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  1. #51
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by Laufey View Post
    I wasn't saying it is. I'm just saying you can interpret it being genetic both in a negative and a positive way. Just like you can interpret things the environment shapes both negative and positive.
    People can interpret Obama as being the anti-Christ... but some interpretations such as that one are plain and pure BS. And the environment argument is entirely negative. It infers a choice and some other trauma like having an alcoholic father.

    Please explain to me why being gay is suddenly bad just because it's roots are other than genetic?
    I don't need to. The environment argument itself is negative as it infers a choice or it was brought up about by some other traumatic experience. Sexuality isn't a light switch.

    We don't deserve legitimacy if we weren't born gay? Why not?
    I was born gay, therefore that ends that question. And thanks for twisting what I said once again. I don't answer rhetorical questions that have no logic.

  2. #52
    Hard-up1
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Stanford is not afraid to say that it is both:

    http://genetics.thetech.org/ask/ask155

    Causation can be implied by the genetic stage that is set, but events in utero, or perhaps even after, are implicated in the expression of the genetic trait.

    That the occurrence is infrequent is a given, which makes it statistically abnormal. But, the incidence of red hair is also progressively abnormal in the total human population.

    Picking a fight about homosexual causation, especially when science surrounding it is incomplete and piecemeal, is obviously a political fight because one thinks there is an advantage or not in certain viewpoints. I find that quite silly.

    Causation is not the basis of the fight for gay rights. Gay's rights are the basis for gay rights and it is merely the next phase of the continuum of recognizing minority rights. In time, serfs, subjects, slaves, children, women, Jews, and others have been given their place at the table. It is now our turn, and the morality argument has been effectively defeated; we only need to keep looking to watch the corpse rot away.

    Why argue about what we don't know? Anyone who is an honest student of science will admit we don't know. Objective science doesn't bend to political whim.

  3. #53
    The Mother of Loki Laufey's Avatar
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Something you weren't born with can still be hard-wired. So sexuality not being set in stone when you are born doesn't necessarily mean that it's gonna be flexible after it's formed.

    And the environment argument is entirely negative. It infers a choice and some other trauma like having an alcoholic father.
    Changes from environmental factors aren't always negative they can be positive too. Just because you are too simple minded to see trauma and choice as the only two possibilities on the environmental side doesn't mean everybody else think the same way.

  4. #54
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    The science has been ongoing for over a decade or two now... certainly that's not incomplete or piecemeal. This isn't about politics. The environment argument simply doesn't have a sound basis. And I do know... I didn't choose to be gay nor was it something in the environment that made me gay. This is a personal argument, but it is one that does handle on its own.

  5. #55
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    ^ In fairness, Hard-up1... .even acknowledging post-birth factors and in-utero factors would still negate a "choice" position on one's sexuality.

  6. #56
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by Laufey View Post
    Something you weren't born with can still be hard-wired. So sexuality not being set in stone when you are born doesn't necessarily mean that it's gonna be flexible after it's formed.
    Nope. That doesn't have a basis.

    Changes from environmental factors aren't always negative they can be positive too. Just because you are too simple minded to see trauma and choice as the only two possibilities on the environmental side doesn't mean everybody else think the same way.
    They are always negative. And insulting me won't convince me of your argument. Environment is the argument used by those advocates of "ex-gay therapy" which is proving difficult to ban in this country. I am not going to sway to some argument that has been debunked a thousand times over.

  7. #57
    The Mother of Loki Laufey's Avatar
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    I didn't choose to be gay nor was it something in the environment that made me gay.
    It is at least partly. Or else all identical twins would have the same sexuality.

    If one twin is gay the other one is more likely to be also... but it's not a sure thing.

    Suggesting sexuality is from both genetic and environmental factors.

    Anyway I'm not really on the environmental side here I'm just saying that it doesn't make the nature of homosexual behavior worse or better depending on the roots. When you fuck a guy it's the same thing no matter if it comes from your genes or someplace else.

  8. #58
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by Laufey View Post
    It is at least partly. Or else all identical twins would have the same sexuality.

    If one twin is gay the other one is more likely to be also... but it's not a sure thing.

    Suggesting sexuality is from both genetic and environmental factors.
    True. The last study I saw was that identical twins raised in separate households (such as in adoption scenarios), if one is gay there is a 60% chance the other is as well.

    Certainly far far higher than pure statistical likelihood should allow if there were not a strong genetic influence.

  9. #59
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by Laufey View Post
    It is at least partly. Or else all identical twins would have the same sexuality.
    It absolutely isn't. And that proves nothing for the silly environment argument.

    Suggesting sexuality is from both genetic and environmental factors.
    No it doesn't. The environment argument has been debunked a thousand times over.

    Anyway I'm not really on the environmental side here I'm just saying that it doesn't make the nature of homosexual behavior worse or better depending on the roots. When you fuck a guy it's the same thing no matter if it comes from your genes or someplace else.
    Nice rapid fire edit. Still doesn't justify the argument. And the environment argument is absolutely negative for the gay community. And fucking a guy? Is that all homosexuality is? Just about sex?

  10. #60
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by Laufey View Post
    It shouldn't matter whether you are born gay or not.

    If it's genetic you could argue that it's a disease.

    I've never been a fan of the "I was born this way" argument from our community.

    Lady Gaga's song takes it even further with "same DNA" (that line always makes me giggle).


    Arguing that something that is genetic is a disease is like saying that having green eyes is a disease. Diseases tend to impede the chances of survival or function of the organism. Homosexuality does neither of those. However, there are certain environmental factors that are classified as a disease that can proliferate within the gay communit, but that is completely independant of being gay. (HIV-AIDS)

    I am not a fan of the "I was born this way" argument either since it makes assumptions that are presently unknown. As far as I know, I haven't always been attracted to men as I am not, and if it were completely genetic, I would presume that the rate of homosexuality within twins would be higher than roughly 20%.

    Nevertheless, even if being homosexuality was 100% a choice (which I believe is a completely asinine statement as it leaves us open to attack anybody for any choice that they make in their life whether or not it has a direct impact on those around them), it isn't up to anybody to stop us from "choosing". What happened to personal freedoms? Did we rename the country to America, the land of social conformity?

  11. #61
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by youfiad View Post
    Arguing that something that is genetic is a disease is like saying that having green eyes is a disease. Diseases tend to impede the chances of survival or function of the organism. Homosexuality does neither of those. However, there are certain environmental factors that are classified as a disease that can proliferate within the gay communit, but that is completely independant of being gay. (HIV-AIDS)

    I am not a fan of the "I was born this way" argument either since it makes assumptions that are presently unknown. As far as I know, I haven't always been attracted to men as I am not, and if it were completely genetic, I would presume that the rate of homosexuality within twins would be higher than roughly 20%.

    Nevertheless, even if being homosexuality was 100% a choice (which I believe is a completely asinine statement as it leaves us open to attack anybody for any choice that they make in their life whether or not it has a direct impact on those around them), it isn't up to anybody to stop us from "choosing". What happened to personal freedoms? Did we rename the country to America, the land of social conformity?
    This is like saying breast cancer isn't genetic because one sister gets it and the other doesn't, though. Of course everything is an intermix of genetic and environmental. But two twins raised in the same house would have also had incredible overlap in the environmental factors. And when you say 20% I'm not sure if you're referring to all twins, fraternal twins (who are not genetically identical), or identical twins. The study I saw with identical twins was 60%.

  12. #62
    Hard-up1
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Choice and environmental causation are not equal.

    Environment means exactly that. Chemical, social, psychological and other factors are squarely environmental.

    Of course it is a political argument. It's obvious there is no room for debate, unlike in science where there is room.

    The presence of environment as a viable factor is an obvious threat to an argument being made. A child could see that if reading this thread. Verbal gesticulation doesn't make for facts, just assertions.

    And, commenting on edits made by posters after they have had time to read their own posts is just demeaning. There isn't anyone in the threads trying to pull a fast one and be evasive after posting. It is the norm for a man here to tweak, correct or refine his ideas. To bring his motive into question is just a cowardly attack on something that is an artifact of how the boards work. Stick to the topic, not the software. An able debater doesn't need to stoop to such distractions.
    Last edited by Hard-up1; January 18th, 2013 at 10:49 PM.

  13. #63
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    This is like saying breast cancer isn't genetic because one sister gets it and the other doesn't, though
    Brest cancer isn't genetic.... There are certain people who have predispositions to cancer, but nobody inherits cancer....

  14. #64
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by youfiad View Post
    Brest cancer isn't genetic.... There are certain people who have predispositions to cancer, but nobody inherits cancer....
    It has a very strong tendency to run in families. To the point where doctors will entirely change their treatment or recommended medicines for a particular woman who has a sister or mother or aunt who had breast cancer if the treatment in question is at all correlated with an increased risk of breast cancer.

    Are you defining genetic as "can only possibly manifest strictly through genes and by no other factor?" Because that is not the definition I've been using. Many genes can be present but remain dormant, for most or all of a person's lifetime. That doesn't mean the trait in question isn't genetic if it appears.

  15. #65
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    It absolutely isn't. And that proves nothing for the silly environment argument.



    No it doesn't. The environment argument has been debunked a thousand times over.



    Nice rapid fire edit. Still doesn't justify the argument. And the environment argument is absolutely negative for the gay community. And fucking a guy? Is that all homosexuality is? Just about sex?
    No, actually, it really does prove that environment plays a role, because identical twins are identical genetically. They should be either both gay, or both straight a 100% of the time. That they aren't, is an absolute and undeniable proof that whatever genetic factors are at play, they are not the exclusive reason for homosexuality.

    I have no problem with that, frankly. I do think whatever causes our sexuality to become what it is, happens in such early stages, that the "born this way" phrase totally applies. It isn't meant to be taken literally anyway. All it means is, "this is me, and this is who I am. I did not choose it and I am not ashamed of it". We don't need to be willfully blind to reality just so we don't lose ground. That's the other side's modus operandi, and we're better than that.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  16. #66
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard-up1 View Post
    Of course it is a political argument. It's obvious there is no room for debate, unlike in science where there is room.
    But this isn't a political argument. And if science has its own parameters known as the scientific method... this is where the environment argument falls flat on its face.

    And, commenting on edits made by posters after they have had time to read their own posts is just demeaning. There isn't anyone in the threads trying to pull a fast one and be evasive after posting. It is the norm for a man here to tweak, correct or refine his ideas. To bring his motive into question is just a cowardly attack on something that is an artifact of how the boards work. Stick to the topic, not the software. An able debater doesn't need to stoop to such distractions.
    Actually it's quite evasive and it's usually not about correcting or refining ideas. There was no cowardly attack (that's ironic I'm being accused of that). Nice try again. I have stuck to the topic very much.

  17. #67
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    No, actually, it really does prove that environment plays a role, because identical twins are identical genetically. They should be either both gay, or both straight a 100% of the time. That they aren't, is an absolute and undeniable proof that whatever genetic factors are at play, they are not the exclusive reason for homosexuality.
    It absolutely does not. There is still a high chance the other twin may be gay and that plays more into the biological argument.

    I have no problem with that, frankly. I do think whatever causes our sexuality to become what it is, happens in such early stages, that the "born this way" phrase totally applies. It isn't meant to be taken literally anyway. All it means is, "this is me, and this is who I am. I did not choose it and I am not ashamed of it". We don't need to be willfully blind to reality just so we don't lose ground. That's the other side's modus operandi, and we're better than that.
    I have a major problem with it because it infers that "ex-gay therapy" may be able to "change" sexuality... as it is just a "environmental issue" that can be repaired.

  18. #68
    Hard-up1
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Buzz, they are different.

    Pattern baldness is genetic.

    Other types of alopecia may be reactions to events in the health of the person, or environmentally induced.

    And then there are people who have weak hair genetically who may lose it because the weak hair was susceptible to coming out under stresses that do not cause baldness in a person with healthy hair genes.

    So, a condition can be genetic, environmental, or mixed.

  19. #69
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard-up1 View Post
    Buzz, they are different.

    Pattern baldness is genetic.

    Other types of alopecia may be reactions to events in the health of the person, or environmentally induced.

    And then there are people who have weak hair genetically who may lose it because the weak hair was susceptible to coming out under stresses that do not cause baldness in a person with healthy hair genes.

    So, a condition can be genetic, environmental, or mixed.
    Yes of course... but I'm confused, does this somehow change the fact that while also related to environment, diet, and lifestyle... many things like breast cancers run in families at correlations too strong to not have genetic linkages?

    I'm a bit confused as I have never claimed that either homosexuality or cancer are 100% genetic-- but it's fairly clear to me based on the medical evidence that there are strong genetic factors involved.

  20. #70
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    It has a very strong tendency to run in families. To the point where doctors will entirely change their treatment or recommended medicines for a particular woman who has a sister or mother or aunt who had breast cancer if the treatment in question is at all correlated with an increased risk of breast cancer.

    Are you defining genetic as "can only possibly manifest strictly through genes and by no other factor?" Because that is not the definition I've been using. Many genes can be present but remain dormant, for most or all of a person's lifetime. That doesn't mean the trait in question isn't genetic if it appears.


    Cancer in general has a tendancy to run in families, that is because genetic mutations are heritable from generation to generation. Our bodies spend a lot of the genetic material in controling cell grown and replication. If a person has accumulated or has had enough genes that control this function, they will most likely develope cancer. That trend is further perpetuated in cancer prone families where each child is born with already defective genes that control these cellular functions. One identical twin may go his/her entire life without mutating enough genes, whereas another, exposed to bad luck and certain environmental factions may unfortunately develop enough mutations to induce cancer.

    The same logic could be applied to homosexuality. This is purely speculative of course, but I feel highly plausable

  21. #71
    Execuvette Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    It absolutely does not. There is still a high chance the other twin may be gay and that plays more into the biological argument.



    I have a major problem with it because it infers that "ex-gay therapy" may be able to "change" sexuality... as it is just a "environmental issue" that can be repaired.
    Giancarlo, you are not paying attention. Identical twins are genetically identical. They are literally the same person physically. The genetic predisposition is there, which is why there is a strong chance that if one is gay, then the other should be too. But if it were only genetic, only nature, with no nurture, then it would be absolutely, and with no exception, that both twins would share the same sexuality. And therefore that they do not always do, is an absolute proof that homosexuality, while certainly having a major genetic component, is not entirely genetic. Whether you have a major problem with it or not, it is what it is.

    Nobody is claiming it is "JUST" an environmental issue. But clearly environment plays a part. And the only argument we need about why ex-gay therapy doesn't work is that it simply doesn't and never has. Those that claim to have been "cured" are always deeply religious and an obvious mockery of the human condition.

    But arguing with facts gets you nowhere. We may not know the factors that define sexuality, but we do know how genetics works, and identical twins are proof that genetics isn't the beginning and end of homosexuality. Unlike those that try to "cure" us, we believe in science, don't we?
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  22. #72
    Hard-up1
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    You make the point all too clearly, Buzz. To say genetic factors are involved is a statement that says they are not solely the causation, but are part of the story.

    Intelligence is a similar thing, and it isn't considered a disease by most cultures (and I won't make that claim for everyone posting here.) There is a predisposition for higher intellectual ability based upon genetic factors that basically make a better brain. But, if that predisposition is not fostered and enhanced with education and environment, a high intellect is never developed.

    There are easy examples to cite of children raised in extreme isolation and speech or a functional higher brain never develops and cannot make up the ground once the isolation is ended.

    Likewise, one may take a child with mental retardation, and no amount of environmental intervention will raise the thinking to a high intellect.

    Because human behavior is so complex, it is much more difficult to be conclusive about distinctions.

  23. #73
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    I think that many people here are confused at how complex genetics really is. There has been recent research that has looked at the epigenetic factors of homosexuality. Epigenetics is a fascinating area of biology that governs a wide range of diversity within identical twins. Also, you guys must realize that only a small fraction of the genome encodes for genes, the rest, according to the Encode project released mid last year, controls the time, rate and other factors of expressing these genes. It's really complex. I think arguing the causes of homosexuality is neither productive nor intelligent. It is simply an unknown cause. Anyone who claims otherwise deserves the title for Biggest Douche of the Year

  24. #74
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Giancarlo, you are not paying attention. Identical twins are genetically identical. They are literally the same person physically. The genetic predisposition is there, which is why there is a strong chance that if one is gay, then the other should be too. But if it were only genetic, only nature, with no nurture, then it would be absolutely, and with no exception, that both twins would share the same sexuality. And therefore that they do not always do, is an absolute proof that homosexuality, while certainly having a major genetic component, is not entirely genetic. Whether you have a major problem with it or not, it is what it is.
    I am paying attention to realize the environmental argument plays absolutely no part here. The nurture argument time and time again has been debunked. And the fact that the other twin has a very high chance of being gay lends to the biological argument. By the way, twins are not always the same. I can see things as they aer.

    Nobody is claiming it is "JUST" an environmental issue. But clearly environment plays a part. And the only argument we need about why ex-gay therapy doesn't work is that it simply doesn't and never has. Those that claim to have been "cured" are always deeply religious and an obvious mockery of the human condition.
    Environment has been a debunked issue many times over... I've heard people saying that hormones in food are causing a spike in homosexuality... these arguments are just ridiculous. Environment does not play a part nor will I ever accept it as a valid argument.

    But arguing with facts gets you nowhere. We may not know the factors that define sexuality, but we do know how genetics works, and identical twins are proof that genetics isn't the beginning and end of homosexuality. Unlike those that try to "cure" us, we believe in science, don't we?
    Opinion. Because that's all I see in this post. If we even lend the slightest shred of credibility to the environment argument... people will say "oh look! That lends credibility to "ex-gay" therapy. It's an incredibly dangerous path. This is why I refuse to give any ground to the environment argument and it has been debunked by both the APA and AMA many times over.

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    Re: Not Born This Way

    ^^ Person has no idea what talking about ^^

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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Giancarlo.

    It is not a VERSUS situation. Nobody with any sense is denying the biological factor. In fact, it probably plays MOST of the part. But it does not play ALL of it, and you can't debunk the nurture part, because identical twins make it non-debunkable. They prove it without a shadow of doubt, without any hope of anyone in any way debunking it. It's a fact. There is some component that's nurture. It might be 1% - I doubt it's more than 10% - but it is there.

    Again - not nature VERSUS nurture, but nature AND nurture. MORE nature and LESS nurture. But not ONLY nature. Accept it and move on, or give me a logical reason why two completely identical human beings could have differing sexualities.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  27. #77
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by youfiad View Post
    ^^ Person has no idea what talking about ^^
    Insults are an easy way out.

  28. #78
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Giancarlo.

    It is not a VERSUS situation. Nobody with any sense is denying the biological factor. In fact, it probably plays MOST of the part. But it does not play ALL of it, and you can't debunk the nurture part, because identical twins make it non-debunkable. They prove it without a shadow of doubt, without any hope of anyone in any way debunking it. It's a fact. There is some component that's nurture. It might be 1% - I doubt it's more than 10% - but it is there.
    I am saying that nurture simply doesn't have a basis here. And what you are talking about here is opinion, not proven fact beyond a reasonable doubt. Nurture is about a 0% factor.

    Again - not nature VERSUS nurture, but nature AND nurture. MORE nature and LESS nurture. But not ONLY nature. Accept it and move on, or give me a logical reason why two completely identical human beings could have differing sexualities.
    It's most certainly a versus situation. Nurture has never had one shred of evidence to it, and the twins argument doesn't prove the nurture argument either.

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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Insults are an easy way out.
    So are bold assertions without any proof.

  30. #80
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by youfiad View Post
    So are bold assertions without any proof.
    Pot calling the kettle black. I know what i'm talking about. So try again.

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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Why are not twins proof? Please explain.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Pot calling the kettle black. I know what i'm talking about. So try again.
    Once again, "bold assertions without any proof."

  33. #83
    GiancarloC
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by youfiad View Post
    Once again, "bold assertions without any proof."
    Again, one can look at the assertions you've made and make the same statement. Stating it is "unknown" is a bold assertion itself considering there have been about two decades of study in this field so far (and perhaps more).

    Inconsistency seems to be a problem in that argument.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Why are not twins proof? Please explain.
    How is it proof of nurture? Please explain.

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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    How is it proof of nurture? Please explain.
    My argument is based on the fact that identical - monozygotic - twins are genetically identical. That means that ANY nature factor that applies to the one, applies to the other. Which means that if being gay is purely nature, then if one of them is gay, the other has to be as well, since they share the exact same genetic code.

    If you disagree with that, please give me some explanation as to why.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Again, one can look at the assertions you've made and make the same statement. Stating it is "unknown" is a bold assertion itself considering there have been about two decades of study in this field so far (and perhaps more).

    Inconsistency seems to be a problem in that argument.
    I'm not sure you quite understand how science is done. Everything is assumed to be unknown by default. Then, once somebody has an idea as to the cause, they make a hypothesis and try to prove the null hypothesis. Then, if it stands, it is corroborated what the evidence given. Does that mean that the experiement was infalliable? No, science doesn't make absolute claims, but rather the liklihood that what is being claimed is actually the case.

    To state plainly, claiming that something is unknown is not an assertion that needs to be supported, but rather the default argument that must be proven wrong.

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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by youfiad View Post
    I'm not sure you quite understand how science is done. Everything is assumed to be unknown by default. Then, once somebody has an idea as to the cause, they make a hypothesis and try to prove the null hypothesis. Then, if it stands, it is corroborated what the evidence given. Does that mean that the experiement was infalliable? No, science doesn't make absolute claims, but rather the liklihood that what is being claimed is actually the case.
    Oh but I do. And I already explained how science is done... but I guess that just went out of the window when some were reading my posts. I already discussed the scientific method. Science has a set of perimeters and the environment argument has failed miserably in that regard. THere is no real conclusive evidence linking the twins argument to environment. There are only circumstantial claims. I know science quite well... but perhaps I can direct you to a website that discusses the scientific method?

    To state plainly, claiming that something is unknown is not an assertion that needs to be supported, but rather the default argument that must be proven wrong.
    Again, I'm not the one making assertions here... you are. Oh and there is biological/genetic evidence for sexuality... so why is it still being dismissed as an unknown?

    This is like arguing with a creationist.

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    Re: Not Born This Way

    [QUOTE=GiancarloC;8646003]Oh but I do. And I already explained how science is done... but I guess that just went out of the window when some were reading my posts. I already discussed the scientific method. Science has a set of perimeters and the environment argument has failed miserably in that regard. THere is no real conclusive evidence linking the twins argument to environment. There are only circumstantial claims. I know science quite well... but perhaps I can direct you to a website that discusses the scientific method?QUOTE]

    Nice try buddy, but I have years of scientific education and research on you.

    What assertion have I made? Please, enlighten me? By asserting my complete ignorance about the causes of homosexuality? Guilty as charged

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    Re: Not Born This Way

    If you're done slapping each other with your purses, perhaps Giancarlo can focus on the actual argument.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by youfiad View Post
    Nice try buddy, but I have years of scientific education and research on you.
    Evidently not.

    What assertion have I made? Please, enlighten me? By asserting my complete ignorance about the causes of homosexuality? Guilty as charged
    Where is your evidence? I haven't seen any links or proof backing your claims. Yes, as I suspected. Just assertions... and egotistical ones at that.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    If you're done slapping each other with your purses, perhaps Giancarlo can focus on the actual argument.
    I already addressed it and dismissed it. Where is the proof for the environmental argument? And I'm talking about concrete evidence and not circumstantial claims.

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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Um, did you read my last post? The one explaining why twins are proof? You can't simply dismiss it without giving a compelling reason. That's how argument works - if you disagree with something, you need to explain to the room why you disagree.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Um, did you read my last post? The one explaining why twins are proof? You can't simply dismiss it without giving a compelling reason. That's how argument works - if you disagree with something, you need to explain to the room why you disagree.
    That's a circumstantial claim and isn't concrete proof. Where is the proof that it is concrete? Where are the proven environmental factors making that the case?

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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Evidently not.



    Where is your evidence? I haven't seen any links or proof backing your claims. Yes, as I suspected. Just assertions... and egotistical ones at that.
    I've heard you majored in Political science. I'm sorry to say, but that doesn't count as science studies. Me, I have years of biology, chemistry and physics studies behind me. I have worked on several research projects from molecular biology to aquatic toxicology and histological projects. Please, enlighten me as to how I don't know how the scientific process works.

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    Re: Not Born This Way

    That two things are the same isn't proof that they are the same? There is nothing circumstantial about genetics. Two things are identical, or they aren't. And if they are, then any change that occurs is not caused by genetics, but by outside factors. Doesn't mean we know what those are.

    Again, don't just tell me that I am wrong. Address the specific case - two identical - monozygotic - twins who are genetically the same person, but of different sexualities. Since you do not accept it as proof of anything, it falls on YOU to explain why that is so. Why are they not proof?
    Last edited by Rolyo85; January 19th, 2013 at 12:05 AM.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by youfiad View Post
    I've heard you majored in Political science. I'm sorry to say, but that doesn't count as science studies. Me, I have years of biology, chemistry and physics studies behind me. I have worked on several research projects from molecular biology to aquatic toxicology and histological projects. Please, enlighten me as to how I don't know how the scientific process works.
    Wow here we go... now anyone can exaggerate their own background on the internet. I'm sorry to say but don't even try to fucking attack my education.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    That two things are the same isn't proof that they are the same? There is nothing circumstantial about genetics. Two things are identical, or they aren't. And if they are, then any change that occurs is not caused by genetics, but by outside factors. Doesn't mean we know what those are.
    That still does not prove the environmental argument... show some evidence it does. I don't believe mere words.

    Again, don't just tell me that I am wrong. Address the specific case - two identical - monozygotic - twins who are genetically the same person, but of different sexualities. Since you do not accept it as proof of anything, it falls on YOU to explain why that is so. Why are they not proof?
    Show proof of the claim first. Or else just more words. And I'm not making the claim that it is the case.

    Wow... this is like arguing whether god exists or not... I guess I need to prove that it doesn't exist.

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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Wow here we go... now anyone can exaggerate their own background on the internet. I'm sorry to say but don't even try to fucking attack my education.

    - - - Updated - - -



    That still does not prove the environmental argument... show some evidence it does. I don't believe mere words.
    Ohh please, Do you want me to send you picture of me in lab working? If I were to exagurate, I would have aimed a little higher than that. Your pathetic attempt at diverting away from reality shows your overall insecurity.

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    Re: Not Born This Way

    You respond too quickly. I edited. And I don't need to prove a PROOF. YOU have to tell me why it isn't proof.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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  47. #97
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by youfiad View Post
    Ohh please, Do you want me to send you picture of me in lab working? If I were to exagurate, I would have aimed a little higher than that. Your pathetic attempt at diverting away from reality shows your overall insecurity.
    Then don't fucking insult my education in a lame attempt to discredit me. Insecurity? Who was the one who brought up my background in the first place? Hypocrisy is never a good thing.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    You respond too quickly. I edited. And I don't need to prove a PROOF. YOU have to tell me why it isn't proof.
    I guess it's too hard for some to provide sources for their argument. I'm not asking for words, I am asking for proof... if you want me to admit I am mistaken.

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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Frankly, you don't make any sense at this point. You're thrashing frantically about, just throwing the words "proof" and "mere words", and "circumstantial claim", but you give no reason for why you don't agree, other than "it's just not true lalalalala". I asked you questions - answer them before you demand more proof.

    Again - I want YOUR explanation for why twins aren't a good proof.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  49. #99
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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolyo85 View Post
    Frankly, you don't make any sense at this point. You're thrashing frantically about, just throwing the words "proof" and "mere words", and "circumstantial claim", but you give no reason for why you don't agree, other than "it's just not true lalalalala". I asked you questions - answer them before you demand more proof.

    Again - I want YOUR explanation for why twins aren't a good proof.
    And you're not making any sense either. I have asked for links for your argument and I have yet to see any. I asked for the proof before and I haven't seen it. Your words are not proof.

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    Re: Not Born This Way

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    Then don't fucking insult my education in a lame attempt to discredit me. Insecurity? Who was the one who brought up my background in the first place? Hypocrisy is never a good thing.

    - - - Updated - - -




    I guess it's too hard for some to provide sources for their argument. I'm not asking for words, I am asking for proof... if you want me to admit I am mistaken.
    I'm not saying that your education was worthless, but when I say that I have more scientific education than you, that's something that I can readily prove. How many college credits have you taken? What sort of scientific research projects have you participated in?

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