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  1. #101
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by youfiad View Post
    I'm not saying that your education was worthless, but when I say that I have more scientific education than you, that's something that I can readily prove. How many college credits have you taken? What sort of scientific research projects have you participated in?
    Insulting someones education or background shows insecurity. And that's exactly what happened here.

    What do I need to prove about my education? I finished undergrad and grad school quite some time ago. What does college credits have to do with this argument? I'm sorry to say but you ought to take a step back from that. Stop trying to make this personal.

  2. #102
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    What do you want links for? That identical twins are genetically identical? That's a well known fact, it's not anything requiring links. Common knowledge. You can read the article in Wikipedia and see it with your own eyes.

    So why aren't twins proof, Giancarlo? You keep demanding prof without it being clear what you're asking proof of, yet you dodge that one simple answer. Afraid you can't?
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  3. #103
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    What do you want links for? That identical twins are genetically identical? That's a well known fact, it's not anything requiring links. Common knowledge. You can read the article in Wikipedia and see it with your own eyes.

    So why aren't twins proof, Giancarlo? You keep demanding prof without it being clear what you're asking proof of, yet you dodge that one simple answer. Afraid you can't?
    Again that's just simply skirting the question. Thanks for proving my point. And wikipedia is not a source. And telling someone "go google it"... or that "it's common knowledge"... is quite insulting.

    No wonder some fail in political debates. I guess I'll have to use that ignore list. Ciao.

  4. #104
    Sex God youfiad's Avatar
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Insulting someones education or background shows insecurity. And that's exactly what happened here.

    What do I need to prove about my education? I finished undergrad and grad school quite some time ago. What does college credits have to do with this argument? I'm sorry to say but you ought to take a step back from that. Stop trying to make this personal.


    What it has to prove is that your silly assumption about a science student/research student not knowing the scientific process is annoyingly ignorant.

    I'd love to continue this fun debate, but I have to go shove my penis in a meat grinder.

  5. #105
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    And you're not making any sense either. I have asked for links for your argument and I have yet to see any. I asked for the proof before and I haven't seen it. Your words are not proof.
    Giancarlo let me just try to calmly tell you where I think the other two are coming from.

    People are made up from their genetics, their environment/nurture, and from things that interplayed off the two.

    By deduction, if we establish that something isn't 100% genetically causal, like for example identical twins not sharing the same sexuality... then just by simple reasoning, some PORTION of what established their sexuality must be one of the other two factors besides just genetics.

    At least, I believe that's what has been hotly argued and misunderstood over the last page of this thread.

    That's why people are asking why you're demanding links. We can't prove what environmental factors influence sexuality--- we're merely deducing that they must play some role, since we eliminate that genetics isn't producing a 1:1 causality of genes to sexuality.

  6. #106
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by youfiad View Post
    What it has to prove is that your silly assumption about a science student/research student not knowing the scientific process is annoyingly ignorant.

    I'd love to continue this fun debate, but I have to go shove my penis in a meat grinder.
    There was no silly assumption made.

    Have fun with that. I'm sure it'll just be one or two seconds at most.

  7. #107
    Sex God youfiad's Avatar
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    ^^ I said those exact words pretty much several times ^^

  8. #108
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Again that's just simply skirting the question. Thanks for proving my point. And wikipedia is not a source. And telling someone "go google it"... or that "it's common knowledge"... is quite insulting.

    No wonder some fail in political debates. I guess I'll have to use that ignore list. Ciao.
    Sugar, you don't have the authority to eject me from a conversation. The loudest barking dog isn't the best argument winner, it's just the one that people stop paying attention to, which is what usually happens to you in CE&P, if we're gonna be talking about who loses what in politics.

    You have no point to prove at the moment, other than some vague outrage over a vague subject that you're dodging to even identify. Yelling for proof is not equal to winning an argument. I repeat my two questions. In order to progress in this so called argument, you need to respond to them first, so that people know what you're even barking about:

    1. What links are you asking for. What should those links prove? In order for anyone to provide them, we need to know what you are asking for.

    2. Why are identical twins not a proof that genetics isn't the only factor defining sexuality?


    Showing proof falls equally on both sides of an argument. You can't only ask for it without providing it yourself. Answer me those two questions and I'll pile links upon you like gold upon a dragonslayer.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  9. #109
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Oh, and btw, insulting or not, the fact that identical twins are genetically identical IS common knowledge. Not really my issue here if you don't know it.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  10. #110
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Showing proof falls equally on both sides of an argument. You can't only ask for it without providing it yourself. Answer me those two questions and I'll pile links upon you like gold upon a dragonslayer.
    Nope. I have nothing else to say here. My point has been proven. Have a nice day.

  11. #111
    Hard-up1
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Nope. I have nothing else to say here. My point has been proven. Have a nice day.
    Sounds familiar, 'cept for the bit about who said it:

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails God said it believe it.JPG  
    Last edited by Hard-up1; January 19th, 2013 at 12:37 AM.

  12. #112
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Nope, you have not ^_^ You can't answer simple questions, thus proving OUR point and failing miserably at simple logic. Feel free to respond with equally meaningless drivel and we can shoot "no you!", "no you!" at each other all night.


    Or, you can calm the fuck down, answer two simple questions and continue the actual conversation.

    Which matters more to you? The argument or your own ego?
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  13. #113
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard-up1 View Post
    Sounds familiar, 'cept for the bit about who said it:

    I take it that's a bit of self reflection?

  14. #114
    Hard-up1
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Missed that point too, eh?

    Baseless assertions and la-la-la-la responses are the refuge of Fundamentalists, and apparently some would-be debaters.

  15. #115
    Hard-up1
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Nope, you have not ^_^ You can't answer simple questions, thus proving OUR point and failing miserably at simple logic. Feel free to respond with equally meaningless drivel and we can shoot "no you!", "no you!" at each other all night.


    Or, you can calm the fuck down, answer two simple questions and continue the actual conversation.

    Which matters more to you? The argument or your own ego?
    That answer was apparent before this thread had ever begun.

  16. #116
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard-up1 View Post
    Missed that point too, eh?

    Baseless assertions and la-la-la-la responses are the refuge of Fundamentalists, and apparently some would-be debaters.
    Baseless assertions? Well, isn't this ironic?

    Edit: Ooo... I wish some wouldn't quote blocked users Ones with major egos.

  17. #117
    Hard-up1
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    What kind of debating coward runs from proving his argument and then retreats into Ignore? If we had debate moderators here, you'd be laughed out of the room.

    I know proofs very well. I began by posting a link to Stanford. I don't have to defend a nationally recognized university's current webpage. It spoke for itself.

    It's easy to look in the mirror and proclaim one's emperor status when standing in a room alone in your jammies.
    Last edited by Hard-up1; January 19th, 2013 at 12:51 AM.

  18. #118
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Poor thing, bless your little heart ^_^ And you were actually right the entire time. If you'd only bothered to open the Wikipedia page about identical twins, you would have seen that identical twins AREN'T actually identical. Even monozygotic twins actually develop genetic differences in the womb, from a very early stage of pregnancy "due to mutations (or copy errors) taking place in the DNA of each twin after the splitting of the embryo".

    But I wanted to see if you were capable of actually defending your point with more than outrage, and as usual it was proven that you can't. Heck, you can't even open a wikipedia article to check stuff for yourself
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  19. #119
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard-up1 View Post
    What kind of debating coward runs from proving his argument and then retreats into Ignore? If we had debate moderators here, you'd be laughed out of the room.
    LOL. Irony again. I haven't been laughed out of anything. Based on prior "debates", total and utter irony. Considering I've won out in many of those.

    It's easy to look in the mirror and proclaim one's emperor status when standing in a room alone in your jammies.
    Oh puh-lease. Insulting is what I see in most of your posts. And please cut the passive aggressive nonsense.

  20. #120
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    I tried... I failed.

  21. #121
    Hard-up1
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    But I wanted to see if you were capable of actually defending your point with more than outrage, and as usual it was proven that you can't. Heck, you can't even open a wikipedia article to check stuff for yourself
    WRONG! Wikipedia is NOT a source. If it says salt is white, it's not!

    *foams at the mouth*

    *returns to mirror to admire PJs*

    *runs to window to check for men on the street*

    *pulls shade down and turns off light*

    *hides*

    *mumbles about irony*

    *concentrates hard to try to remember what passive aggressive might mean*

    *fails*

    And yeah, this isn't debate. That much was known before the posting ever began.
    Last edited by Hard-up1; January 19th, 2013 at 01:06 AM.

  22. #122
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard-up1 View Post
    WRONG! Wikipedia is NOT a source. If it says salt is white, it's not!

    *foams at the mouth*

    *returns to mirror to admire PJs*




    Edit: Awww... the post was edited... Look I can edit too!

  23. #123
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    We are all born as a single cell organism.

    Case closed.

  24. #124
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard-up1 View Post
    WRONG! Wikipedia is NOT a source. If it says salt is white, it's not!

    *foams at the mouth*

    *returns to mirror to admire PJs*

    *runs to window to check for men on the street*

    *pulls shade down and turns off light*

    *hides*

    *mumbles about irony*

    *concentrates hard to try to remember what passive aggressive might mean*

    *fails*

    And yeah, this isn't debate. That much was known before the posting ever began.
    Uh oh...this thread is going on the rocks!

  25. #125
    panegyric JUB Admin Corny's Avatar
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by CupidBoy View Post
    Those Madonna stans will stop at nothing, smh.
    Best post in this thread
    Check out my very own Body Hair Lovers and Photography Groups!

  26. #126
    JUB Addict Anders123's Avatar
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by Corny View Post
    Best post in this thread
    To be fair, with all the pettiness he didn't really have much competition.

    Still, thanks for quoting it. I missed it the first time around, and it gave me a good chuckle.

  27. #127
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by Corny View Post
    Best post in this thread

    Quoted for truth.

  28. #128
    The Mother of Loki Laufey's Avatar
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    GiancarloC you really need to answer this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Giancarlo, you are not paying attention. Identical twins are genetically identical. They are literally the same person physically. The genetic predisposition is there, which is why there is a strong chance that if one is gay, then the other should be too. But if it were only genetic, only nature, with no nurture, then it would be absolutely, and with no exception, that both twins would share the same sexuality. And therefore that they do not always do, is an absolute proof that homosexuality, while certainly having a major genetic component, is not entirely genetic. Whether you have a major problem with it or not, it is what it is.
    If not at least have the decency to admit you were wrong and move on.

  29. #129
    CupidBoy
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by Corny View Post
    Best post in this thread
    Hew else?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anders123 View Post
    To be fair, with all the pettiness he didn't really have much competition.

    Still, thanks for quoting it. I missed it the first time around, and it gave me a good chuckle.
    Shade.

    Quote Originally Posted by rareboy View Post
    Quoted for truth.
    What else would you quote?

  30. #130
    Thankfully Liberal & Gay
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    My argument is based on the fact that identical - monozygotic - twins are genetically identical. That means that ANY nature factor that applies to the one, applies to the other. Which means that if being gay is purely nature, then if one of them is gay, the other has to be as well, since they share the exact same genetic code.

    If you disagree with that, please give me some explanation as to why.
    I think that genetic code only gives somebody the TENDENCY to turn out gay, but that it's a combination of many other things which may also influence that tendency after birth. (Afterbirth? Cool! I think I'll go out and buy a couple boxes of Placenta Helper. Yummy!!) It's also possible that something as trivial as the relative position of the two twins in the uterus on the 37th or 38th day (maybe because of gravitational differences because one is closer to upside-down or something, or one in a position to feel a little bit more or less effect from Mom walking or sitting down, etc.) could cause some developmental differences.

    I think turning out gay USUALLY includes something genetic or physiological, *and* USUALLY involves something in upbringing as well - and probably, usually, involves both.

    As long as science hasn't proven anything yet, I think that both of these can reasonably contribute to the outcome.
    Last edited by frankfrank; January 19th, 2013 at 06:51 AM.
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  31. #131
    Hard-up1
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by frankfrank View Post
    It's also possible that something as trivial as the relative position of the two twins in the uterus
    *begins Googling pics of twins giving BJs in utero*

    *searches for "embryo spooning"*

    *runs back to check window*

  32. #132
    The gay gargoyle
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    * defriends Hard-Up *

    Lex

  33. #133
    Hard-up1
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Touche

  34. #134
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by frankfrank View Post
    I think that genetic code only gives somebody the TENDENCY to turn out gay, but that it's a combination of many other things which may also influence that tendency after birth. (Afterbirth? Cool! I think I'll go out and buy a couple boxes of Placenta Helper. Yummy!!) It's also possible that something as trivial as the relative position of the two twins in the uterus on the 37th or 38th day (maybe because of gravitational differences because one is closer to upside-down or something, or one in a position to feel a little bit more or less effect from Mom walking or sitting down, etc.) could cause some developmental differences.

    I think turning out gay USUALLY includes something genetic or physiological, *and* USUALLY involves something in upbringing as well - and probably, usually, involves both.

    As long as science hasn't proven anything yet, I think that both of these can reasonably contribute to the outcome.
    Nothing you say is in disagreement with anything I've said.

    Except for my last post before this one, which I hope won't be quoted by anyone, since I wanna see how long it will take Giancarlo to completely-by-accident-and-not-at-all-because-he-can't-actually-ignore-anyone-for-real-and-not-know-what-they're-saying-about-him stumble on the same information
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  35. #135
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by Laufey View Post
    GiancarloC you really need to answer this:

    If not at least have the decency to admit you were wrong and move on.
    Asked and answered. It's not good for one to parrot others.

  36. #136
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Yeah, I'm sure your mirror was very proud of the answer nobody else heard.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  37. #137
    Kien
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Monozygotic twins are used in genetic studies and concordance rates are used to measure how much influence genetics have on 'conditions.' If the concordance rate is not 100%, there are environmental factors that influences that condition.

    With that said, I have an identical twin. I'm gay, he's not. Therefore, the concordance rate is not 100%, suggesting that something other than our same genetics had an effect on our different sexualities. That's enough evidence for me.

  38. #138
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    But not for Giancarlo who knows genetics better than anyone else BECAUSE OF REASONS!
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  39. #139
    The Mother of Loki Laufey's Avatar
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    It's even a possibility that genes have nothing to do with it.

    The womb is an environmental factor the identical twins share. The hormonal theory (the more older brothers you have the more likely you are to be gay) could be the biggest factor, even without the role of genes. I don't think it's likely that genes have no role in this but it is a possibility.

    If this is the case then that would be enough to explain the increased likelihood of both twins being gay since it's something which happens in the womb which they share for 9 months.

  40. #140
    Quality posting since 2K7 Nishin's Avatar
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    ^ Or the gay uncle thing

  41. #141
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    ^ Or watching Ellen

  42. #142
    The Mother of Loki Laufey's Avatar
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Or seeing a vagina before puberty

  43. #143
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by Laufey View Post
    It's even a possibility that genes have nothing to do with it.
    Really? Care to prove that statement?

    The hormonal theory (the more older brothers you have the more likely you are to be gay) could be the biggest factor, even without the role of genes. I don't think it's likely that genes have no role in this but it is a possibility.
    No it's not. It falls down to chromosomes and genes.

    http://www.who.int/genomics/gender/en/index2.html

    The WHO has several studies posted on this site discussing genetics. I believe genetics is the biggest factor.

  44. #144
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Ah, sweetness. Now it's just the BIGGEST factor, not the ONLY one. I like how it only took a night of hysterics to come to my point
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  45. #145

    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Ah, sweetness. Now it's just the BIGGEST factor, not the ONLY one. I like how it only took a night of hysterics to come to my point
    ROFL...

  46. #146

    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    How does it not help our cause? That's rubbish. It shows that we are not making a choice or some trauma in our childhood caused it. The born this way argument absolutely does help.
    So agree with this. I refuse to believe I choose this. I didn't understand it when I was younger, but since Elementary school, I felt attraction towards boys "girls too at that time, but that's a different story". I didn't see a TV shows or thought being gay was cool.
    Eternal youth and endless life. I'll sacrifice everything and everyone to obtain it

  47. #147
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by ILLBFIRE View Post
    ROFL...
    It irritates me when someone quotes another's sophomoric rants that I have on block

    I never said anything about environment in my post. I rule it out completely.

  48. #148
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post

    It irritates me when someone quotes another's sophomoric rants that I have on block

    I never said anything about environment in my post. I rule it out completely.
    Ah of course. It's mostly genetics and a bit of unicorn magic.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  49. #149
    Hard-up1
    Guest

    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by diamondstar View Post
    So agree with this.
    Agreeing with it is well and good, but you seem to be buying into the notion that it MUST be genetic in order to NOT be a choice. Those two are not inextricably linked.

    If one of the origins (being careful to not assume the unknown -- that there is only one origin) of homosexuality is a physical environmental factor (flooding the womb with estrogen, drinking Fresca when pregnant, the presence of an overbearing mother), that doesn't follow that one chooses to be gay. If it results in an orientation that it is embedded in the brain or psyche, it would be just as internalized as if it were genetically determined.

    Excuse the comparison to a negative, but child abusers are oriented to children, and we do not have evidence that it is genetically based, rather environmentally. They don't wake up one day and choose to find a six-year-old erotic. But, I've never seen a study anywhere that says the abuser can be rehabilitated, only mitigated, the point being orientation is imprinted and becomes subconscious. The mitigation for pedophilia is to arrest the behavior, not remove the orientation. Again, excuse the comparison, but orientation is orientation, be it morally acceptable or not.

    For gay men, the orientation is not immoral, so there is no need to mitigate. We are who we are an validly so, regardless of the source of our attraction. As some of us are attracted to vastly different expressions of homosexuality, it certainly suggests there is some component other than purely biological. Otherwise, you don't have a good genetic model to explain why one 20 year old is attracted to feminine guys and the next to grandpas, and everything in between That clearly suggests a cultural or psychological aspect to much of homosexuality, as there really isn't a strong parallel with straight guys only being attracted to butch girls or grannies. Who of your classmates started dating along those lines?

    That homosexuality was removed from the American Psychological Association's list of diseases did not remove it from having psychological causations or origins, only that it was no longer considered a defect or dysfunctional behavior. If a young man only found himself attracted to one type of woman, named butch or old, no one would suggest that had been genetically caused. Whereas these peripheral questions may not represent the mainstream in either straights or gays, the basis of many scientific theory has been in using the exception to prove the rule.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Ah of course. It's mostly genetics and a bit of unicorn magic.
    In the words of RobertAC, "just because."
    Last edited by Hard-up1; January 20th, 2013 at 01:24 AM.

  50. #150

    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    2. Why are identical twins not a proof that genetics isn't the only factor defining sexuality?
    Because we can never be 100% sure that "straight" twins of homosexuals in the studies are telling the truth about their own sexuality.

    Do the discordant twins in these studies prove an environmental factor for being gay, or do they simply prove an environmental factor for being openly gay?

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