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  1. #151
    Impish and Mercurial Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MVincent View Post

    Because we can never be 100% sure that "straight" twins of homosexuals in the studies are telling the truth about their own sexuality.

    Do the discordant twins in these studies prove an environmental factor for being gay, or do they simply prove an environmental factor for being openly gay?
    It takes one twin couple that we're certain is telling the truth. Just one. And there have been many. I even remember a cover story inInstinct a year or two ago.

    Anyway, I already explained why twins aren't actually solid proof of anything, some time ago. Around the end of the temper tantrum purse fight.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  2. #152
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by MVincent View Post
    Because we can never be 100% sure that "straight" twins of homosexuals in the studies are telling the truth about their own sexuality.

    Do the discordant twins in these studies prove an environmental factor for being gay, or do they simply prove an environmental factor for being openly gay?
    On this reasoning you can never be sure any homosexual, anywhere, is ever telling the truth about their sexuality-- or any straight person. In which case there is no point in any study or any research.

  3. #153

    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    It takes one twin couple that we're certain is telling the truth.
    But that's my point. No, we will never be 100% certain that the one twin couple - or many - or those in your Instinct story - are telling the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Until science develops an infallible lie detector, the closet can never be ruled out.

  4. #154

    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    On this reasoning you can never be sure any homosexual, anywhere, is ever telling the truth about their sexuality-- or any straight person. In which case there is no point in any study or any research.
    So, the only way to study homosexuality is to assume that everyone, everywhere, is always telling the truth about their sexuality?

  5. #155
    Quality posting since 2K7 Nishin's Avatar
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Usually the lying is taken into account in studies though ...

  6. #156
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by MVincent View Post
    So, the only way to study homosexuality is to assume that everyone, everywhere, is always telling the truth about their sexuality?
    You're the one claiming we have to disregard results where a sibling or twin claims a different sexuality because "they could be lying." What is your proposed control system or methodology for that?

  7. #157

    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    You're the one claiming we have to disregard results where a sibling or twin claims a different sexuality because "they could be lying." What is your proposed control system or methodology for that?
    I claimed no such thing, and I propose nothing.

    I simply stated one of the reasons why you can't prove with 100% certainty that environment plays a role in determining homosexuality, by using identical twins with discordantly professed sexualities. It may just be evidence of the environmental factors determining honesty, or security, or shame.

    The 1991 Bailey/Pallard study may have concluded that only 52% of monozygotic twins were both homosexual... or it may simply be evidence that around 24% of gay people tend to be closeted.
    Last edited by MVincent; January 20th, 2013 at 05:02 AM.

  8. #158
    Impish and Mercurial Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Well, in the cases of twins living together, they share their life pretty much entirely. If one has no trouble being out, the other has no reason to hide either, and if they specifically choose to participate in a study - which, you may have heard, is not a mandatory thing - one should assume they aren't lying. What's the point? If you aren't comfortable with it, just don't participate.

    This is just a silly argument.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  9. #159
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by MVincent View Post
    I claimed no such thing, and I propose nothing.

    I simply stated one of the reasons why you can't prove with 100% certainty that environment plays a role in determining homosexuality, by using identical twins with discordantly professed sexualities. It may just be evidence of the environmental factors determining honesty, or security, or shame.

    The 1991 Bailey/Pallard study may have concluded that only 52% of monozygotic twins were both homosexual... or it may simply be evidence that around 24% of gay people tend to be closeted.
    To me it's a very large stretch to assume that somewhere in the vicinity of 40-50% of all identical twins who have a gay twin could also themselves be gay but are in the closet about it, and that this percentage would show up in most of the studies they've done.

  10. #160
    JUB Addict loveguys72's Avatar
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Why ask why tho?

  11. #161
    The Mother of Loki Laufey's Avatar
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    To me it's a very large stretch to assume that somewhere in the vicinity of 40-50% of all identical twins who have a gay twin could also themselves be gay but are in the closet about it, and that this percentage would show up in most of the studies they've done.
    Agreed. It's a far stretch.

  12. #162
    Hard-up1
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by MVincent View Post
    I simply stated one of the reasons why you can't prove with 100% certainty . . .
    In human behavioral studies, very little can be proven with 100% certainty. That's the nature of the complexity of human behavior. Scientists would be very unlikely to state it in those terms, and even less likely to expect a study to have such a conclusion.

    The preponderance of evidence suggests. That is the nature of human behavioral studies. Indications are. . .

    The expectation of there to be conclusiveness that is bulletproof is alien to sociology.

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