religion with how we should view its presence and role in human history. In other words we have to take the crusades and the inquisitions out of our consideration when we talk about Christianity's presence on the world stage in history, and that's simple revisionism.
    No, I merely insist that when people talk about a given religion, they talk about that religion and not any attachments that have nothing to do with it. One may as well declare that someone who provided information enabling terrorists to kill a million people is actually a patriot, or that someone who blows up a library has respect for learning.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  43. #43

    Re: Islamic Rebels Burn Medieval Manuscript Library

    Quote Originally Posted by Keeland View Post
    Also the destruction of the 6th-century Buddhas of Bamiyan by the Taliban.

    Even Genghis Khan left them alone. Ain't religion wonderful.
    I remember when this happened. I was fucking mad at these fanatics destroying antiquities in the name of "religion".

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    Re: Islamic Rebels Burn Medieval Manuscript Library

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Revised for your prejudice, rather. History books do not define a religion or anything else, they merely show what people claiming to follow some system do. If we go by history books, what the US is about is genocide, racism, war and terror -- but to know what the US is really about, one must look at the Constitution, Declaration of Independence, and other core documents. In philosophical terms, it's the substance that defines a thing, not the accidents.
    This is akin to the debate between British Common Law on one hand, and European Civil Codes and Constitutions on the other. I say a religion is as history reveals through the catalogue of things done in its name over the centuries. Your position that we can believe what religion says about itself without any reference to history is far too limited to be a guide to understanding.

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    Re: Islamic Rebels Burn Medieval Manuscript Library

    Quote Originally Posted by Keeland View Post
    Also the destruction of the 6th-century Buddhas of Bamiyan by the Taliban.

    Even Genghis Khan left them alone. Ain't religion wonderful.
    If it wsn't for religion, there wouldn't be those sttues to destroy.

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