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  1. #1

    whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    I am quite intrigued how come the gay online community forum here to do with religion and spirituality seems to be mainly obsessed with the Christian myth, as if to suggest that Christianity invented religion and spirituality.

    I would just like to explore why. Of course we in the western world are permeated with this myth since being little, and we ALL have 'Christian' names, so even though generally there is an acceptance we have moved on away from this age of religion and now exist in the 'real' world of scientific materialism that willy-nilly all the Christian principles and values remain, some unconsciously.

    It's quite strange how the book the Bible can have had so much influence over so many over the generations isn't it. EVEN though for many gay people we have had to suffer great abuse from believers in this book for a long long time YET the threads in this section seem devoted to this religion as though it has a patent on religion, spirituality, and philosophy.

    What are gay people here feeling about this is my question?

  2. #2
    MikeyLove
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    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Quote Originally Posted by ludolfo View Post
    I am quite intrigued how come the gay online community forum here to do with religion and spirituality seems to be mainly obsessed with the Christian myth, as if to suggest that Christianity invented religion and spirituality.

    I would just like to explore why. Of course we in the western world are permeated with this myth since being little, and we ALL have 'Christian' names, so even though generally there is an acceptance we have moved on away from this age of religion and now exist in the 'real' world of scientific materialism that willy-nilly all the Christian principles and values remain, some unconsciously.

    It's quite strange how the book the Bible can have had so much influence over so many over the generations isn't it. EVEN though for many gay people we have had to suffer great abuse from believers in this book for a long long time YET the threads in this section seem devoted to this religion as though it has a patent on religion, spirituality, and philosophy.

    What are gay people here feeling about this is my question?
    It is all due to the fact that Christianity is not a myth. Look under all the bad that has happened through-out History and you will come to see all the Good that Christianity has brought into the world. It is also due to God coming to us in the form of Jesus Christ, who is the WORD of God. Read the Lives of the Saints through History. Read deep into the why and how the Church stood the test of time.

  3. #3
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    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Christianity as a religion is a function of the extent of the Roman Empire. Beyond that extent it is marginalized or corrupted into obscuring local religious beliefs.

    It is an enduring myth because it is all you're taught.

  4. #4
    SilverFoXXXHunter
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    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    You know, there is a think called gay Christians. Since this is a community I suggest you display a little more tolerance when you speak of religion. So, be mindful before you call a person’s way of LIFE a myth. People call being born gay “a myth”, and I’m sure you wouldn’t agree, now would you? So, think before you speak. And secondly, the reason Christianity endures is because the good it has done exceeds the bad people have done in the name of it- however, people tend to dwell on only the bad- like you. Religion and faith are beautiful things if you understand them.

  5. #5
    MikeyLove
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    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Quote Originally Posted by palbert View Post
    Christianity as a religion is a function of the extent of the Roman Empire. Beyond that extent it is marginalized or corrupted into obscuring local religious beliefs.

    It is an enduring myth because it is all you're taught.
    Much of what I know, I had to learn and study on my own because of serious discrepancies in the teachings in CCD since I was a kid in the 1970's (I was born 1968), as in too many errors were being taught. I studied on my own as an adult, and what I learned was very different from what I was taught in CCD while in Elementary School. So, with experiences in Catholicism since....I can say that it isn't a Myth at all.

  6. #6

    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Palbert,
    Christianity's bounds, from its beginnings, far exceeded those of the Roman Empire. India has had a vibrant Christian church since the first century. Armenia was the first nation to make Christianity its official religion. After Constantine legalized Christianity in the Empire, there were vibrant non-imperial churches in Ethiopia, Nubia, Assyria (modern Iraq), Georgia, Persia, and China (which, along with the Coptic Church in Egypt, broke communion with the imperial church in 451), as well as the Aryan church which was the dominant religion of the Goths and Vandals threatening the Empire from the north. While some of these churches fell to politics and the rise of Islam, the Armenian, Coptic (over 15% of the population of Egypt) and Ethiopian churches are quite strong. And since the final fall of the Roman Empire to the Ottomans in 1453, minority churches have survived in the Muslim lands of the East, as did suppressed churches in the Soviet empire and communist China.

    Why has the Jewish "myth" endured so long? Except for the short period of Solomon's reign, it was never the religion of a great and powerful nation. Indeed, the Jewish nation suffered repeated destruction and dispersal. The gods of Israel's more powerful neighbors, Ra of Egypt, Marduk of Babylon, Dagon of the Philistines, Zeus of ancient Greece, are consigned to the history books, but the praise of YHWH still resounds. I think Judaism has endured because it has given the Jewish people (and others) hope, a sense of identity, and a way of life for 3 millenia, and continues to do so.

    So too with Christianity. It would not have endured, even with the support of kings and emporers, unless people found in it meaning, sustenance, and hope.

    As to gay Christians, I think you will find most of us have a deeper and more real faith than the nominal Christians who use a few out-of-context biblical passages to support their own prejudice, hatred and insecurity.

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    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeyLove View Post
    It is all due to the fact that Christianity is not a myth. Look under all the bad that has happened through-out History and you will come to see all the Good that Christianity has brought into the world. It is also due to God coming to us in the form of Jesus Christ, who is the WORD of God. Read the Lives of the Saints through History. Read deep into the why and how the Church stood the test of time.
    Christianity is a myth. The Bible is not a historical document and Christianity for the most part has brought more evil then good. It has brough scientific ignorance, sexism, racism, homophobia, barbarity, inherited guilt and denial of human dignity. Christianity and Islam have higher body counts then any other religion out there.

    As to why gays tend to obsess over Christianity it is simple. It is because they were indoctrinated into this tripe and instead of growing a pair and leaving this cult they choose to wallow in a cult that hates them. [Text: Removed]
    Quote Originally Posted by MikeyLove View Post
    Much of what I know, I had to learn and study on my own because of serious discrepancies in the teachings in CCD since I was a kid in the 1970's (I was born 1968), as in too many errors were being taught. I studied on my own as an adult, and what I learned was very different from what I was taught in CCD while in Elementary School. So, with experiences in Catholicism since....I can say that it isn't a Myth at all.
    Personal experience does not qualify as evidence. Plus all of the mainstream scientists, psychologists, historians and anthropologists would disagree with you about Christianity not being a myth.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gros Morne Guy View Post
    Palbert,
    Christianity's bounds, from its beginnings, far exceeded those of the Roman Empire. India has had a vibrant Christian church since the first century. Armenia was the first nation to make Christianity its official religion. After Constantine legalized Christianity in the Empire, there were vibrant non-imperial churches in Ethiopia, Nubia, Assyria (modern Iraq), Georgia, Persia, and China (which, along with the Coptic Church in Egypt, broke communion with the imperial church in 451), as well as the Aryan church which was the dominant religion of the Goths and Vandals threatening the Empire from the north. While some of these churches fell to politics and the rise of Islam, the Armenian, Coptic (over 15% of the population of Egypt) and Ethiopian churches are quite strong. And since the final fall of the Roman Empire to the Ottomans in 1453, minority churches have survived in the Muslim lands of the East, as did suppressed churches in the Soviet empire and communist China.

    Why has the Jewish "myth" endured so long? Except for the short period of Solomon's reign, it was never the religion of a great and powerful nation. Indeed, the Jewish nation suffered repeated destruction and dispersal. The gods of Israel's more powerful neighbors, Ra of Egypt, Marduk of Babylon, Dagon of the Philistines, Zeus of ancient Greece, are consigned to the history books, but the praise of YHWH still resounds. I think Judaism has endured because it has given the Jewish people (and others) hope, a sense of identity, and a way of life for 3 millenia, and continues to do so.

    So too with Christianity. It would not have endured, even with the support of kings and emporers, unless people found in it meaning, sustenance, and hope.

    As to gay Christians, I think you will find most of us have a deeper and more real faith than the nominal Christians who use a few out-of-context biblical passages to support their own prejudice, hatred and insecurity.
    The Abrahamic religions have survived for one reason alone. It is because they were better at killing and pillaging other people and had no problem with forced conversions. These religions have mainly spread by the sword.
    Last edited by opinterph; February 10th, 2013 at 12:37 AM. Reason: no flame zone

  8. #8
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    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Quote Originally Posted by ludolfo View Post
    I am quite intrigued how come the gay online community forum here to do with religion and spirituality seems to be mainly obsessed with the Christian myth, as if to suggest that Christianity invented religion and spirituality.

    I would just like to explore why. Of course we in the western world are permeated with this myth since being little, and we ALL have 'Christian' names, so even though generally there is an acceptance we have moved on away from this age of religion and now exist in the 'real' world of scientific materialism that willy-nilly all the Christian principles and values remain, some unconsciously.
    Christianity has no more a special magnetic pull on its adherents than most other religions. The membership of JUB is composed largely of people from historically Christian nations. If it were made up of people from Sri Lanka, Japan or Morocco, for instance, the community wouldn't be disposed to a majority of christian threads.

    I'm very unsurprised that most people endorse, reject and interpret through the idioms they're most familiar with. It would seem much stranger to me if lots of us freely moved beyond the culture and history with which we are best acquainted.

  9. #9

    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    I think that Christian belief is a mythology like others but has pretended to be historical, and that is the problem. Believers have been forced to literally believe there actually was a Jesus of Nazareth who was the only Son of God, and who dies for our sins and was resurrected physically and ascended to heaven to be with his Father. Now to me that sounds like a mythology and not actual history, but that is what they have forc3e fed people down the generations, and people have been jailed, tortured and murdered for questioning this myth, and even here at this forum which celebrates all forms of sexuality, I have got told off by some here for DARING to call Christianity a myth so this pressure not to is still surviving as of January 2013...!!

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    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    I don't have the sense that in the history of Christianity there has been an unchanging bias in favor of a historical understanding of Christian stories. Rather, I tend to think that in our current era we, as a whole civilization, value factuality first and foremost; Christians have become asinine literalists and partisans as a side-effect of our larger notion of truth.

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    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    MikeyLove, just want to say that not everyone is against you or against the Catholic Church. You're not alone. I don't have answers for most of their arguements, but I do have faith. Peace to you.

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    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rickrock View Post
    MikeyLove, just want to say that not everyone is against you or against the Catholic Church. You're not alone. I don't have answers for most of their arguements, but I do have faith. Peace to you.
    MikeyLove has stated his adherence to the catholic dogma that homosexuality is 'objectively disordered.' This idea is used to deny civil rights to gay people; it renders us a sub-class of humans and its repercussions include suicide, despair and hate. Although I also wish MikeyLove happiness and fulfillment, I think it's important to condemn the official hatred the catholic church espouses.

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    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Quote Originally Posted by ludolfo View Post
    I am quite intrigued how come the gay online community forum here to do with religion and spirituality seems to be mainly obsessed with the Christian myth, as if to suggest that Christianity invented religion and spirituality.

    I would just like to explore why. Of course we in the western world are permeated with this myth since being little, and we ALL have 'Christian' names, so even though generally there is an acceptance we have moved on away from this age of religion and now exist in the 'real' world of scientific materialism that willy-nilly all the Christian principles and values remain, some unconsciously.

    It's quite strange how the book the Bible can have had so much influence over so many over the generations isn't it. EVEN though for many gay people we have had to suffer great abuse from believers in this book for a long long time YET the threads in this section seem devoted to this religion as though it has a patent on religion, spirituality, and philosophy.

    What are gay people here feeling about this is my question?
    Ludolfo, so many posters here are American and even though I live next to the states, until the internet and until this forum I rarely had the opportunity to interact with them. I have enjoyed getting to know my neighbours, but I too am astonished by the salience of Christianity to Americans, including the gay ones. It just doesn't figure into the everyday lives of people elsewhere to nearly the same degree. I don't think you're discovering a gay phenomenon, but a gay American phenomenon.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rickrock View Post
    MikeyLove, just want to say that not everyone is against you or against the Catholic Church. You're not alone. I don't have answers for most of their arguements, but I do have faith. Peace to you.
    MikeyLove has said that homosexulity is "objectively disordered" and caused by original sin aka inherited guilt when science shows it is caused by nature. He has also said that gays should be celibate and in order to be good Catholics must hate their sexuality and fight against it.

    Do you believe in this self hating Abrahamic claptrap as well?

  15. #15
    Coward92
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    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mariatenebre View Post
    MikeyLove has said that homosexulity is "objectively disordered" and caused by original sin aka inherited guilt when science shows it is caused by nature. He has also said that gays should be celibate and in order to be good Catholics must hate their sexuality and fight against it.

    Do you believe in this self hating Abrahamic claptrap as well?
    I'm not saying you are not right, but I would love to see proof that homosexuality is indeed a result of genetic/hormonal factors before I believe that.
    In my opinion is it caused by mainly hormonal factors that take place in the womb, but this is still just a theory.

    We do not know why homosexuality exists, but since it was always present in human population, we presume that it has genetic roots.

    We, however do not KNOW it for sure, it is "just" very likely.

  16. #16
    MikeyLove
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    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mariatenebre View Post
    MikeyLove has said that homosexulity is "objectively disordered" and caused by original sin aka inherited guilt when science shows it is caused by nature. He has also said that gays should be celibate and in order to be good Catholics must hate their sexuality and fight against it.

    Do you believe in this self hating Abrahamic claptrap as well?
    Maria, stick your nose in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and read #2357-2359. FYI, I am not self-hating, as everyone around me knows all about me, and understands where I am coming from. [Text: Removed] I will put you on my prayer list.
    Last edited by opinterph; January 27th, 2013 at 04:50 PM. Reason: no flame zone

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    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Well two main reasons:

    1. Christianity is the biggest religion in the world and in the western world majority of the people are Christians.

    2. No one thing has killed as many people as Christianity. Most countries didn't choose to adopt it they were forced to.

    It's ridiculous that a third of the world population worships a magician who died 2000 years ago.

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    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Fighting against normal healthy homosexual traits is not an example of loving yourself, which is what the Catholic Church preaches. It tells people that to love themselves they must try to overcome and suppress their natural healthy homosexuality and allow their sexuality to wither into hollow catholic chasteness. That is not a theology of self love, it is a cruel and futile barbaric hateful doctrine, and the Catholic Church should be condemned for it. A person who recognises a same sex attraction should be free to explore it with another adult without any shame, guilt or interference imposed by the church. But the church does not know its place and it just shoves pain and lost opportunity down the throats of people who are often too afraid to break their dependency on the church and reject such monstrous nonsense. Gay is good. Being gay with someone is also good. No disorder, no sin, no shame.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

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    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Mariatenebre, thank you for your question. I am not sure what "objectively disordered" means, but I believe that homosexuality is most likely caused by nature and not chosen by those individuals. I am willing to believe that sexual activity outside of marriage is usually wrong, but homosexual activity is no worse than heterosexual activity. Even if sexual activity is usually wrong outside of marriage, in our culture it is difficult to believe that it is a serious error between consenting adults, but more of a lesser sin. Humankind has many human tendancies which we must learn to control, such as greed and sex among many others, and we must learn to direct these tendancies in constructive directions. Greed is probably a worse problem than sex. I believe in God and believe that the basic beliefs and ideaology of the Catholic Church is the closest to God's will, but humankind sometimes is misguided in carrying it out and I have some disagreements with some Catholic policies. I do believe that abortion is murder, but we do allow murder in wartime and do execute criminals. If we do stop abortions, it would be wrong to do that without providing economic and emotional support support to mothers and children, such as, and including, starting with free healthcare to children from pre-birth through the age of 19 as well as financial support.

  20. #20
    Coward92
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    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Quote Originally Posted by Laufey View Post


    2. No one thing has killed as many people as Christianity. Most countries didn't choose to adopt it they were forced to.
    Prove it.
    Pretty please

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    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeyLove View Post
    Maria, stick your nose in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and read #2357-2359. FYI, I am not self-hating, as everyone around me knows all about me, and understands where I am coming from. [Quoted Text: Removed] I will put you on my prayer list.
    Going around saying that every single human being, yourself included, is guilty of original sin is self-hating.
    Last edited by opinterph; January 27th, 2013 at 04:49 PM. Reason: removed verbiage quoted from another poster

  22. #22

    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    OMG, do I even want to get into this?

    People adhere to this ancient religion which worships virgin births, resurrections and a blood sacrifice because they're been indoctrinated from an early age. They've been promised a glorious afterlife if they blindly follow what they've been told. Threatened with "eternal damnation" if you don't.

    Religion is nothing more than a tool to control thoughts, feelings, desires and emotions. It's more powerful that political control. It's mind control.

    It's funny how those who calls themselves a "christian" sees the folly of other religions but not their own. Mind control again.

    I don't condemn anyone who wants to go along with this, but they better not condemn me for not.

  23. #23
    Coward92
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    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyBob View Post
    OMG, do I even want to get into this?

    People adhere to this ancient religion which worships virgin births, resurrections and a blood sacrifice because they're been indoctrinated from an early age. They've been promised a glorious afterlife if they blindly follow what they've been told. Threatened with "eternal damnation" if you don't.

    Religion is nothing more than a tool to control thoughts, feelings, desires and emotions. It's more powerful that political control. It's mind control.

    It's funny how those who calls themselves a "christian" sees the folly of other religions but not their own. Mind control again.

    I don't condemn anyone who wants to go along with this, but they better not condemn me for not.
    You can not control desires, emotions and feelings. You can only control how you react to them.

  24. #24

    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coward92 View Post
    You can not control desires, emotions and feelings. You can only control how you react to them.
    Same difference.

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    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeyLove View Post
    Maria, stick your nose in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and read #2357-2359. FYI, I am not self-hating, as everyone around me knows all about me, and understands where I am coming from. [Quoted Text: Removed] I will put you on my prayer list.
    I know what the Catechism says that dosen't change the fact that it is wrong. It is shown that homosexuality is caused by nature and not some curse caused by inherited guilt. You believe in being celibate and hating your sexuality even though psychology says the opposite.

    [Text: Removed] Next don't save a prayer for me. I would rather my name not be mentioned in a prayer to Yahweh Sabeoth the bloody war god of the Canaanites.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rickrock View Post
    Mariatenebre, thank you for your question. I am not sure what "objectively disordered" means, but I believe that homosexuality is most likely caused by nature and not chosen by those individuals. I am willing to believe that sexual activity outside of marriage is usually wrong, but homosexual activity is no worse than heterosexual activity. Even if sexual activity is usually wrong outside of marriage, in our culture it is difficult to believe that it is a serious error between consenting adults, but more of a lesser sin. Humankind has many human tendancies which we must learn to control, such as greed and sex among many others, and we must learn to direct these tendancies in constructive directions. Greed is probably a worse problem than sex. I believe in God and believe that the basic beliefs and ideaology of the Catholic Church is the closest to God's will, but humankind sometimes is misguided in carrying it out and I have some disagreements with some Catholic policies. I do believe that abortion is murder, but we do allow murder in wartime and do execute criminals. If we do stop abortions, it would be wrong to do that without providing economic and emotional support support to mothers and children, such as, and including, starting with free healthcare to children from pre-birth through the age of 19 as well as financial support.
    Sex outside of marriage hurts no one. In fact it is far better then choosing to marry just because you want to have sex. Also do you then believe in gay marriage since you believe in the nonsense of waiting to have sex to get married or do you believe in the celibacy nonsense.

    As for abortion sorry but according to science it is not murder. A fetus/embryo/cluster of cells has no sentience, personhood or intelligence and has as much of these things as a jar of paste. Any given animal has more of these things then these pre life forms and I don't see pro lifers running out to be vegetarians.
    Last edited by opinterph; January 27th, 2013 at 04:53 PM. Reason: no flame zone

  26. #26

    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeyLove View Post
    Maria, stick your nose in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and read #2357-2359. FYI, I am not self-hating, as everyone around me knows all about me, and understands where I am coming from. [Quoted Text: Removed] I will put you on my prayer list.
    you mean this bit?
    2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection. [2347]
    So your saying that gay people must not have sex, right? So why do you frequent a forums that is very open about gay sexual freedom and pornography? Is your mission here to 'save' gay people from 'sin' and to call this mission and requirement religion and spirituality?
    Last edited by opinterph; January 27th, 2013 at 04:46 PM. Reason: removed verbiage quoted from another poster

  27. #27

    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coward92 View Post
    Prove it.
    Pretty please
    Well errrm the Christian conquests of the 'New World' for example? And before that was the massive suppression of the Old European Goddess religion by the same kind of oppression fostered by Judeo-Christianity.

    Has anyone heard of the VICTIM/PERPETRATOR SYNDROME? This is a dyanmic that is claimed to happen to the followers and the Judeo-Christian myth. I first read it from John Lamb Lash. I don't agree with some other stuff he claim, as he comes from a Gnostic perspective which I also feel has a paranoid outlook on nature (which I see the Christian myth having) such as his view of the 'Archons' etc, but I really gell with his insights here. I will quote his summary of the syndrome:
    TW: And it provides a cover and justification for dominators and abusers to maim and kill. Take us through what you call the Victim-Perpetrator Syndrome.

    JLL: For some 50 years in American psychology we have developed the idea of the abuse bonding, or what I call the “victim-perpetrator syndrome”. If there is an abuser and there are people who are abused, there will be a bond formed between them. And some of the abused will then become abusers in turn. And even the abused people in the system who do not become abusers will remain faithful and loyal to those who abused them. We see it in dysfunctional families where children who are beaten to an atrocious degree will stand up and defend their parents. So I looked at the victim-perpetrator syndrome to analyze history and found that the ideology of Christian salvation is a concept that is really pathological and serves as a cover for the victim-perpetrator game to continue.

    TW: If perpetrators of abuse are more often than not abused themselves –what abuse was inflicted upon the Europeans prior to the 1st Century that produced for them this drive for domination through violence?

    JLL: Go back and read the Old Testament. Read how Jehovah treats his chosen children.

    TW: He’s always threatening to wipe them out!

    JLL: He punishes them, and then he promises to reward them more highly than any other nations. But at the same time that’s only a lure to pull them deeper into the bonding. The next thing you know they’re being punished again and told they’re not good enough. If you read the Old Testament with this victim-perpetrator syndrome as a key it’s a pretty eye-opening experience. The second historical example is when the Europeans discovered America. They systematically perpetrated genocide on the Native Americans. Why did they do that when they could have acted otherwise and made alliances with those people? My answer is that the Europeans who came to the Americas in the 15th century had already had genocide and violence enacted on them through the imposition of Christianity. They were the abused who turned into the abusers.

    TW: Let’s talk about Jesus. He is considered the very best human to ever walk the earth. You are arguing that’s not the case. ff

  28. #28
    MikeyLove
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    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    “He who acts against his conscience loses his soul.” (Fourth Lateran council, 1215)

    “It is better to perish in excommunication than to violate one’s conscience.” (St. Thomas Aquinas)

    “I shall drink . . To Conscience first, and to the Pope afterwards.” (Cardinal John Henry Newman)

    “If Newman places conscience above authority, he is not proclaiming anything new with respect to the constant teaching of the Church.” (Pope John Paul II)

    “In the final analysis, conscience is inviolable and no person is to be forced to act in a manner contrary to his/her conscience, as the moral tradition of the Church attests.” (Human Life in Our Day, U.S. Bishops Pastoral)

    “A human being must always follow the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were to deliberately act against it he would condemn himself.” Catechism of the Catholic Church #1790)

    “We follow church leaders only to the extent that they themselves follow Christ. . .
    Some situations oblige one to obey God and one’s own conscience rather than the leaders of the church. Indeed, one may even be obliged to accept excommunication rather than act against one’s own conscience.” (Cardinal Walter Kasper, Head of Ecumenical Matters at the Vatican.)

    “Over the Pope as the expression of the binding claim of ecclesiastical authority, there still stands one’s own conscience, which must be obeyed over all else, if necessary even against the requirement of ecclesiastical authority.” (Commentary on Section 16 of Vatican II’s Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the Modern World.)

    I got this from http://www.gaychristian.net/communit.../post/new/#NEW

  29. #29
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    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeyLove View Post
    “He who acts against his conscience loses his soul.” (Fourth Lateran council, 1215)

    “It is better to perish in excommunication than to violate one’s conscience.” (St. Thomas Aquinas)

    “I shall drink . . To Conscience first, and to the Pope afterwards.” (Cardinal John Henry Newman)

    “If Newman places conscience above authority, he is not proclaiming anything new with respect to the constant teaching of the Church.” (Pope John Paul II)

    “In the final analysis, conscience is inviolable and no person is to be forced to act in a manner contrary to his/her conscience, as the moral tradition of the Church attests.” (Human Life in Our Day, U.S. Bishops Pastoral)

    “A human being must always follow the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were to deliberately act against it he would condemn himself.” Catechism of the Catholic Church #1790)

    “We follow church leaders only to the extent that they themselves follow Christ. . .
    Some situations oblige one to obey God and one’s own conscience rather than the leaders of the church. Indeed, one may even be obliged to accept excommunication rather than act against one’s own conscience.” (Cardinal Walter Kasper, Head of Ecumenical Matters at the Vatican.)

    “Over the Pope as the expression of the binding claim of ecclesiastical authority, there still stands one’s own conscience, which must be obeyed over all else, if necessary even against the requirement of ecclesiastical authority.” (Commentary on Section 16 of Vatican II’s Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the Modern World.)

    I got this from http://www.gaychristian.net/communit.../post/new/#NEW
    If you are only going to follow the teachings of the religion that agree with your conscience (by "putting your conscience first"), why not accept your conscience as your source of morality and abandon the religious doctrine that comes with all the immoral baggage that your conscience knows better than to not follow? If you are able to cherry-pick the good in religious doctrine and ignore the bad, you have already demonstrated yourself to be morally superior.

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    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeyLove View Post
    He who acts against his conscience loses his soul. (Fourth Lateran council, 1215)

    It is better to perish in excommunication than to violate ones conscience. (St. Thomas Aquinas)

    I shall drink . . To Conscience first, and to the Pope afterwards. (Cardinal John Henry Newman)

    If Newman places conscience above authority, he is not proclaiming anything new with respect to the constant teaching of the Church. (Pope John Paul II)

    In the final analysis, conscience is inviolable and no person is to be forced to act in a manner contrary to his/her conscience, as the moral tradition of the Church attests. (Human Life in Our Day, U.S. Bishops Pastoral)

    A human being must always follow the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were to deliberately act against it he would condemn himself. Catechism of the Catholic Church #1790)

    We follow church leaders only to the extent that they themselves follow Christ. . .
    Some situations oblige one to obey God and ones own conscience rather than the leaders of the church. Indeed, one may even be obliged to accept excommunication rather than act against ones own conscience. (Cardinal Walter Kasper, Head of Ecumenical Matters at the Vatican.)

    Over the Pope as the expression of the binding claim of ecclesiastical authority, there still stands ones own conscience, which must be obeyed over all else, if necessary even against the requirement of ecclesiastical authority. (Commentary on Section 16 of Vatican IIs Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the Modern World.)

    I got this from http://www.gaychristian.net/communit.../post/new/#NEW
    ^I'm glad to see many christians on the website supporting the idea that god blesses gay unions. I think it's a shame that there are so many who think gay love is sinful.

  31. #31
    MikeyLove
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    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Quote Originally Posted by FirmaFan View Post
    If you are only going to follow the teachings of the religion that agree with your conscience (by "putting your conscience first"), why not accept your conscience as your source of morality and abandon the religious doctrine that comes with all the immoral baggage that your conscience knows better than to not follow? If you are able to cherry-pick the good in religious doctrine and ignore the bad, you have already demonstrated yourself to be morally superior.
    I am under the understanding that Christ founded the Church, and that he did not promise that the leaders are going to be perfect, just as none of us can claim to be perfect in any sense of the word, now with all things considered, we are all called to strive to be perfect as the heavenly Father is perfect....Becoming what we strive for, is in fact Hard work, and it is a lifetime of work. The institution that Christ established is perfect in its own right, but the leaders are not perfect at all. So, you say that I have established myself to be Morally superior? I cannot even Match it, as I am morally inferior, and I can only strive for what Christ asks of me.

  32. #32
    Coward92
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    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Quote Originally Posted by ludolfo View Post
    Well errrm the Christian conquests of the 'New World' for example? And before that was the massive suppression of the Old European Goddess religion by the same kind of oppression fostered by Judeo-Christianity.

    Has anyone heard of the VICTIM/PERPETRATOR SYNDROME? This is a dyanmic that is claimed to happen to the followers and the Judeo-Christian myth. I first read it from John Lamb Lash. I don't agree with some other stuff he claim, as he comes from a Gnostic perspective which I also feel has a paranoid outlook on nature (which I see the Christian myth having) such as his view of the 'Archons' etc, but I really gell with his insights here. I will quote his summary of the syndrome:
    You didn't prove your statement that The Catholic Church is responsible for the most blood shed in our history.
    That was your statement. And while I agree that there was indeed a huge amount of death that are a result of Catholic activity I see no proof that it is the prime reason of people being killed.

    I think the World Wars have killed more people than anything else in this world and that was not a result of Christian religion.

    AGAIN! I do AGREE that many people died because of Christian religion, but I disagree with your claim that it is the thing that causes humanity's downfall and the greatest amount of human deaths. You have no objective proof, you can only theorize things. However we have reliable and accountable information about the victims of the world wars. That's a helluva lot of people. Or should I mention Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Was the nuclear attack the work of a christian group? Nope. And it took thousands of lives, and damaged our world in a previously unseen level.
    Last edited by Coward92; January 27th, 2013 at 11:57 AM.

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    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeyLove View Post
    I am under the understanding that Christ founded the Church, and that he did not promise that the leaders are going to be perfect, just as none of us can claim to be perfect in any sense of the word, now with all things considered, we are all called to strive to be perfect as the heavenly Father is perfect....Becoming what we strive for, is in fact Hard work, and it is a lifetime of work. The institution that Christ established is perfect in its own right, but the leaders are not perfect at all. So, you say that I have established myself to be Morally superior? I cannot even Match it, as I am morally inferior, and I can only strive for what Christ asks of me.
    If you are as morally inferior as you claim yourself to be (again with the ideas of self-loathing instilled by this religion), by what basis then are you able to determine that the institution christ established is morally superior? And, if what is asked of you by christ is deemed morally superior simply because it comes from a powerful being, that isn't morality, that is submission.

  34. #34
    MikeyLove
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    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Quote Originally Posted by FirmaFan View Post
    If you are as morally inferior as you claim yourself to be (again with the ideas of self-loathing instilled by this religion), by what basis then are you able to determine that the institution christ established is morally superior? And, if what is asked of you by christ is deemed morally superior simply because it comes from a powerful being, that isn't morality, that is submission.
    You have a big tendency to think that all religious submission is either coerced, or involuntary, but as for me...it is absolutely Voluntary, and that is the kind of Submission that God wants. He does not want submission that is coerced or involuntary. And again, I reiterate the fact that my Bishop knows all about me being Gay, and the fact that he says that I need not change myself. Now, does that still make me self-loathing? I think not. I have absolutely no reasons to leave the Church founded by Christ. Yes, the church was founded that includes sinful leaders from St. Peter on up to Pope Benedict XVI. The leaders of the Orthodox Church are just as much a sinner as everyone else including me, and you....yes you too.

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    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeyLove View Post
    You have a big tendency to think that all religious submission is either coerced, or involuntary, but as for me...it is absolutely Voluntary, and that is the kind of Submission that God wants. He does not want submission that is coerced or involuntary. And again, I reiterate the fact that my Bishop knows all about me being Gay, and the fact that he says that I need not change myself. Now, does that still make me self-loathing? I think not. I have absolutely no reasons to leave the Church founded by Christ. Yes, the church was founded that includes sinful leaders from St. Peter on up to Pope Benedict XVI. The leaders of the Orthodox Church are just as much a sinner as everyone else including me, and you....yes you too.
    Submission, whether voluntary or not, has no bearing on the fact that simply because a powerful being pronounces something that does not mean it automatically becomes a moral truth. Submission to an authority figure deemed moral merely by the fact that they are the authority is not a path to morality.

    And, of the many many times I have pointed out to you an aspect of your religion that promotes self-loathing, rarely has that been loathing because of homosexuality. Calling yourself morally inferior, claiming you are burdened with the crime of original sin, pronouncing all of humanity as imperfect sinners - those are all examples of self-loathing. Believing these as truths is a tragic consequence, and I feel you are very much a victim of some extremely cruel religious practices. I like to think of us as being much better than religion gives us credit for.
    Last edited by FirmaFan; January 27th, 2013 at 06:14 PM.

  36. #36
    MikeyLove
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    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Quote Originally Posted by FirmaFan View Post
    Submission, whether voluntary or not, has no bearing on the fact that simply because a powerful being pronounces something that does not mean it automatically becomes a moral truth. Submission to an authority figure deemed moral merely by the fact that they are the authority is not a path to morality.

    And, of the many many times I have pointed out to you an aspect of your religion that promotes self-loathing, rarely has that been loathing because of homosexuality. Calling yourself morally inferior, claiming you are burdened with the crime of original sin, pronouncing all of humanity as imperfect sinners - those are all examples of self-loathing. Believing these as truths is a tragic consequence, and I feel you are very much a victim of some extremely cruel religious practices. I like to think of us as being much better than religion gives us credit for.
    It looks to me that you're claiming to be without any sin, something that no one may claim to be, not even me. It also seems that with all of your postings, that you are a Militant Atheist, and in denial of the Reality Of God existing in Heaven and on Earth. God is all around you, and in all of Creation. Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory is just at the threshold of Death. It is far better to suffer Purgatory or Hell in this Life before death, and if you want real proof of the life after death, then ask the Creator to show you, because Science in this matter will not give you the proof that you need.

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    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeyLove View Post
    It looks to me that you're claiming to be without any sin, something that no one may claim to be, not even me.
    I reject the idea of sin as proposed by various religions. It is a non-existent ailment so I can be sold an imaginary cure. Sorry, not buying it.

    It also seems that with all of your postings, that you are a Militant Atheist, and in denial of the Reality Of God existing in Heaven and on Earth.
    Me being an atheist is not contingent upon any militant dogma, it is the conclusion I have come to about the nature of the various claims of the existence of god/gods based upon reasoning, evidence, and rational argument.

    God is all around you, and in all of Creation. Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory is just at the threshold of Death. It is far better to suffer Purgatory or Hell in this Life before death, and if you want real proof of the life after death, then ask the Creator to show you, because Science in this matter will not give you the proof that you need.
    So, all I have to do to find proof of life after death is first believe, then ask the creator, who will show me proof in order to make me believe. It's circular - I have to believe before I can believe - and it gets us no closer to actually discovering the truth. You are probably right, science won't be able to give evidence of life-after-death, most after-death claims are by nature unfalsifiable and are therefore moot when it comes to scientific verification. But here's one thing I do know - I exist here and now, I am guaranteed the life I have now, for it is what I currently have. As this is the only life I know for sure I am to have, I want to do everything I can to make sure I am experiencing reality on reality's terms, so, no, it is a far greater risk to suffer purgatory or hell in this life before death, and I am not one to discard my one guaranteed existence in favor of some idea of an afterlife that, according to all known evidence, most likely doesn't exist.

  38. #38
    The Mother of Loki Laufey's Avatar
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    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    MikeyLove the bible clearly states that homosexuality is wrong. And no it's not just the old testament you can find it in the new one as well (they have just taken the death penalty part out of it).

    If a gay person follows Christianity it must be one of the two:

    1. They consider their sexuality to be a sin. Self-hate.

    2. They pick and choose what to take from the religion and what not to. When you do that you might as well just be spiritual without organized religion.

  39. #39
    MikeyLove
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    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Quote Originally Posted by Laufey View Post
    MikeyLove the bible clearly states that homosexuality is wrong. And no it's not just the old testament you can find it in the new one as well (they have just taken the death penalty part out of it).

    If a gay person follows Christianity it must be one of the two:

    1. They consider their sexuality to be a sin. Self-hate.

    2. They pick and choose what to take from the religion and what not to. When you do that you might as well just be spiritual without organized religion.
    Are you a Fundamentalist?

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    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Are you number 1 or 2?

    If there is a third option please explain it to me.

    Once you have done that I will answer your question.

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    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Reply to Mariatenebre post #25. I believe that there should be a legal form of gay marriage. I am uncertain what I think about how the Catholic Church should address this.

    I believe that a fetus is a human and you do not. I don't think that we are going to change each others opinion.

  42. #42
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    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    It shouldn't be up to the government whether religious institutes bless gay marriages or not.

    The main thing is to allow same gender marriages by the law and also allow religious gay marriages to be a option if that institute wants to take that path.

    If some of these institutes want to show their true colors, that they will not bless gay marriages despite social and legal changes... then that's a good thing in my book. Christianities part in peoples daily life gets smaller and smaller with time mainly because it's on a different path from the general public. It continuing that way is a good thing in my book.

  43. #43
    Coward92
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    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Quote Originally Posted by FirmaFan View Post
    I reject the idea of sin as proposed by various religions. It is a non-existent ailment so I can be sold an imaginary cure. Sorry, not buying it.
    So do you think there are no sins at all, or do you think that sins exist?
    I think sins obviously exist, but I can accept if someone doesn't agree with the Church about them.
    Sins doesn't exist because there is a religion that says : "X activity is sinful, thus if you take part in it, you shall suffer in Y place of sufferin for Z eternities if you do not repent"

    Sins exist because there are things that you can only accomplish through wounding others. Killing is a sin. Most of the time. This is the easiest example of sin, but then there comes stealing. Stealing is a sin, because you take something from someone. You get something by damaging anothers life. Same goes for infidelity.
    It is the very nature of sin to be a selfish act.

  44. #44

    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Quote Originally Posted by FirmaFan View Post
    If you are only going to follow the teachings of the religion that agree with your conscience (by "putting your conscience first"), why not accept your conscience as your source of morality and abandon the religious doctrine that comes with all the immoral baggage that your conscience knows better than to not follow? If you are able to cherry-pick the good in religious doctrine and ignore the bad, you have already demonstrated yourself to be morally superior.
    HOW do you know it is your conscience when you are already under the mind-control of a cult?

    Surely you are already indoctrinated by the cult's dogma, and hence what you think is your conscience is really the dictates of the cult which you robotically follow. This more will explain the utter horrendous barbarity shown to women, children, and gay people, in the 16th century by members of the Christian cult who carried this horror out from orders by the highest authority of the cult. So what sense would it make to those doing so to ask them to act on their conscience? Because to them they were! Like the soldier will say he is just doing his duty.
    They were attempting to eradicate "evil" weren't they, or "impurity".
    Hitler and the Nazis were driven by this same irrational concept.

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    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coward92 View Post
    So do you think there are no sins at all, or do you think that sins exist?
    I think sins obviously exist, but I can accept if someone doesn't agree with the Church about them.
    Sins doesn't exist because there is a religion that says : "X activity is sinful, thus if you take part in it, you shall suffer in Y place of sufferin for Z eternities if you do not repent"

    Sins exist because there are things that you can only accomplish through wounding others. Killing is a sin. Most of the time. This is the easiest example of sin, but then there comes stealing. Stealing is a sin, because you take something from someone. You get something by damaging anothers life. Same goes for infidelity.
    It is the very nature of sin to be a selfish act.
    The word "sin" carries with it a lot of religious baggage, so much so that I tend to avoid using the term. In describing the various things you have mentioned, I tend to discuss them with respect to the ideas of morality.

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    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Quote Originally Posted by ludolfo View Post
    HOW do you know it is your conscience when you are already under the mind-control of a cult?

    Surely you are already indoctrinated by the cult's dogma, and hence what you think is your conscience is really the dictates of the cult which you robotically follow. This more will explain the utter horrendous barbarity shown to women, children, and gay people, in the 16th century by members of the Christian cult who carried this horror out from orders by the highest authority of the cult. So what sense would it make to those doing so to ask them to act on their conscience? Because to them they were! Like the soldier will say he is just doing his duty.
    They were attempting to eradicate "evil" weren't they, or "impurity".
    Hitler and the Nazis were driven by this same irrational concept.
    Morality, to an extent, is a subjective concept, and, yes, it is possible for a person to be so indoctrinated in an ideology that their sense of morality becomes completely skewed. I would say, however, that the ones who "truly" believe that committing acts the consequences of which would be very readily deemed "immoral" are acting morally are on the fringe, and would be severely outnumbered if not for the institutions that constantly instill commands that otherwise would not be followed. Check out the Milgram obedience experiments for demonstrations on how people come to commit actions they themselves would deem wrong because commands to do so are coming from figures of authority. It's frightening how easy it is to get a person to act against their moral conscience, even when fully aware of the action being "wrong", but it makes sense when thinking about the kinds of actions numerous people have taken like the kinds you described in your post.

  47. #47
    Coward92
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    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Quote Originally Posted by FirmaFan View Post
    The word "sin" carries with it a lot of religious baggage, so much so that I tend to avoid using the term. In describing the various things you have mentioned, I tend to discuss them with respect to the ideas of morality.
    Calling sins crimes would be misleading, because it would make it sounds that they are against the law. But in fact they are against morals. Sin is an expression of a certain set of actions, and just because the word itself appeared in a religious context you shouldn't throw it away.

    It would be like NOT using the medical knowledge gathered by the nazi doctors during the holocaust. It would be a waste.

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    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coward92 View Post
    Calling sins crimes would be misleading, because it would make it sounds that they are against the law. But in fact they are against morals.
    Yep. Pretty much what I said. I will discuss actions with regards to morality, calling them "sins" just isn't appropriate outside of religious context.

    Sin is an expression of a certain set of actions, and just because the word itself appeared in a religious context you shouldn't throw it away.

    It would be like NOT using the medical knowledge gathered by the nazi doctors during the holocaust. It would be a waste.
    It's not that the word "sin" appears in religious contexts; it's that, to many, and I would say, the majority, the word "sin" still today carries with it the religious meanings that I may want to avoid in certain discussions. The various actions you listed before are certainly morally reprehensible, but if I were to call them "sin" I would be invoking religious ideas (such as commandments from god) that tend to go along with the word that I would feel is unnecessary in certain conversations. I don't avoid using the word, I will use the word when appropriate, but I don't feel it can be used without giving the topic at hand a religious undertone. If I don't want to involve religious context in the conversation, the word "sin" is definitely something I'm going to avoid.

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    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?


    Because the whole aim is to "spread the good news"


    NEVER LISTEN TO A ONE SIDED STORY AND JUDGE.

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    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeyLove View Post
    You have a big tendency to think that all religious submission is either coerced, or involuntary, but as for me...it is absolutely Voluntary, and that is the kind of Submission that God wants. He does not want submission that is coerced or involuntary. And again, I reiterate the fact that my Bishop knows all about me being Gay, and the fact that he says that I need not change myself. Now, does that still make me self-loathing? I think not. I have absolutely no reasons to leave the Church founded by Christ. Yes, the church was founded that includes sinful leaders from St. Peter on up to Pope Benedict XVI. The leaders of the Orthodox Church are just as much a sinner as everyone else including me, and you....yes you too.
    Ok your Bishop knows that you are gay whop dee doo. Now does your Bishop and you personally believe that the only way for you to be spiritually right with your god is to be celibate and to deny your urges. Plus you said that homosexual orientation is caused by original sin and not only is that offensive (as is the concept of original sin) but it contradicts science as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by MikeyLove View Post
    It looks to me that you're claiming to be without any sin, something that no one may claim to be, not even me. It also seems that with all of your postings, that you are a Militant Atheist, and in denial of the Reality Of God existing in Heaven and on Earth. God is all around you, and in all of Creation. Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory is just at the threshold of Death. It is far better to suffer Purgatory or Hell in this Life before death, and if you want real proof of the life after death, then ask the Creator to show you, because Science in this matter will not give you the proof that you need.
    Everybody does things wrong what is a lie is that we are cursed to be sinful. Now all of the evidence shows that your god atleast is a human construct. Also no sacrificeing your happiness and living a Hellish life on Earth and choosing to be miserable and to deny who you are is not worth Heaven and no ammount of compensation is worth the misery and psychological ill of denying who you are and being miserable. Further more psychology says that you should not deny who you are and loath who you are. In fact it is the biggest scheme of all time. Make yourself miserable and servile on Earth to prepare for a nonexistan god's Heaven instead of making your own Heaven here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rickrock View Post
    Reply to Mariatenebre post #25. I believe that there should be a legal form of gay marriage. I am uncertain what I think about how the Catholic Church should address this.

    I believe that a fetus is a human and you do not. I don't think that we are going to change each others opinion.
    Ok well atleast you support gay marriage, we agree on that.

    Next it is not me that says a fetus is not a person it is science. You can however choose to deny science and live under false mysticism but you forefeit your right to be a rational person.
    Last edited by Mariatenebre; January 29th, 2013 at 12:31 AM.

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