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  1. #101
    MikeyLove
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    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Quote Originally Posted by ludolfo View Post
    and Brian Smith, it seems to me you thinks you know it all, and are 'teaching' us what history really was. Seems a bit arrogant to me. You provide no sources for these 'truth's you are expounding here.

    Actually all of this you are putting out is your interpretation. I hope you can accept this?


    What is history but a fable agreed upon?
    Napoleon Bonaparte

    What matters now is Christian homophopbia, and how the myth of Christianity has caused so much misery in the world. You miss all this out in your praise of it. I am not accepting your version of history. It does not gell with mine.

    Don't you think that he might be expressing his opinions, just like you and me, even though we may not agree on everything. At least you can go with the friendly Google to do some research on what he is saying. I have to admit that he does make some good points.

  2. #102

    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    I am also just expressing my opinion also. I in no way whatsoever am suggesting he shouldn't express his. But it could appear that what he is claiming is 'it'--'the real low-down of history', and I don't think it is. For a start 'paganism' was diverse. It isn't 'paganism' versus the Church, and also the Church has many denominations also.
    There is a scholar who claims he follows authentic Gnosticism, John Lamb Lash, who is scathing about Christianity because he says it was so very violent and suppressive against the Pagan Mysteries. I agree with some of what he says regarding his criticism of Christianity, but not his making out the Gnostic myth is THE truth we now must look to. I also think there is a big difference between his meaning of 'learned' Paganism and the more rural indigenous 'countrydwelling' (a definition of 'paganism') kind. So I am just saying it is not just 'paganism' one side and 'Christianity' on the other.
    I am more interested in NOW--but of course also understand the important of knowing roots. This is why I like to look at etymology of terms even, because often we use words and are blind to their roots and how their meaning has been hijacked by propagandists.

    I have just done a little Googling Mikeylove and found this:
    20 Reasons to Abandon Christianity
    by Chaz Bufe


    Table of Contents

    Christianity is based on fear
    Christianity preys on the innocent
    Christianity is based on dishonesty
    Christianity is extremely egocentric
    Christianity breeds arrogance, a chosen-people mentality
    Christianity breeds authoritarianism
    Christianity is cruel
    Christianity is anti-intellectual, anti-scientific
    Christianity has a morbid, unhealthy preoccupation with sex
    Christianity produces sexual misery
    Christianity has an exceedingly narrow, legalistic view of morality
    Christianity encourages acceptance of real evils while focusing on imaginary evils
    Christianity depreciates the natural world
    Christianity models hierarchical, authoritarian organization
    Christianity sanctions slavery
    Christianity is misogynistic
    Christianity is homophobic
    The Bible is not a reliable guide to Christ's teachings
    The Bible is riddled with contradictions
    Christianity borrowed its central myths and ceremonies from other ancient religions

    1. Christianity is based on fear. While today there are liberal clergy who preach a gospel of love, they ignore the bulk of Christian teachings, not to mention the bulk of Christian history. Throughout almost its entire time on Earth, the motor driving Christianity has been—in addition to the fear of death—fear of the devil and fear of hell. One can only imagine how potent these threats seemed prior to the rise of science and rational thinking, which have largely robbed these bogeys of their power to inspire terror. But even today, the existence of the devil and hell are cardinal doctrinal tenets of almost all Christian creeds, and many fundamentalist preachers still openly resort to terrorizing their followers with lurid, sadistic portraits of the suffering of nonbelievers after death. This is not an attempt to convince through logic and reason; it is not an attempt to appeal to the better nature of individuals; rather, it is an attempt to whip the flock into line through threats, through appeals to a base part of human nature—fear and cowardice. ff
    THAT is also Christian history. I trained as an artist and whilst doing so I met two middle-aged women who didn't know each other, and both had had mastectomies, and both without any lead from me, claimed their disease was brought about though Catholic guilt!

    I notice in the list of contents is presumes there actually was a 'Jesus Christ'. So I also question that premise, because there exists no historical evidence for that assertion. I cannot ignore that. Like I have said elsewhere, maybe not here, that say someone experiences seeing 'Jesus' in a Near Death Experience, or psychedelic experience, etc, I am not going to discount their experience. That is the way they are interpreting it, and these experiences can be deeply healing. But I am also going to question them, and I feel this inspires me and others to go deeper. The mystery is depthless.
    Last edited by ludolfo; February 11th, 2013 at 07:36 AM.

  3. #103
    MikeyLove
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    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Quote Originally Posted by ludolfo View Post
    I am also just expressing my opinion also. I in no way whatsoever am suggesting he shouldn't express his. But it could appear that what he is claiming is 'it'--'the real low-down of history', and I don't think it is. For a start 'paganism' was diverse. It isn't 'paganism' versus the Church, and also the Church has many denominations also.
    There is a scholar who claims he follows authentic Gnosticism, John Lamb Lash, who is scathing about Christianity because he says it was so very violent and suppressive against the Pagan Mysteries. I agree with some of what he says regarding his criticism of Christianity, but not his making out the Gnostic myth is THE truth we now must look to. I also think there is a big difference between his meaning of 'learned' Paganism and the more rural indigenous kind. So I am just saying it is not just a countrydwelling' 'paganism' on one side and 'Christianity' on the other.
    I am more interested in NOW--but of course also understand the important of knowing roots. This is why I like to look at etymology of terms even, because often we use words and are blind to their roots and how their meaning has been hijacked by propagandists.

    I have just done a little Googling Mikeylove and found this:


    THAT is also Christian history. I trained as an artist and whilst doing so I met two middle-aged women who didn't know each other, and both had had mastectomies, and both without any lead from me, claimed their disease was brought about though Catholic guilt!

    I notice in the list of contents is presumes there actually was a 'Jesus Christ'. So I also question that premise, because there exists no historical evidence for that assertion. I cannot ignore that. Like I have said elsewhere, maybe not here, that say someone experiences seeing 'Jesus' in a Near Death Experience, or psychedelic experience, etc, I am not going to discount their experience. That is the way they are interpreting it, and these experiences can be deeply healing. But I am also going to question them, and I feel this inspires me and others to go deeper. The mystery is depthless.
    Gnosticism does not give you the truth on anything. The teachings of the Church is guide by the Holy Spirit, not Man. The core teachings of the Catholic Church cannot be changed by any Man in the course of History passed, present, and future.

  4. #104
    Porn Star Brian Smith's Avatar
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    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Quote Originally Posted by ludolfo View Post
    and Brian Smith, it seems to me you thinks you know it all, and are 'teaching' us what history really was. Seems a bit arrogant to me. You provide no sources for these 'truth's you are expounding here.
    Well, I realize that most people aren't interested in reading about the history of the Khazars, but I think it is relevant that the Khazars actually sought out converting their people to an Abrahamic religion in order to improve their political standing, and I think it is relevant that the Tengrism that they converted from was not always a very nice religion in actual practice.

    And there were other major religious groups that were competing for dominance. They were often cruel, often hideously so. The Christians were just a major player in a very filthy game. They didn't invent it. In a kinder world, they might have been less cruel.

    What matters now is Christian homophopbia, and how the myth of Christianity has caused so much misery in the world. You miss all this out in your praise of it. I am not accepting your version of history. It does not gell with mine.
    I acknowledge that the Catholic Church has often been on the wrong side of history, though. I don't refute your views, per se. I just have a different context for understanding the subject.

  5. #105

    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    And it is so because of its mythology is my context:

    The Apostles Creed

    I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth.

    And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried; he descended into hell; the third day he rose again from the dead; he ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

    I believe in the Holy Ghost; the holy catholic Church; the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and the life everlasting.

    AMEN.

    The Nicene Creed

    We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen.

    We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father; through him all things were made.

    For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven, he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man.

    For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried.

    On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

    He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.

    We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father [and the Son], who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified.

    He has spoken through the Prophets.

    We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
    We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
    We look for the resurrection of the dead,
    and the life of the world to come. Amen.

    The Chalcedonian Creed (Definition)

    Following, then, the holy fathers, we unite in teaching all men to confess the one and only Son, our Lord Jesus Christ. This selfsame one is perfect both in deity and in humanness; this selfsame one is also actually God and actually man, with a rational soul and a body. He is of the same reality as God as far as his deity is concerned and of the same reality as we ourselves as far as his humanness is concerned; thus like us in all respects, sin only excepted. Before time began he was begotten of the Father, in respect of his deity, and now in these "last days," for us and behalf of our salvation, this selfsame one was born of Mary the virgin, who is God-bearer in respect of his humanness.

    We also teach that we apprehend this one and only Christ-Son, Lord, only-begotten in two natures; and we do this without confusing the two natures, without transmuting one nature into the other, without dividing them into two separate categories, without contrasting them according to area or function. The distinctiveness of each nature is not nullified by the union. Instead, the "properties" of each nature are conserved and both natures concur in one "person" and in one reality. They are not divided or cut into two persons, but are together the one and only and only-begotten Word of God, the Lord Jesus Christ. Thus have the prophets of old testified; thus the Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us; thus the Symbol of Fathers has handed down to us.
    source

    This is mythology. Do you agree?
    Last edited by ludolfo; February 11th, 2013 at 10:14 AM.

  6. #106
    Coward92
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    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Quote Originally Posted by ludolfo View Post
    and Brian Smith, it seems to me you thinks you know it all, and are 'teaching' us what history really was. Seems a bit arrogant to me. You provide no sources for these 'truth's you are expounding here.

    Actually all of this you are putting out is your interpretation. I hope you can accept this?


    What is history but a fable agreed upon?
    Napoleon Bonaparte

    What matters now is Christian homophopbia, and how the myth of Christianity has caused so much misery in the world. You miss all this out in your praise of it. I am not accepting your version of history. It does not gell with mine.
    Wow... Because you never act like Mr. Know-It-All. Arrogant eh?

    And just by the way I think if we are talking about his very own people we can trust his expertise about their history, you know.

    And let me ask you this:
    Only Christian homophobia matters to you?
    What about homphobia amongst atheists? What about homphobia amongst the members of other religions?
    Why don't you confront Islam?

    Whether Crhistianity is a good influence is debatable, but I think saying that it is plain wrong or plain good is stupid and tells of very limited immature perspective.

  7. #107
    MikeyLove
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    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Quote Originally Posted by ludolfo View Post
    And it is so because of its mythology is my context:

    source

    This is mythology. Do you agree?
    Nope! it is exactly what all Christians are supposed to believe in with out any doubts whatsoever.

  8. #108
    Porn Star Brian Smith's Avatar
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    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeyLove View Post
    Nope! it is exactly what all Christians are supposed to believe in with out any doubts whatsoever.
    Well, that depends on how far you are inclined to take the universalist doctrine, and there are movements, like the Moravians, that hold the belief that all souls will eventually be reconciled somehow to God.

    Really, I strongly recommend looking into the Moravians. Their belief is essentially that God will get everything sorted out somehow, and their motive for worship is to rejoice in how wonderful this is. They are also a charming combination of old-time values and a traditional, time-honored liberal streak. They are strong believers in education. In college towns, their entire congregations are doctors, professors and other members of the intelligentsia. They tend to be really keen folk, and I actually genuinely admire them.

  9. #109

    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeyLove View Post
    Nope! it is exactly what all Christians are supposed to believe in with out any doubts whatsoever.
    I was actually asking Brian, but all can answer this and you have--not that I am surprised with your answer. I know you believe it like it is THE 'truth'. Like you say you are "supposed" to believe it and have no "doubts". I see this as very rigid, and it seems you have given up all your freedom to question to this chosen belief system.
    So, for anyone to place a little doubt in you must be seen by you as close to your "Devil" or the very Devil himself, right?


  10. #110
    MikeyLove
    Guest

    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Quote Originally Posted by ludolfo View Post
    I was actually asking Brian, but all can answer this and you have--not that I am surprised with your answer. I know you believe it like it is THE 'truth'. Like you say you are "supposed" to believe it and have no "doubts". I see this as very rigid, and it seems you have given up all your freedom to question to this chosen belief system.
    So, for anyone to place a little doubt in you must be seen by you as close to your "Devil" or the very Devil himself, right?

    Wrong! I will have nothing to do with the Father of all lies, Satan, Lucifer, the Devil, whatever you like to call him.

  11. #111
    JUB Addict FirmaFan's Avatar
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    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeyLove View Post
    Nope! it is exactly what all Christians are supposed to believe in with out any doubts whatsoever.
    I can not even begin to comprehend how a person could be so content with not thinking for themselves. To say something like this is to check your personal intellect at the door. Doubt and question is what advances knowledge; unquestioning obedience only propagates the ideas given by authority, regardless of merit or truth.

  12. #112

    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeyLove View Post
    Wrong! I will have nothing to do with the Father of all lies, Satan, Lucifer, the Devil, whatever you like to call him.
    Mikey, have you ever actually read the read the bible? The 'father of all lies' and falsehood, is clearly the old testament's premier deity. As early as Genesis chapter 2 he begins lying to Adam and Eve, and as the various tales of the OT unfold the true depths of his dishonest nature are revealed.

  13. #113
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coward92 View Post
    Wow... Because you never act like Mr. Know-It-All. Arrogant eh?

    And just by the way I think if we are talking about his very own people we can trust his expertise about their history, you know.

    And let me ask you this:
    Only Christian homophobia matters to you?
    What about homphobia amongst atheists? What about homphobia amongst the members of other religions?
    Why don't you confront Islam?

    Whether Crhistianity is a good influence is debatable, but I think saying that it is plain wrong or plain good is stupid and tells of very limited immature perspective.
    Homophobia among Christians comes about largely as a result of Christian teachings from the likes of the nearly departed Herr Ratzinger, who holds that being born naturally gay is actually "objectively disordered" and that the highest sign of character in a gay person is to sacrifice and suppress the inherent and natural potential to find fulfilment in the company of another gay person, allowing the emotional and physical capacity for love to wither into a hollow shell, in the name of obedience to an imaginary divinity. It is contemptible.

    In comparison, no atheist philosopher has ever said "There is no God, thus homosexuality is wrong."
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  14. #114
    Coward92
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    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Homophobia among Christians comes about largely as a result of Christian teachings from the likes of the nearly departed Herr Ratzinger, who holds that being born naturally gay is actually "objectively disordered" and that the highest sign of character in a gay person is to sacrifice and suppress the inherent and natural potential to find fulfilment in the company of another gay person, allowing the emotional and physical capacity for love to wither into a hollow shell, in the name of obedience to an imaginary divinity. It is contemptible.

    In comparison, no atheist philosopher has ever said "There is no God, thus homosexuality is wrong."
    You still don't get my point.
    Homophobia is not a religion-specific phenomena. It would exist even is there were no religions at all.
    Atheists craft their own "arguments" to justify their hatred for homosexuality and gay people.

    Plus we are not talking about philosophers here, we are talking about simple everyday normal people.

    I however agree, that homophobia is strengthened by the Catholic Church, I just hate the naivety which makes some people believe that if the Catholic Church would disappear all their problems would be suddenly solved. They wouldn't.
    People would still hate gays.

  15. #115
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coward92 View Post
    You still don't get my point.
    Homophobia is not a religion-specific phenomena. It would exist even is there were no religions at all.
    Atheists craft their own "arguments" to justify their hatred for homosexuality and gay people.

    Plus we are not talking about philosophers here, we are talking about simple everyday normal people.

    I however agree, that homophobia is strengthened by the Catholic Church, I just hate the naivety which makes some people believe that if the Catholic Church would disappear all their problems would be suddenly solved. They wouldn't.
    People would still hate gays.
    Okay let's talk about something else then: driving a car.

    Within Catholicism, there is no creed that obliges Catholics to hold the steering wheel at the "10 and 2" position. Nor revelation about how long to indicate before a lane change. Nothing from the hierarchy or the most careful thinkers of the church is directly related to the functional task of driving. "God is my Co-pilot" bumper stickers on the back of rusted-out Fords do not count.

    Similarly, there is no atheist philosopher or writer who has ever said "There is no God thus it follows that we must always shoulder-check." Again, a Volkswagen with an "Evolve Fish" bumper sticker is ruled out.

    We can I hope agree that the particulars of driving are derived from human experience in the last hundred years or so about how best to maintain order and safety on the roads. Recognition of this should be fairly uncontroversial amongst both atheists and Catholics, and they can agree on what the rules of the road are, and that neither of their respective views on theological questions really have much to do with it..

    A position on the relative merits or perils of homosexuality is different. An atheist cannot draw any inference about homosexuality from the absence of any kind of god, other than perhaps that whatever the merits of homosexuality, the sodomites will not be going to imaginary hell.

    A Catholic however, if he is a conscientious follower of Church teachings, ought to feel opposed to homosexuality on the basis of scripture, tradition, and pastoral guidance, all of which are sources of "knowledge" (smirk) about what is wrong with the gays and their tragic, potentially sinful, objective disorder. A Catholic cannot claim his faith is irrelevant to the question: the bigotry is embedded in the religion itself. Quite unlike atheism, and quite unlike other questions such as the proper method of driving.

    Incidentally I chose "philosophers" as being the closest thing to "cardinals" within their respective fields, for the purpose of pointing out that people exercising greater authority also have greater responsibility, and in that regard the cardinals fail miserably for the human suffering they have endorsed and provoked. The argument applies to "lay catholics" and "lay atheists" as well.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  16. #116
    Sex God Mariatenebre's Avatar
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    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeyLove View Post
    Gnosticism does not give you the truth on anything. The teachings of the Church is guide by the Holy Spirit, not Man. The core teachings of the Catholic Church cannot be changed by any Man in the course of History passed, present, and future.
    The Catholic Church has changed their teachings on many things from limbo, to priestly celibacy. Hell Christianity is merely corrupted Judaism mixed with Paganism. So your religion has changed greatly over time. Christianity has had human founders and nothing to do with any holy spirit. In fact we know the history and development of your religion well.
    Quote Originally Posted by MikeyLove View Post
    Nope! it is exactly what all Christians are supposed to believe in with out any doubts whatsoever.
    Except history, science and anthrology shows that your religion has as much truth as the Greek myths. This also shows the cult like nature of your religion are you are supposed to believe it without any questioning.
    Quote Originally Posted by MikeyLove View Post
    Wrong! I will have nothing to do with the Father of all lies, Satan, Lucifer, the Devil, whatever you like to call him.
    Satan is a perfect example of the human construct of your religion. In Judaism Satan was not a fallen angel but an angel who served Yahweh as someone who tested mortals. It was only when Christians came about did they take Satan and make him into a bad guy. Also Yahweh in the Bible does far more harm, atrocity and murder then Satan every did. Of course this does not surprise me considering that he is the war god of the Canaanites.
    Last edited by Mariatenebre; February 11th, 2013 at 06:49 PM.

  17. #117
    Porn Star Brian Smith's Avatar
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    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Christianity is actually pretty diverse, but most Americans nowadays are more Platonist than Christian. To assume that "Platonism" is a secular doctrine would be a failure in the proper understanding of Platonism. A true Platonist, who followed the teachings of the Platonist and Neoplatonist philosophers to the letter, would barely be distinguishable from a modern Christian.

    There are also, of course, those who live more according to the Stoic tradition. The belief held by the Stoics was that virtuous behavior brought about spiritual happiness. They believed that the universe was made of a reasoning substance. They did not think of it so much as "God" but more the way we talk about "nature" as if it were a thinking substance somehow.

    However, there are surviving relics of Olympianism in our culture. For example, there are still people who think of death in terms of Thanatos, and Thanatos appears very often in our art. Furthermore, Catholic demonology is littered with numerous old pagan gods, including many from The Levant. We don't admit to it and deride it as "mythology," but we still believe in and fear the old gods.

    We still observe the idea of wishing wells or fountains. This is actually of Celtic origin, but the idea was also popular in Norse culture. Odin supposedly sacrificed his right eye for wisdom by casting it into a well. Today we routinely throw pennies into fountains, hoping that the small sacrifice will result in some degree of good fortune. When you do things like this, try to understand that you are continuing an ancient tradition of ritual sacrifice that has been around since before human memory.

    It's derided as "superstition" and treated as backward and foolish, but that's because the Christians simply couldn't get rid of it. Oh, they tried to stamp it out. They tried to get people to realize that these pagan superstitions were backward and silly nonsense. A lot of people don't realize it today, but medieval Christians really thought of themselves as very enlightened and modern, and they made it their mission in life to educate all of our poor, backward pagan ancestors. People still do these things, though. They believe in these things. It surpasses their belief in God in how much it affects their behavior. This is the true religion of the common people.

    It's not that Christianity has changed so much. It is more that we haven't changed as much as we fancy. Our culture survives, and what a tragedy it would have been to let it die.
    Last edited by Brian Smith; February 12th, 2013 at 09:41 AM.

  18. #118

    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    It's derided as "superstition" and treated as backward and foolish, but that's because the Christians simply couldn't get rid of it. Oh, they tried to stamp it out. They tried to get people to realize that these pagan superstitions were backward and silly nonsense.
    You say "we" more than several times so I'm assuming you identify with the Christian religion? You are part of the Church and follow its creed?
    You make it out--give the image--of these poor Christians trying to stamp out 'superstition'...? And replace it with what?

  19. #119
    Porn Star Brian Smith's Avatar
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    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Quote Originally Posted by ludolfo View Post
    You say "we" more than several times so I'm assuming you identify with the Christian religion?
    No, though I was raised United Methodist.

    You make it out--give the image--of these poor Christians trying to stamp out 'superstition'...? And replace it with what?
    Christianity, which was viewed by its adherents as a much more rational and scientific-minded religion. I was trying to explain how measures such as the Capitulato de partibus Saxoniae did not really succeed, as intended, in wiping out paganism. In fact, these old pagan beliefs still flourish in our culture. A culture is a hard thing to kill.

  20. #120

    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    but the reverence for springs, and nature in general, is far more ancient than Saxony. Do you think that experiencing springs, and hills, trees, and rivers, and nature as sacred, is superstition?
    I know that most Christians will often attack 'paganistic' love for nature using their cliche "love the creator not his creation". Their premise being there is a duality between a --usually masculine-- 'creator' and 'his' 'creation'
    Last edited by ludolfo; February 12th, 2013 at 11:42 AM.

  21. #121
    Coward92
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    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Okay let's talk about something else then: driving a car.

    Within Catholicism, there is no creed that obliges Catholics to hold the steering wheel at the "10 and 2" position. Nor revelation about how long to indicate before a lane change. Nothing from the hierarchy or the most careful thinkers of the church is directly related to the functional task of driving. "God is my Co-pilot" bumper stickers on the back of rusted-out Fords do not count.

    Similarly, there is no atheist philosopher or writer who has ever said "There is no God thus it follows that we must always shoulder-check." Again, a Volkswagen with an "Evolve Fish" bumper sticker is ruled out.

    We can I hope agree that the particulars of driving are derived from human experience in the last hundred years or so about how best to maintain order and safety on the roads. Recognition of this should be fairly uncontroversial amongst both atheists and Catholics, and they can agree on what the rules of the road are, and that neither of their respective views on theological questions really have much to do with it..

    A position on the relative merits or perils of homosexuality is different. An atheist cannot draw any inference about homosexuality from the absence of any kind of god, other than perhaps that whatever the merits of homosexuality, the sodomites will not be going to imaginary hell.

    A Catholic however, if he is a conscientious follower of Church teachings, ought to feel opposed to homosexuality on the basis of scripture, tradition, and pastoral guidance, all of which are sources of "knowledge" (smirk) about what is wrong with the gays and their tragic, potentially sinful, objective disorder. A Catholic cannot claim his faith is irrelevant to the question: the bigotry is embedded in the religion itself. Quite unlike atheism, and quite unlike other questions such as the proper method of driving.

    Incidentally I chose "philosophers" as being the closest thing to "cardinals" within their respective fields, for the purpose of pointing out that people exercising greater authority also have greater responsibility, and in that regard the cardinals fail miserably for the human suffering they have endorsed and provoked. The argument applies to "lay catholics" and "lay atheists" as well.
    Understood.
    It makes sense.

  22. #122
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    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Quote Originally Posted by ludolfo View Post
    but the reverence for springs, and nature in general, is far more ancient than Saxony.
    That is what I was saying, yes. It goes back to before the memory of history.

    Do you think that experiencing springs, and hills, trees, and rivers, and nature as sacred, is superstition?
    Much of what we regard as "superstition" is composed of the remnants of our ancestral faith. They were quite serious about it. Even the belief that wood sorrel is associated with good fortune is based on the teachings of the Druids, and this was linked heavily with their belief that 3 was an important number. Wood sorrel can also be used to make a nice dessert.

    I know that most Christians will often attack 'paganistic' love for nature using their cliche "love the creator not his creation". Their premise being there is a duality between a --usually masculine-- 'creator' and 'his' 'creation'
    But it is pagan! If you have Celtic ancestry, your ancestors worshiped trees. They revered trees. This may be true of many cultures, but the Celts had an amazing number of beliefs about trees. Therefore, they are quite right.

  23. #123

    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    I never meant it wasn't pagan. But whose side are you on? Do you agree with that typical Christian accusation against paganistic reverence for nature as loving creation more than its creator?
    Where do you stand?

  24. #124
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    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Quote Originally Posted by ludolfo View Post
    I never meant it wasn't pagan. But whose side are you on? Do you agree with that typical Christian accusation against paganistic reverence for nature as loving creation more than its creator?
    In the Hindu faith, there are two kinds of divine beings, one of which are devas, the other of which are asuras. The devas also are the "younger gods," and they are considered to be in conflict with the "older gods," the asuras. In the Hindu faith, asuras are power-craving beings, not necessarily evil but in a way sinister, and the devas are considered to be the proper maintainers of the realms. However, the Zoroastrian religion regards their ahuras as the true, good gods, and they regard the "shining ones," the daevas, as wicked and troublesome creatures.

    Where do you stand?
    I don't take sides in conflicts between gods or lovers.

  25. #125

    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    well lovers maybe, they are flesh and blood and you can see and smell them, but what do you mean by 'gods'?

  26. #126
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    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Quote Originally Posted by ludolfo View Post
    well lovers maybe, they are flesh and blood and you can see and smell them, but what do you mean by 'gods'?
    If you did not know which they were, then why did you ask where I stood in their dispute?

    Like Thomas Jefferson, I stand with Epicurus. Supposedly, Epicurus once said, "Why should I fear death? If I am, death is not. If death is, I am not. Why should I fear that which cannot exist when I do?"

    Like Epicurus, I am at peace with my mortal life, so what need have I of feuds between divinities?

  27. #127

    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    It was a question? If someone asks me a question, I would try and answer and not reply with a question.

    You stand with the ancient aristocratic philosopher Epicurus? So do you then you must also embrace modern Physicalism?
    Physicalism: A False View of the World: There is no generally accepted accurate ism-word to describe the dominant, modern, secular (non-religious) view of the world. "Materialism" comes close but "matter" as understood in modern physics is far less "material" than was previously thought. Materialism in the strict sense is the view that only what is material is real, where material means: composed of matter. But what is matter?”#
    “Physicalists can talk as much as they like about neural structures, resonant patterns of brain activity and the like, but in fact they have no explanation for the "emergence" of consciousness from "complex interconnections of physical entities within the brain." A physicalist also chooses to believe, that consciousness "emerges" from complex networks of neurons, but is usually not aware that they have chosen to believe."

    I am not at peace because I see so many people being exploited by false myths and believing in them, and this effects everything including myself.
    Last edited by ludolfo; February 14th, 2013 at 04:24 AM.

  28. #128
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    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Quote Originally Posted by ludolfo View Post
    It was a question? If someone asks me a question, I would try and answer and not reply with a question.
    Answers are places where the ordinary bird perches to sleep. The albatross, being a philosopher, sleeps on the wing.

    You know, I used to feel very clever over the fact that I was an atheist. I, unlike most people, had not been sucked-in by the illusion. I had broken ranks with the flock and learned to see the world as it truly is. However, I eventually came to realize that there was such a thing as a Christian who was more knowledgeable, more clever and more mature than I was. Now, I spent a while trying to understand how an otherwise intelligent person could believe in something that was so obviously dumb.

    It struck me that I had underestimated the true depth of theological thought. I became aware of how incomplete my education really was. I therefore endeavored to spend a while honing my understanding of this particular branch of human thought. I wanted to really get into the heads of these thinkers. I wanted to understand what made them tick.

    In time, I discovered that most Christians do not think this deeply about their spirituality. I thought, "what a shame. They have such a wondrous world in here, yet they ignore it. They go about their bourgeois lives and never really have a truly spiritual thought. How very tragic." It is like going through your entire life without ever having seen art or heard music.

    Well, at this point in my life, I have gotten to be far too flighty to really take stands on things, so the question as to where I stand is a non sequitur.

    You stand with the ancient aristocratic philosopher Epicurus?
    They were all aristocratic, and I prefer to think of him as a good-humored and mischievous professor. I would not say that I am governed by him, though.

    So do you then you must also embrace modern Physicalism?
    As a matter of fact, I fuck it.

    I am not at peace because I see so many people being exploited by false myths and believing in them, and this effects everything including myself.
    If we did away with the false beliefs, though, we would still have the bad habits that led to them. If all you did was take away religion, it would only be a matter of time before some clever man were to decide that the Sun revolves around the Earth, and people would go around believing that only those silly and primitive Christians believe that the Earth revolves around the Sun. How droll!

    On the other hand, if the habits were changed, the false beliefs would melt away without any further assistance. The best way of dealing with a Christian who is determined to discuss religion, my friend, is to make pleasant conversation about theology. For example, I would rather a Christian be educated in the history of Hussite teachings, the philosophical underpinnings of the Charismatic movement, or the fine distinctions between preterism and historicism than have him become knowledgeable in the sciences.

    A person who has learned to think needs little help in realizing that certain ideas are, to be charitable, asinine. What Christians need to learn to think about, though, is Christianity. They can always study biology, physics or neuroscience if they have a mind to. Once you have empowered the Christian to think in new ways about his faith, you have fledged a new thinker, and he can work out for himself which way the wind blows.
    Last edited by Brian Smith; February 14th, 2013 at 10:06 AM.

  29. #129

    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    I didn't know albatrosses were philosophers? What an awful thought.

    In time, I discovered that most Christians do not think this deeply about their spirituality. I thought, "what a shame. They have such a wondrous world in here, yet they ignore it. They go about their bourgeois lives and never really have a truly spiritual thought. How very tragic." It is like going through your entire life without ever having seen art or heard music.
    I don't think it was untill John Marco Allegro, and his extraordinary controversial book The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross, that we could at last see that spirituality is always connected with mind-altering vegetation. Twas so in the Goddess religion, paganism, and also secretly in Judeo Christianity, Islam, and Eastern religions, and of course shamanism.

    I consider people going through their lives without psychedelic experience in the same way. Indigenous peoples have called these vegetations sacred medicine. Have you ever experienced psychedelics yourself Brian?

    If we did away with the false beliefs, though, we would still have the bad habits that led to them. If all you did was take away religion, it would only be a matter of time before some clever man were to decide that the Sun revolves around the Earth, and people would go around believing that only those silly and primitive Christians believe that the Earth revolves around the Sun. How droll!
    Hmm not sure if I gets you there. It was Galileo who tried to inform the Christians about the Earth revolving round the sun and was arrested for it because --the story goes--they refused to look through his telescope,
    Am I trying to "do away" with false beliefs? I am rather questioning them.
    The best way of dealing with a Christian who is determined to discuss religion, my friend, is to make pleasant conversation about theology. For example, I would rather a Christian be educated in the history of Hussite teachings, the philosophical underpinnings of the Charismatic movement, or the fine distinctions between preterism and historicism than have him become knowledgeable in the sciences.
    We would get nowhere! Being direct there has to be an element of shock. Exploring reality can be shocking. Threatening, beliefs, worldviews can be painful, and the same goes for me---people challenge me also. If I for example suggest that 'Jesus' or 'Chrestos' was originally a sacrament, and mind-altering fungi for some all pleasantries will go out of the window. Allegro was ostracized by Christians and his 'colleagues' till the day he died.

    I do not discount visions OF 'Jesus'. I am very aware the enormous imaginative power of this 'archetype' using Jungian terms. However, a person could have an image of the Lord of Death (Hinduism), or any manner of thing also. I like to look deeper into what this may mean than pretend and preach an 'only through Jesus' type of dogma. I question all of that and think it limited and harmful---toxic.
    Last edited by ludolfo; February 14th, 2013 at 04:01 PM.

  30. #130
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    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Quote Originally Posted by ludolfo View Post
    I didn't know albatrosses were philosophers? What an awful thought.
    Well, so are cats if that makes you feel any better.

    I don't think it was untill John Marco Allegro, and his extraordinary controversial book The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross, that we could at last see that spirituality is always connected with mind-altering vegetation. Twas so in the Goddess religion, paganism, and also secretly in Judeo Christianity, Islam, and Eastern religions, and of course shamanism.

    I consider people going through their lives without psychedelic experience in the same way. Indigenous peoples have called these vegetations sacred medicine. Have you ever experienced psychedelics yourself Brian?
    I have always been curious about LSD, actually.

    Hmm not sure if I gets you there. It was Galileo who tried to inform the Christians about the Earth revolving round the sun and was arrested for it because --the story goes--they refused to look through his telescope,
    Am I trying to "do away" with false beliefs? I am rather questioning them.
    Galileo was a student of Epicurus, too.

    We would get nowhere!
    It depends on where you want to go. I would rather have Christians who think than atheists who don't.

    Being direct there has to be an element of shock. Exploring reality can be shocking. Threatening, beliefs, worldviews can be painful, and the same goes for me---people challenge me also.
    Oh, that's why people find it shocking when I rapidly change positions in a discussion. They have gotten used to the idea that one ought to cling to one's beliefs and ideas with a white-knuckle grip, and somehow, if you relinquish that grip, you are compromising who you are somehow. I come across as flighty.

    If I for example suggest that 'Jesus' or 'Chrestos' was originally a sacrament, and mind-altering fungi for some all pleasantries will go out of the window. Allegro was ostracized by Christians and his 'colleagues' till the day he died.

    I do not discount visions OF 'Jesus'. I am very aware the enormous imaginative power of this 'archetype' using Jungian terms. However, a person could have an image of the Lord of Death (Hinduism), or any manner of thing also. I like to look deeper into what this may mean than pretend and preach an 'only through Jesus' type of dogma. I question all of that and think it limited and harmful---toxic.
    Oh, I remember an English course I took ten years ago where I learned about Jungian archetypes. It was very interesting.

  31. #131

    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Unfortunately the software here doesn't let you languidly re-edit, so if your over the 10 minute mark and want to re-edit you canot, so I will have to put in a better composed presentation of what I said here:
    Well, so are cats if that makes you feel any better.
    I am not mad on philosophy. I think it , like dodgy beliefs, is a root cause of the trouble we're in. As you say the ancient philosophers of Greece were mainly aristocrats, and many of them, like Aristotle, supported slavery! Also hand in hand as usua follows this mindsetl would denigrate women, and of course nature, for nature has nearly always been mythically associated with the Feminine.

    And the 'philo' pf 'philo-sophy' meaning 'love' was more so love of the philosophers own thinking-process which becomes cut-off from nature. This was so for Plato of course, and so I cannot look at amazingly earth-spiritual animals like birds and cats as 'philosophers'. They are far deeper than that.

    When thinking is self-referential, and becomes identified with itself--as feeling somehow superior-- to the detriment of the whole organism, senses, and its interrelationship with nature in all of its deep mystery, which is objectified as being inferior-- is when it becomes toxic just as can happen with mythology.

  32. #132
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    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Quote Originally Posted by ludolfo View Post
    Unfortunately the software here doesn't let you languidly re-edit, so if your over the 10 minute mark and want to re-edit you canot, so I will have to put in a better composed presentation of what I said here:


    I am not mad on philosophy. I think it , like dodgy beliefs, is a root cause of the trouble we're in. As you say the ancient philosophers of Greece were mainly aristocrats, and many of them, like Aristotle, supported slavery! Also hand in hand as usua follows this mindsetl would denigrate women, and of course nature, for nature has nearly always been mythically associated with the Feminine.

    And the 'philo' pf 'philo-sophy' meaning 'love' was more so love of the philosophers own thinking-process which becomes cut-off from nature. This was so for Plato of course, and so I cannot look at amazingly earth-spiritual animals like birds and cats as 'philosophers'. They are far deeper than that.

    When thinking is self-referential, and becomes identified with itself--as feeling somehow superior-- to the detriment of the whole organism, senses, and its interrelationship with nature in all of its deep mystery, which is objectified as being inferior-- is when it becomes toxic just as can happen with mythology.
    Phylosophy is the mother of all sciences, just saying.

  33. #133
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    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Quote Originally Posted by ludolfo View Post
    I am not mad on philosophy. I think it too, like dodgy beliefs is a root cause of the trouble. S you say the ancient philosophers of Greece were mainly aristocrats and many of them, like Aristotle, supported slavery! Also hand in had as usual would denigrate women, and of course then nature. And the 'philo' meaning 'love' was more so love of their own thinking-process which becomes cut-off from the real world. This was so for Plato of course, and so I cannot look at amazingly earth-spiritual animals like birds and cats as 'philosophers'. They are far deeper than that.
    Oh, that's one of the reasons I like Epicurus. He was one of the first feminist thinkers.

    However, a lot of people get confused about his comments on homosexuality. He expressed concern about how healthy it could be to spend too much time whoring about, whether it's with women or young boys. Well, some people take his comments to mean that he is speaking against homosexuality, and he is not. He just believes that people get to be too sexually focused, and they don't really have a chance to get the benefit of knowing each other as just friends and neighbors. Well, that's one of the reasons I say I'm not governed by Epicurus. I think it's fine for some people to have a more sexually focused life. I just also understand that it's not for everybody.

    But yeah, Aristotle was a misogynist, which is probably one of the reasons that medieval thinkers like Thomas Aquinas liked him. You see, Aristotle was actually revived by Aquinas and his Islamic counterpart, Averroes. Unfortunately, this resulted in them ruining scholasticism by introducing into it an ultra-orthodox mindset in which Aristotle and similar thinkers were raised up on pedestals.

    The problem with treating a thinker like a prophet, though, is that you end up destroying any chance of any future progress in the same area of thought they were considered to be masters at. For example, let's take what happened to British mathematics during and after the rise of Isaac Newton. Sure, he brought a lot of progress to the mathematics in his own right, but he was treated so much like a prophet that nobody else was paid any attention. Any student who contradicted Newton or tried to look at a problem in a different way was shot down. Meanwhile, in Germany, they just took their Leibniz to be one of many brilliant men in their history, and they kept the ball rolling. The British still haven't really caught back up.

    When thinking is self-referential, and becomes identified with itself--as feeling somehow superior-- to the detriment of the whole organism, senses, and its interrelationship with nature in all of its deep mystery, which is objectified as being inferior-- is when it becomes toxic just like mythology can do.
    So you are saying that focusing so much on the inner life as to devalue one's whole self ends up being detrimental.

    Well, that is something that the Epicureans tried to address. Their theory was that a good inner life must be supported by a healthy body and tranquil surroundings. By avoiding stress and seeking out relationships with others that were not potentially ridden with drama, like sexual partnerships, they hoped to support clearer inner thoughts. They hoped that, by making sure that their needs were satisfied, they could better enable themselves to behave virtuously.

    Now, what you seem to object to is the idea that the body is nothing more than a vessel for holding a mind in, right? Treating the body as if it's not really important at all except in how it's important to the mind? If I am interpreting you correctly, I understand that point well.

    There are those spiritualists who say that focusing on the body is somehow shallow. They like to beat the drum that the body is inferior. It is dirty, they say. It is the worldly flesh that keeps us from truly experiencing that which is spiritually sublime, they say. The thing is, I have been there. I have tried the approach of ignoring my worldly needs. I have tried the approach of ignoring my need for human companionship. I have experimented with the idea of taking the inner spiritual existence to the extreme, to the point of degrading the worth of my body. I cultivated that robust and sophisticated inner life, and the things that went on in the world around me seemed so unimportant. They seemed so vain and petty. My body seemed like something that I was loosely tethered to.

    Well, that's kind of why I can react to the spiritualist with a sense of "been there, done that, got the t-shirt, and I think I still use it to dust my furniture." You might as well spend all your days whacked-out on marijuana. It's not that the drug itself is bad. For some people, it's wonderful. It's quite useful. Staying whacked-out on it all day every day, though, is a thing for looooooooooooooooooo serrrrrrrrrrrrrrrzzz. However, I feel about spirituality kind of how you feel about LSD: sure, it's pathetic to think it's the only thing in the world there is to live for, but it's kind of sad if someone goes through life and never gets to experience it. Like I said, it's like never truly seeing art, in a sublime way, or never getting a synaesthesia experience off of music.

    And I'm going to try that LSD stuff one of these days. I just have to get to where I have the time and the opportunity.

    But I have also discovered the earth-spiritual experience you refer to. Rather than putting the focus on the self, you let go of the self. You distribute. You flow out. Your senses grow more acute. You are aware of every particle of dust beneath your fingertips. You are aware of distant sounds. You feel the emotions of those around you, and they are sharply defined rather than muted as they would be with the other. Rather than planning your actions, you let the world around you shape what you do. You react. You express.

    However, one thing that I have learned about gods and lovers is that it's not the quarreling you ought to worry about, at least not as long as you see that peculiar twinkle in their eye. It's when they don't quarrel that something is really fucked-up in the relationship. Besides that, there is no fool like the fool who puts himself in the middle of a lover's quarrel. If you just let them sort out their own shit, they will be fucking each other before the day is out.

    In any event, I regard Epicureanism to be the delightful nerd of philosophical persuasions. He is hung like a fucking mutant hyperphallic horse, and he is a demented maniac in bed. Practically every decent, worthwhile thing that has happened lately, in history, has been a product of Epicurean-style approaches to the world. That includes American democracy and our realization that the Earth revolves around the Sun rather than vice versa. He's not like those other guys, who used to treat you like shit and always fell asleep the instant they had gotten their jolly. He can actually give. Unlike those men who have superficial charm yet have little to show for it, he actually lives up to their romantic chatter without bothering your ears with it. He is also quite the sugar daddy.

    On the other hand, as long as you are still feuding and fuming over your old lover, my dear, you have not truly put him in your past, where ill-fated romances belong. If you want to put him behind you, you ought to learn to understand him in a legitimately sympathetic light. Try to understand what happened to him. In your mind, make peace with him. Realize, deep down, that he cannot control you anymore. Until you have made your peace, deep down, he is not really behind you, and you can't move on.

  34. #134

    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Re: why has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people? The implication is more than others , which is unclear . There is a predominant world culture , basically US , which is English-speaking Protestant and roughly democratic . Protestant not Catholic . One might ask why English is everwhere , a fairly obscure German dialect , jeans in Mongolia ?

  35. #135

    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    well then your answer is because it is so traditionally entrenched that people cannot seem to talk about mythology or spirituality without talking about the typical Christian iconography

  36. #136
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    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Smith View Post
    Christianity is actually pretty diverse, but most Americans nowadays are more Platonist than Christian. To assume that "Platonism" is a secular doctrine would be a failure in the proper understanding of Platonism. A true Platonist, who followed the teachings of the Platonist and Neoplatonist philosophers to the letter, would barely be distinguishable from a modern Christian.

    There are also, of course, those who live more according to the Stoic tradition. The belief held by the Stoics was that virtuous behavior brought about spiritual happiness. They believed that the universe was made of a reasoning substance. They did not think of it so much as "God" but more the way we talk about "nature" as if it were a thinking substance somehow.

    However, there are surviving relics of Olympianism in our culture. For example, there are still people who think of death in terms of Thanatos, and Thanatos appears very often in our art. Furthermore, Catholic demonology is littered with numerous old pagan gods, including many from The Levant. We don't admit to it and deride it as "mythology," but we still believe in and fear the old gods.

    We still observe the idea of wishing wells or fountains. This is actually of Celtic origin, but the idea was also popular in Norse culture. Odin supposedly sacrificed his right eye for wisdom by casting it into a well. Today we routinely throw pennies into fountains, hoping that the small sacrifice will result in some degree of good fortune. When you do things like this, try to understand that you are continuing an ancient tradition of ritual sacrifice that has been around since before human memory.

    It's derided as "superstition" and treated as backward and foolish, but that's because the Christians simply couldn't get rid of it. Oh, they tried to stamp it out. They tried to get people to realize that these pagan superstitions were backward and silly nonsense. A lot of people don't realize it today, but medieval Christians really thought of themselves as very enlightened and modern, and they made it their mission in life to educate all of our poor, backward pagan ancestors. People still do these things, though. They believe in these things. It surpasses their belief in God in how much it affects their behavior. This is the true religion of the common people.

    It's not that Christianity has changed so much. It is more that we haven't changed as much as we fancy. Our culture survives, and what a tragedy it would have been to let it die.
    I would say that in alot of ways Platonism is seperate from Christianity. For one the theory of forms asserts that there are certain abstract ideas that exist independant of and that give form to all things even the Gods. However Christianity think that before Yahweh there was nothing and that he created the atemporal forms when in reality these forms are uncreated and give form to all things.

  37. #137

    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Feminism and the mastery of nature “But for most of the history of Christianity the tendency to view the material world as alienated, as evil, or as having at best meaning and significance as an instrument to a separate higher spiritual realm, has triumphed. These views of nature are the precursor to later mechanistic ones, in which the redemption of nature is attained through science, while emphasis on the domination of nature without replaces or supplements Christian and Platonic emphasis on the domination of nature within.” Page 106
    What Valerie Plumwood is saying is that although Plato talked about an 'anima mundi' meaning 'world soul', he yet had the image of a masculine logos in control from within over 'matter'--the feminine, nature. This is why he created a dualism between nature which he considered changeable and thus inferior to the 'non-changing' nature of the astral spiritual realms which he thought superior.

  38. #138
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    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mariatenebre View Post
    I would say that in alot of ways Platonism is seperate from Christianity. For one the theory of forms asserts that there are certain abstract ideas that exist independant of and that give form to all things even the Gods. However Christianity think that before Yahweh there was nothing and that he created the atemporal forms when in reality these forms are uncreated and give form to all things.
    But most professed Christians today are more Platonist than Christian. Really, this has been the case for a long while.

  39. #139

    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Quote Originally Posted by ludolfo View Post
    I am quite intrigued how come the gay online community forum here to do with religion and spirituality seems to be mainly obsessed with the Christian myth, as if to suggest that Christianity invented religion and spirituality.

    I would just like to explore why. Of course we in the western world are permeated with this myth since being little, and we ALL have 'Christian' names, so even though generally there is an acceptance we have moved on away from this age of religion and now exist in the 'real' world of scientific materialism that willy-nilly all the Christian principles and values remain, some unconsciously.

    It's quite strange how the book the Bible can have had so much influence over so many over the generations isn't it. EVEN though for many gay people we have had to suffer great abuse from believers in this book for a long long time YET the threads in this section seem devoted to this religion as though it has a patent on religion, spirituality, and philosophy.

    What are gay people here feeling about this is my question?

    What I feel about this is I am glad I live in a country founded on Christian principles even though I may take exception to them. I'd rather live here than in a Muslim country. I'd probably already be dead if I lived in, let's say, Sudan.
    Last edited by Durango95; March 17th, 2013 at 04:38 PM.
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  40. #140
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    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Quote Originally Posted by Durango95 View Post
    What I feel about this is I am glad I live in a country founded on Christian principles even though I may take exception to them. I'd rather live here than in a Muslim country. I'd probably already be dead if I lived in, let's say, Sudan.
    "the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion"

    --George Washington and John Adams via the Treaty of Tripoli

  41. #141

    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Quote Originally Posted by Durango95 View Post
    What I feel about this is I am glad I live in a country founded on Christian principles even though I may take exception to them. I'd rather live here than in a Muslim country. I'd probably already be dead if I lived in, let's say, Sudan.
    When I question Christianity, I am really questioning all patriarchal myths because they all come from the same source---one that fear, hates, persecutes, and attacks women, animals (and all other species). nature. gays, people of colour. I can see this clearly.LOOK at who the victims of this world are, and it is obvious.

  42. #142

    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Quote Originally Posted by FirmaFan View Post
    "the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion"

    --George Washington and John Adams via the Treaty of Tripoli
    There is a difference in principles and religion.
    Only government can take perfectly good paper, cover it with perfectly good ink and make the combination worthless.

  43. #143

    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Quote Originally Posted by ludolfo View Post
    When I question Christianity, I am really questioning all patriarchal myths because they all come from the same source---one that fear, hates, persecutes, and attacks women, animals (and all other species). nature. gays, people of colour. I can see this clearly.LOOK at who the victims of this world are, and it is obvious.
    Then why did you not say all patriarchal religions and not just Christianity. I haven't seen anyone being killed in the past few months in a Christian country for being gay or committing adultery.
    Only government can take perfectly good paper, cover it with perfectly good ink and make the combination worthless.

  44. #144

    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Quote Originally Posted by Durango95 View Post
    Then why did you not say all patriarchal religions and not just Christianity. I haven't seen anyone being killed in the past few months in a Christian country for being gay or committing adultery.
    Of course! In Uganda the most prominent gay activist David Kato was murdered. Uganda is Christian and is rabidly homophobic. They revently tried to pass a law to hang gay people, di you sign the petition against it? Jamaica is also extremely homophobic--checkout 'Two more gay men killed in Jamaica

    In 2011, 30 fatally violent hate crimes were committed against lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender victims, 3 more than the previous year's total.

    And then we have the children bullied to death for being gay, or being seen to be gay, in schools in the Christian west. This is just one very sad example BULLIED TO DEATH: Seth Walsh, 13, Dies After 10 Days On Life Support After Suicide Attempt

    And as well as this is the violence and threat of violence for children, and adults, fearing what can happen if they are gay or targeted for being seen to be gay by bigoted people.

    Listen to Christians even generally when the subject of gays is brought up, you will usually hear cherry picking from their fave book about 'it is abomination for man to lie with man', 'Sodom and Gomorrah' and that fuked up homophobic saying 'God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve' They like to think they have an all-good perfect male god in the sky backing them up, and paving their way to heaven for hatin on gay people---etc! So you speak out and question their myth and whatever fuels their fear and violence and ignorance which is what I have done and will continue doing.

    Last edited by ludolfo; March 18th, 2013 at 05:21 PM.

  45. #145

    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Quote Originally Posted by ludolfo View Post
    Of course! In Uganda the most prominent gay activist David Kato was murdered. Uganda is Christian and is rabidly homophobic. They revently tried to pass a law to hang gay people, di you sign the petition against it? Jamaica is also extremely homophobic--checkout 'Two more gay men killed in Jamaica

    In 2011, 30 fatally violent hate crimes were committed against lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender victims, 3 more than the previous year's total.

    And then we have the children bullied to death for being gay, or being seen to be gay, in schools in the Christian west. This is just one very sad example BULLIED TO DEATH: Seth Walsh, 13, Dies After 10 Days On Life Support After Suicide Attempt

    And as well as this is the violence and threat of violence for children, and adults, fearing what can happen if they are gay or targeted for being seen to be gay by bigoted people.

    Listen to Christians even generally when the subject of gays is brought up, you will usually hear cherry picking from their fave book about 'it is abomination for man to lie with man', 'Sodom and Gomorrah' and that fuked up homophobic saying 'God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve' They like to think they have an all-good perfect male god in the sky backing them up, and paving their way to heaven for hatin on gay people---etc! So you speak out and question their myth and whatever fuels their fear and violence and ignorance which is what I have done and will continue doing.

    Ok so these few in contrast to the thousands in Muslim countries. I just seems that you have more of a problem with Christianity specifically. I also seems like you don't have so much of a problem with how gays are treated by any other religious systems, namely Islam.

    I suppose it stands to reason. You didn't reference it specifically, but I assume you were born here. Chances are you were reared in a home with some sort of Christian background. Even if you were reared in an atheist home, 99.9% of atheists come from Christian backgrounds as well. I did the atheist thing for a while. It just didn't do it for me. Funny thing is, in all those years, I never ever met an atheist that was once Buddhist or Muslim....weird, huh.
    Only government can take perfectly good paper, cover it with perfectly good ink and make the combination worthless.

  46. #146
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    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    I was surprised to learn that Jimmy Bakker is back in the christian televangelism business. Can't see myself donating any sum of money his way. By the way, while on the subject of televangelism, what's up with Houston Texas christian televangelist Joel Osteen's eyes? Kinda' creepy if you ask me. Wouldn't give a nickle to Joel either.

  47. #147
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    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Quote Originally Posted by Durango95 View Post
    Then why did you not say all patriarchal religions and not just Christianity. I haven't seen anyone being killed in the past few months in a Christian country for being gay or committing adultery.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History..._United_States
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  48. #148

    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Of course I am against Islamic fear and violence which includes abuse of woman, children and gay peoples! I instigated a 50 page discussion titled 'Danger of Islam' at another forum--longest thread there--- because I was so concerned about it, and I received a lot of abuse for doing so from a few who thought I was being racist. I am against ANY myth which I consider toxic and creating fear and promoting violence, and will speak out against it. I do same with Eastern traditions, and secular myths like scientific materialism. I see all of these myths stemming from patriarchal mythology. The reason I focused on the christian myth here is because nearly most of the threads were to do with Christianity?

  49. #149
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    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mariatenebre View Post
    MikeyLove has said that homosexulity is "objectively disordered" and caused by original sin aka inherited guilt when science shows it is caused by nature. He has also said that gays should be celibate and in order to be good Catholics must hate their sexuality and fight against it.
    Those two are not mutually exclusive.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  50. #150
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    Re: whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?

    Quote Originally Posted by ludolfo View Post
    Well errrm the Christian conquests of the 'New World' for example? And before that was the massive suppression of the Old European Goddess religion by the same kind of oppression fostered by Judeo-Christianity.
    By the time Christianity came around there wasn't much goddess religion left -- it was mostly what I call "soap opera religion", with a wide selection of characters and a free choice of which to be fans of.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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