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  1. #51
    Is the King of JUB Beachguyj's Avatar
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    Re: Who Here Has Ever Dated Or Considered Dating An F2M Trans Man? How About Sex?

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post

    If you're a woman born with a penis, enjoy your penis, don't feel the need to cut it off just to match other women, or for any other reason. If you're a man born with a vagina, fuck someone with it. Your body doesn't need to define your gender whether it matches the gender you want or not.
    Better yet worry about yourself and not about what other people choose to do with their lives or bodies.
    Never cease to find it strange
    How at midnight things seem hopeless
    But by dawn they've changed

  2. #52
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: Who Here Has Ever Dated Or Considered Dating An F2M Trans Man? How About Sex?

    Quote Originally Posted by tombastep View Post
    As if it is that easy and that people are that accepting of these individuals.
    No, they aren't.

    But if someone told me I should have major surgery to have a better shot at a date? I'd tell them to go fuck themselves. My hope is that people who identify as transgender will give serious thought to that option.

    Let's put it this way, which i was getting at in my original post: I would not date a guy who thought I expected him to have a mastectomy in order to have a shot with me.
    Last edited by bankside; January 19th, 2013 at 10:47 PM.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  3. #53
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: Who Here Has Ever Dated Or Considered Dating An F2M Trans Man? How About Sex?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beachguyj View Post
    Better yet worry about yourself and not about what other people choose to do with their lives or bodies.
    LOL how is the view from that high horse? You seem pretty confident to share your opinion on this issue, so basically to be told "mind your own business" is a bit much.

    The question is about what would go through my mind to date someone and to be intimate with them mentally and physically. I'm answering it. It raises a whole bunch of questions about identity and it would be important to me to have the discussion in any relationship.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  4. #54
    Impish and Mercurial Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: Who Here Has Ever Dated Or Considered Dating An F2M Trans Man? How About Sex?

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    No, they aren't.

    But if someone told me I should have major surgery to have a better shot at a date? I'd tell them to go fuck themselves. My hope is that people who identify as transgender will give serious thought to that option.
    You don't seem to get how those people feel. It's not that somebody tells them something. They wake up feeling wrong. Feeling ugly, aberrant, not how they should be. Nobody is telling them anything, it's how they feel. They need to be the opposite of what they were born physically.

    It is unfathomable to me why you're trying to make this into some weird peer pressure thing.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  5. #55
    Impish and Mercurial Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: Who Here Has Ever Dated Or Considered Dating An F2M Trans Man? How About Sex?

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    In the history of human struggles for equality, and in the history of people's conceptions of personhood and all that, do you not see a very deep current of thought questioning the validity of gender roles as such? How is is possible for that to escape attention?
    Well, because transsexuality has nothing to do with gender ROLES, as I already said in my very first post here. They don't need to "play" the woman/man. They need to physically be one. It is gender awareness that has nothing to do with societal norms.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  6. #56
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: Who Here Has Ever Dated Or Considered Dating An F2M Trans Man? How About Sex?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    You don't seem to get how those people feel. It's not that somebody tells them something. They wake up feeling wrong. Feeling ugly, aberrant, not how they should be. Nobody is telling them anything, it's how they feel. They need to be the opposite of what they were born physically.

    It is unfathomable to me why you're trying to make this into some weird peer pressure thing.

    I don't mean literally an individual saying to me "you know I'd totally go out with you if you had breast implants and lost the penis."

    I mean the cumulative effects of systemic societal messages about gender that convince people they need to make their bodies conform to a certain shape in order to have permission to express themselves emotionally, socially, intellectually, artistically, parentally, romantically, in a way that feels authentic.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  7. #57
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: Who Here Has Ever Dated Or Considered Dating An F2M Trans Man? How About Sex?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Well, because transsexuality has nothing to do with gender ROLES, as I already said in my very first post here. They don't need to "play" the woman/man. They need to physically be one. It is gender awareness that has nothing to do with societal norms.
    I think you might be reducing the historical discussion to "occupations" or something. Like "homemaker" vs. "soldier" or "seamstress" vs. "industrialist." Is that what you mean by "ROLES?" Stereotypes of what men and women should do for a living?

    In my reading of social history, the idea was much much broader: to question what it means to be male or female in the first place, and whether the distinction was even relevant if it could even be defined.
    Last edited by bankside; January 19th, 2013 at 11:03 PM.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  8. #58
    Impish and Mercurial Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post

    I think you might be reducing the historical discussion to "occupations" or something. Like "homemaker" vs. "soldier" or "seamstress" vs. "industrialist." Is that what you mean by "ROLES?" Stereotypes of what men and women should do for a living?

    In my reading of social history, the idea was much much broader: to question what it means to be male or female in the first place, and whether the distinction was even relevant if it could even be defined.
    No, for the tenth time - what I mean is the burning need to have a female body with breasts, vagina and no dick. Or the opposite if you're a girl. You keep trying to make it about perception and societal norms and constructs, when it's a much more primal issue.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  9. #59
    thatgirl
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    Re: Who Here Has Ever Dated Or Considered Dating An F2M Trans Man? How About Sex?

    It could be a combination of various factors that lead to issues about one's gender identity. What leads to someone being transgender is still being studied.

    So, I get what bankside is trying to say-- it's possible that the decision to undergo treatment is borne out of a desire to conform to society's gender binary and the norms that come along with it. But, it is too simplistic an explanation, imo. Especially when you consider the pain and struggles that come with gender dysphoria and the findings in some of the more recent studies that suggest brain structure is the key to understanding this disconnect they feel...I don't know.

    At the end of the day, I think if people are given options and they still choose to go ahead with the surgery after therapy and a psychological examination...It's cruel to leave them in their mental anguish by denying them access to treatment if that's the route they choose to go. In the future, when we have a better understanding of trangender issues, maybe they will have different options, maybe transitioning won't be necessary or maybe it will be perfected so that it's less risky and invasive. In the meantime, we can't keep them hanging as we sit around theorizing about their situation and conducting scientific studies.

  10. #60
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: Who Here Has Ever Dated Or Considered Dating An F2M Trans Man? How About Sex?

    Quote Originally Posted by thatgirl View Post
    At the end of the day, I think if people are given options and they still choose to go ahead with the surgery after therapy and a psychological examination...It's cruel to leave them in their mental anguish by denying them access to treatment if that's the route they choose to go. In the future, when we have a better understanding of trangender issues, maybe they will have different options, maybe transitioning won't be necessary or maybe it will be perfected so that it's less risky and invasive. In the meantime, we can't keep them hanging as we sit around theorizing about their situation and conducting scientific studies.
    Absolutely agree with this; people can make their choices with the knowledge we have today and I can respect those choices in any person since most people in this world are not answerable to me.

    But I'm reacting to what I see from some posts in this thread, which is a false sense of satisfaction that we have this completely figured out and now we're all progressive and empowering and of course people should have surgery to make their bodies match their identities. There are just way too many questions for that to be the case, and when people struggle with gender identity issues, it is another cruelty to suggest we've already worked out all the answers.

    It is very difficult for a person with gender identity questions to have an opportunity to explore options other than "transition to the opposite gender." I can see a whole bunch of things wrong with that sentence, yet it accurately reflects what I have observed in the community of professionals who counsel people about gender identity.

    I am determined that we should create those opportunities. I think counselling for gender dysphoria is too "goal-oriented" (i.e. "How can we get you ready for surgery?") and subject to the same medical foibles that lead to overprescription in the name of expediency.

    So, keep people hanging around or deny them surgery that they have considered and determined to do, no of course not. But ask a few questions from a variety of points of view? Absolutely; it would be disrespectful not to.
    Last edited by bankside; January 20th, 2013 at 12:12 AM.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  11. #61
    TheSpectatingLoner
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    Re: Who Here Has Ever Dated Or Considered Dating An F2M Trans Man? How About Sex?

    Quote Originally Posted by CupidBoy View Post
    Disdain? Ummm, no. Nice try though.

    I'm very open minded and accepting of transgender people, it doesn't mean I want to date one because I'm a gay man who is attracted to gay men. Get over yourself.
    LMAO at get over myself.

    I get that you love men. Awesome. I do too. I just think you are deluding yourself when you say you can spot an f2m that well.

    Honestly, when it comes to trans folks, the voice is the easiest way to tell the difference. Anyone who thinks they can do it with photos are just being wishful thinkers.

  12. #62
    TheSpectatingLoner
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    Re: Who Here Has Ever Dated Or Considered Dating An F2M Trans Man? How About Sex?

    BTW, it's funny when folks say "I'm gay so....Nooooooo. No vagina anwyhWEEERR!!!!1111!"

    To some, being gay means being male attracted to male genitalia.

    To some, being gay means being a guy attracted to the male gender.

    Huge ((("epic"))) difference.

  13. #63
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: Who Here Has Ever Dated Or Considered Dating An F2M Trans Man? How About Sex?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSpectatingLoner View Post
    BTW, it's funny when folks say "I'm gay so....Nooooooo. No vagina anwyhWEEERR!!!!1111!"

    To some, being gay means being male attracted to male genitalia.

    To some, being gay means being a guy attracted to the male gender.

    Huge ((("epic"))) difference.
    Yes. It takes in a question that someone asked on the first page: what would you do if your gay manly male boyfriend lost his penis in an accident? I know I'd be with my guy still. This actually happened to a relative of an earlier generation in my family, and maybe that's where I started to get the idea that people should not define their identity by their anatomy. They should not lament it as a limitation, nor should they see it as an aspiration.

    But then again, it seems that,
    to some, being male means being one who possesses male body characteristics
    To some, being male means a certain state of mind.

    but I keep coming back to the question, does anyone really think there is the male gender?

    I thought by the year 2012 it was kind of obvious that there is no particular standard of behaviour or attitude or disposition or instinct that can lay claim to being the male gender. At best a cluster of male genders. Across a range so broad it overlaps with the rest of humanity.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  14. #64
    Is the King of JUB Beachguyj's Avatar
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    Re: Who Here Has Ever Dated Or Considered Dating An F2M Trans Man? How About Sex?



    Anyway most identify as straight men and like women.
    Never cease to find it strange
    How at midnight things seem hopeless
    But by dawn they've changed

  15. #65
    tombastep
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    Re: Who Here Has Ever Dated Or Considered Dating An F2M Trans Man? How About Sex?

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    Yes. It takes in a question that someone asked on the first page: what would you do if your gay manly male boyfriend lost his penis in an accident?
    Because there is a difference with an established relationship and deciding not to get into a relationship with a F2M in advance.

    I know I'd be with my guy still. This actually happened to a relative of an earlier generation in my family, and maybe that's where I started to get the idea that people should not define their identity by their anatomy. They should not lament it as a limitation, nor should they see it as an aspiration.
    No one is defining a man by his anatomy but that is one part of many on why I am attracted to men. Sex is a part of the relationship and I like penis so it matters to a certain extent. I am not going to sit here and pretend it is not, especially when I am at an age where I feel like I am at my sexual peak.

    And as I suspected the OP came back and made a swipe at the people who said no.

  16. #66
    TheSpectatingLoner
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    Re: Who Here Has Ever Dated Or Considered Dating An F2M Trans Man? How About Sex?

    Hey Cupid, I wasn't trying to attack you for what you like. It's awesome knowing what you like.

    I was just challenging the idea that you would know they were really women if you weren't told beforehand.

  17. #67

    Re: Who Here Has Ever Dated Or Considered Dating An F2M Trans Man? How About Sex?

    I've considered it a few times.
    Quote Originally Posted by Saybrooke View Post
    I was at the gym once, and this woman was on the elliptical next to me, making motorcycle noises.

  18. #68
    TheSpectatingLoner
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    Re: Who Here Has Ever Dated Or Considered Dating An F2M Trans Man? How About Sex?

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    but I keep coming back to the question, does anyone really think there is the male gender?

    I thought by the year 2012 it was kind of obvious that there is no particular standard of behaviour or attitude or disposition or instinct that can lay claim to being the male gender. At best a cluster of male genders. Across a range so broad it overlaps with the rest of humanity.
    It's not always behavioral. When I said male gender, I also meant someone who identifies as male despite not being born the part.

    Every f2m trans man I've met in my life (that I know of) had to tell me themselves that they were born female. I would've had no way of knowing. Everything outside of their genitalia identified them as a man.

  19. #69
    Respira MissAnne's Avatar
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    Re: Who Here Has Ever Dated Or Considered Dating An F2M Trans Man? How About Sex?

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post

    If you're a woman born with a penis, enjoy your penis, don't feel the need to cut it off just to match other women, or for any other reason. If you're a man born with a vagina, fuck someone with it. Your body doesn't need to define your gender whether it matches the gender you want or not.
    Thats easy for you to say. I assume that you were born in the correct body.
    " For all there is to feel, let it be felt"
    ― Emeli Sande

  20. #70
    TheSpectatingLoner
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    Re: Who Here Has Ever Dated Or Considered Dating An F2M Trans Man? How About Sex?

    ^Bingo.....

  21. #71
    PerScientiam AdJustitiam bankside's Avatar
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    Re: Who Here Has Ever Dated Or Considered Dating An F2M Trans Man? How About Sex?

    Quote Originally Posted by MissAnne View Post
    Thats easy for you to say. I assume that you were born in the correct body.
    Yes, that is definitely your assumption.
    Americans need to keep their guns so they can protect themselves from gun violence just like Nancy Lanza did. And like Chris Kyle did. And like Gabby Giffords did. And like Tom Clements did. And like Michael Piemonte. And Joseph Wilcox.

  22. #72
    I Run S.C. BFizzle's Avatar
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    Re: Who Here Has Ever Dated Or Considered Dating An F2M Trans Man? How About Sex?

    Girl, you betta gawn with that.

  23. #73
    JUB Addict The Fly's Avatar
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    Re: Who Here Has Ever Dated Or Considered Dating An F2M Trans Man? How About Sex?

    No I would not. Not one person in that group could pass for a man. No matter how masculine they look sitting there posing, as soon as they drop trou the physical illusion is gone. I'm not saying they aren't men. I know a M2F and she's a women in every way......except physically.
    When someone claims to be in the wrong gender body, I believe them, who would know better? But no matter what you do medically/surgically you will never have the other genders physical body. A F2M dose not have a penis, they have a vagina. It may be altered or modified but it's not a penis.

  24. #74
    JUB Addict EuroSoccer's Avatar
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    Re: Who Here Has Ever Dated Or Considered Dating An F2M Trans Man? How About Sex?

    No.
    Nothing against them, if they are happy good on them, but to me they are female in a fake man body.
    I don't even think they like men, because if they like men maybe they'd have more chances of romance as a woman..............me guess.
    But that's just a wild guess..........

  25. #75
    Dr Bit! :~D
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    Re: Who Here Has Ever Dated Or Considered Dating An F2M Trans Man? How About Sex?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beachguyj View Post
    [IMG]Anyway most identify as straight men and like women.
    Not true. There are a lot of gay transmen out there.
    Recently I heard a 'wise guy' story that I had a party at my home for twenty-five men. It's an interesting story, but I don't know twenty-five men I'd want to invite to a party. ~Joan Crawford

  26. #76
    thatgirl
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    Re: Who Here Has Ever Dated Or Considered Dating An F2M Trans Man? How About Sex?

    Quote Originally Posted by bankside View Post
    But I'm reacting to what I see from some posts in this thread, which is a false sense of satisfaction that we have this completely figured out and now we're all progressive and empowering and of course people should have surgery to make their bodies match their identities. There are just way too many questions for that to be the case, and when people struggle with gender identity issues, it is another cruelty to suggest we've already worked out all the answers.
    Honestly, whenever I see transgender issues being discussed I get the feeling that people think it's progressive and empowering because to be honest that's what most transgender people communicate to us: they feel they were born in the wrong body and, for many of them, hormone treatment and surgery is the solution to end their suffering. The people they consider to be their allies are the ones that respect this viewpoint.

    What exactly are we supposed to do then? We don't know what it feels like to deal with something like this and, unless scientific studies provide us with more concrete information on the topic so we can speak in absolute terms, we should empower them by valuing their stance above all others. If they say that they don't feel like they are an androgynous 'other gender' and they have no desire to embrace something that they feel is not natural for them, we can't force them to accept this viewpoint. That would be condescending, I feel.

    Anyway, bankside, I know you have annoyed some people in this thread (because your first comment did come across as very judgmental, tbh) but your other posts were interesting, imo. It shows that you are well-intentioned even though you may have a different outlook on the topic. What do you think of societies that recognize "third/other" genders? They are still expected to (and express that they want to) adapt to the male/female binary for the most part despite having their own identity. It seems that breaking out of the gender binary is easier said than done. In theory, it sounds nice but maybe it's not so practical.

  27. #77
    TheSpectatingLoner
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    Re: Who Here Has Ever Dated Or Considered Dating An F2M Trans Man? How About Sex?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beachguyj View Post
    Anyway most identify as straight men and like women.
    Most men are straight. Your point?

    While most trans men identify as straight men, there is a significant amount of trans folks who end up gay after their surgery. I've met a few in my time.

    Quote Originally Posted by EuroSoccer View Post
    No.
    Nothing against them, if they are happy good on them, but to me they are female in a fake man body.
    I don't even think they like men, because if they like men maybe they'd have more chances of romance as a woman..............me guess.
    But that's just a wild guess..........
    And an incorrect guess.

    Trans folk don't change gender for their chances of getting laid. They change gender for the fact that they feel as though they were born with the wrong body. Plenty of trans folk end up with same sex attraction after they have changed genders.

    It's possible to feel like a male and be attracted to men. If anything, gay men should understand this.
    Last edited by TheSpectatingLoner; January 21st, 2013 at 09:42 AM.

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