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  1. #101
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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Abrahamics? WTF?

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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    ^^^

    Yeah, he said black people were poor and not educated. Reread what he said.
    No, no, no, Jack_Springer. You *do not* get to cop out of this thread. I took the time to actually provide a counter-argument to your topic, and you don't even have the common courtesy to correctly read or respond to my post.

    You are the one making this an issue of race by incorrectly simplifying that blacks are having more abortions because they're black. To make an accusation of genocide is to single-out a group by race. My entire post was dedicated to the argument that high poverty in a low socio-economic population demographic is what is responsible for a higher rate of abortions to an at-risk female population. In the exact same post, I pointed out that *any* (not just black) population demographic showing those same impoverished trends will be more at risk to consider an abortion.

    So you need to reread my post, or at the very least, just read this one and take your own damn discussion seriously.
    Last edited by Just_Believe18; January 24th, 2013 at 06:53 PM.
    #439th oldest member on JUB.

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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Abrahamics? WTF?
    Christians are Abrahamics.

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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    Kind of like a coma patient with a reasonable chance of living.

    He or she would never know the difference if you just pulled the feeding tube.
    And the difference between a coma patient and these non lives is that again said coma patient is a living, intelligent and sentient person and a zygote is not. Again science!

  5. #105
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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    Kind of like a coma patient with a reasonable chance of living.

    He or she would never know the difference if you just pulled the feeding tube.
    Yes I already acknowledged earlier in this discussion that in certain vegetative states or appalling quality of life conditions.. it is already perfectly legal to end human life.

    And I might add those ARE people with fully developed, matured brains and consciousness.

    So your argument is sorta floating in the middle of nowhere.

  6. #106
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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    I agree that persons with no quality of life should be allowed access to euthanasia.

    Drawing attention to those with a reasonable expectation of recovery from a coma, removal of life support would be the same as an abortion in my opinion.
    But we're not required to surgically attach someone else to the coma patient for 9 months to make that happen and force that decision on their body. Which would be as unethical as government mandated carrying to term.

  7. #107
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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    It's unfortunate, but nonetheless irrelevant.
    What's irrelevant is turning this entire discussion into your personal view on whether or not abortion is good.

    Unless you feel some sort of intentional 'genocide' against black children is somehow a nefarious intent behind what is today the law of the land this is all off topic.

  8. #108
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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    What's irrelevant is turning this entire discussion into your personal view on whether or not abortion is good.
    Regardless of his personal view, I have found his contributions to this thread to be enlightening, coherent, and thought provoking.

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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    I'm curious to know why you waited so long for this declaration.
    I said it two pages back:

    I don't know what sorts of responses either of you two are looking for. At this point all I can say is, it's the law of the land and a majority of Americans support it.

    You don't have to feel abortions are good.
    Perhaps you didn't read it.

  10. #110
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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    I did see that but you didn't accuse me of hijacking or derailing.
    I wouldn't have except you had the nerve to say what I was saying was irrelevant when I am addressing this off topic discussion of your personal morality.

  11. #111
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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    I hope I always have the nerve to speak for what I understand to be true, even if drowned out by 100 jubbers.
    Oh, MARY!!

  12. #112
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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    I hope I always have the nerve to speak for what I understand to be true, even if drowned out by 100 jubbers. Understand that your contributions are not themselves irrelevant to the discussion, if that is what you thought I meant, only the issue of attachment when evaluating the termination of dependent persons.
    That value placement is going to be subjective. For example, you agree with euthanasia. So you're not unconditionally for preserving any human life under any circumstances. Someone could make your exact same argument except about Terri Schiavo. So when it's in the realm of people's subjective value-attachment there isn't all that much purpose trying to persuade each other.

    Full circle...

  13. #113
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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    It's unfortunate, but nonetheless irrelevant.
    Irrelevant? Human rights are irrelevant? Are you for real? This sort of "no-discussion" dispassionate attitude is really bugging me. Yes, the fact that you FORCE another human being to SLAVE for the new organism, is very much relevant. It literally FEEDS OFF the mother. To claim it's somehow her duty to let herself be used in such a way, is borderline monstrous.

    At least Springer and co. pretend to have arguments and invent idiotic theories like the one in the OP. You are just sorta going "well, tough luck, women, suck it up"...
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  14. #114
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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Abrahamics? WTF?
    Kind of like aerobics. but you need a robe, sandals, and a beard.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  15. #115
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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    I;m intrigued by the fact that I posted a set of quite substantive statements about the issue a number of posts back, and only one has been commented on, while the majority of posts since have held little reason and much emotion.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  16. #116
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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    I hope I always have the nerve to speak for what I understand to be true, even if drowned out by 100 jubbers. Understand that your contributions are not themselves irrelevant to the discussion, if that is what you thought I meant, only the issue of attachment when evaluating the termination of dependent persons.
    From the start of this thread, I knew that most here would not agree with my view of abortion -- however, I feel very strongly about the issue and see if from a different standpoint from the majority here.

    Should I or anyone else who has a minority view of something on CEP or in the public forum 'shut up' because they have strong beliefs or opinions? I don't think so.

    I'll continue to hold to my beliefs no matter what the cost and respect those who feel the same.

  17. #117
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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    I am not a victim. I did not answer because Rolyo wanted to derail the thread and make it about him and his views and degrade my views on other subjects. He has amble time and ability to create his own thread.

  18. #118
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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    From the start of this thread, I knew that most here would not agree with my view of abortion -- however, I feel very strongly about the issue and see if from a different standpoint from the majority here.
    . . . .
    I'll continue to hold to my beliefs no matter what the cost and respect those who feel the same.
    And we're still waiting to hear a rational basis for those views.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  19. #119
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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    I am not a victim. I did not answer because Rolyo wanted to derail the thread and make it about him and his views and degrade my views on other subjects. He has amble time and ability to create his own thread.
    Actually, I just summed up questions that practically EVERYONE before me had already answered. Or was EVERYONE out to get you, setting "traps" for you? No, the sad truth is that these questions are part of the equation, and you can't discuss abortion without discussing them.

    Your stance is "abortion is bad, the end". Our question is "ok, let's make abortion illegal, what happens after?" Refusing to answer that is refusing to have a meaningful discussion on the issue YOU brought up. I'm sorry if you can only go as far as "dun liek abroshins", because that gets nobody anywhere. If the societal need for abortions didn't exist, THEY wouldn't exist. Since they do, obviously they fulfill a societal need. If you want them gone, you should offer alternatives to fulfilling that need.

    And the first step is showing where you stand on government-funded programs to support the fetus after it's no longer a fetus. Will you finally do that, or will you keep insisting that talking on the topic is derailing it? I think it's been clear for QUITE some time now that nobody takes the bullshit article from the OP seriously, so you can either have a discussion on abortion and the broader ramifications of it, or you can ask the mods to lock the topic. Your choice, as usual.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  20. #120
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    From the start of this thread, I knew that most here would not agree with my view of abortion -- however, I feel very strongly about the issue and see if from a different standpoint from the majority here.

    Should I or anyone else who has a minority view of something on CEP or in the public forum 'shut up' because they have strong beliefs or opinions? I don't think so.

    I'll continue to hold to my beliefs no matter what the cost and respect those who feel the same.
    Jack nobody told you that you aren't entitled to your beliefs. But we did ask why this dogmatic respect for the value of human life gets applied selectively depending on the issue at hand, particularly when such a strong belief in the value by itself is such a driving force behind the conservative argument against abortion.

    We can't see how it's sincere when it totally evaporates in other contexts-- anything not involving a fetus.

    [quoted text and responses removed]

    Quote Originally Posted by FuryOfFirestorm View Post
    The key word here is "criticize". Criticizing her choices is worlds apart from controlling what she does with her uterus, which is what Republicans are trying to do.

    As for adoptions- it is expensive, it takes months (if not years), and many places will not let single people or gay couples adopt.

    Finally, stop bringing up your stupid "immigrants" bullshit. If anything, you should love abortions since it prevents more 'filthy' immigrants from being born.
    Not to mention as I raised earlier in this thread, this discussion was started specifically in reference to abortions and black children, and black children have an inordinately difficult time being adopted in the United States. People will even wait list to get a baby from China or the Ukraine generally over adopting a black kid in need of a home right here. I find it disingenuous of a country that won't adopt black children to castigate black women in poverty who may consider the option of abortion.
    Last edited by Centexfarmer; January 28th, 2013 at 05:32 PM. Reason: Violation of Posting CE&P PG, Mod discretion

  21. #121
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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    Correct.

    Saving a human life is paramount to all else.
    False. This claim means that any human right can be trumped in order to save human life. It states that the victim of a burglar should leave him be so as not to endanger his life. And it calls for slavery.

    Like I said - monstrous. Not to mention dystopian: the mother as some rightless breeding mare, incapacitated and forced to slave away for the glory of the new "human life"...
    Last edited by Rolyo85; January 25th, 2013 at 11:42 AM.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  22. #122
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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    Also, the United States ranked 19th on the Democracy Index in 2011, behind Uruguay (17th) and ahead of Costa Rica (20th) and Spain (25th).

    So, Benvolio, don't say Hispanic countries can't have 1st class economies or democracies.



    Please see the post #185, the comments in bold.
    Oops my bad! Makes sense now, sorry.

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post

    That's true.

    There is no carte blanche castle defense where it is common law.
    Well you don't seem interested in discussing this - you present it as an absolute, the end, that's that, end of story - so I guess we're done.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  24. #124
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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by Mariatenebre View Post
    First of all to compare abortion to the longstanding human rights violations of the Jews shows your stupidity. Abortion is not causeing a genocide as the majority of white people are not getting abortions nor are white people in any danger of being wiped out.
    True, but this guy's worldview is utterly full of crap anyhow. He's happy to insist that even overtly intentional genocidal policies aren't actually genocide or bad when it comes to nonwhite people in history, but 'immigration' is a form of genocide against whites? Give me a break.

    On that logic I think reality television is committing genocide. Against my brain.

  25. #125
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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Alright Gentleman. This thread must be a record!

    60 Posts have been deleted, I'd imagine about a dozen more have been edited, and one members participation has been completely removed from this thread.

    I would like to remind each of you the the Code of Conduct for JUB is still in effect:

    Please do not use language that sounds like, stands for, hints at, abbreviates, or insinuates hate speech (including but not limited to racial, ethnic, sexual, or religious slurs) or illegal activities.
    The Current Events and Politics Posting Guidelines are still being enforced:

    COURTESY & RESPECT

    When debating, express your opinion about a person's ideas, not about them personally. Any post containing a direct personal insult will be removed or edited, regardless of the content of the rest of the post.

    Do not engage in baiting; either creating threads for that purpose, or in posts toward other members. Do not disrupt the flow of conversation by making statements or insinuations that are deliberately inflammatory or which expand a disagreement from one discussion to another.

    Never insult or impugn the character of another Jubber through posts, threads, PMs, or comments. If you find yourself having difficulty refraining from insulting, baiting or other negative impulses, please log off for a while to calm down.
    This thread is barely on life support, and some of you posting here are on thin ice.

    It won't take much for me to come back in here and shut this thread down.
    Last edited by Centexfarmer; January 28th, 2013 at 11:16 PM. Reason: two more posts added
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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Thank you Centex.

    My hope is that some of you have more respect for human life or a least are thinking about what an abortion actually does to something that is alive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Thank you Centex.

    My hope is that some of you have more respect for human life or a least are thinking about what an abortion actually does to something that is alive.
    Yes. I'm thinking what it does to a living pregnant woman.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  28. #128
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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Thank you Centex.

    My hope is that some of you have more respect for human life or a least are thinking about what an abortion actually does to something that is alive.
    Without defining your terms, this is meaningless. It's like a discussion between three people about evolution, when one means the observable fact of the emergence of new species, another means the change from an original single cell to the multitude of species we now see, and one who means everything starting with the Big Bang: they may be using the same term, but until it is defined they are talking nonsense.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  29. #129
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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Thank you Centex.

    My hope is that some of you have more respect for human life or a least are thinking about what an abortion actually does to something that is alive.
    A tumor is "alive" as well....

    ...since it is alive and grows inside our body perhaps we should "respect" that as well..eh?

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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by eastofeden View Post
    A tumor is "alive" as well....

    ...since it is alive and grows inside our body perhaps we should "respect" that as well..eh?
    That's an iffy comparison, but it does land spot on in one aspect: the deciding factor as to whether something is a human being is not the DNA inside the tissue, but whether there is intelligence present.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    Correct.

    Saving a human life is paramount to all else.



    I am glad that not everyone shares your opinion...
    Correct saving a human life is pantamount to all else and forcing an actual life to sacrifice themselves for a potential or non life is wrong.

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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Thank you Centex.

    My hope is that some of you have more respect for human life or a least are thinking about what an abortion actually does to something that is alive.
    How many times do we have to tell you Jack Springer that according to the scientific standpoint said fetus/embryo/cluster of cells does not count as a life. I also suppose you want us to swallow that the Earth was poofed into existence and that we live on a flat Earth in a Geocentric universe as with other anti sciencers.

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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Thank you Centex.

    My hope is that some of you have more respect for human life or a least are thinking about what an abortion actually does to something that is alive.
    Your hope? This thread should have remained in the abyss and locked permanently. The basis of it is inflammatory. It does not encourage discussion nor invite differing opinions to congregate equally. I, along with others here, have already addressed the fallacy that is this blog that Jack_Springer referenced. When called out on it, Jack_Springer has still not addressed the points I made, nor is he interested in engaging in anyone else on this discussion.

    Centex, I disagree with how this thread was handled, and am sorry you had to spend so much time editing and removing cancerous posts from a malignant tumor thread.


    This thread is headed towards a permanent lock. Just wait.
    #439th oldest member on JUB.

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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    Tumors do not maintain their own metabolism or homeostasis.
    However, they do share a complete lack of any identifiable intelligence or consciousness with an early stage embryo. You haven't ended a human life -- you've ended a potential for human life at some later point. Would a 21 year old girl having her uterus or ovaries removed for medical reasons be "murdering" children?

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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    I am curious about something.....

    To the anti choice people here...do you have the guts to look a woman in the eye and tell her that what she does with her body is YOUR business...not hers? Tell her that you want to legislate her womb?

    I ask this because I find that alot of homophobes would never have the nerve to look you in the eye and tell you that you do not deserve equality under the law.

    It is easy to demonize people behind a keyboard or while carrying a sign but who has the guts to tell a woman one on one that you know better than her what is right for her? Or that you don't care if she is raped or not (referencing jockboy's proclamation)..it is her duty to carry the child?

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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    But you're defining human life in a different way for a number of cells dividing in the womb than you are for, let's say, people in unrecoverable vegetative states or similarly "brain dead" states of life, as earlier in the thread you expressed support of euthanasia.

    I mean frankly from where I'm standing you have a double argument here, you're assigning something sacred to cells that are dividing even with absolutely no brain or brain pattern to speak of. Even if you were to withdraw your support of euthanasia in the case of a brain dead or vegetative person or removal from life support (which is already legal as well) you haven't persuasively given any reason for anyone to accept your insistence that an early stage embryo is sacred human life other than because you say so.

    I mean I'm waiting for you to support your contention that a pre-brain pre-brain pattern clump of cells is sacred human life with something other than "cause it is." It isn't a human life, it has no consciousness, no identity. You have not made clear on what basis everyone else should accept that this is or should be a universal definition of human life, and it's particularly problematic when you're okay with termination of life in adult vegetative states, because it appears your goalposts change.

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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    You speak of life at the terminal stage, whereas abortion is a question about the initial stage. Terminally ill or vegetative people have no future.
    That's not true of all of them, it's a question of chance. Just as it's a question of chance if any embryo will ever reach term.

    People do make late-game recoveries, or come out of comas. It does happen. It may just be unlikely to happen. In most of those cases I doubt very much anyone is making a keep-or-terminate decision based off 100% probabilities because it's very rare for there to be such a thing in medicine. They're making a quality of life decision. As is a mother with a pregnancy she is not prepared to handle to term-- for whatever reason.

    You don't have to feel that's okay but it's not murder-- in either scenario. In neither case is a thinking, active human brain being destroyed with an awareness of who and what it is and what's being done to it. It's perfectly fine with me to agree to disagree with you on that personal definition of what constitutes a human being. But I was just pointing out that your whole position rests on an assumption that an embryo, even at a stage where it may literally be just a grouping of cells and is not even as capable of perception as lichen or fungus, is fully viable and extant human life from the moment sperm breaches egg and cell division begins. I know religious people would largely share that point of view but it is by no means universal nor scientifically quantifiable.

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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    We legislate what people may or may not do all the time, especially to prevent loss of life. We legislate what people may or may not do with their arms, legs, and hands. The womb is no different. One ought not to be allowed to end life with any of those body parts.
    Nice dodge...or is this exactly what you would say to a woman? I know alot of strong and capable women....and I would love to watch you say that to one of them. Let them know their womb is YOUR business...because that is what you are saying. I know...you want to put it nicer but "nice" doesn't always cut it when you are fucking with other people's lives. You might be putting that woman in a living hell so at least you can say that you could give a shit about her personal experience because your OPINION trumps her life and her choices.



    I would not presume to tell anybody that his or her parents were in their right to contemplate abortion, or that anybody him or herself has that right to do so to others.
    I would have no problem telling someone that..that life is full of choices and conflicts and battles of one's conscious (or lack of one I suppose). If they don't already know that it would be a gift to let them in on that.

    The rest of your post was probably best kept to yourself...
    I disagree

    This false analogy just falls flat on its face. There is no equivalency between the abortion debate and marriage equality whatsoever. The most probable reason one is being made is because parties on either side of both are usually in bed with one another. I am not impressed in the least by this comparison; it's rather insulting, and sets the entire tone of the discussion a step backward.
    There IS an equivalency...PERSONAL CHOICES.

    Putting words into peoples' mouths and raising strawmen is disrespectful. I expect the same level of respect from you that you would expect for yourself, and which I have returned already.
    LOL..from the guy who just ...put words in my mouth. We went through this already but here we go again....

    This is what I said....

    It is easy to demonize people behind a keyboard or while carrying a sign but who has the guts to tell a woman one on one that you know better than her what is right for her? Or that you don't care if due to the circumstances of the pregnancy she is raped or not (referencing jockboy's proclamation)..it is her duty to carry the child?

    I changed it a bit to reflect my actual meaning and in response to something you actually said....

    First, you know that pro-life people are not demonizing, a word which means to portray someone as evil, so attacking that strawman will get you nowhere.
    I do NOT "know" that. Don't assign me a position I did not take. I have seen the baby killer signs and heard the lectures...you're legislation will make criminals out of millions of women...and you stand there lecturing me about honest discourse and respect while you claim you are not demonizing them? On what planet?

    Second, nobody ever said they do not care about rape, only that is immaterial to the question of preserving life.
    Yeah...I understand perfectly. You think abortion is not even justified in the case of rape. I feel justified having the OPINION that anyone who holds your opinion has a shocking lack of empathy and cannot see beyond their own OPINION to understand they are fucking with someone else's life...and in the case of rape...their MIND...because they are prisoners of the MIND...that is what rape does. Among other things rape makes you think you have no control over your body and it is quite serious...and then you are there to tell them YOU want control now. UGH Your solution is to make the nightmare of rape a permanent state if you insist they carry the child....so not caring about rape is the logical conclusion for me.

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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by eastofeden View Post
    A tumor is "alive" as well....

    ...since it is alive and grows inside our body perhaps we should "respect" that as well..eh?
    Were you a tumor in your mother's body? no

    No tumors result in the birth of a human being.

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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide


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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    As JockBoy said we have laws that regulate the human body -- your argument is shallow.

    Almost all women who get pregnant understand what caused the situation. The government demands that all women have free access to birth control and yet abortion increases. Most women look at pregnancy as a joy.

    Yes, I've spoken publicly about how I see abortion as a bad thing and cannot be tolerated anymore ... and yes, there was eye contact.

    I still think that someone who is gay would understand how horrible it is to remove the basic human right of life to someone who unable to fight for themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by eastofeden View Post
    I am curious about something.....

    To the anti choice people here...do you have the guts to look a woman in the eye and tell her that what she does with her body is YOUR business...not hers? Tell her that you want to legislate her womb?

    I ask this because I find that alot of homophobes would never have the nerve to look you in the eye and tell you that you do not deserve equality under the law.

    It is easy to demonize people behind a keyboard or while carrying a sign but who has the guts to tell a woman one on one that you know better than her what is right for her? Or that you don't care if she is raped or not (referencing jockboy's proclamation)..it is her duty to carry the child?

  42. #142
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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Embryos are not humans, Jack. They have NO human rights. According to law, as well as nature. Deal with it.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Also, I find it very funny that the anti-choice crowd isn't aware of its rampant sexism. If the issue was so pure and clear as they think it is, they wouldn't be 90% male...
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    As JockBoy said we have laws that regulate the human body -- your argument is shallow.

    Almost all women who get pregnant understand what caused the situation. The government demands that all women have free access to birth control and yet abortion increases. Most women look at pregnancy as a joy.

    Yes, I've spoken publicly about how I see abortion as a bad thing and cannot be tolerated anymore ... and yes, there was eye contact.

    I still think that someone who is gay would understand how horrible it is to remove the basic human right of life to someone who unable to fight for themselves.
    I am going to leave this discussion with a few comments....

    I am a gay person who is not a misogynist and I don't relate to your argument at all.

    I do not consider a fetus a life. You do.

    I am infinitely more concerned about the actual people who are living and making sure there is a quality of life and as a Republican your concern for life ends at birth and that disgusts me more than I can say. We are forever at odds.

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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Fetuses and embryos are "alive" in the same way that plants and bacteria are "alive". If embryos and fetuses are awarded the same protection as actual self-aware human beings, then that means eating plants and using antibiotics should also be illegal, since we'll be killing "living" things.

    "Alive" =/= "self-aware"

    BTW- A lot of "pro-lifers" are also "pro-death" penalty. So they'll make NO exceptions for rape or incest victims, but frying a human being alive is totally OK, especially since it saves taxpayer dollars. No hypocrisy there. No sir, not at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eastofeden View Post
    I am infinitely more concerned about the actual people who are living and making sure there is a quality of life and as a Republican your concern for life ends at birth and that disgusts me more than I can say. We are forever at odds.
    This is really all that can be said in a discussion in which one side insists on just throwing grand statements around but refuses to discuss their ramifications...
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

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    Quote Originally Posted by eastofeden View Post
    I am infinitely more concerned about the actual people who are living and making sure there is a quality of life and as a Republican your concern for life ends at birth and that disgusts me more than I can say. We are forever at odds.
    This is really all that can be said in a discussion in which one side insists on just throwing grand statements around but refuses to discuss their ramifications...
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

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    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    As JockBoy said we have laws that regulate the human body -- your argument is shallow.

    Almost all women who get pregnant understand what caused the situation. The government demands that all women have free access to birth control and yet abortion increases. Most women look at pregnancy as a joy.

    Yes, I've spoken publicly about how I see abortion as a bad thing and cannot be tolerated anymore ... and yes, there was eye contact.

    I still think that someone who is gay would understand how horrible it is to remove the basic human right of life to someone who unable to fight for themselves.
    I'm actually faintly, vaguely insulted in a passing sort of way that what you've implied is that "as a gay man" I should relate to a clump of cells that has no brainwave pattern at all.

    I like to think (most days at least) I'm a little smarter than that.

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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Jockboy just because I find the discussions of personal morality kinda pointless (neither of us are going to change the other's minds) I'm curious about the practical implications of what you would "like to see happen in the world."

    Let's say abortion was banned, globally. Or let's say it had been banned globally 20 years ago. What do you think the impact on the global human population would be in that situation?

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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Jockboy just because I find the discussions of personal morality kinda pointless (neither of us are going to change the other's minds) I'm curious about the practical implications of what you would "like to see happen in the world."

    Let's say abortion was banned, globally. Or let's say it had been banned globally 20 years ago. What do you think the impact on the global human population would be in that situation?
    If I understand him correctly, he comes from the perspective of "it really doesn't matter, all that matters is saving the potential human life, whatever the consequences, whatever the cost, no ifs, ands or buts". I could be wrong, but so far that's the impression I've gotten.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

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