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    New York State - First Out of the Gate on Gun Control Laws

    So at least Cuomo and the New York State Legislature aren't fucking around waiting for national discourse or for the country to become bored or distracted.

    New York lawmakers agreed to pass the toughest gun control law in the nation and the first since the Newtown, Conn., school shooting, calling for a stricter assault weapons ban and provisions to keep guns out of the hands of the mentally ill who make threats.

    "This is a scourge on society," Gov. Andrew Cuomo said Monday night, six days after making gun control a centerpiece of his agenda in his State of the State address. The bipartisan effort was fueled by the Newtown tragedy that took the lives of 20 first graders and six educators. "At what point do you say, `No more innocent loss of life'?"

    The measure also calls for restrictions on ammunition and the sale of guns. It is expected to pass Tuesday.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_2478418.html

    does anyone know which other states are in the process of enacting legislation?

  2. #2

    Re: New York State - First Out of the Gate on Gun Control Laws

    Good! Finally a start to what's been needed for years.

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    Re: New York State - First Out of the Gate on Gun Control Laws

    So here is what they are saying is in the bill, I'm not seeing anything that is really too objectionable, there are couple of things that will probably need clarifying in the courts.

    - Further restrict assault weapons to define them by a single feature, such as a pistol grip. Current law requires two features.

    Really most of the so called 'features' of assault weapons are just cosmetic. All this provision really is doing is expanding what the law applies to. The magazine requirement deals with the only real thing that needed addressing but it obvious they want the expand this to as many guns as they can.

    - Make the unsafe storage of assault weapons a misdemeanor.

    Not really any issue with this, its common sense as long as it the definition of 'unsafe' is reasonable AND it doesn't infringe on defensive use. Since most assault weapons are rifles, that not that much of an issue.

    - Mandate a police registry of assault weapons.

    I've never really had an issue with the idea of registering guns. Most objections to these requirements would be addressed by including wording that the registry cannot be used for a later confiscation program.

    - Establish a state registry for all private sales, with a background check done through a licensed dealer for a fee, excluding sales to immediate relatives.

    There will probably be some court challenge that this is creating a undue burden on lawful gun owners exercise of their rights but as long as the fees and process is not unreasonable.

    - Require a therapist who believes a mental health patient made a credible threat to use a gun illegally to report the threat to a mental health director who would then have to report serious threats to the state Department of Criminal Justice Services. A patient's gun could be confiscated.

    There is already a protest rising over this from the health community over concerns of patient's privacy rights. How the information is handled and the due process procedures are going to critical in applying this.

    - Ban the Internet sale of assault weapons.

    Reasonable I think.

    - Require stores that sell ammunition to register with the state, run background checks on buyers of bullets and keep an electronic database of bullet sales.

    Only real question about this, are they going to require you to do a check EVERY time you buy bullets? That would likely not stand a undue hindrance challenge in the courts. If they require the check the first time you buy at the store and then a reasonable recheck every so often that would be more reasonable.

    - Restrict ammunition magazines to seven bullets, from the current national standard of 10. Current owners of higher-capacity magazines would have a year to sell them out of state. Someone caught with eight or more bullets in a magazine could face a misdemeanor charge.

    Reasonable

    - Require that stolen guns be reported within 24 hours. Otherwise, the owner would face a possible misdemeanor.

    Reasonable

    - Increase sentences for gun crimes including for taking a gun on school property.

    Reasonable and likely one of the more effective parts

    - Increase penalties for shooting first responders, called the "Webster provision." Two firefighters were killed when shot by a person who set a fire in the western New York town of Webster last month. The crime would be punishable by life in prison without parole.

    Reasonable

    - Limit the state records law to protect handgun owners from being identified publicly. The provision would allow a handgun permit holder a means to maintain privacy under the Freedom of Information law.

    Reasonable

    - Require pistol permit holders or those who will be registered as owners of assault rifles to be recertified at least every five years to make sure they are still legally able to own the guns.

    Reasonable as long as the criteria is remains constant and there is a reasonable due process.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: New York State - First Out of the Gate on Gun Control Laws

    It is progress.

    As CowboyBob says, "It's a start."

    We have so much more to do. But, at last, someone has at least taken a step.

  5. #5
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    Re: New York State - First Out of the Gate on Gun Control Laws

    A much needed start to necessary stronger restrictions required in this country... but just a start.

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    Re: New York State - First Out of the Gate on Gun Control Laws

    It's good to see some action, but without nationwide commitments, many of these steps will be easily circumvented by a quick drive across state lines. The gun problem in the US is a national issue and needs to be addressed as such.

  7. #7
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    Re: New York State - First Out of the Gate on Gun Control Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by andysayshi View Post
    It's good to see some action, but without nationwide commitments, many of these steps will be easily circumvented by a quick drive across state lines. The gun problem in the US is a national issue and needs to be addressed as such.
    Absolutely. It's kinda how many people circumvent California gun control laws by driving to Nevada.

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    Re: New York State - First Out of the Gate on Gun Control Laws

    Reading the SPECIFICS as Stardreamer posted -- translates into a couple of uncomfortable thoughts...

    The PRISON industry must LOVE the MANDATORY prison sentences outlined...

    And -- the RECERTIFICATION EVERY 5 year is TOTALLY UNREASONABLE!!! FIVE years can go by REALLY FAST!!!

    And I haven't certified for almost TWENTY years -- I don't think I should HAVE to...

    To WHAT END???

    And how in the hell would it help anything???

    The kid in the shooting didn't OWN the gun -- his deceased mother did...

    I don't get it...

    "Whatever you do, or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius and power and magic in it..." Goethe

  9. #9
    GiancarloC
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    Re: New York State - First Out of the Gate on Gun Control Laws

    I think the five year guideline is absolutely reasonable and more than enough time. It's still vastly less restrictive than other western countries.

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    Re: New York State - First Out of the Gate on Gun Control Laws

    Let me pose a "what if"...

    What if DURING those 5 years -- OUR government decides that NO ONE should have a hand gun or assault rifle...

    You go to RENEW your 5 year license and are told to TURN OVER your guns...

    THEN we're left DEFENSELESS...

    And I'm not JUST talking about fighting back against an oppressive government -- SOME of us face REAL LIFE threats on a DAILY basis and NEED protection...

    GUNS are VERY useful for that need...

    I KNOW that it is that SLIPPERY SLOPE argument -- but POSSIBLE...

    "Whatever you do, or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius and power and magic in it..." Goethe

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    Re: New York State - First Out of the Gate on Gun Control Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    .

    - Restrict ammunition magazines to seven bullets, from the current national standard of 10. Current owners of higher-capacity magazines would have a year to sell them out of state. Someone caught with eight or more bullets in a magazine could face a misdemeanor charge.

    Reasonable

    [.
    Totally useless, especially when there is no armed resistance. A shooter with a large supply of magazines can eject a spent magazine and insert a full one in seconds.

  12. #12
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    Re: New York State - First Out of the Gate on Gun Control Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by andysayshi View Post
    It's good to see some action, but without nationwide commitments, many of these steps will be easily circumvented by a quick drive across state lines. The gun problem in the US is a national issue and needs to be addressed as such.
    Agreed completely. And likewise every single stat about how a local city or municipal ban on guns didn't lower gun crime is invalid as a source of any broad conclusion for that reason.

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    Re: New York State - First Out of the Gate on Gun Control Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by swerve View Post
    Let me pose a "what if"...

    What if DURING those 5 years -- OUR government decides that NO ONE should have a hand gun or assault rifle...

    You go to RENEW your 5 year license and are told to TURN OVER your guns...

    THEN we're left DEFENSELESS...

    And I'm not JUST talking about fighting back against an oppressive government -- SOME of us face REAL LIFE threats on a DAILY basis and NEED protection...

    GUNS are VERY useful for that need...

    I KNOW that it is that SLIPPERY SLOPE argument -- but POSSIBLE...

    Well one is they can't do that presently based on the current supreme court interpretations of the 2nd amendment right. I know some folks here who are unhappy with that interpretation like to say but the court has changed before but in reality it does not change that often and even when it does it is a LONG process. The same goes with repealing the 2nd amendment.

    The court and IMHO rightfully so has said that REASONABLE restrictions to gun ownership just like reasonable restrictions to free speech (liable, threats of violence, sedition) are possible.

    The one thing that BOTH sides of this debate shoot themselves in the foot (joke intended) here is instead of working to reach agreement and reasonable middle ground is to react to any progress towards reaching that middle ground in a way that just feeds the fuel of the other side's fears. Pro-gun advocates do this when they bring up slippery slope arguments in reactions to gun laws and anti-gun advocates do it when they say 'this is just the first step' in reaction to gun laws (therefore giving validation to the slippery slope fear). This language really needs to be abandoned by both sides with pro-gun folks admitting that regulation is necessary and anti-gun folks admitting that they aren't out to take everyone's guns away from them as long as they are using them in a responsible manner. We can never reach a reasonable middle ground as long as both sides fear the others ultimate goal is the extreme.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    auribus teneo lupum Stardreamer's Avatar
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    Re: New York State - First Out of the Gate on Gun Control Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    Totally useless, especially when there is no armed resistance. A shooter with a large supply of magazines can eject a spent magazine and insert a full one in seconds.
    I think a restriction on quick loading magazines would also be a reasonable restriction. The magazine is really what makes a military style weapon any more dangerous than any other long rifle.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: New York State - First Out of the Gate on Gun Control Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Agreed completely. And likewise every single stat about how a local city or municipal ban on guns didn't lower gun crime is invalid as a source of any broad conclusion for that reason.
    I always have problems with the logic, how can gun crime be higher in the restricted area but lower in the less restricted if the less restricted is the origin of the gun crime? Shouldn't they be the same? The only thing that comes to mind is the denying the law abiding use of guns is the deciding factor encouraging the criminals in the restricted area.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: New York State - First Out of the Gate on Gun Control Laws

    I'm NOT fighting the MIDDLE ground...

    I HATE seeing SENSELESS gun violence as much as anyone else...

    I just want a REASONABLE ability to DEFEND myself -- and what YOU considered reasonable in your earlier post -- I DID NOT find reasonable -- BUT, I'm willing to move...

    Are YOU???

    "Whatever you do, or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius and power and magic in it..." Goethe

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    Re: New York State - First Out of the Gate on Gun Control Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by swerve View Post
    What if DURING those 5 years -- OUR government decides that NO ONE should have a hand gun or assault rifle...

    You go to RENEW your 5 year license and are told to TURN OVER your guns...

    THEN we're left DEFENSELESS...
    Okay, let's say this "turn over" began happening on, hypothetically, July 1st 2016. Everybody whose 5 year license was due for renewal on 7/1/2016 has their guns confiscated.

    What do you suppose would happen throughout the US on July 2?

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    Re: New York State - First Out of the Gate on Gun Control Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon View Post
    Totally useless, especially when there is no armed resistance. A shooter with a large supply of magazines can eject a spent magazine and insert a full one in seconds.
    Jared Loughner was prevented from killing more people in Tucson when he was apprehended by unarmed civilians while pausing to change magazines.

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    Re: New York State - First Out of the Gate on Gun Control Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by swerve View Post
    I'm NOT fighting the MIDDLE ground...

    I HATE seeing SENSELESS gun violence as much as anyone else...

    I just want a REASONABLE ability to DEFEND myself -- and what YOU considered reasonable in your earlier post -- I DID NOT find reasonable -- BUT, I'm willing to move...

    Are YOU???

    Always, having recently looked (and posted a discussion about) the 2nd amendment and the court's interpretation of the right to self defense. I was considering it when I posted my initial analysis here. I don't see anything that would infringe on the right to self defense IF[!] these rules are applied consistently and with proper due process to ensure they aren't being used as a backdoor way to disarm law abiding citizens. Some of these will need to be tested out in court challenges to feel out those boundaries. The 5 year certification is something that will have to be watched with particular care but if it is applied consistently and with due process is not unreasonable.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: New York State - First Out of the Gate on Gun Control Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by andysayshi View Post
    Okay, let's say this "turn over" began happening on, hypothetically, July 1st 2016. Everybody whose 5 year license was due for renewal on 7/1/2016 has their guns confiscated.

    What do you suppose would happen throughout the US on July 2?
    Are you suggesting that INDEPENDENCE day would be MOVED to July 2???

    "Whatever you do, or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius and power and magic in it..." Goethe

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    Re: New York State - First Out of the Gate on Gun Control Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    I always have problems with the logic, how can gun crime be higher in the restricted area but lower in the less restricted if the less restricted is the origin of the gun crime? Shouldn't they be the same? The only thing that comes to mind is the denying the law abiding use of guns is the deciding factor encouraging the criminals in the restricted area.
    I think the interpretation I've always held is the most reasonable one. I'm not sure I'm right but it's what I believe to be correct.

    I think cities with substantial and rising violence problems are the ones most likely to get the support to pass bans or restrictions in the first place. And crime tends to spike or drop in patterns that are influenced by, but lag well behind, legislative or economic changes. We don't see "employment goes up and the very next day crime dipped." We see employment go up and then we see crime dip over a period of years afterwards. So when cities have passed gun restrictions, I think they did it because crime was on the rise, and the day after restrictions pass crime doesn't necessarily drop-- and it may never drop at all if tons of guns are already in tons of hands, and it may never drop if it's a simple matter of people driving 5 minutes out of city or county limits to pick up a gun.

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    Re: New York State - First Out of the Gate on Gun Control Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    I think the interpretation I've always held is the most reasonable one. I'm not sure I'm right but it's what I believe to be correct.

    I think cities with substantial and rising violence problems are the ones most likely to get the support to pass bans or restrictions in the first place. And crime tends to spike or drop in patterns that are influenced by, but lag well behind, legislative or economic changes. We don't see "employment goes up and the very next day crime dipped." We see employment go up and then we see crime dip over a period of years afterwards. So when cities have passed gun restrictions, I think they did it because crime was on the rise, and the day after restrictions pass crime doesn't necessarily drop-- and it may never drop at all if tons of guns are already in tons of hands, and it may never drop if it's a simple matter of people driving 5 minutes out of city or county limits to pick up a gun.
    You are EXACTLY right...

    Gun control resolutions will take TWENTY YEARS MINIMUM before REAL results are realized...

    It's just the nature of the beast...

    HOPEFULLY, MOST of us will be alive to SEE it...

    Last edited by swerve; January 15th, 2013 at 08:15 PM.
    "Whatever you do, or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius and power and magic in it..." Goethe

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    Re: New York State - First Out of the Gate on Gun Control Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by andysayshi View Post
    Okay, let's say this "turn over" began happening on, hypothetically, July 1st 2016. Everybody whose 5 year license was due for renewal on 7/1/2016 has their guns confiscated.

    What do you suppose would happen throughout the US on July 2?
    An international arms survey done out of Geneva every year found that in countries that initiated gun bans, most of the guns in the country are not turned in. They were looking at western nations that had enacted bans and found that the collection programs usually only gather less than 10% of the estimated guns in the country. Since searching people's homes in western democracies is not really a way to win re-election, the common reaction is for the government to update their estimates down by 90% and declare victory.

    But the US would have a tough time enacting a complete ban under our due process and civil protections. I pointed out once the government would have to reimburse the owners and who wants to submit THAT price tag to congress?
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: New York State - First Out of the Gate on Gun Control Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by andysayshi View Post
    Jared Loughner was prevented from killing more people in Tucson when he was apprehended by unarmed civilians while pausing to change magazines.
    But that doesn't equate to 'no resistance' does it.
    In most of the recent shootings, the victims were cowering, not fighting back.
    Which is why allowing teachers to carry arms in school might be a good idea.

    At that college in Virginia, had one of the students hiding behind a desk been able to produce a gun, the outcome might have been different. No, wait, the cowardly school officials had declared the campus to be a no gun zone.

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    Re: New York State - First Out of the Gate on Gun Control Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    I think the interpretation I've always held is the most reasonable one. I'm not sure I'm right but it's what I believe to be correct.

    I think cities with substantial and rising violence problems are the ones most likely to get the support to pass bans or restrictions in the first place. And crime tends to spike or drop in patterns that are influenced by, but lag well behind, legislative or economic changes. We don't see "employment goes up and the very next day crime dipped." We see employment go up and then we see crime dip over a period of years afterwards. So when cities have passed gun restrictions, I think they did it because crime was on the rise, and the day after restrictions pass crime doesn't necessarily drop-- and it may never drop at all if tons of guns are already in tons of hands, and it may never drop if it's a simple matter of people driving 5 minutes out of city or county limits to pick up a gun.
    But it also points out the issue is more complex than just how easy it is to get the guns.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: New York State - First Out of the Gate on Gun Control Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    Really most of the so called 'features' of assault weapons are just cosmetic. All this provision really is doing is expanding what the law applies to. The magazine requirement deals with the only real thing that needed addressing but it obvious they want the expand this to as many guns as they can.
    There is no such thing as a "cosmetic feature" in a firearm. Everything on a firearm is manufactured for a specific purpose. Now whether or not that purpose contributes to the amount of killing that firearm can do in a certain period of time can be argued, but the fact still exists that everything is made a certain way for a reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    I've never really had an issue with the idea of registering guns. Most objections to these requirements would be addressed by including wording that the registry cannot be used for a later confiscation program.
    If they're to a point where they're confiscating weapons based on the database, repealing the law preventing them from doing so won't be difficult.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    There is already a protest rising over this from the health community over concerns of patient's privacy rights. How the information is handled and the due process procedures are going to critical in applying this.
    I don't think this will be an issue since there are already reporting requirements for things like sexual abuse, violent threats, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    Only real question about this, are they going to require you to do a check EVERY time you buy bullets? That would likely not stand a undue hindrance challenge in the courts. If they require the check the first time you buy at the store and then a reasonable recheck every so often that would be more reasonable.
    I would assume that they would have to at least periodically run a new check just in case the database was updated to say they've bought too much or they are now a risk. Keep in mind, the 2nd amendment calls for a "well regulated militia" which has generally been interpreted to allow for certain processes that may be considered hindrances.

    I realize you may not be disagreeing, but that's just my input on what I see. I think these are actually very reasonable approaches to help tackle the issue and are a great deal more than has been done (and can be expected from) the do-nothing atmosphere in DC by some members of Congress.

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryReardon
    Totally useless, especially when there is no armed resistance. A shooter with a large supply of magazines can eject a spent magazine and insert a full one in seconds.
    A large supply of quickly accessible magazines (reload in under 10 seconds) is not easy to carry. In full tactical gear at training, I was only able to carry 6 additional easily accessible magazines. It's definitely a good start to have a shooter have easy access to 42 rounds of ammunition rather than 180 round of ammunition. It's would be nice for that shooter to not even have the gun to begin with, but we're not there yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by swerve
    Let me pose a "what if"...

    What if DURING those 5 years -- OUR government decides that NO ONE should have a hand gun or assault rifle...

    You go to RENEW your 5 year license and are told to TURN OVER your guns...

    THEN we're left DEFENSELESS...

    And I'm not JUST talking about fighting back against an oppressive government -- SOME of us face REAL LIFE threats on a DAILY basis and NEED protection...

    GUNS are VERY useful for that need...

    I KNOW that it is that SLIPPERY SLOPE argument -- but POSSIBLE...
    What if the government dropped a nuke on your house within those 5 years? Then, not only are you left defenseless, you're not left at all. The government possibly doing some highly unlikely activity is no reason to not try to do anything to mitigate the problems we have. There is nothing wrong with requiring the renewal of a license to make sure a) that you haven't gone batshit crazy and b) to make sure you still actually have access to that firearm and that it hasn't been stolen or you didn't sell it illegally.

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    Re: New York State - First Out of the Gate on Gun Control Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    But it also points out the issue is more complex than just how easy it is to get the guns.
    Well... if you mean the total volume of the topic of crime is more than just "guns", yes, of course. Many other things play a role. But when we talk about stopping how easy it is to go on this kind of spree killing, really only two relevant things come up imho. Mental health and easy access to firearms.

    Driving 5 minutes is still easy access to firearms imo.

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    Re: New York State - First Out of the Gate on Gun Control Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    What if the government dropped a nuke on your house within those 5 years? Then, not only are you left defenseless, you're not left at all. The government possibly doing some highly unlikely activity is no reason to not try to do anything to mitigate the problems we have. There is nothing wrong with requiring the renewal of a license to make sure a) that you haven't gone batshit crazy and b) to make sure you still actually have access to that firearm and that it hasn't been stolen or you didn't sell it illegally.
    Are you suggesting that the United States might drop a NUKE on Atlanta, Georgia???

    AND THEN worry about whether I've gone BAT SHIT CRAZY???

    "Whatever you do, or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius and power and magic in it..." Goethe

  29. #29

    Re: New York State - First Out of the Gate on Gun Control Laws

    Mental illness and the use of psychiatric drugs is still the reason for most mass shootings.

    These new laws would not have keep Sandy Hook from happening .. it's just more laws.

    WTF is going to report selling a gun between two people?

  30. #30
    GiancarloC
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    Re: New York State - First Out of the Gate on Gun Control Laws

    These laws will still reduce the amount of crimes committed with firearms. It's more of a general response. More guns isn't and never will be the answer.

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    Re: New York State - First Out of the Gate on Gun Control Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Mental illness and the use of psychiatric drugs is still the reason for most mass shootings.

    These new laws would not have keep Sandy Hook from happening .. it's just more laws.

    WTF is going to report selling a gun between two people?
    Yeah, that's a load of crap. Shootings need a gun to happen. The world is full of crazy people but only those with guns shoot others when their crazy explodes.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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    Re: New York State - First Out of the Gate on Gun Control Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Mental illness and the use of psychiatric drugs is still the reason for most mass shootings.
    a) Do you have a source link to verify that assertion?

    b) Is the correlation you reference dependent upon a condition of mental illness AND the use of psychiatric drugs, or is it simply a correlation that combines those two elements as one statistical component?

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    Re: New York State - First Out of the Gate on Gun Control Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    There is no such thing as a "cosmetic feature" in a firearm. Everything on a firearm is manufactured for a specific purpose. Now whether or not that purpose contributes to the amount of killing that firearm can do in a certain period of time can be argued, but the fact still exists that everything is made a certain way for a reason.
    The main thing that makes an 'assault weapon' any significantly more dangerous than any other semi-automatic rifle in the same caliber is the magazine capacity. Features that marginally improve your ability to handle the weapon or mount a bayonet (if you could find one) don't really add that much to their lethality.

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    If they're to a point where they're confiscating weapons based on the database, repealing the law preventing them from doing so won't be difficult.
    Legally it would be difficult to do under the current civil and due process requirements anyway. BUT making it clear in the law that its ultimate goal is not to take guns away from law abiding citizens would helpful in both oiling the waters AND resisting 2nd amendment challenges.

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    I don't think this will be an issue since there are already reporting requirements for things like sexual abuse, violent threats, etc.
    There is a reasonable concern that the law may be over zealously applied as HAS happened in those other cases you mentioned. Thus doctors are reasonable in voicing concern for their patient's sake. The limits of this will be tested in the courts which is only proper.

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    I would assume that they would have to at least periodically run a new check just in case the database was updated to say they've bought too much or they are now a risk. Keep in mind, the 2nd amendment calls for a "well regulated militia" which has generally been interpreted to allow for certain processes that may be considered hindrances.
    All rights are subject to 'reasonable' restrictions however when a restriction reaches the point that it serves more to prevent law abiding citizens from exercising their rights than anything else that is seen by the courts as an undue hindrance on the exercise of that right and can be overturned. Being able to purchase ammunition is essential to the exercise of a citizens right to use fire arms for self defense, if they are being unduly hindered from obtaining that ammunition by having to pay a fee to do a background check every time the go to the store that is likely not going to stand up in court. Requiring a recheck after a reasonable period would be more likely to pass muster.

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    I realize you may not be disagreeing, but that's just my input on what I see. I think these are actually very reasonable approaches to help tackle the issue and are a great deal more than has been done (and can be expected from) the do-nothing atmosphere in DC by some members of Congress.
    I'll admit my position is in the process of evolving on this. I agree these are actually more reasonable than I feared they might be and with due care are acceptable within context of the 2nd amendment right of self defense.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: New York State - First Out of the Gate on Gun Control Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Mental illness and the use of psychiatric drugs is still the reason for most mass shootings.

    These new laws would not have keep Sandy Hook from happening .. it's just more laws.

    WTF is going to report selling a gun between two people?
    Some truth though the mental health provisions might have made a difference as well as the magazine restrictions but the latter would only have influenced the body count not prevent it.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: New York State - First Out of the Gate on Gun Control Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Mental illness and the use of psychiatric drugs is still the reason for most mass shootings.
    Correlation (assuming you can actually produce some source showing a correlation) is not equal to causation. Plus, are you really stating that mental illness is the problem, but the medication used to treat the mental illness is also the problem?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    WTF is going to report selling a gun between two people?
    The "millions of law abiding guns owners who didn't shoot someone today". I mean law-abiding citizens obey the law right?

  36. #36

    Re: New York State - First Out of the Gate on Gun Control Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    a) Do you have a source link to verify that assertion?

    b) Is the correlation you reference dependent upon a condition of mental illness AND the use of psychiatric drugs, or is it simply a correlation that combines those two elements as one statistical component?
    The two recent mass murderers had mental illness problems and both were under the care of psychiatrists. It's easy and I think OK to make the assumption that the psychiatrists would prescribe drugs but because of HIPAA we don't know at the present time.

  37. #37

    Re: New York State - First Out of the Gate on Gun Control Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan482 View Post
    Correlation (assuming you can actually produce some source showing a correlation) is not equal to causation. Plus, are you really stating that mental illness is the problem, but the medication used to treat the mental illness is also the problem?

    BOTH

    The "millions of law abiding guns owners who didn't shoot someone today". I mean law-abiding citizens obey the law right?
    So when you smoke pot or exceed the posted speed limit do you turn yourself in to the local authorities?

  38. #38

    Re: New York State - First Out of the Gate on Gun Control Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    These laws will still reduce the amount of crimes committed with firearms. It's more of a general response. More guns isn't and never will be the answer.
    Did the old assault weapon ban decrease the mass murders? no

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    Re: New York State - First Out of the Gate on Gun Control Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Did the old assault weapon ban decrease the mass murders? no
    I think there was some impact in the case of mass murder spree killings but in the overall gun crime it had very little impact because very little gun crime is done with 'assault weapons'. They, like most long rifles, are not the weapon of choice for criminals because they are hard to conceal. Most gun crime involved hand guns. Spree killings are anomalies really in gun crime, events that are horrific but are actually quite rare. They get more coverage though because of their graphic nature.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

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    Re: New York State - First Out of the Gate on Gun Control Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    most mass shootings.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    The two recent mass murderers
    “Most” is materially different from “the two recent.”

  41. #41

    Re: New York State - First Out of the Gate on Gun Control Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by opinterph View Post
    “Most” is materially different from “the two recent.”
    Agree. I only gave an example of the last two.

    Here is a list of mass murders and prescription drugs used.

    http://ssristories.com/index.php?p=school

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    Re: New York State - First Out of the Gate on Gun Control Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by swerve View Post
    Reading the SPECIFICS as Stardreamer posted -- translates into a couple of uncomfortable thoughts...

    The PRISON industry must LOVE the MANDATORY prison sentences outlined...

    And -- the RECERTIFICATION EVERY 5 year is TOTALLY UNREASONABLE!!! FIVE years can go by REALLY FAST!!!

    And I haven't certified for almost TWENTY years -- I don't think I should HAVE to...

    To WHAT END???

    And how in the hell would it help anything???

    The kid in the shooting didn't OWN the gun -- his deceased mother did...

    I don't get it...

    It doesn't have to make sense. It doesn't even have to address the actual issues. The only point is so politicians can tell voters "We're doing something!" -- even if that something is counterproductive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    I always have problems with the logic, how can gun crime be higher in the restricted area but lower in the less restricted if the less restricted is the origin of the gun crime? Shouldn't they be the same? The only thing that comes to mind is the denying the law abiding use of guns is the deciding factor encouraging the criminals in the restricted area.
    Yes, they should be the same. If area A has free access to firearms and area B next door doesn't, and area B has a higher rate of firearms violence, then the problem lies in area B -- period.

    Quote Originally Posted by GiancarloC View Post
    These laws will still reduce the amount of crimes committed with firearms. It's more of a general response. More guns isn't and never will be the answer.
    The only thing that will have any impact on crime is the stiffer penalties.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

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    Re: New York State - First Out of the Gate on Gun Control Laws

    Hopefully the NRA will get a case to SCOTUS, and the justices will overturn the whole thing on the basis that authority to govern the militia is a power given to the federal government, not to the states.

    "Thirty-one* states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. "

    --Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000

    *the number is now forty

  44. #44

    Re: New York State - First Out of the Gate on Gun Control Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardreamer View Post
    I think there was some impact in the case of mass murder spree killings but in the overall gun crime it had very little impact because very little gun crime is done with 'assault weapons'. They, like most long rifles, are not the weapon of choice for criminals because they are hard to conceal. Most gun crime involved hand guns. Spree killings are anomalies really in gun crime, events that are horrific but are actually quite rare. They get more coverage though because of their graphic nature.
    The point is that honest people obey laws, crooks and murderers don't.

    I'd make a guess that most killings are between two people using handguns -- not assault weapons. Mass killings are too exciting to be missed by the media and most of the public. We should be focusing on the daily murders in our cities and suburbs.

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    Re: New York State - First Out of the Gate on Gun Control Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    It doesn't have to make sense. It doesn't even have to address the actual issues. The only point is so politicians can tell voters "We're doing something!" -- even if that something is counterproductive.
    Luckily, this isn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Yes, they should be the same. If area A has free access to firearms and area B next door doesn't, and area B has a higher rate of firearms violence, then the problem lies in area B -- period.
    Only if you can prove that the higher rate of firearms violence started AFTER the limitation of access, or even that it didn't go down (while still remaining higher than area A). Otherwise you're just comparing two areas with different firearms violence levels and proving nothing.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
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    Re: New York State - First Out of the Gate on Gun Control Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    The point is that honest people obey laws, crooks and murderers don't.

    I'd make a guess that most killings are between two people using handguns -- not assault weapons. Mass killings are too exciting to be missed by the media and most of the public. We should be focusing on the daily murders in our cities and suburbs.
    Whether you focus on the daily murders or the less frequent spree killing firearms are still equally part of the equation.

  47. #47
    GiancarloC
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    Re: New York State - First Out of the Gate on Gun Control Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Springer View Post
    Did the old assault weapon ban decrease the mass murders? no
    Swing and miss. Laws need to be stronger. The old ban had too many holes.

  48. #48
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    Re: New York State - First Out of the Gate on Gun Control Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    Hopefully the NRA will get a case to SCOTUS, and the justices will overturn the whole thing on the basis that authority to govern the militia is a power given to the federal government, not to the states.
    Think its to late for that, I think I read something in one of the opinions that the states had the right to implement reasonable restrictions.
    Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right. H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)

  49. #49

    Re: New York State - First Out of the Gate on Gun Control Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    Whether you focus on the daily murders or the less frequent spree killing firearms are still equally part of the equation.
    It's the actions of the user that need to curtailed. Bandaids will not work on a gunshot wound.

    New gun laws only help people feel good that they did something -- it will not stop the violence. After the new laws don't work -- they will want more laws. In the end the only people with guns will be the crooks and murderers.

  50. #50
    mitchymo
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    Re: New York State - First Out of the Gate on Gun Control Laws

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulindahr View Post
    If area A has free access to firearms and area B next door doesn't, and area B has a higher rate of firearms violence, then the problem lies in area B -- period.
    Making it sound like a fact (a la 'period'), does not make it a fact. One could just as easily summise that the gun availability in area A is providing criminals in area B a means to circumvent the law in area B, and that with less firearm deterrent, makes B an easier target, not just for criminals of area B, but for criminals of area A. There would potentially be a false representation of crime rising in area B whilst falling marginally in area A (as criminals like easier targets). Thus, the problem is area A, for allowing criminals access to firearms.



    The only thing that will have any impact on crime is the stiffer penalties.
    So, you think crime prevention is pointless???

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