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  1. #1
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    MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    I don't expect that this will be a very popular thread, I even doubt many will read the attached article -- but it covers some things that need to be said.

    Yesterday was Martin Luther King, Jr. Day and today is the 40th anniversary of Roe vs. Wade. Two items you wouldn't think would go together -- however they do.

    I've not been shy about expressing my thoughts about abortion. I think it's legalized murder.

    http://www.desiringgod.org/blog/post...black-genocide

    Abortion is much more prevalent in the African-American community.

    A decade ago Childress founded a website by and for African Americans (blackgenocide.org) “to expose the disproportionate amount of Black babies destroyed by the abortion industry. For every two African American women that get pregnant, one will choose to abort.”

    The site laments that “a Black baby is 5 times more likely to be killed in the womb than a White Baby.” Childress says, “The most dangerous place for an African American to be is in the womb of their African American mother.”
    Much was said yesterday at the Inauguration of the rights of minorities and gays -- Obama even talked about the horrible deaths of the 20 young children last month -- but no mention of the 3,200 who are killed on an average day in the US by mothers making the barbaric decision to end a beating heart.

    MLK's niece, Dr. Alveda C. King said this . . .

    [Martin Luther] King [Jr.] once said, “The Negro cannot win as long as he is willing to sacrifice the lives of his children for comfort and safety.” How can the “Dream” survive if we murder the children? Every aborted baby is like a slave in the womb of his or her mother. . . . If the Dream of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. is to live, our babies must live. Our mothers must choose life. If we refuse to answer the cry of mercy from the unborn, and ignore the suffering of the mothers, then we are signing our own death warrants.
    If anything guys, I want you to think about the rights of the unborn. They deserve rights and the respect of everyone also. To treat the unborn like a disease or a cold does not make sense in a civilized society.

    As a gay/bisexual man you should understand the need for the unborn to have basic human rights.

    As the article points out abortion is black genocide. Is it too much to ask you to think about the ramifications of abortion.

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    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    The only "barbaric" thing about this is the misogynist notion that you can tell women what to do with their bodies. Everything else is just another tired spin on a topic that you are not open to any real discussion on, where you base your entire position on religious dogma, and where you use language nobody but you accepts.

    And KNOWING all that, why did you even waste the time to post it?


    And you could have made a productive contribution instead, by pointing out the unequal treatment of blacks in society, and how they so often don't have the necessary living standards to support raising a kid. But no, you don't care about the living. Only the unborn. The child HAS to be born, at any cost, no matter what it takes, and what life it will have after.

    You, Jack, are peddling hypocrisy.
    Last edited by Rolyo85; January 22nd, 2013 at 12:20 PM.
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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Jack two things.

    1) There is, literally, no beating heart in an early stage abortion. In reference to your comment about "ending a beating heart."

    2) Why should I, as a gay man, identify with the unborn, as you claim? I'm born. Not unborn. A much more apt application of the logic you tried to use would be that gay men should identify with many or most other socially discriminated against groups-- for example, a gay man who wants equal rights, equal opportunities in the workplace and protection against unlawful harassment or termination should pretty much identify with racial minorities and women on 100% of those issues. We all know that's not the case though, don't we Jack?

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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Oh wow...you are actually quoting rabidly anti gay Alveda King? You want to hear some of her quotes on gay people?

    As for the rest of it...it is not your body so it is none of your business. As a gay man I identify strongly with that sentiment. If you dont' want an abortion...don't have one.

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    JUB Addict T-Rexx's Avatar
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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    I happen to agree that abortion is murder, and a horrible atrocity.

    About the only thing worse than abortion is the atrocity of banning abortion.

    If you would force all unwanted pregnancies to delivery, then you need to have some mechanism for dealing with those unwanted and unsupportable lives - and the terrible consequences they bring to society. Which, BTW, your political party opposes.

    You want to do the Christian thing when it means bringing all pregnancies to term, but you oppose the Christian thing when it means society caring for these people for the rest of their lives.

    Oh, and BTW, why aren't you starting threads objecting to the death penalty? That is murder, also.

    Much hypocrisy here.

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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    Another two things:

    1) Alveda King does not speak for her uncle. Martin Luther King was a progressive, while she is conservative. King's now deceased widow, Coretta Scott King, often defended Martin's left-wing views from Alveda and other conservatives.

    2) Neither the left nor right wings are interested in genocide for any group.
    Agreed, forced sterilizations or "stealth" sterilizations on poor women of color who came in for another procedure would be closer to the point of a talk about 'genocide.'

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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    I happen to agree that abortion is murder, and a horrible atrocity.

    About the only thing worse than abortion is the atrocity of banning abortion.

    If you would force all unwanted pregnancies to delivery, then you need to have some mechanism for dealing with those unwanted and unsupportable lives - and the terrible consequences they bring to society. Which, BTW, your political party opposes.

    You want to do the Christian thing when it means bringing all pregnancies to term, but you oppose the Christian thing when it means society caring for these people for the rest of their lives.

    Oh, and BTW, why aren't you starting threads objecting to the death penalty? That is murder, also.

    Much hypocrisy here.
    Yup if the opposition came with a pronounced support of public education, public child healthcare, assistance to struggling single mothers or families in poverty, and an opposition to the death penalty, I could take it seriously.

    Since it never is from the right, I don't. It's something for them to act morally superior about while never actually doing a practical thing to help change and knowing that it's not going away.

    When every black child in America that needs adoption or foster care isn't on wait lists and is being gobbled up into wanting homes at the rate white or imported Chinese babies are, the people complaining will have more of a reasonable cause to complain. But we're largely talking about people who apparently want the kid to be born and then tell the parents "deal with it yourself."

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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Here's a thought on hypocrisy...

    Do you want the government telling a woman what she can and cannot do with her body?

    Well...think about it long and hard because that can bite you and your ideological buddies in the ass real quick. If you ever get your way you will be setting a precedent so when overpopulation becomes more of a problem that it already is (and it is coming sooner than you think)...you will have been instrumental in letting the government force aborting babies as you decided it was a good idea to let the government tell women what they can and cannot do with their bodies. It is perfect now...If you want an abortion...have one. If not...no worries.

    One more thing...it isn't "Pro Life"...it is "Anti Choice"

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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    I didn't expect any support and so far haven't gotten much.

    At least it appears some of you may have read the article. Thank you. Hope it creates a little doubt in your support of mass murder.

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    JUB Addict maxpowr9's Avatar
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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    3) There is plenty of logical support on the pro-life anti-choice side. You don't need this clumsy theory that suggests a connection where none exists.
    Fixed that for you.

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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by eastofeden View Post
    Here's a thought on hypocrisy...

    Do you want the government telling a woman what she can and cannot do with her body?

    Well...think about it long and hard because that can bite you and your ideological buddies in the ass real quick. If you ever get your way you will be setting a precedent so when overpopulation becomes more of a problem that it already is (and it is coming sooner than you think)...you will have been instrumental in letting the government force abort babies as you decided it was a good idea to let the government tell women what they can and cannot do with their bodies. It is perfect now...If you want an abortion...have one. If not...no worries.

    One more thing...it isn't "Pro Life"...it is "Anti Choice"
    That's a very interesting angle.

    What would people who want abortion outlawed say about China's ability to dictate family size? That is the power you're giving the government once you give them power to control reproductive decisions.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    I didn't expect any support and so far haven't gotten much.

    At least it appears some of you may have read the article. Thank you. Hope it creates a little doubt in your support of mass murder.
    We do oppose mass murder.

    http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Alveda King,who wants to take away the choice she made twice away from other women.

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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    This ad has been rejected by NBC for airing during the Super Bowl, and CNN during coverage of President Obama's first State of the Union Address.
    Think about what it would be like if Obama's mother made the horrible decision to abort her baby. There are other "Obama's" out there that we will never get to hear.


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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Think about what it would be like if Obama's mother made the horrible decision to abort her baby. There are other "Obama's" out there that we will never get to hear.
    Obama's mother was a White woman..Since those articles you posted claim more Black women are having more abortions we can asume White women carrying Biracial-Obama-like babies will carry them to term....

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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide


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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    I don't expect that this will be a very popular thread, I even doubt many will read the attached article -- but it covers some things that need to be said.

    Yesterday was Martin Luther King, Jr. Day and today is the 40th anniversary of Roe vs. Wade. Two items you wouldn't think would go together -- however they do.

    I've not been shy about expressing my thoughts about abortion. I think it's legalized murder.

    http://www.desiringgod.org/blog/post...black-genocide

    Abortion is much more prevalent in the African-American community.



    Much was said yesterday at the Inauguration of the rights of minorities and gays -- Obama even talked about the horrible deaths of the 20 young children last month -- but no mention of the 3,200 who are killed on an average day in the US by mothers making the barbaric decision to end a beating heart.

    MLK's niece, Dr. Alveda C. King said this . . .



    If anything guys, I want you to think about the rights of the unborn. They deserve rights and the respect of everyone also. To treat the unborn like a disease or a cold does not make sense in a civilized society.

    As a gay/bisexual man you should understand the need for the unborn to have basic human rights.

    As the article points out abortion is black genocide. Is it too much to ask you to think about the ramifications of abortion.
    First of all as you have been told many times. A fetus,embryo, clusters of cell etc is not a life. It has no sentience, intelligence or personhood and has as much of these things as a jar of paste. We know when life develops in the womb and it does not happen until a later stage and before that stage people have every right to stop the development of these pontential and non lives. Further more any given animal has more sentience, intelligence and personhood then said pre life forms and I don't see pro lifers running out to be vegetarians. Also the article is bunk. The race that has more abortions per capita is white women as by and large they are the ones that can afford it. In fact due to poor education on birth control black women tend to have large ammounts of kids, more then whites in fact.

    Further more Alveda King shames her father as she is against gay rights and further more knows nothing about her father's history. Martin Luther King Jr. in fact supported such organizations as Planned Parenthood and was even given an award by them.

    http://jezebel.com/5977508/happy-mlk...-birth-control

    You need to accept science Jack Springer. No matter how much you try to assert it a fetus/embryo/cluster of cells is not a sentient, intelligent person nor is it every going to be. You are just as scientifically ignorant as the creationists.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    I didn't expect any support and so far haven't gotten much.

    At least it appears some of you may have read the article. Thank you. Hope it creates a little doubt in your support of mass murder.
    Except it is not mass murder as said pre lifeforms are not considered lives according to science and to claim that they are is an insult to the victimization of actual humans.
    Last edited by Centexfarmer; January 28th, 2013 at 04:22 PM. Reason: edited to remove a no longer existent post

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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    Apparently so, when the person you are arguing with does not see the mother as the sole interested party in pregnancy.
    The mindblowing part to me is that all day yesterday in a different topic he spent the entire time completely erasing a human death cost as being of any value or consideration.

    The inconsistency (even within this thread, the topics others have raised such as social services or death penalty) with which the political right places a value on human life is something I still struggle to grasp.

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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Think about what it would be like if Obama's mother made the horrible decision to abort her baby. There are other "Obama's" out there that we will never get to hear.
    Is this an awkward endorsement of the President?

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    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Jack, can you please answer these questions directly? They are relevant to the credibility of your stance and if you truly wish a discussion and not another bark fest, you need to address them;

    1. Where do you stand on the death penalty?

    2. Where do you stand on extensive government funded programs that take care of unwanted children?

    3. Where do you stand on extensive government funded programs that take care of single mothers during pregnancy and after giving birth?

    4. Where do you stand on extensive government funded programs that provide free psychiatric, as well as medical care to rape victims going through pregnancy?

    I took the time to engage you in actual discourse instead of bashing. Supposedly, that's what you wanted from this topic. I expect you to take equal time to respond in kind. Thank you.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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    JUB Addict T-Rexx's Avatar
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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Think about what it would be like if Obama's mother made the horrible decision to abort her baby. There are other "Obama's" out there that we will never get to hear.
    This argument is a non-sequitur.

    What if Mrs. Schicklgruber had aborted Hitler?

    What if Mrs. Stalin had aborted Josef?

    What if Mrs. Oswald had aborted Lee Harvey?


    You cannot judge the morality of all abortions on the outcome of any one. If Barack Obama had been aborted, it would have been because he was believed to be entering an unacceptable living situation. As such, he would not likely have risen to become president. As such, the loss to society would not have been the loss of a great president, but the loss of yet another unwanted child in yet another impoverished hovel.

    Yes, that is itself a horrific loss to society. I, for one, am willing to oppose abortion and pour tens of trillions of dollars into supporting these unwanted children. I think they should be given decent homes and adequate food and a college education. I think it the obligation of all of us to spend most of our national resources in this regard. Christianity demands of us nothing less than this.

    But, you do not agree.

    You want to pretend that eliminating abortion is somehow without moral turpitude. You pretend holiness even as you condemn your brothers to misery which you will not lift a finger to correct. Indeed, your party prides itself on demonizing these people.

    It is remarkable hypocrisy. Just remarkable.

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    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    This argument is a non-sequitur.

    What if Mrs. Schicklgruber had aborted Hitler?

    What if Mrs. Stalin had aborted Josef?

    What if Mrs. Oswald had aborted Lee Harvey?


    You cannot judge the morality of all abortions on the outcome of any one.
    And this is what truly baffles me. Does he seriously not see this counter-argument, or does he hope we won't see it?
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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    JUB Addict T-Rexx's Avatar
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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    And this is what truly baffles me. Does he seriously not see this counter-argument, or does he hope we won't see it?
    I have struggled all of my adult life to understand the conservative viewpoint. It is so obviously and incomprehensibly contradictory that I cannot understand how some (seemingly intelligent) people stick to its non-arguments so vehemently. I have come to believe that it is an emotional thing with them, not a logical one. They are willing even to deny reality in the support of their ideals.

    Most highly-educated people are liberal. I think that is because they simply give up on trying to reconcile the logical inconsistencies that are conservatism.

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    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    I have struggled all of my adult life to understand the conservative viewpoint. It is so obviously and incomprehensibly contradictory that I cannot understand how some (seemingly intelligent) people stick to its non-arguments so vehemently. I have come to believe that it is an emotional thing with them, not a logical one. They are willing even to deny reality in the support of their ideals.

    Most highly-educated people are liberal. I think that is because they simply give up on trying to reconcile the logical inconsistencies that are conservatism.
    In the U.S. I attribute most of it to the fact that we don't really have a true conservativism-driven movement at all, but rather a political alliance of mutual necessity between the religious and social far right with the economic far right... which really have very little to do with each other substantively. So these sudden jumps of angle like arguing for the big guy and against the individual with say corporations or the workplace or the economy can suddenly swing and be entirely about the individual on a church issue.

    It does definitely require contradiction that I don't get how they reconcile.

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    JUB Addict T-Rexx's Avatar
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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    The reason I go against the liberal grain on this one is the circumstances of my own birth. It gives me chills to think how close my birth mother was to pulling the switch.
    I agree completely.

    Abortion is a horrible, evil thing.

    But, we have yet, as a society, to find an alternative that is less horrific. It is a sad commentary on mankind.

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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    In the U.S. I attribute most of it to the fact that we don't really have a true conservativism-driven movement at all
    This is so true. America does not have a conservative party. We have Republicanism, which has little to do with conservatism. I believe our U.S. Democratic Party comes as close to an American conservative party as we have.

    There is nothing "conservative" about opposing civil rights or fostering racism. There is nothing "conservative" about hating gay people. There is nothing "conservative" about running up massive debts without paying the bills. There is nothing "conservative" about unrestricted military spending. There is nothing "conservative" about starting wars. There is nothing "conservative" about pseudo-science. There is nothing "conservative" about Christianity.


    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    It does definitely require contradiction that I don't get how they reconcile.
    I suppose most voters don't think about things that deeply.

    But, the party leaders are another story. Are they truly that illogical? Or, is it that they are so determined to advance the cause of a tiny minority that they do not care about the welfare of the nation?

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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    That line of reasoning is very compelling to a lot of people.

    The reason I go against the liberal grain on this one is the circumstances of my own birth. It gives me chills to think how close my birth mother was to pulling the switch.
    That is the exact opposite for me. The only reason I was even able to forgive my mother was because when I asked her if she could have had an abortion (it wasn't legal or easy)...would she have? She said yes. Thank God...because if she intentionally brought children into her world of violence and insanity then I could have never forgven her.

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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by eastofeden View Post
    That is the exact opposite for me. The only reason I was even able to forgive my mother was because when I asked her if she could have had an abortion (it wasn't legal or easy)...would she have? She said yes. Thank God...because if she intentionally brought children into her world of violence and insanity then I could have never forgven her.
    I have to say I agree with this.

    Abortion was not an option for my mom, either. But how much better a world this would be, if I had never been brought into it.

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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    I have to say I agree with this.

    Abortion was not an option for my mom, either. But how much better a world this would be, if I had never been brought into it.
    I am not so sure it would have been a better world without you...or me. I believe that life exists in our soul and no one can kill that except for ourselves.

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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    Can you think of a case when a person has wished he or she was never born? Even in dire straits?
    Yeah...my brother who put a gun in his mouth and blew his brains out. I promise he would not have thanked anyone who insisted he been born. We had a very violent upbringing.

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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    Doesn't medical science frown on justifying suicide?
    I don't know (or care) who frowns on justifying suicide. I know why my brother committed suicide. He couldn't get past his demons....and I know where his demons came from. So did he. Another brother of mine has spent 95% of his adult life in San Quenton and another is schizophrenic.

    My mother and father should have NEVER had children...and neither should alot of other people

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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    I agree completely.

    Abortion is a horrible, evil thing.

    But, we have yet, as a society, to find an alternative that is less horrific. It is a sad commentary on mankind.
    How is Abortion a horrible and evil thing. It terminates a non life so that an actual life can have a better life. Let me guess you are underneath the unscientific idea that a fetus/embryo/cluster of cells is an actual life which is not true.

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    I'd still like an answer to my questions.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Jack, can you please answer these questions directly? They are relevant to the credibility of your stance and if you truly wish a discussion and not another bark fest, you need to address them;

    1. Where do you stand on the death penalty?

    2. Where do you stand on extensive government funded programs that take care of unwanted children?

    3. Where do you stand on extensive government funded programs that take care of single mothers during pregnancy and after giving birth?

    4. Where do you stand on extensive government funded programs that provide free psychiatric, as well as medical care to rape victims going through pregnancy?

    I took the time to engage you in actual discourse instead of bashing. Supposedly, that's what you wanted from this topic. I expect you to take equal time to respond in kind. Thank you.
    You've taken the time to set a trap and then bash. I'm not walking into it.

    Thank you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post

    You've taken the time to set a trap and then bash. I'm not walking into it.

    Thank you.
    No, I didn't. That's not a trap, it's four perfectly legitimate questions the answer to which we have the right to know if you're gonna act all moral about abortion.

    It is YOUR choice to avoid real discussion, it's your paranoia. Don't lay it on me, you own your refusal to engage.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rexx View Post
    This is so true. America does not have a conservative party. We have Republicanism, which has little to do with conservatism. I believe our U.S. Democratic Party comes as close to an American conservative party as we have.

    There is nothing "conservative" about opposing civil rights or fostering racism. There is nothing "conservative" about hating gay people. There is nothing "conservative" about running up massive debts without paying the bills. There is nothing "conservative" about unrestricted military spending. There is nothing "conservative" about starting wars. There is nothing "conservative" about pseudo-science. There is nothing "conservative" about Christianity.




    I suppose most voters don't think about things that deeply.

    But, the party leaders are another story. Are they truly that illogical? Or, is it that they are so determined to advance the cause of a tiny minority that they do not care about the welfare of the nation?
    I think it's pretty clear they are, deep down, pragmatists who know what they have to say to appease their disparate political alliance of big business and the religious right. They say what they have to say. The number of Republicans who reverse their views on certain things after retiring or whatever else tells much, I think, about how much they really believe everything they have to adopt as political Republicans.

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    You seem to conclude that the very birth of children to certain people necessarily results in poor quality of life, and therefore abortion is justified based on profiling sets of circumstances. This fails logically for a few reasons. First, it's retrospective determinism. Just because something happened to someone does not mean it will happen to another. Second, it's a fallacy of composition when applied to families. Just because something is true of a part does not necessarily make it true of a whole. Third, it is oversimplification. Nobody can foresee when therapy will be able to rectify poor life quality in some people in some sets of similar circumstances to one in which a negative outcome has occurred, e.g. suicide. Fourth, it's an appeal to probability. Just because something can go wrong, does not mean it will. If all your siblings had been born again, their lot in life would not necessarily be the same.
    No one is saying every life without the promise of high quality upbringing is going to be bad. However even the children who are born can't be guaranteed proper care or good families-- even just looking at children up for adoption we can't do that. So a position that if every aborted pregnancy were carried to term we could guarantee or even reasonably presume a good life for a majority of the kids conceived in situations where the mother feels she cannot properly provide for a child is not reasonable.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    You've taken the time to set a trap and then bash. I'm not walking into it.

    Thank you.
    It's not a trap. It's a direct question as to why the conservative value placement on human life is so surgically selective. It doesn't apply to felons, unnecessary wars or to the quality of life for people born who may rely on social services for basic opportunity.

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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    You seem to conclude that the very birth of children to certain people necessarily results in poor quality of life, and therefore abortion is justified based on profiling sets of circumstances. This fails logically for a few reasons. First, it's retrospective determinism. Just because something happened to someone does not mean it will happen to another. Second, it's a fallacy of composition when applied to families. Just because something is true of a part does not necessarily make it true of a whole. Third, it is oversimplification. Nobody can foresee when therapy will be able to rectify poor life quality in some people in some sets of similar circumstances to one in which a negative outcome has occurred, e.g. suicide. Fourth, it's an appeal to probability. Just because something can go wrong, does not mean it will. If all your siblings had been born again, their lot in life would not necessarily be the same.
    It is not true that if you a brought into a hard or abusive home that you will turn out bad. However you are that much more likely to turn out wrong and have a bad life if you are brought into such conditions.

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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    Just as we have rules that protect innocent people from punishment, even if that means criminals go free from time to time.
    Yes innocent people should be protected. Not non thinking zygotes.

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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    Another three things:

    1) Alveda King does not speak for her uncle. Martin Luther King was a progressive, while she is conservative. King's now deceased widow, Coretta Scott King, often defended Martin's left-wing views from Alveda and other conservatives.

    2) Neither the left nor right wings are interested in genocide for any group.

    3) There is plenty of logical support on the pro-life side. You don't need this clumsy theory that suggests a connection where none exists.
    there is indeed - and i look forward to many of yours

    abortion is murder

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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by JockBoy87 View Post
    You seem to conclude that the very birth of children to certain people necessarily results in poor quality of life, and therefore abortion is justified based on profiling sets of circumstances.
    I absolutely conclude that being born to certain people results in a poor quality of life. Some people will be able to overcome those circumstances and some won't. But that isn't the issue for me. You asked for an example and I gave one. Some women are going to STILL bring babies into intolerable circumstances because they CHOSE to have their child and since I am not trying to tell these women that they cannot have a baby the rest of your argument is not really applicable for me. I don't think alot of people "should" have children but I am not suggesting we legislate that. I think it is each individual woman's choice what happens with her body. Period.

    Alot of people would like to make sodomy illegal...again....because it is "unnatural". They want to DEFINE "unnatural" for other people...just like alot of people want to DEFINE "life" for other people (Oddly enough..the same people in many cases)

    I personally define life...sans the spiritual reference...as the moment the fetus exits the womb and can breathe on their own but the thing is...my personal definition of life has no consequence for anyone else. Yours does.

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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    You've taken the time to set a trap and then bash. I'm not walking into it.

    Thank you.
    All of the questions he asked are relevant. Revealing...but not surprising...that you would interpret these questions as a trap.

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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by chance1 View Post
    there is indeed - and i look forward to many of yours

    abortion is murder
    Any non-religious defense of that statement?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by eastofeden View Post
    All of the questions he asked are relevant. Revealing...but not surprising...that you would interpret these questions as a trap.
    I don't even think he thinks that. It's just cowardice.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by chance1 View Post
    there is indeed - and i look forward to many of yours

    abortion is murder
    No abortion is not murder. How many times do I have to tell you anti scienceers. A fetus/embryo/cluster of cells is not nor has ever been a life. They have as much personhood/sentience/intelligence as a jar of paste. Personhood, sentient life and intelligence happen late in the womb. Developing life is a process. Magically when sperm meets egg a new person just dosen't immediately happen. It takes time and development and said actual life has the freedom to terminate a potential or non life for their own wellbeing. Further more any given animal has more sentience, intelligence and personhood then said pre life forms but I don't see you pro lifers running out to be vegetarians.

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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by Mariatenebre View Post
    No abortion is not murder. How many times do I have to tell you anti scienceers. A fetus/embryo/cluster of cells is not nor has ever been a life. They have as much personhood/sentience/intelligence as a jar of paste. Personhood, sentient life and intelligence happen late in the womb. Developing life is a process. Magically when sperm meets egg a new person just dosen't immediately happen. It takes time and development and said actual life has the freedom to terminate a potential or non life for their own wellbeing. Further more any given animal has more sentience, intelligence and personhood then said pre life forms but I don't see you pro lifers running out to be vegetarians.
    I think they know that because when I hear people say "I was so privileged to be there when you brought a life into this world"...they are saying it in the hospital room...not the bedroom. No one refers to the act of fucking as the beginning of life... except for very extreme religious types.

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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    To deny potential life is a morally repugnant thing. It goes against the supposed progressive grain to fight for the least among us, and clearly the unborn human(and that's accurate description, just at the earliest stage of life) is certainly among the least in our society.Even Bill Clinton presented his pro choice view as favoring an outcome where abortions were safe, legal and RARE. Who knows how many of our greatest thinkers and doers would never have been given the opportunity to grow, to live, to discover, to create had abortion rights been in place earlier in time. You can argue all the politics of who cares for the unborn after they are born and the often hypocrital conservatives who would leave them on their own. Howeve if there isn't serious moral trepidation about the consequences of so many abortions happening,I can't fathom why that wouldn't be very troublesome indeed.

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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by eastofeden View Post
    All of the questions he asked are relevant. Revealing...but not surprising...that you would interpret these questions as a trap.
    Why else would Rolyo sound nice in his question? It's never happened before.

    He's perfectly capable of starting another thread --- this thread is about abortion and how the movement has targeted a minority.

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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Any non-religious defense of that statement?

    - - - Updated - - -



    I don't even think he thinks that. It's just cowardice.
    Cowardice ... yeah right. Start your own thread. I'm not falling into your trap -- you've never been kind to me here or in PM's. I'm not stupid.

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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    You've taken the time to set a trap and then bash. I'm not walking into it.

    Thank you.
    Jack, the questions are only a trap if you have positions on these questions that are inconsistent with a "pro-life" view. I'm an atheist who was raised Catholic, so I have little patience with their stand on abortion. However, at least the Catholic Church has a consistent position with respect to its "pro-life" stands on issues. It also opposes the death penalty and strongly supports government programs that would help the poor and support families and children.

    The problem with anit-abortion conservatives is that their "pro-life" views are so hypocritical. They are pro-life until the moment of birth. Then the baby is on its own. Conservative don't really give a shit about it afterward, at least not enough to expend a few tax dollars on. If a new born starves, lacks medical care or faces a life of little educational opportunity and poverty, well, it shouldn't have been born to a poor mother.

    Anti-abortion conservatives fail to consider the consequences of their inconsistent "pro-life" views. Prior to legalized abortion, women with unwanted pregnancies got dangerous, illegal abortions and died in the thousands. Doctors who treated women butchered by unskilled abortionists were a major force in the efforts to legalize abortion.

    Prior to the New Deal and the institution of widespread social programs, infanticide was common. More common was widespread child abandonment. In New York City and other east coast cities, trainloads of orphaned and abandoned children were sent out west for "adoptions," although more likely than not they ended up as slaves and indentured servants on farms.

    This would be the consequence if conservatives had their way. Would this state of affairs be acceptable to you? Is this a "pro-life" future? Answering Rolyo's questions would at least give us some insight into your thinking, and may cause you to re-evaluate your views.

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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by palemale View Post
    Jack, the questions are only a trap if you have positions on these questions that are inconsistent with a "pro-life" view. I'm an atheist who was raised Catholic, so I have little patience with their stand on abortion. However, at least the Catholic Church has a consistent position with respect to its "pro-life" stands on issues. It also opposes the death penalty and strongly supports government programs that would help the poor and support families and children.

    The problem with anit-abortion conservatives is that their "pro-life" views are so hypocritical. They are pro-life until the moment of birth. Then the baby is on its own. Conservative don't really give a shit about it afterward, at least not enough to expend a few tax dollars on. If a new born starves, lacks medical care or faces a life of little educational opportunity and poverty, well, it shouldn't have been born to a poor mother.

    Anti-abortion conservatives fail to consider the consequences of their inconsistent "pro-life" views. Prior to legalized abortion, women with unwanted pregnancies got dangerous, illegal abortions and died in the thousands. Doctors who treated women butchered by unskilled abortionists were a major force in the efforts to legalize abortion.

    Prior to the New Deal and the institution of widespread social programs, infanticide was common. More common was widespread child abandonment. In New York City and other east coast cities, trainloads of orphaned and abandoned children were sent out west for "adoptions," although more likely than not they ended up as slaves and indentured servants on farms.

    This would be the consequence if conservatives had their way. Would this state of affairs be acceptable to you? Is this a "pro-life" future? Answering Rolyo's questions would at least give us some insight into your thinking, and may cause you to re-evaluate your views.
    This thread is about abortion -- not what Rolyo wants it to be about. He and you can start your own thread -- I may or may not comment in that new thread -- it's my choice.

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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Cowardice ... yeah right. Start your own thread. I'm not falling into your trap -- you've never been kind to me here or in PM's. I'm not stupid.
    Uh....

    By refusing to answer the questions....you walked right into the trap.

    But yeah...I think you are either being cowardly or cynical in not answering the four relevant questions asked of you in order to illuminate your own reasoning.

    But I still think this was just a trolling thread designed to throw shit on MLK day.

    As you note, it is your choice whether you engage in real conversation or not. In this case you are choosing not to.
    Last edited by rareboy; January 23rd, 2013 at 05:27 AM.

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    Re: MLK’s Dream and the Nightmare of Black Genocide

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Yup if the opposition came with a pronounced support of public education, public child healthcare, assistance to struggling single mothers or families in poverty, and an opposition to the death penalty, I could take it seriously.

    Since it never is from the right, I don't. It's something for them to act morally superior about while never actually doing a practical thing to help change and knowing that it's not going away.

    When every black child in America that needs adoption or foster care isn't on wait lists and is being gobbled up into wanting homes at the rate white or imported Chinese babies are, the people complaining will have more of a reasonable cause to complain. But we're largely talking about people who apparently want the kid to be born and then tell the parents "deal with it yourself."
    The GOP is all about the unborn fetuses, but once that kid gets popped out then it's "You're on your own buddy. Pull yourself up by your bootstraps and don't go sucking on the government teat....the banks and corporations don't like having competition!"

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