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  1. #151
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: MLKs Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    It wouldn't matter if we were like seahorses and males carried the unborn.
    No, it does matter, because it shows that the people who this actually concerns directly, who are faced with these situations, have to make the choice and live with the consequences either way, are largely NOT on the anti-choice side. That tells us something, and you'd be walking on very thin ice trying to answer me what exactly.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  2. #152
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    Re: MLKs Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    No, it does matter, because it shows that the people who this actually concerns directly, who are faced with these situations, have to make the choice and live with the consequences either way, are largely NOT on the anti-choice side. That tells us something, and you'd be walking on very thin ice trying to answer me what exactly.
    So you are saying that if men were involved in carrying the unborn until they were born that your views would be different?

  3. #153
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    Re: MLKs Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Jockboy just because I find the discussions of personal morality kinda pointless (neither of us are going to change the other's minds) I'm curious about the practical implications of what you would "like to see happen in the world."

    Let's say abortion was banned, globally. Or let's say it had been banned globally 20 years ago. What do you think the impact on the global human population would be in that situation?
    If you find discussions about moral responsibility pointless -- why are you commenting in this thread?

    People would take responsibility and use birth control instead of using abortion as birth control. I'm sure you're trying to imply that the world would be over populated because abortion was illegal. I think the number is around 55 million extra American citizens would have been born instead of killed by abortion in the last 40 years. One of those 55 million may have had the answer to cure cancer -- if I would agree with your thinking then it's a good thing that he/she wasn't born because if cancer were eradicated -- there would be more people on the earth -- which is bad thing.

    The logic doesn't make any sense does it. Cancer is not a good thing.

  4. #154
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    Re: MLKs Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by FuryOfFirestorm View Post
    Fetuses and embryos are "alive" in the same way that plants and bacteria are "alive". If embryos and fetuses are awarded the same protection as actual self-aware human beings, then that means eating plants and using antibiotics should also be illegal, since we'll be killing "living" things.

    "Alive" =/= "self-aware"

    BTW- A lot of "pro-lifers" are also "pro-death" penalty. So they'll make NO exceptions for rape or incest victims, but frying a human being alive is totally OK, especially since it saves taxpayer dollars. No hypocrisy there. No sir, not at all.
    Human beings don't give birth to plants or bacteria. Your comparison is silly.

  5. #155
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: MLKs Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    So you are saying that if men were involved in carrying the unborn until they were born that your views would be different?
    No, he's saying so many men happy to condemn abortion and say it shouldn't be legal would sing a different tune if the law mandated what happened to their body for 9 months + 18 years of legal and financial responsibility including in situations where they are not fit to take on that responsibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    If you find discussions about moral responsibility pointless -- why are you commenting in this thread?
    Because this issue is not solely about the 'morality' of what happens to a brainless, thoughtless embryo. It's also about the right of humans to control their bodies and their reproduction.

    People would take responsibility and use birth control instead of using abortion as birth control.
    Jack, please. This is the same type of argument that underlines most conservative issue. "There's no problem with guns, people just need to be responsible." It's not reality. Let's discuss reality for a change. The only difference between illegal abortion America and legal abortion America is that a lot less women die from infection or bleeding to death in the hotel room where a doctor met them to get an abortion.

  6. #156
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Yes, like buzzer said. What I'm saying is that of it were MEN who had to go through shit, they'd be a lot slower in making quick sweeping moral judgments. It's easy when you don't have to deal with it yourself.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  7. #157
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    Re: MLKs Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Thank you Centex.

    My hope is that some of you have more respect for human life or a least are thinking about what an abortion actually does to something that is alive.
    As has been pointed out multiple times in this thread already, by a cadre of members; both male and female, Jewish, Catholic, Protestant, Buddhist, Agnostics, Athiests and "others," not to mention the full spectrum of political view points represented in this forum I would have to say that some serious thought has been put into this subject already.

    As a Moderator of this here forum, I could say that I've earned the rights to make that statement, and shut this thread down right here, and right now.

    And I probably should.

    However, after having read the entirety of this thread, along with the Blog that created the topic, this is what I've come to realize.

    Moral Absolutes were made, and continue to be made (not only in this thread, but in the overall debate outside of this website) where none actually exist.

    I agree with many of the posters in this thread, and I agree with the OP when he says:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer
    People would take responsibility and use birth control instead of using abortion as birth control.
    My best friend had an abortion when she was young and a dancer, and when she discovered that she had aborted twins it nearly destroyed her.

    My Sister had at least two abortions, without giving birth control before she got pregnant a second thought.

    To me I feel that attitude is the key to the debate here, and key to the blog that was posted to create this thread (but not mentioned) anywhere.

    So I can say that there seems to be something repugnant about that type of attitude.

    My point is, it's neither one or the other.

    My Libertarian streak, and my view as a Gay Man, is that Government doesn't have any business whatsoever attempting to "legislate" what a woman can or can't do with her body, anymore than I think that the Government has any business attempting to legislate what two consenting adults do within the the privacy of their bedrooms, or attempts to define for them the types of legal definitions that they're 'allowed' to when it comes to "marriage" and what constitutes "family."

    I personally feel that individuals who use abortion as a form of "birth control" are repugnant, and I'm offended that they would think that my tax dollars should in anyway contribute toward that attitude and view.

    Just like my Sister thinks that I'm repugnant because I love Men and prefer having sexual relations with them over Woman.

    I'm not asking anyone to pay for anything, except that they shut the fuck up, keep their legs closed, and at the very least get on "the pill" or get with this Gay Man and I'll get you all of the free condoms that you could want at the local AIDS Resource Center.

    So Jack Springer you want some of us to share our view on this topis as "Gay Men" then there's mine.

    Our public schools don't really teach "sex education," but there isn't a NATIONAL DEBATE about that is there?

    AIDS is still the "Gay Plague" in many places that I know, but if you want "free contraception" to avoid getting it all you have to do is ask.

    If you want to avoid getting pregnant, then the answer is "abstain" from having sex.

    As if that's truly going to prevent the 40 Million + abortions that are said to have happened since Roe v. Wade.

    So quite honestly I find those who claim to be "Pro Life" as nothing more than hyperbole.

    I'm pretty sure that if many of us look around they'll find someone that they know who's either had an abortion, or knows someone who has.

    Just like you'll find someone who's Gay.

    But this whole Moral Absolute view about abortion does nothing to advance the discussion, or to find any solutions.

    While reading all of the posts that were made in this thread, both prior to the "edit" and after, I can find reason from all sides here.

    I'm not conflicted about where I stand on the topic, and apparently neither are a lot of others.

    We've all had the chance to speak our piece about it, and I think its fair that many of the opinions expressed here are a reflection of what's being expressed out in the real world.

    Abortion isn't going anywhere. That's a fact!

    What needs to change, IMHO are our attitudes about it, and what we can truly honestly do to try to prevent them in the first place.

    I've found that those who want to "moralize" about the topic offer few if any solutions, and if anything only complicate the debate with what's perceived by many as being hypocrisy; Pro Life, but Pro War, Pro Death Penalty. Anti Abortion, but Anti Birth Control too. Personal responsibility, but against education, or providing the tools to make the right choice/decisions.

    And to me that's just head in the said bullshit, which is one of many reasons why I don't see any Moral Absolutes within this debate as having any valid standing.

    Mi dos centavos.

    Proceed...
    Favorite comment quote read on Youtube: "My Laptop fell off the back of the boat, and now I have a Dell Rolling in the Deep."

  8. #158
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    Re: MLKs Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Shut it down.

  9. #159
    Virtus in medio stat JUB Admin opinterph's Avatar
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    Re: MLKs Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Thread closed.

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