Not Born This Way

[Rolyo85]

Because we can never be 100% sure that "straight" twins of homosexuals in the studies are telling the truth about their own sexuality.

Do the discordant twins in these studies prove an environmental factor for being gay, or do they simply prove an environmental factor for being openly gay?

It takes one twin couple that we're certain is telling the truth. Just one. And there have been many. I even remember a cover story inInstinct a year or two ago.

Anyway, I already explained why twins aren't actually solid proof of anything, some time ago. Around the end of the temper tantrum purse fight.

[xbuzzerx]

Because we can never be 100% sure that "straight" twins of homosexuals in the studies are telling the truth about their own sexuality.

Do the discordant twins in these studies prove an environmental factor for being gay, or do they simply prove an environmental factor for being openly gay?

On this reasoning you can never be sure any homosexual, anywhere, is ever telling the truth about their sexuality-- or any straight person. In which case there is no point in any study or any research.

[MVincent]

It takes one twin couple that we're certain is telling the truth.

But that's my point. No, we will never be 100% certain that the one twin couple - or many - or those in your Instinct story - are telling the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Until science develops an infallible lie detector, the closet can never be ruled out.

[MVincent]

On this reasoning you can never be sure any homosexual, anywhere, is ever telling the truth about their sexuality-- or any straight person. In which case there is no point in any study or any research.

So, the only way to study homosexuality is to assume that everyone, everywhere, is always telling the truth about their sexuality?

[Nishin]

Usually the lying is taken into account in studies though ...

[xbuzzerx]

So, the only way to study homosexuality is to assume that everyone, everywhere, is always telling the truth about their sexuality?

You're the one claiming we have to disregard results where a sibling or twin claims a different sexuality because "they could be lying." What is your proposed control system or methodology for that?

[MVincent]

You're the one claiming we have to disregard results where a sibling or twin claims a different sexuality because "they could be lying." What is your proposed control system or methodology for that?

I claimed no such thing, and I propose nothing.

I simply stated one of the reasons why you can't prove with 100% certainty that environment plays a role in determining homosexuality, by using identical twins with discordantly professed sexualities. It may just be evidence of the environmental factors determining honesty, or security, or shame.

The 1991 Bailey/Pallard study may have concluded that only 52% of monozygotic twins were both homosexual... or it may simply be evidence that around 24% of gay people tend to be closeted.

[Rolyo85]

Well, in the cases of twins living together, they share their life pretty much entirely. If one has no trouble being out, the other has no reason to hide either, and if they specifically choose to participate in a study - which, you may have heard, is not a mandatory thing - one should assume they aren't lying. What's the point? If you aren't comfortable with it, just don't participate.

This is just a silly argument.

[xbuzzerx]

I claimed no such thing, and I propose nothing.

I simply stated one of the reasons why you can't prove with 100% certainty that environment plays a role in determining homosexuality, by using identical twins with discordantly professed sexualities. It may just be evidence of the environmental factors determining honesty, or security, or shame.

The 1991 Bailey/Pallard study may have concluded that only 52% of monozygotic twins were both homosexual... or it may simply be evidence that around 24% of gay people tend to be closeted.

To me it's a very large stretch to assume that somewhere in the vicinity of 40-50% of all identical twins who have a gay twin could also themselves be gay but are in the closet about it, and that this percentage would show up in most of the studies they've done.

[loveguys72]

Why ask why tho?

[Laufey]

To me it's a very large stretch to assume that somewhere in the vicinity of 40-50% of all identical twins who have a gay twin could also themselves be gay but are in the closet about it, and that this percentage would show up in most of the studies they've done.

Agreed. It's a far stretch.

[Hard-up1]

I simply stated one of the reasons why you can't prove with 100% certainty . . .

In human behavioral studies, very little can be proven with 100% certainty. That's the nature of the complexity of human behavior. Scientists would be very unlikely to state it in those terms, and even less likely to expect a study to have such a conclusion.

The preponderance of evidence suggests. That is the nature of human behavioral studies. Indications are. . .

The expectation of there to be conclusiveness that is bulletproof is alien to sociology.