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  1. #51
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Insults are an easy way out.
    So are bold assertions without any proof.

  2. #52
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Why are not twins proof? Please explain.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  3. #53
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Pot calling the kettle black. I know what i'm talking about. So try again.
    Once again, "bold assertions without any proof."

  4. #54
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    How is it proof of nurture? Please explain.
    My argument is based on the fact that identical - monozygotic - twins are genetically identical. That means that ANY nature factor that applies to the one, applies to the other. Which means that if being gay is purely nature, then if one of them is gay, the other has to be as well, since they share the exact same genetic code.

    If you disagree with that, please give me some explanation as to why.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  5. #55
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Again, one can look at the assertions you've made and make the same statement. Stating it is "unknown" is a bold assertion itself considering there have been about two decades of study in this field so far (and perhaps more).

    Inconsistency seems to be a problem in that argument.
    I'm not sure you quite understand how science is done. Everything is assumed to be unknown by default. Then, once somebody has an idea as to the cause, they make a hypothesis and try to prove the null hypothesis. Then, if it stands, it is corroborated what the evidence given. Does that mean that the experiement was infalliable? No, science doesn't make absolute claims, but rather the liklihood that what is being claimed is actually the case.

    To state plainly, claiming that something is unknown is not an assertion that needs to be supported, but rather the default argument that must be proven wrong.

  6. #56
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    [QUOTE=GiancarloC;8646003]Oh but I do. And I already explained how science is done... but I guess that just went out of the window when some were reading my posts. I already discussed the scientific method. Science has a set of perimeters and the environment argument has failed miserably in that regard. THere is no real conclusive evidence linking the twins argument to environment. There are only circumstantial claims. I know science quite well... but perhaps I can direct you to a website that discusses the scientific method?QUOTE]

    Nice try buddy, but I have years of scientific education and research on you.

    What assertion have I made? Please, enlighten me? By asserting my complete ignorance about the causes of homosexuality? Guilty as charged

  7. #57
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    If you're done slapping each other with your purses, perhaps Giancarlo can focus on the actual argument.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  8. #58
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Um, did you read my last post? The one explaining why twins are proof? You can't simply dismiss it without giving a compelling reason. That's how argument works - if you disagree with something, you need to explain to the room why you disagree.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  9. #59
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Evidently not.



    Where is your evidence? I haven't seen any links or proof backing your claims. Yes, as I suspected. Just assertions... and egotistical ones at that.
    I've heard you majored in Political science. I'm sorry to say, but that doesn't count as science studies. Me, I have years of biology, chemistry and physics studies behind me. I have worked on several research projects from molecular biology to aquatic toxicology and histological projects. Please, enlighten me as to how I don't know how the scientific process works.

  10. #60
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    That two things are the same isn't proof that they are the same? There is nothing circumstantial about genetics. Two things are identical, or they aren't. And if they are, then any change that occurs is not caused by genetics, but by outside factors. Doesn't mean we know what those are.

    Again, don't just tell me that I am wrong. Address the specific case - two identical - monozygotic - twins who are genetically the same person, but of different sexualities. Since you do not accept it as proof of anything, it falls on YOU to explain why that is so. Why are they not proof?
    Last edited by Rolyo85; January 19th, 2013 at 12:05 AM.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  11. #61
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Wow here we go... now anyone can exaggerate their own background on the internet. I'm sorry to say but don't even try to fucking attack my education.

    - - - Updated - - -



    That still does not prove the environmental argument... show some evidence it does. I don't believe mere words.
    Ohh please, Do you want me to send you picture of me in lab working? If I were to exagurate, I would have aimed a little higher than that. Your pathetic attempt at diverting away from reality shows your overall insecurity.

  12. #62
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    You respond too quickly. I edited. And I don't need to prove a PROOF. YOU have to tell me why it isn't proof.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  13. #63
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Frankly, you don't make any sense at this point. You're thrashing frantically about, just throwing the words "proof" and "mere words", and "circumstantial claim", but you give no reason for why you don't agree, other than "it's just not true lalalalala". I asked you questions - answer them before you demand more proof.

    Again - I want YOUR explanation for why twins aren't a good proof.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  14. #64
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Then don't fucking insult my education in a lame attempt to discredit me. Insecurity? Who was the one who brought up my background in the first place? Hypocrisy is never a good thing.

    - - - Updated - - -




    I guess it's too hard for some to provide sources for their argument. I'm not asking for words, I am asking for proof... if you want me to admit I am mistaken.
    I'm not saying that your education was worthless, but when I say that I have more scientific education than you, that's something that I can readily prove. How many college credits have you taken? What sort of scientific research projects have you participated in?

  15. #65
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    What do you want links for? That identical twins are genetically identical? That's a well known fact, it's not anything requiring links. Common knowledge. You can read the article in Wikipedia and see it with your own eyes.

    So why aren't twins proof, Giancarlo? You keep demanding prof without it being clear what you're asking proof of, yet you dodge that one simple answer. Afraid you can't?
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  16. #66
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Insulting someones education or background shows insecurity. And that's exactly what happened here.

    What do I need to prove about my education? I finished undergrad and grad school quite some time ago. What does college credits have to do with this argument? I'm sorry to say but you ought to take a step back from that. Stop trying to make this personal.


    What it has to prove is that your silly assumption about a science student/research student not knowing the scientific process is annoyingly ignorant.

    I'd love to continue this fun debate, but I have to go shove my penis in a meat grinder.

  17. #67
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    And you're not making any sense either. I have asked for links for your argument and I have yet to see any. I asked for the proof before and I haven't seen it. Your words are not proof.
    Giancarlo let me just try to calmly tell you where I think the other two are coming from.

    People are made up from their genetics, their environment/nurture, and from things that interplayed off the two.

    By deduction, if we establish that something isn't 100% genetically causal, like for example identical twins not sharing the same sexuality... then just by simple reasoning, some PORTION of what established their sexuality must be one of the other two factors besides just genetics.

    At least, I believe that's what has been hotly argued and misunderstood over the last page of this thread.

    That's why people are asking why you're demanding links. We can't prove what environmental factors influence sexuality--- we're merely deducing that they must play some role, since we eliminate that genetics isn't producing a 1:1 causality of genes to sexuality.

  18. #68
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    ^^ I said those exact words pretty much several times ^^

  19. #69
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Again that's just simply skirting the question. Thanks for proving my point. And wikipedia is not a source. And telling someone "go google it"... or that "it's common knowledge"... is quite insulting.

    No wonder some fail in political debates. I guess I'll have to use that ignore list. Ciao.
    Sugar, you don't have the authority to eject me from a conversation. The loudest barking dog isn't the best argument winner, it's just the one that people stop paying attention to, which is what usually happens to you in CE&P, if we're gonna be talking about who loses what in politics.

    You have no point to prove at the moment, other than some vague outrage over a vague subject that you're dodging to even identify. Yelling for proof is not equal to winning an argument. I repeat my two questions. In order to progress in this so called argument, you need to respond to them first, so that people know what you're even barking about:

    1. What links are you asking for. What should those links prove? In order for anyone to provide them, we need to know what you are asking for.

    2. Why are identical twins not a proof that genetics isn't the only factor defining sexuality?


    Showing proof falls equally on both sides of an argument. You can't only ask for it without providing it yourself. Answer me those two questions and I'll pile links upon you like gold upon a dragonslayer.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  20. #70
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Oh, and btw, insulting or not, the fact that identical twins are genetically identical IS common knowledge. Not really my issue here if you don't know it.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  21. #71
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Nope, you have not ^_^ You can't answer simple questions, thus proving OUR point and failing miserably at simple logic. Feel free to respond with equally meaningless drivel and we can shoot "no you!", "no you!" at each other all night.


    Or, you can calm the fuck down, answer two simple questions and continue the actual conversation.

    Which matters more to you? The argument or your own ego?
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  22. #72
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Poor thing, bless your little heart ^_^ And you were actually right the entire time. If you'd only bothered to open the Wikipedia page about identical twins, you would have seen that identical twins AREN'T actually identical. Even monozygotic twins actually develop genetic differences in the womb, from a very early stage of pregnancy "due to mutations (or copy errors) taking place in the DNA of each twin after the splitting of the embryo".

    But I wanted to see if you were capable of actually defending your point with more than outrage, and as usual it was proven that you can't. Heck, you can't even open a wikipedia article to check stuff for yourself
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  23. #73
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    I tried... I failed.

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    Re: Not Born This Way

    We are all born as a single cell organism.

    Case closed.

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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard-up1 View Post
    WRONG! Wikipedia is NOT a source. If it says salt is white, it's not!

    *foams at the mouth*

    *returns to mirror to admire PJs*

    *runs to window to check for men on the street*

    *pulls shade down and turns off light*

    *hides*

    *mumbles about irony*

    *concentrates hard to try to remember what passive aggressive might mean*

    *fails*

    And yeah, this isn't debate. That much was known before the posting ever began.
    Uh oh...this thread is going on the rocks!

  26. #76
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by CupidBoy View Post
    Those Madonna stans will stop at nothing, smh.
    Best post in this thread
    Check out my very own Body Hair Lovers and Photography Groups!

  27. #77
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by Corny View Post
    Best post in this thread
    To be fair, with all the pettiness he didn't really have much competition.

    Still, thanks for quoting it. I missed it the first time around, and it gave me a good chuckle.

  28. #78
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by Corny View Post
    Best post in this thread

    Quoted for truth.

  29. #79
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    GiancarloC you really need to answer this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Giancarlo, you are not paying attention. Identical twins are genetically identical. They are literally the same person physically. The genetic predisposition is there, which is why there is a strong chance that if one is gay, then the other should be too. But if it were only genetic, only nature, with no nurture, then it would be absolutely, and with no exception, that both twins would share the same sexuality. And therefore that they do not always do, is an absolute proof that homosexuality, while certainly having a major genetic component, is not entirely genetic. Whether you have a major problem with it or not, it is what it is.
    If not at least have the decency to admit you were wrong and move on.

  30. #80
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    My argument is based on the fact that identical - monozygotic - twins are genetically identical. That means that ANY nature factor that applies to the one, applies to the other. Which means that if being gay is purely nature, then if one of them is gay, the other has to be as well, since they share the exact same genetic code.

    If you disagree with that, please give me some explanation as to why.
    I think that genetic code only gives somebody the TENDENCY to turn out gay, but that it's a combination of many other things which may also influence that tendency after birth. (Afterbirth? Cool! I think I'll go out and buy a couple boxes of Placenta Helper. Yummy!!) It's also possible that something as trivial as the relative position of the two twins in the uterus on the 37th or 38th day (maybe because of gravitational differences because one is closer to upside-down or something, or one in a position to feel a little bit more or less effect from Mom walking or sitting down, etc.) could cause some developmental differences.

    I think turning out gay USUALLY includes something genetic or physiological, *and* USUALLY involves something in upbringing as well - and probably, usually, involves both.

    As long as science hasn't proven anything yet, I think that both of these can reasonably contribute to the outcome.
    Last edited by frankfrank; January 19th, 2013 at 06:51 AM.
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  31. #81
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    * defriends Hard-Up *

    Lex

  32. #82
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by frankfrank View Post
    I think that genetic code only gives somebody the TENDENCY to turn out gay, but that it's a combination of many other things which may also influence that tendency after birth. (Afterbirth? Cool! I think I'll go out and buy a couple boxes of Placenta Helper. Yummy!!) It's also possible that something as trivial as the relative position of the two twins in the uterus on the 37th or 38th day (maybe because of gravitational differences because one is closer to upside-down or something, or one in a position to feel a little bit more or less effect from Mom walking or sitting down, etc.) could cause some developmental differences.

    I think turning out gay USUALLY includes something genetic or physiological, *and* USUALLY involves something in upbringing as well - and probably, usually, involves both.

    As long as science hasn't proven anything yet, I think that both of these can reasonably contribute to the outcome.
    Nothing you say is in disagreement with anything I've said.

    Except for my last post before this one, which I hope won't be quoted by anyone, since I wanna see how long it will take Giancarlo to completely-by-accident-and-not-at-all-because-he-can't-actually-ignore-anyone-for-real-and-not-know-what-they're-saying-about-him stumble on the same information
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  33. #83
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Yeah, I'm sure your mirror was very proud of the answer nobody else heard.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  34. #84
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    But not for Giancarlo who knows genetics better than anyone else BECAUSE OF REASONS!
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  35. #85
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    It's even a possibility that genes have nothing to do with it.

    The womb is an environmental factor the identical twins share. The hormonal theory (the more older brothers you have the more likely you are to be gay) could be the biggest factor, even without the role of genes. I don't think it's likely that genes have no role in this but it is a possibility.

    If this is the case then that would be enough to explain the increased likelihood of both twins being gay since it's something which happens in the womb which they share for 9 months.

  36. #86
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    ^ Or the gay uncle thing

  37. #87
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    ^ Or watching Ellen

  38. #88
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Or seeing a vagina before puberty

  39. #89
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Ah, sweetness. Now it's just the BIGGEST factor, not the ONLY one. I like how it only took a night of hysterics to come to my point
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  40. #90

    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Ah, sweetness. Now it's just the BIGGEST factor, not the ONLY one. I like how it only took a night of hysterics to come to my point
    ROFL...

  41. #91

    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    How does it not help our cause? That's rubbish. It shows that we are not making a choice or some trauma in our childhood caused it. The born this way argument absolutely does help.
    So agree with this. I refuse to believe I choose this. I didn't understand it when I was younger, but since Elementary school, I felt attraction towards boys "girls too at that time, but that's a different story". I didn't see a TV shows or thought being gay was cool.
    Eternal youth and endless life. I'll sacrifice everything and everyone to obtain it

  42. #92
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post

    It irritates me when someone quotes another's sophomoric rants that I have on block

    I never said anything about environment in my post. I rule it out completely.
    Ah of course. It's mostly genetics and a bit of unicorn magic.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  43. #93

    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    2. Why are identical twins not a proof that genetics isn't the only factor defining sexuality?
    Because we can never be 100% sure that "straight" twins of homosexuals in the studies are telling the truth about their own sexuality.

    Do the discordant twins in these studies prove an environmental factor for being gay, or do they simply prove an environmental factor for being openly gay?

  44. #94
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MVincent View Post

    Because we can never be 100% sure that "straight" twins of homosexuals in the studies are telling the truth about their own sexuality.

    Do the discordant twins in these studies prove an environmental factor for being gay, or do they simply prove an environmental factor for being openly gay?
    It takes one twin couple that we're certain is telling the truth. Just one. And there have been many. I even remember a cover story inInstinct a year or two ago.

    Anyway, I already explained why twins aren't actually solid proof of anything, some time ago. Around the end of the temper tantrum purse fight.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  45. #95
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by MVincent View Post
    Because we can never be 100% sure that "straight" twins of homosexuals in the studies are telling the truth about their own sexuality.

    Do the discordant twins in these studies prove an environmental factor for being gay, or do they simply prove an environmental factor for being openly gay?
    On this reasoning you can never be sure any homosexual, anywhere, is ever telling the truth about their sexuality-- or any straight person. In which case there is no point in any study or any research.

  46. #96

    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    It takes one twin couple that we're certain is telling the truth.
    But that's my point. No, we will never be 100% certain that the one twin couple - or many - or those in your Instinct story - are telling the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Until science develops an infallible lie detector, the closet can never be ruled out.

  47. #97

    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    On this reasoning you can never be sure any homosexual, anywhere, is ever telling the truth about their sexuality-- or any straight person. In which case there is no point in any study or any research.
    So, the only way to study homosexuality is to assume that everyone, everywhere, is always telling the truth about their sexuality?

  48. #98
    Quality posting since 2K7 Nishin's Avatar
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Usually the lying is taken into account in studies though ...

  49. #99
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by MVincent View Post
    So, the only way to study homosexuality is to assume that everyone, everywhere, is always telling the truth about their sexuality?
    You're the one claiming we have to disregard results where a sibling or twin claims a different sexuality because "they could be lying." What is your proposed control system or methodology for that?

  50. #100

    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    You're the one claiming we have to disregard results where a sibling or twin claims a different sexuality because "they could be lying." What is your proposed control system or methodology for that?
    I claimed no such thing, and I propose nothing.

    I simply stated one of the reasons why you can't prove with 100% certainty that environment plays a role in determining homosexuality, by using identical twins with discordantly professed sexualities. It may just be evidence of the environmental factors determining honesty, or security, or shame.

    The 1991 Bailey/Pallard study may have concluded that only 52% of monozygotic twins were both homosexual... or it may simply be evidence that around 24% of gay people tend to be closeted.
    Last edited by MVincent; January 20th, 2013 at 05:02 AM.

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