JustUsBoys.com gay porn forum

logo

remove these banner ads by becoming a JUB Supporter.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 50 of 72

Thread: Guns and Insurance

      
   
  1. #1
    soooooo collllldddd rareboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Partnered
    Posts
    31,027

    Code of Conduct

    Guns and Insurance

    Given the horrendous cost of gun accidents, purposeful injuries and murders every year...here's a thought for the NRA.

    Maybe it is time to make gun owners pay the whole tab. Even for the massacres. Every year, all gun owners should have to have to pay their share of the total costs incurred by all non-uniformed shooters....whether or not the gun was legally owned. And by whole tab, that includes all the police and medical and judicial costs and in the case of all the Sandyhook victims' families...all the damages for loss. Forget making all the taxpayers field the bill.

    This is how car insurance and personal liability insurance works. Having firearm insurance in place would be the same. And in the jurisdictions where there is low gun use and damages...people would also get a break on their rates....just like they do with auto insurance.

    There should be proportionally higher premiums depending on the type of firearm....assault weapons, for instance would have premiums that are much, much higher than a simple hunting rifle or handgun capable of firing off less than a few rounds.

    I have to think that if Americans love their guns enough to pay the price for having them...the vast majority of responsible gun owners would have no issue with this approach.


    What say you all?

  2. #2

    Re: Guns and Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    Given the horrendous cost of gun accidents, purposeful injuries and murders every year...here's a thought for the NRA.

    Maybe it is time to make gun owners pay the whole tab. Even for the massacres. Every year, all gun owners should have to have to pay their share of the total costs incurred by all non-uniformed shooters....whether or not the gun was legally owned. And by whole tab, that includes all the police and medical and judicial costs and in the case of all the Sandyhook victims' families...all the damages for loss. Forget making all the taxpayers field the bill.

    This is how car insurance and personal liability insurance works. Having firearm insurance in place would be the same. And in the jurisdictions where there is low gun use and damages...people would also get a break on their rates....just like they do with auto insurance.

    There should be proportionally higher premiums depending on the type of firearm....assault weapons, for instance would have premiums that are much, much higher than a simple hunting rifle or handgun capable of firing off less than a few rounds.

    I have to think that if Americans love their guns enough to pay the price for having them...the vast majority of responsible gun owners would have no issue with this approach.


    What say you all?
    I don't think criminals will buy the insurance. All the Democrats schemes are designed to take guns from the hands of law abiding citizens, while leaving guns in the hands of criminals, and, of course doing nothing to prevent the continuing influx over the border.

  3. #3
    Impish and Mercurial Rolyo85's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Boystown, Chicago
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Single
    Posts
    8,627

    Code of Conduct
    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post

    I don't think criminals will buy the insurance. All the Democrats schemes are designed to take guns from the hands of law abiding citizens, while leaving guns in the hands of criminals, and, of course doing nothing to prevent the continuing influx over the border.
    Well, law abiding citizens are ultimately responsible for many of the guns criminals own, so your argument is invalid.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  4. #4
    JUB Addict
    andysayshi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Sydney
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Available
    Posts
    4,272

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Guns and Insurance

    Standard gun advocate response: Gun ownership is a right. Any action which impedes that right, such as a financial penalty, is immoral. Charging insurance will prevent the poor from exercising their right to self defence.

    But personally I have no problem with the concept. The direct billable costs of treating gunshot wounds in hospitals is about $110 million per year, but the overall cost of gun violence in the US is estimated at around $100 billion per year.

    70-90% of people treated for gunshot wounds have no health insurance.

    Then there's the psychological costs of gun violence:

    Exposure to violence can cause intrusive thoughts and sleep disturbances, emotional withdrawal, and post-traumatic stress disorder.

    Children injured in gun violence, those who witness violent acts at close proximity, those exposed to high levels of violence in their communities or schools, and those exposed to violent media have a higher likelihood of problems.

    Rural youth exposed to gun violence report significantly more anger, dissociation, post-traumatic stress, and total trauma.

    Community violence, including gun violence, has the equivalent emotional impact on children as war or natural disaster.

    http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/costs

  5. #5
    JUB Addict
    andysayshi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Sydney
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Available
    Posts
    4,272

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Guns and Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    I don't think criminals will buy the insurance. All the Democrats schemes are designed to take guns from the hands of law abiding citizens, while leaving guns in the hands of criminals, and, of course doing nothing to prevent the continuing influx over the border.
    Between 300,000 - 500,000 legally acquired guns are stolen every year in the US. Perhaps insurance would also encourage gun owners to treat their gun storage and security more responsibly.

  6. #6
    Virtus in medio stat JUB Admin opinterph's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Jawja
    Status
    Partnered
    Posts
    20,560
    Blog Entries
    14

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Guns and Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    Ö all gun owners should have to have to pay their share of the total costs incurred by all non-uniformed shooters....whether or not the gun was legally owned. Ö

    This is how car insurance and personal liability insurance works.
    Federal law does not mandate that individual citizens procure automobile and/or personal liability insurance.

  7. #7
    Banned
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Partnered
    Posts
    3,171

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Guns and Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    What say you all?
    That is a totally absurd idea.

  8. #8
    JUB Addict
    andysayshi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Sydney
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Available
    Posts
    4,272

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Guns and Insurance

    Isn't it a part of the conservative ideal that people take personal and financial responsibility for their actions? Given that a gun, when used as designed, will cause damage and/or death, why is the notion of insurance absurd?

  9. #9
    Impish and Mercurial Rolyo85's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Boystown, Chicago
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Single
    Posts
    8,627

    Code of Conduct
    Quote Originally Posted by andysayshi View Post
    Isn't it a part of the conservative ideal that people take personal and financial responsibility for their actions? Given that a gun, when used as designed, will cause damage and/or death, why is the notion of insurance absurd?
    Because no republican today cares about the conservative ideal?
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  10. #10
    Virtus in medio stat JUB Admin opinterph's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Jawja
    Status
    Partnered
    Posts
    20,560
    Blog Entries
    14

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Guns and Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by andysayshi View Post
    Given that a gun, when used as designed, will cause damage and/or death, why is the notion of insurance absurd?
    Based on the opening post, I was under the impression that all gun owners would be required to procure the proposed insurance – not just those who subscribe to the conservative ideal.

    When a gun is used as designed, it seems there would be no liability against which to insure.

  11. #11
    Impish and Mercurial Rolyo85's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Boystown, Chicago
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Single
    Posts
    8,627

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Guns and Insurance

    I think his "conservatives should approve" comment was meant in the context of particular people here (predictably) being opposed to the idea.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  12. #12
    JUB Addict
    andysayshi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Sydney
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Available
    Posts
    4,272

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Guns and Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    Based on the opening post, I was under the impression that all gun owners would be required to procure the proposed insurance – not just those who subscribe to the conservative ideal.

    When a gun is used as designed, it seems there would be no liability against which to insure.
    Apologies, Opinterph, I'm not clear on what you're saying here. (It's very hot in Sydney today - mind frazzle!)

    My post was a rebuttal to Henry Reardon claiming that insurance for gun owners is absurd. But, as a conservative, he should surely applaud the notion that gun owners take financial precautions for the potential liability a gun may incur - in an accident, if the gun is stolen and used by criminal etc.

  13. #13
    What's next? chrisrobin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Single
    Posts
    7,819

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Guns and Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    I don't think criminals will buy the insurance.
    What if a potential victim buys uninsured shooter's insurance?

  14. #14
    Virtus in medio stat JUB Admin opinterph's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Jawja
    Status
    Partnered
    Posts
    20,560
    Blog Entries
    14

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Guns and Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by andysayshi View Post
    Apologies, Opinterph, I'm not clear on what you're saying here. (It's very hot in Sydney today - mind frazzle!)
    No apology necessary, though you didnít use the quote function.

    Iíve heard that itís rather warm in your part of the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by andysayshi View Post
    Ö the notion that gun owners take financial precautions for the potential liability a gun may incur - in an accident, if the gun is stolen and used by criminal etc.
    That is an obvious deficiency in my 2nd statement.

  15. #15
    cave canem Stardreamer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Over the Hedge and Under the Hill
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Bisexual
    Status
    Married
    Posts
    2,912

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Guns and Insurance

    I'm fairly sure most home owners policies cover accidental death and injury that would cover gun shot accidents but if not such policies are readily available.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

  16. #16

    Re: Guns and Insurance

    Why are you paying to arm the police if they are never to be called ?

  17. #17

    Re: Guns and Insurance

    what are the police for then ?

  18. #18
    Virtus in medio stat JUB Admin opinterph's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Jawja
    Status
    Partnered
    Posts
    20,560
    Blog Entries
    14

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Guns and Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by csb999 View Post
    Why are you paying to arm the police if they are never to be called ?
    How does that relate to the topic? No one in this thread has made the assertion that the police are never to be called.

  19. #19
    JUB Addict
    andysayshi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Sydney
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Available
    Posts
    4,272

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Guns and Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    No apology necessary, though you didn’t use the quote function.
    My bad! Many thanks for clarification.

  20. #20
    Seeking a free country
    Kulindahr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    on the foggy, damp, redneck Oregon coast
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Bisexual
    Status
    Single
    Posts
    96,581
    Blog Entries
    78

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Guns and Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    Given the horrendous cost of gun accidents, purposeful injuries and murders every year...here's a thought for the NRA.

    Maybe it is time to make gun owners pay the whole tab. Even for the massacres. Every year, all gun owners should have to have to pay their share of the total costs incurred by all non-uniformed shooters....whether or not the gun was legally owned. And by whole tab, that includes all the police and medical and judicial costs and in the case of all the Sandyhook victims' families...all the damages for loss. Forget making all the taxpayers field the bill.

    This is how car insurance and personal liability insurance works. Having firearm insurance in place would be the same. And in the jurisdictions where there is low gun use and damages...people would also get a break on their rates....just like they do with auto insurance.

    There should be proportionally higher premiums depending on the type of firearm....assault weapons, for instance would have premiums that are much, much higher than a simple hunting rifle or handgun capable of firing off less than a few rounds.

    I have to think that if Americans love their guns enough to pay the price for having them...the vast majority of responsible gun owners would have no issue with this approach.


    What say you all?
    Are you going to charge auto companies for all accidents? How about sports manufacturers for all sorts injuries?

    And maybe we should charge Congress personally for the deficit.....


    Beyond that, I'll say that your ignorance is showing: there is functionally no difference at all between "assault weapons" and many hunting rifles. All "assault weapon" means is "it looks scary!"

    And the problem is that the people who need to have such coverage aren't going to buy any.
    Last edited by Kulindahr; January 17th, 2013 at 08:26 PM.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  21. #21
    Seeking a free country
    Kulindahr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    on the foggy, damp, redneck Oregon coast
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Bisexual
    Status
    Single
    Posts
    96,581
    Blog Entries
    78

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Guns and Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by andysayshi View Post
    Isn't it a part of the conservative ideal that people take personal and financial responsibility for their actions? Given that a gun, when used as designed, will cause damage and/or death, why is the notion of insurance absurd?
    Because the whole idea behind it is to penalize the innocent for the actions of the guilty.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    When a gun is used as designed, it seems there would be no liability against which to insure.
    "Designed", or "intended"?

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  22. #22
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Posts
    9,390

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Guns and Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Because the whole idea behind it is to penalize the innocent for the actions of the guilty.

    - - - Updated - - -



    "Designed", or "intended"?
    Is that also your view on health insurance? Or on taxpayers collectively paying for local repairs to telephone poles or power lines or fire hydrants damaged by automobile accidents?

  23. #23
    Seeking a free country
    Kulindahr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    on the foggy, damp, redneck Oregon coast
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Bisexual
    Status
    Single
    Posts
    96,581
    Blog Entries
    78

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Guns and Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by andysayshi View Post
    Apologies, Opinterph, I'm not clear on what you're saying here. (It's very hot in Sydney today - mind frazzle!)

    My post was a rebuttal to Henry Reardon claiming that insurance for gun owners is absurd. But, as a conservative, he should surely applaud the notion that gun owners take financial precautions for the potential liability a gun may incur - in an accident, if the gun is stolen and used by criminal etc.
    Then you should be applauding the NRA -- they started offering insurance coverage for accidents and liabilities due to firearms quite some time ago.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  24. #24
    of the 99%
    Just_Believe18's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Single
    Posts
    9,152

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Guns and Insurance

    We just barely won mandating all Americans have health insurance with the skin of our teeth in the Supreme Court. There's no way even if Congress would pass this, that a federal law mandating gun owners insurance would survive the courts. If ignorant Americans went ballistic over being able to afford health care to keep their families alive and well, I can only imagine how stupid they'll react over personal responsibility. I think it's a great state law, but the Southern states will never pass one.
    #439th oldest member on JUB.

  25. #25
    cave canem Stardreamer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Over the Hedge and Under the Hill
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Bisexual
    Status
    Married
    Posts
    2,912

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Guns and Insurance

    Insurance is really the wrong word here, we are really talking about a tax on all legal gun owners and manufactures. And that is NOT how auto insurance works by the way.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

  26. #26
    of the 99%
    Just_Believe18's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Single
    Posts
    9,152

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Guns and Insurance

    ^ It's not a tax that goes into general spending. It's an insurance policy that covers liability to the many thousands of deaths that happen every year as a result of gun accidents and murders. It's a daunting challenge, but it makes absolute sense. People should be held civilly liable to injuries or wrongful death to the guns they use. We do this for car accidents, why not guns?
    #439th oldest member on JUB.

  27. #27
    Rambunctiously Pugnacious JayHawk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    River Quay - KC
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Single
    Posts
    24,081

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Guns and Insurance

    Enforcing financially responsible behavior....
    Everyone can be great, because everyone can serve.
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


  28. #28
    JUB Addict
    andysayshi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Sydney
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Available
    Posts
    4,272

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Guns and Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Then you should be applauding the NRA -- they started offering insurance coverage for accidents and liabilities due to firearms quite some time ago.
    The NRA's maximum payment of $2500 wouldn't even pay for an emergency room visit if you dropped your gun and broke your big toe.

  29. #29
    cave canem Stardreamer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Over the Hedge and Under the Hill
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Bisexual
    Status
    Married
    Posts
    2,912

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Guns and Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by Just_Believe18 View Post
    ^ It's not a tax that goes into general spending. It's an insurance policy that covers liability to the many thousands of deaths that happen every year as a result of gun accidents and murders. It's a daunting challenge, but it makes absolute sense. People should be held civilly liable to injuries or wrongful death to the guns they use. We do this for car accidents, why not guns?
    The supreme court called that a tax, in fact they said the only legal way to pass such a law is as a tax.

    I don't think you can legitimately call a program that takes money from one group to provide coverage to another insurance in the traditional sense it is used. Mandatory auto insurance policies only apply to the auto owner and/or injuries caused specifically by his vehicle.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

  30. #30
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Posts
    9,390

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Guns and Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    The supreme court called that a tax, in fact they said the only legal way to pass such a law is as a tax.

    I don't think you can legitimately call a program that takes money from one group to provide coverage to another insurance in the traditional sense it is used. Mandatory auto insurance policies only apply to the auto owner and/or injuries caused specifically by his vehicle.
    Even if you call it a tax it's done for cigarettes, alcohol and other things that result in damage and death which may ultimately fall upon government or taxpayer resources to pay for.

  31. #31
    JUB Addict
    andysayshi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Sydney
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Available
    Posts
    4,272

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Guns and Insurance

    I have no qualms taxing gun owners. We tax tobacco, alcohol, drivers, gasoline. 30,000 deaths per year, with a national cost of $100 billion, makes gun deaths a major health issue for US citizens, on par with motor vehicle accidents or smoking deaths. Somebody needs to pay the bills.

  32. #32
    cave canem Stardreamer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Over the Hedge and Under the Hill
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Bisexual
    Status
    Married
    Posts
    2,912

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Guns and Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Even if you call it a tax it's done for cigarettes, alcohol and other things that result in damage and death which may ultimately fall upon government or taxpayer resources to pay for.
    I don't see a problem with a reasonable tax but being an enumerated right, you couldn't apply punitive tax rates like is done with some sin taxes.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

  33. #33
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Posts
    9,390

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Guns and Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    I don't see a problem with a reasonable tax but being an enumerated right, you couldn't apply punitive tax rates like is done with some sin taxes.
    I don't agree with that reasoning. On the same logic we could say gun manufacturing should be subsidized to the point where firearms are affordable for everyone.

  34. #34
    Porn Star
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Single
    Posts
    370

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Guns and Insurance

    Can you give a why, Stardreamer?

    It could also be a type of sin tax...

    Denmark has a like 180% sales tax on new vehicles to discourage buying them. They're more dangerous than their mass transport system, which their government would prefer the people using. It doesn't have to be near that high, but something's gotta give. In my reasoning, money is the perfect way to guide behavior; employers do it just by paying you at the end of the week.
    Last edited by mightbe; January 17th, 2013 at 09:19 PM.

  35. #35
    cave canem Stardreamer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Over the Hedge and Under the Hill
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Bisexual
    Status
    Married
    Posts
    2,912

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Guns and Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    I don't agree with that reasoning. On the same logic we could say gun manufacturing should be subsidized to the point where firearms are affordable for everyone.
    You are misunderstanding the application of natural rights. The government is obligated not to restrict a right without reason, there is no requirement for the government to provide the means to exercise the right. You have the right to free speech, that does not mean government has to subsidize you purchasing a newspaper.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

  36. #36
    cave canem Stardreamer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Over the Hedge and Under the Hill
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Bisexual
    Status
    Married
    Posts
    2,912

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Guns and Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by mightbe View Post
    Can you give a why, Stardreamer?

    It could also be a type of sin tax...

    Denmark has a like 180% sales tax on new vehicles to discourage buying them. They're more dangerous than their mass transport system, which their government would prefer the people using. It doesn't have to be near that high, but something's gotta give. In my reasoning, money is the perfect way to guide behavior; employers do it just by paying you at the end of the week.
    Exactly so but because the right to keep and bear arms for self defense is an enumerated right in our constitution, such a punitive tax rate for the purpose of hindering the exercise of the right would be struck down by the courts. All you would succeed in doing by trying to implement it is possibly getting a ruling that would prevent any taxes being levied. Currently you can apply a reasonable tax rate as long as the purpose of it is not to intentionally discourage the exercise of the right.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

  37. #37
    soooooo collllldddd rareboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Partnered
    Posts
    31,027

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Guns and Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    Federal law does not mandate that individual citizens procure automobile and/or personal liability insurance.
    But I assume that state law does.

    And that they all fall into line.

    And, in fact, the idea behind automobile insurance...all the way to pooled insurance reserves...is that auto insurance is intended to cover all the liabilities and damages arising from accidents, even those caused by drunk drivers.

    So no. I'm not talking about a tax...I'm talking about making the people who want to own and operate firearms directly financially responsible for the impact of firearms.

    And I guarantee Kuli, that my dad's old twin barrel hunting rifle is a far, far cry from the semi-automatic weapons with 100 round cartridges that I and the vast majority of people consider to be military grade assault weapons.

  38. #38
    cave canem Stardreamer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Over the Hedge and Under the Hill
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Bisexual
    Status
    Married
    Posts
    2,912

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Guns and Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    But I assume that state law does.

    And that they all fall into line.

    And, in fact, the idea behind automobile insurance...all the way to pooled insurance reserves...is that auto insurance is intended to cover all the liabilities and damages arising from accidents, even those caused by drunk drivers.

    So no. I'm not talking about a tax...I'm talking about making the people who want to own and operate firearms directly financially responsible for the impact of firearms.

    And I guarantee Kuli, that my dad's old twin barrel hunting rifle is a far, far cry from the semi-automatic weapons with 100 round cartridges that I and the vast majority of people consider to be military grade assault weapons.
    Except auto insurance and the insurance mandates don't work that way. The state can mandate you having a minimum level of insurance in order to obtain the license necessary to operate a vehicle on a state maintained road. It is a condition of access not a condition of owning the car. If you never take your car off private property you cannot be forced to buy insurance. At least that was the way it worked up until the court ruling on the ACA. With the ACA ruling you can impose a tax that can be waived if you have obtained insurance.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

  39. #39

    Re: Guns and Insurance

    You cannot tax the right to bear arms, since it is a right. You cannot tax the right to vote, or free speech or religion. If you think that is ok how about if we tax the alleged right to abortion?
    All these schemes miss the point that good people will pay the taxes, criminals will not. We should not facilitate crime and penalize self defense.

    - - - Updated - - -

    You cannot tax the right to bear arms, since it is a right. You cannot tax the right to vote, or free speech or religion. If you think that is ok how about if we tax the alleged right to abortion?
    All these schemes miss the point that good people will pay the taxes, criminals will not. We should not facilitate crime and penalize self defense.

  40. #40
    cave canem Stardreamer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Over the Hedge and Under the Hill
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Bisexual
    Status
    Married
    Posts
    2,912

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Guns and Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    You cannot tax the right to bear arms, since it is a right. You cannot tax the right to vote, or free speech or religion. If you think that is ok how about if we tax the alleged right to abortion?
    All these schemes miss the point that good people will pay the taxes, criminals will not. We should not facilitate crime and penalize self defense.

    - - - Updated - - -

    You cannot tax the right to bear arms, since it is a right. You cannot tax the right to vote, or free speech or religion. If you think that is ok how about if we tax the alleged right to abortion?
    All these schemes miss the point that good people will pay the taxes, criminals will not. We should not facilitate crime and penalize self defense.
    You cannot tax the right itself or its exercise you are correct. Whether an ACA type tax can be applied to owning a gun would depend on how it presented to the courts I think. You might only be able to apply it to the carrying the gun outside your home for instance by making it part of the concealed carry fees. You certainly couldn't apply a punitive tax like is done with most sin taxes with the intent to prevent or discourage the exercise of the right so any tax has to be presented as relevant to the exercise of the right not to prevent it.

    To use your other examples, you cannot tax someone for praying but you can assess property taxes and civil service fees on a church building as long as those taxes are consistent and have a valid function.

    As far as I know abortion is taxed just like any other medical service.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

  41. #41
    soooooo collllldddd rareboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Partnered
    Posts
    31,027

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Guns and Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    You cannot tax the right to bear arms, since it is a right. You cannot tax the right to vote, or free speech or religion. If you think that is ok how about if we tax the alleged right to abortion?
    All these schemes miss the point that good people will pay the taxes, criminals will not. We should not facilitate crime and penalize self defense.
    And what some people are apparently too thick to understand is that 'good people' already get taxed and taxed heavily to support the entire industry associated with crime, the criminal justice system and incarceration. The 'good people' already are being taxed to provide all the clean-up related to spree killings.

    ....and of course, yes...we do tax religion and we do tax abortion.

    So your argument is jejune.

    But I am talking about insurance. If states can mandate car insurance then the states can mandate gun insurance.

  42. #42

    Re: Guns and Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    Federal law does not mandate that individual citizens procure automobile and/or personal liability insurance.
    State law does. If you have a car you have to buy insurance for it. In my state if you're pulled over they ask for your license and proof of insurance. If you don't have your insurance card with you you're fined.

    Since gun violence costs billions of dollars, it's not a bad idea to make those who contribute to the carnage to pay for it.

  43. #43
    cave canem Stardreamer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Over the Hedge and Under the Hill
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Bisexual
    Status
    Married
    Posts
    2,912

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Guns and Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyBob View Post
    State law does. If you have a car you have to buy insurance for it. In my state if you're pulled over they ask for your license and proof of insurance. If you don't have your insurance card with you you're fined.

    Since gun violence costs billions of dollars, it's not a bad idea to make those who contribute to the carnage to pay for it.
    You have to have insurance as a condition of obtaining a driver's license in order to drive on a public roadway. The state owns the roads so you have to obtain a license to use them. Obtaining insurance is a condition for obtaining the license. If you own a car and you never drive on a public road but just private property the state CANNOT force you to buy insurance. Owning a car is also NOT an enumerated right which puts greater limits on what can be done that might hinder its exercise.

    The state does not force you to have insurance for owning a car, it forces you have insurance to have a driver's license.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

  44. #44
    cave canem Stardreamer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Over the Hedge and Under the Hill
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Bisexual
    Status
    Married
    Posts
    2,912

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Guns and Insurance

    Another thought on using an ACA type tax to apply this requirement, I don't think you could limit it to just gun owners, you would have to apply it to everybody or it would be subject to court challenge.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

  45. #45
    JUB Addict vulgar_newcomer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    St. Petersburg
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Single
    Posts
    2,584

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Guns and Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Well, law abiding citizens are ultimately responsible for many of the guns criminals own, so your argument is invalid.
    The same could be said of vehicles, and his argument is certainly valid.

  46. #46
    Impish and Mercurial Rolyo85's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Boystown, Chicago
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Status
    Single
    Posts
    8,627

    Code of Conduct
    Quote Originally Posted by vulgar_newcomer View Post

    The same could be said of vehicles, and his argument is certainly valid.
    Um, most criminals who have cars didn't steal them (car thieves resell), so no, the same can't be said for vehicles...
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  47. #47
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Posts
    9,390

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Guns and Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    And what some people are apparently too thick to understand is that 'good people' already get taxed and taxed heavily to support the entire industry associated with crime, the criminal justice system and incarceration. The 'good people' already are being taxed to provide all the clean-up related to spree killings.

    ....and of course, yes...we do tax religion and we do tax abortion.

    So your argument is jejune.

    But I am talking about insurance. If states can mandate car insurance then the states can mandate gun insurance.
    That's really the core of it. It's the same thing with health insurance.

    You are already taxed for it. Whether you know it or not.

    You can kick, scream, take a tantrum and dig your heels in all you like, but ultimately, these costs go somewhere, and if private or built-in costs or taxes or insurance are not covering any of them because people like Benvolio ensured that they aren't, they fall on the taxpayer.

  48. #48
    Virtus in medio stat JUB Admin opinterph's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Jawja
    Status
    Partnered
    Posts
    20,560
    Blog Entries
    14

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Guns and Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    "Designed", or "intended"?
    It seems reasonable to assume that the design of an item is a manifestation of the intention for which it is produced.

  49. #49

    Re: Guns and Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    That's really the core of it. It's the same thing with health insurance.

    You are already taxed for it. Whether you know it or not.

    You can kick, scream, take a tantrum and dig your heels in all you like, but ultimately, these costs go somewhere, and if private or built-in costs or taxes or insurance are not covering any of them because people like Benvolio ensured that they aren't, they fall on the taxpayer.
    Irrelevant. It remains true that a Federal tax on the ownership or bearing of firearms is a "prohibited infringment". And, yes, the Constitution prohibits a tax in the "free" exercise of religion, or the right to vote, or free speech.

  50. #50
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Gender
    Male
    Orientation
    Gay
    Posts
    9,390

    Code of Conduct

    Re: Guns and Insurance

    Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio View Post
    Irrelevant. It remains true that a Federal tax on the ownership or bearing of firearms is a "prohibited infringment". And, yes, the Constitution prohibits a tax in the "free" exercise of religion, or the right to vote, or free speech.
    It's not irrelevant because you're saying you can't tax something you're already taxed for.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Terms of Service | Privacy Policy | About JustUsBoys.com | Site Map | RSS | Webmasters | Advertise | Link to JUB | Report A Bug on this Page

Visit our sister sites: Broke Straight Boys | CollegeDudes.com | CollegeBoyPhysicals.com | RocketTube
All models appearing on JustUsBoys.com were over 18 at the time of photography. The records for sexually explicit images required by U.S. 2257 are kept by the
individual producers of the images. The location of the records is available by clicking the Custodian of Records link at the bottom of each gallery page.
© 2012 JustUsBoys.com. The JustUsBoys.com name and logo are registered trademarks. Labeled with ICRA and RTA. Member of ASACP and The Free Speech Coalition.