I just don't understand why someone would actively be part of a religion that so stigmatizes their feelings towards men. Why pray to a deity who says that homosexuality is an abomination that has no place in the world to the point of being a death sentence?
The evil of this belief exists for real. I saw a documentary that was very eye-opening and horrific to see for any gay person. A gay UK radio show host went undercover to Africa, Uganda, and pretending to be straight went around interviewing people from all sections of the community whether or not gay people should be punished. EVERYone he asked was behind this evil, even the youth who you would have thought would not be so conforming, and they mostly quoted the Bible in support of their homophobia. One African girl on a radio show about the subject he'd arranged even said that dreaded cliched crap "God didn't make Adam and Steve [pause] He made Adam and Eve". T%he climax was him arranging an interview with one of the country's top politicians who wanted to introduce the death penalty for gays who had been caught having sex. You should have seen the expression on his face when at the end of the interview the interviewer confessed he was gay lol. Soon after we here he had to quickly leave the country for fear for his life!
Gay youths in America etc etc have killed themselves because of bullycide--persecuted because they are gay or suspected of being gay. They are the tip of the iceberg with many kids lives made misery. So what I am saying is this is very serious, and is supported by Bible believers. It is not enough to pretend to be tolerant but then insist gay people cannot have sex with others, or before marriage as it is sinful. It is this belief in a 'pure God' that is the problem, because then others are considered of a sinful nature and hence 'impure'.
Last edited by ludolfo; January 29th, 2013 at 02:54 PM.
Do you think there wouldn't be homophobic people if, say, religion would be eradicated? I think the situation would remain the same, because now people use religion as an excuse, and justification for their hatred towards gays, but if there were no religion, than their hate would remain.
Humans naturally distance themselves from the unknown. I do not know why, but most humans always see difference as an opposition.
Why is that? Why does human nature constantly seek an opposition, a group he can blame everything on? In every group there is someone who becames the omega-male. In every society there is group that is hated. In every country, there a regions that are hated by most others.
I think this is a psychological phenomena. People want an enemy to hate, and blame everything on so they don't have to face their own failings.
The Christian myth believes in a 'God' who is 'pure', and that nature by itself is 'impure', and thus we need to surrender to this 'God' so as to 'redeem' ourselves.But you seem to want to deny the pernicious assumptions of this myth and now diffuse the looking into it by claiming 'ohhh, its been human nature all along to hate gays, and blacks, and women, and nature, and sex, and 'the unknown''). This is your myth, and it stops you looking and questioning the Christian myth which blames human nature for being sinful and sexual love, especially being between those of the same sex, as being sinful.King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
Look, it really doesn't matter that there may have been other mythologies which have been violent. One could see the ancient Aztec mythology as being very bloody and cruel. The thing is we have to NOW to look and question. Realy mythology is not then but a living dynamic now. We are living now, and these problems--such as young people being bullied to death for being gay-- are with us now yet you defend an old story set down many centuries ago in a totally different culture and time and imagine it could apply to now when all it does is cause much of the fear and paranoia about sexuality etc.
That reply of mine sounds muddled, and not clear so I am gonna try to be clearer. OK, The Christian belief is that nature is already sinful. You then say that even despite Chrstian belief people will always be afraid of the unknown and attack what it doesn't understand. How do you know this?
native American culture pre-the European conquests accepted gay people, and they were known as 'two spirits' and considered sacred. So aty least there was a respect for males who desired other males. (sorry I do not know about lesbians)
But JUST because you may point out cultures from the past who not being Christian may have feared an unknown does not mean that the Christian belief system doesn't encourage such fear of the unknown.It starts of from its very beginning creating paranoia amongst its believers by claiming they are sinful, and the 'flesh' is to be feared and not trusted, and nature is fallen and ruled over by the devil who desires their souls to go to hell for everlasting pain. I mean sheeeeit you cant get more paranoid than that...can ya? LOL
How does this myth translate into secular culture, for after all most 'educated' people will calim that all of this is superstition, and now we live in an Age of Science. Well, we still have homophobia, so is this as you claim because this fear of the 'unknown' is inherent in human nature or is it that Christian values still permeate the culture albeit mainly unconsciously.
I wonder who are the groups that will not allow teaching children about homosexuality in their enforced schooling system? Would you say they are Conservative Christians or Conservative atheists? I am seriously asking you to tell me what you think?
There is also the question of what does gay even mean? Is it black and white with gays on one side and heteros on the other or is it far more complex than that? What do you think?
Last edited by ludolfo; January 30th, 2013 at 12:04 PM.
Perhaps not referring to it as "the Christian myth" would allow people to take you more seriously. Hard to get into a discussion with someone who is biased to the point of rolling your eyes.
Persecution for any reason has happened throughout history, even where religion was not involved. Why is that in many African countries, there is racism towards those who are darker than others? Hell, slavery was largely institutionalized with nary any mention of it being God's will (except from the fringe which both sides distanced themselves from).
By and large, the theme has always been that someone or some group wants to be the dominant force. Look towards animals who don't have the capacity for ego, exploitation, etc. Religion just adds an easy layer of explanation. You can easily dismiss the conversation so as to respect someone's beliefs or it can be used to incite those who believe it is their duty in life. It's much more socially acceptable to say "It's against my religion" than to say "I simply don't like you because of who you are." It's also much easier to get someone to join you when they think they're working for something bigger than themselves.
The earth's magnetic poles have not shifted for a couple thousand years. Let's see if christianity survives the next polar shift. And that is the depth of your argument.
If an individual can symphatize with an organization, he will be likely to support it.
The nature of the threat that the Catholic Church poses against gay people is more subtle. It tries to make everyone believe that gays are sinners, but it is not a completely effective strategy. Of course, I am aware that many fall for this, and become anti-gay because of the religious influence of the church (This has happened to my mom. Now we are making circles around each other, waiting for one of us to turn his/her back so we can perform a backstab)
Yet it is much more easier to strengthen the hatred that is already there. And this is the real danger. The Catholic Church hands justification for their hatred: "they are sinners", "God hates sin".
Saying that the Catholic Church is responsible for the existence of gay-hate is blindness. We don't need the Catholic Church to be self-righteous, selfish, hateful bastards. It is human nature to distance yourself from the unknown. And I think we all know what it is like to fight your own nature. It is something we do everyday. Knowledge is the only thing that can make us more understanding.
And this is where the Catholic Church is extreemely dangerous: They claim to have knowledge about gays and homosexuality. They give you a few fairy tales and scientific-sounding documents, wrapped in fancy words, and a lot of people fall for it. Becuase the "information" they give gives positive feedback about the wrongness of being gay. Of course theese documents are created by them, so go figure.
I do not relieve the Catholic Church from it's crimes, but please do not think that all the rest of the world is clean and morally unquestionable. There is wrong and there is evil outside of the catholic church.
If you want to go into the origins of racism and fear of dark skin it is true that this occurs long before the Christian Church comes to be established, but the Church is of course influenced by this fear of darkness and the unknown. It grows out of this presumption of reality. So what are its beginnings?
The patriarchy, and its psychological division between light and darkness where the former, light, is conceptualized to be superior, and the latter inferior, and from there they impose this prejudice even onto dark skin tone, and anything or body seen as inferior including of course women, and nature, and human natures. And we can very much see this prejudice in Christian scripture and writings. So we agree on this?
But this does not mean you ignore the Church's carrying on of this ignorance and violence, and presume it is 'human nature'. It is not human nature but a series of mythologies which influence each other and need exposing for what they do to the believers in them.
Are you suggesting that human nature is like this and so creates these myths?
In one sense it is in that the people who create these myths have human nature and choose to do so, but it is a misguided nature. A nature cut off from itself so to speak.
It is more like an elitist predatory section of the community will create these stories to have power over others. That is not ALL human nature is it? It's more certain groups of individuals who are control freaks, and they create stories which make it easier for them to keep control, because IF we believe we are sinful, etc etc, then we are divided against ourselves aren't we? We become our own control freak. See how it works?
You haven't answered me yet.
So if God truly approves of hatred, then either hatred is not evil, but if it is indeed evil and God approves of it, he would commit a sin, and that is impossible, according to Dogmatics.
If homosexuality in itself is evil/wrong/unnatural, than why does it exist in a world that was created by a being of love and goodness?
If homosexuality is a sin, than love between two men is also sin. And if love is a sin, than God is sin(ner).
Which is again, a paradox. And if Love is not God, and God is not Love, than the most powerful force in the universe is not God, which means that if I were to worship anything it wouldn't be him.
And make no mistake Mikey. There is nothing Greater than love. Love can be crushed, it can be broken, it can die, and it can be defeated, but it never fails. If love is at work, everything is secondary in its presence. Every other feeling is an aspect of love, and every act carries a spark of love inside it.
It is the nature of all things to find the easiest way to reach a destination. The water flows where it finds way to flow.
If there is no explanation to a phenomena, we are creating a simple and easily understandable explanation, which is comfortable to our minds, and later, over decades and centuries, we keep modifying it to serve our needs properly.
... or the Hindus ... or the Buddhists ... or the Pagans ... or the Taoists ... or the Seikhs ... or the Jews ... or the Rastafarians ... or the Gnostics ... or the Parsis ... or whatever?
How will you deal with it?
IF it is human nature to hate and 'fear the other', how come I am against that as some others are in this thread and in the world. OR are you claiming I am of the same ilk? Don't worry about offending me by being honest. I am just trying to dig where your coming from with this conversation.
Can you not see that it is the stories you tell yourself about reality which influence you?
why do some kids grow up racists and others don't? You will see infants playing together, all colours of skin, yet when they get to a certain age some will find a group and then call other individuals and groups bad names and even attack them. Why?
Could it be that they hear things their parents say, that the TV says, both overtly and covertly, and what the school says, and supposed history and religion says and then is influenced by this do you think?
Why? because that's what they see from their parents, that's why. This is what they see in TV, and some of them DECIDES to be racist. Why? Because it is much more simple to hate, than to understand. Children are cruel.
Religion says nothing about black people. It would be foolish to say that racism is a result of catholicism.
However I could imagine some extreemely devoted people to justify their hatred towards a race by religion, but it must be very twisted.
History may cause some people to become racist I think. History teaches us to hate each other for things we didn't commit. It teaches us to hold grudges against people we don't know.
My brother thinks black people are an inferior race, because over 4000 years they have achieved nothing, while whites explored the world and made plenty of technical/scientific/cultural advances. Many people think that way.
But than again, if my brother would befriend a black guy he would see that he is plain wrong.But this is Hungary, and there are very few black people here, and they are also very closed. They hang out with each other, rarely ever interacting with us.
an there are also the intincts. People tend choose the familiar over the unknown. If you have never seen a black guy, never even heard of them and one day you see one you will be possibly scared and you won't know what to do, how to react.
Personally, I do not think that God is approving those who are in Violation of what is written in the middle of paragraph #2358 in the Catechism of the Catholic Church: They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided.
Secondly, I do not pick and choose what to believe, I just struggle with issues and Pray for God's Guidance. I cannot separate my Spirituality from Catholicism, and I will not even attempt to separate it, because it is the Glue that holds all things together....just my opinion. Besides, God's will is 1000 times more important than my own feeble will, and NO, I am not self Hating as many of you like to call it.
Does those answer the third one you mentioned?
I am really happy that on a forum site that hugely promotes sexual gratification, we have threads about religious,myths, and spiritus. It makes me wonder if sexual nature and love are so far from spiritual/quantum entanglements as some purist claim.
I will contest the OP and some of the comments first by stating my background because or makeup tends to influence our beliefs. nature. I am american, black, christian raised and gay/bi and consider myself educated and gnostic, occultist*occult as unseen knowledge * I believe science cannot explain our lives fully. But I do also believe christian doctrine, catholic or protestant is a creation myth, as many religions are. I don't think it is a simple story to explain the unknown as many here claim. These faiths, may attempt to explain nature but the adherents mostly find it away to explain their lives.
This christian myth has power because of its emotional influence over people, the history of people crusading and it being one of the first stories to go into written form. Thus for many years, those who considered themselves educated explored Christ,read and spread Christ.
I disagree that humans are hate the unknown and are natural phobic. There are obviously some be these tend a lot more cultural tradition and learning, humans tend to be pretty curious, sexually, intellectually and reach out. You have to tell children not to go running around, not to fiddle with everything, an not to speak to strangers, who to dislike as groups..obviously we have personal attractions but to say we are stick with our own traditional animal, no I think not. That is another reason I see religion and christianity having power it sets modes of behavior and limitations and impossible stakes. your soul, is a risk if you step out of line..thats pretty strong motivator.
My question/problems with it stem from the paradox of supreme being creating imperfect beings and requesting/asking them to be godlike. Why would a god request this seems kindof cruel. Either you create a universe and its so awesome humans look at it and say woah this is wonderful ..something grand must created it,and me...but im so horrible and must be imperfect..let me go against my god given drives...and act inhumane or the creator might be a little flawed. I tend to thank the latter and am always reminded of a art-history professor who told me of one artist "he thought the best reprensentation of the human spirit, was the human body, so perfectly imperfect, so varied so vulgar, and yet man to women, coal to ivory..we find ourselves in each other." There is something so familiar. My belief is christianity is western *myth of great magnetism because of the money,wars,and grand stakes it has evoked,heaven,hell, souls, and a promise of forgiveness if you happen to murder,steal, cheat or swindle..you can still be forgiven that type of hope galvanizes people.
Unfortunately all to often, people do cherry pick their beliefs, proclaim themselves, their families and people who they like and agree with 'saved', 'enlightenment', entitled' and damn everyone else savages, pagans, sinners etc.thus expendable.
*myths, this word is literary, referring to stories. Please people of faith don't get buthurt when someone refers to your book,with its dramas as such. Your own history may one day become a myth is your actions are so awesome or fearsome that others choose to tell it. You will have little control over embellishments,contradictions an complete miscarriages of your name..as it is with Christ and Buddhas of the world. As above and so bellow , as with me and you.
Last edited by opinterph; February 10th, 2013 at 12:39 AM. Reason: no flame zone
As an atheist, I believe science has not explained our lives fully. Whether it can has yet to be claimed, never mind proven.
It is also apparent that religions have pretended to explain our lives fully, attributing, according to their imagination, purpose, origins, obligations, and any manner of other qualities which should properly be called "guesses" instead of "revelations" or "commandments" or "divine laws."
Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.
Hmmm I am curious. How come the thread I started questioning the over-bearance of Christianity-ism on these boards and the myth in general is 'closed for review' and yet none of the other threads about Christianity are? And where Mikey Love--who has quite a dominant presence here-- will suggest that gay people should not have sex, that seems alright and accepted in a gay community (but don't get me wrong. I would never ever secretly contact JUB to have YOUR threads closed I assure you. I have always supported freedom of speech and questioning). Can someone explain?
Is it because Christian JUB supporters have been complaining to the mods here about the conversation of the subject I initiated and they have successfully closed the thread and censored any challenges to their beliefs by others who don't share them?
I am having to speculate because other members participating in the thread were not considered before the thread was closed. There was no announcement by the moderator for their reasons for it to be closed 'for review' or anything, and so we have just been silenced and that seems to be that!
This reminds me of how these belief systems operate. IF they don't have the power to burn you at the stake for contradicting their cherished beliefs, or house arrest you, they will find other means to shut you up.
Last edited by ludolfo; February 2nd, 2013 at 02:16 AM.
Plus if you think religion sucks I am okay with it. I just want you to see that even without religion things still wouldn't be perfect, and christianity is not the all-powerful demon you believe it is.
I would have also liked to continue our debate, because I find it quite interesting.
Last edited by Coward92; February 2nd, 2013 at 03:01 AM.
so what was the reason for the thread beingthen in your opinion? We don't know because we weren't even told this was going to happen, or informed why it has happened, so do you know something we don't?closed for preview
I seriously doubt that...Is it because Christian JUB supporters have been complaining to the mods here about the conversation of the subject I initiated and they have successfully closed the thread and censored any challenges to their beliefs by others who don't share them?
we have a forum here where you can start a thread where you can talk to the Mods privately...only you and the Mods can see the thread you start
this might be the best place for you to ask your question
They only ever seem to close a thread when it starts to get interesting. This tends to be when the critics of Christianity outweigh the supporters and/or the Christian posters are clearly failing in their arguments.
I don’t recall anyone reporting the thread, “whay has the Christian myth got such a magnetic pull on some people?,” though perhaps it was reported somewhere along the way. I read every post in this sub-forum and observe each thread as the discussion develops. I generally try to be lenient and avoid excessive intrusion.
Why was the two threads merged, they were started by two different Guys?
To answer your question, it comes down to three things: location, location and location.
Many skeptics fail to understand how ancient the roots of Christianity are, and they don't fully appreciate how centrally and crucially located The Levant was in the ancient world. Geographically, The Levant was at a cultural cross-roads. Ugarit in particular was an important ancient Phoenician port. More important, though, was how Levantine culture contributed to the development of the modern written word known to the West.
Ancient Phoenician script was a crucial development in modern phonetic alphabets. Although it still contained hieroglyphic elements, as you would discover remain in Hebrew and other daughter scripts, it had the important quality of being capable of transcribing sounds. Please, try to appreciate the enormity of this. This was huge. The Greek alphabet, which is based on the Phoenician alphabet, has been used to write some of the most influential works in Western history.
Now, I have a theory that at least some of the works of the Old Testament might have originally been written in ancient Phoenician, though some of the writings, such as Proverbs, might actually go back to ancient Sumer. The Book of Proverbs does resemble ancient Sumerian wisdom literature, and it reads somewhat similarly to the Instructions of Shuruppak. In any case, it would not be far-fetched due to the references in the Book of Job and others to some ancient Ugaritic figures (Ugarit was an ancient Phoenician port in The Levant).
Equally important, though, is the heritage of the Book of Genesis, also known as the Bereshit. The Bereshit has figures and events in it that correspond with actual events in ancient times. For example, the flood story seems to correspond with the eruption at Thera in about the 1500's BCE. You must understand how much of a scar this eruption left on the ancient Levant. The flood would have been immense, and it would have wiped out entire civilizations. It took centuries for even the ancient Egyptians to recover from it, and their antediluvian zoomorphic gods were almost lost to our culture, which would have been a tragedy.
In any case, there might have been religions more ancient than those of the ancient Hebrews, but they were probably one of the earliest cultures to actually transcribe their records into this new form of writing. Therefore, they ended up being disproportionately influential in the ancient world and beyond due to the advantage that this gave them.
As for Christianity in particular, the Gospels actually have a particularly attractive message. If you have not read them, then I suggest that you do. Their contents are actually genuinely heartwarming.
On the other hand, I honestly don't know how the Pauline Epistles even survived. Paul was a total dick by all accounts. He was a priggish, sanctimonious ass. He was a horrible misogynist, particularly if First Timothy is anything to go by. The only significance that he really has is that he was an important leader in the early Church, and he probably helped organize the Christians into a unified political force. Without him, the Christians might never have gained very much political power. They would have most likely fractured more than they eventually did anyway. He was still a complete boner, though. If I could go back in time to give that guy a swift kick in the nuts, I would.
Anyway, the book that is apparently the strangest is Revelation, and the question that many have asked throughout history is just how in the hell the damn thing got there. Well, it was originally written in Greek pidgin, and it was probably extremely popular among early Greek evangelists trying to appeal to ignorant working-class youth and twenty-somethings. It has a perverse sex appeal, and it was probably the Twilight of its time. Although it is essentially stroke material, it is actually fairly good stroke material when you get right down to it.
In any case, Westerners are really a lot more Pagan than they are Christian, even today. They may go to Church on Sundays, but they spend the rest of the week reading Lord of the Rings, which Tolkein based on the Poetic Eddas, and Twilight, which is descended from a literary tradition that has roots in ancient Frankish culture. The Iliad and the Odyssey are required reading, not the Bible. By comparison, the influence of Christianity has been pretty weak, and even Christianity itself has, in practice, been infested with Pagan rituals. There is nothing about Yule in the Bible, after all. Our Pagan traditions have a much stronger influence on how we think of the world and ourselves. Therefore, to say that Christianity is disproportionately influential would actually be false.
Nevertheless, Christianity has incredibly ancient roots, and it warrants our respect.
Why, because you argue it has ancient roots? Why should we respect it if it promotes homophobia? I choose that specifically because most of us at these forums are gay, and various diverse forms of what that may mean.
You seem to be well read about your favorite religion--though I don't necessarily agree with all you say--so does this mean you are a practicing Christian? And/or do you have gay friends who are Christians?
As for the homophobia in Christianity, it is all Paul's fault. He was a misogynistic son of a bitch. If I could go back in time, I swear I would go back and kick that jerk in the nuts so hard....grrrrr. He was not even painted in an attractive light in the Bible. In every aspect of his character, he was an obscene prig and a jerk. If I could kick that guy's butt, I would pay money.
Anyway, Christianity did not create modern homophobia. People did. One of the earliest individuals to truly persecute gay people, in Christian Europe, was Theodosius I. That was the least of his crimes, but it did set a precedent that we are still untangling the consequences of today. Theodosius was not a nice man. St. Ambrose was generally appalled by him. However, Theodosius I ordered gay men to be sentenced to death by burning.
Earlier tyrants of Rome persecuted gay people, but some of those were not even clearly Christian. For example, Philip the Arab is considered by some thinkers to have been Christian, but this is really very dubious. One of his atrocities was the so-called "Secular Games," in which more than a thousand gladiators died as well as many ill-fated animals. One thing he tried to outlaw was male prostitution. He was not much of a Christian, though, even though Christianity was a very popular religion at the time.
No, I do not blame Christianity, per se, for homophobia. I blame evil men.
As for why I have respect for Christianity, I actually appreciate the fact that the Christians helped domesticate my Pagan ancestors. Although I am very proud of the traditions of my Pagan ancestors, their rituals involving human sacrifice had to go. Furthermore, Anglo-Saxon culture had annoying macho-ethics in which homosexuality was not unto itself an object of persecution, but the "receptive" partners were kicked around pretty badly and treated like dogs. As someone who is always the "receptive" partner in sex, I have a serious problem with that.
I find some present-day Christian sects to be utterly repulsive. That is different from my feelings about Christianity overall. Christianity is as divided about gay rights as society at large. And remember, because atheists are very much a minority, the majority of those who support gay rights are Christians, whether you like it or not.
But I am an atheist, just to be clear.
Last edited by Brian Smith; February 10th, 2013 at 11:57 AM.
I agree with Brian Smith here because he is basically intelligent enough to realize that Christianty didn't create all the evil in the world.
Demonizing a subject is foolish. Take a look at both sides of the coin instead.
Take a look at Matthew 19, where Jesus speaks of Eunuchs in a positive light. In the culture your Jesus lived in, any man who was not potent with women was considered to be a eunuch, and this included many gay men. In fact, there were probably gay men among his followers. Furthermore, "sodomites" have, for most of history, been people who were rude and inhospitable to strangers. Your Jesus was not a homophobe by any stretch of the imagination.
And Paul the Apostle was a jerk. Seriously, I challenge you to sit down and read everything that man wrote. He was obviously tortured over whether or not he was genuine, and he was obviously a more-or-less well-meaning prig who was trying to do something decent. He was an imperfect man. If he could be summoned to our time, he would probably acknowledge that. He was literally the kind of person that you long to kick sand in his face, alright? This is not to say he did not do noble things in his lifetime.
Now, if you really read the Old Testament, you will eventually realize that many of the books in it, including the parts known in some traditions as the Pentateuch, are not entirely composed of wonderful ideas. For example, there is a place in Deuteronomy that suggests condemning people who were bastard children or descended from someone who was a bastard child, condemning a person for the sins not only of his parents but of his ancestors going back 10 generations. I will leave it to you to find where this is. If you have literacy in the Bible, it is plain that certain parts of it are ancient records that, although they were not laws uttered by a divine spirit, are a cultural treasure.
And that perspective is what distinguishes a secular humanist from someone who is merely an atheist.
Last edited by Brian Smith; February 10th, 2013 at 12:37 PM.
If you would consider the proceedings of the Nuremberg Trials a "cultural treasure" then we agree on the vocabulary. The texts of christendom really do document the most terrible and gruesome conduct done in the name of the faith, and even unflinchingly give it a divine blush, attributing much of the cruelty to the actual hand of god.
In the sense that it records an ever-receding depravity of the human condition, it is a precious resource. But I might say I'm wary of it rather than respectful of it; the latter word is too likely to be taken as an indicator of esteem or as an endorsement.
Last edited by bankside; February 10th, 2013 at 12:59 PM.
Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.
Now, as to whether I would have people live their entire lives in accordance with the writings of the Pentateuch, let me give you this gem right here:
When I say that it is a cultural treasure, I do not mean that we ought to follow it as our law. I mean simply that it is a cultural treasure. There are pieces of history in it that can give us incredibly valuable insights as to who we are. My respect for this book is immense.From Numbers 5...
11 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
12 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man's wife go aside, and commit a trespass against him,
13 And a man lie with her carnally, and it be hid from the eyes of her husband, and be kept close, and she be defiled, and there be no witness against her, neither she be taken with the manner;
14 And the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be defiled: or if the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be not defiled:
15 Then shall the man bring his wife unto the priest, and he shall bring her offering for her, the tenth part of an ephah of barley meal; he shall pour no oil upon it, nor put frankincense thereon; for it is an offering of jealousy, an offering of memorial, bringing iniquity to remembrance.
16 And the priest shall bring her near, and set her before the Lord:
17 And the priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel; and of the dust that is in the floor of the tabernacle the priest shall take, and put it into the water:
18 And the priest shall set the woman before the Lord, and uncover the woman's head, and put the offering of memorial in her hands, which is the jealousy offering: and the priest shall have in his hand the bitter water that causeth the curse:
19 And the priest shall charge her by an oath, and say unto the woman, If no man have lain with thee, and if thou hast not gone aside to uncleanness with another instead of thy husband, be thou free from this bitter water that causeth the curse:
20 But if thou hast gone aside to another instead of thy husband, and if thou be defiled, and some man have lain with thee beside thine husband:
21 Then the priest shall charge the woman with an oath of cursing, and the priest shall say unto the woman, The Lord make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the Lord doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell;
22 And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall say, Amen, amen.
23 And the priest shall write these curses in a book, and he shall blot them out with the bitter water:
24 And he shall cause the woman to drink the bitter water that causeth the curse: and the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter.
25 Then the priest shall take the jealousy offering out of the woman's hand, and shall wave the offering before the Lord, and offer it upon the altar:
26 And the priest shall take an handful of the offering, even the memorial thereof, and burn it upon the altar, and afterward shall cause the woman to drink the water.
27 And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people.
28 And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed.
29 This is the law of jealousies, when a wife goeth aside to another instead of her husband, and is defiled;
30 Or when the spirit of jealousy cometh upon him, and he be jealous over his wife, and shall set the woman before the Lord, and the priest shall execute upon her all this law.
31 Then shall the man be guiltless from iniquity, and this woman shall bear her iniquity.
Forced abortion is an abomination in any culture.
Last edited by Brian Smith; February 10th, 2013 at 01:30 PM.
Last edited by Coward92; February 10th, 2013 at 03:06 PM.
As for modern homophobia, Christianity did not create homophobia but it spread homophobia across the Western world. As for humans sacrifice this was a rare thing in the European Pagan world. In fact the Old Testament are full of examples of human sacrifice to Yahweh. Also I wouldn't say that Christianity "domesticated" the Pagan world because in reality it tought them religious intolerance, sex and body hatred as well as extreme sexism and homophobia. Also as for the Anglo-Saxons from my research I don't think that receptive partners were treated like dogs as much as they were basically considered on the same level as women and thus did not have the full rights of a man.
I am aware that many Christians support gay rights however Christianity and all of the Abrahamic religions are springs of homophobia.
Last edited by Mariatenebre; February 10th, 2013 at 03:10 PM.
It was already there. Ancient Europe was an extremely misogynistic culture, for the most part, and "passive" male homosexuals got very short shrift.Christianity did not create homophobia but it spread homophobia across the Western world.
It was actually more common than you think, and so was slavery. Also, the ancient Pagans were often incredibly racist. Pagan Europe was not some fine utopia that Christianity rudely intruded upon. The truth about its history is a lot more complicated.As for humans sacrifice this was a rare thing in the European Pagan world.
The rivals of Christianity did not just sit there quietly and peacefully. Try to comprehend in your mind a Europe in which there was not only Christianity, but there were many other religions there that were competing for absolute dominance. Each was literally intent on trouncing all other religions out of existence. This includes Tengrism, which was at one time a very strong contender for dominance in parts of Europe. The Pagans were not helpless cupcakes by any stretch of the imagination. They fought long and hard, and they were not intent on staying nicely in one place.
Now, as for how homosexuality was treated by the Anglo-Saxons, how it was treated in practice probably varied with the time period, but it was actually a crime in early Germanic law. According to Tacitus, those condemned for homosexuality, cowardice or infamy were thrown into a bog or something similar. This was before Christianity really took root in that culture.
It was actually a philosophical movement that really led to gay people being persecuted so widely, though. Under the idea of individuals like Thomas Aquinas, many governments outlawed a number of things that were deemed "unnatural," and homosexuality was on the list. This was not a theological movement as much as it was a philosophical movement in the context of a culture that was largely dominated by Christianity.
History is not as cut-and-dried as it is often made out to be.
Last edited by Brian Smith; February 10th, 2013 at 04:10 PM.
and Brian Smith, it seems to me you thinks you know it all, and are 'teaching' us what history really was. Seems a bit arrogant to me. You provide no sources for these 'truth's you are expounding here.
Actually all of this you are putting out is your interpretation. I hope you can accept this?
What is history but a fable agreed upon?
What matters now is Christian homophopbia, and how the myth of Christianity has caused so much misery in the world. You miss all this out in your praise of it. I am not accepting your version of history. It does not gell with mine.