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  1. #1
    JUB Addict RaKroma's Avatar
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    Aaron Swartz "Why I'm Not Gay"

    Until recently, men having sex with men was disapproved of in American culture. Actually, “disapproved of” isn’t really the right word — it was immoral, illegal, disgusting. People who did it lived in secrecy, under the constant threat of blackmail for their actions.

    In the tumult of the 1960s, various out-groups — blacks, Chicanos, Native Americans — begun organizing themselves and demanding to be respected and given their due. And men-who-had-sex-with-men decided that they were an out-group — they were gay — and they deserved rights too.

    In doing so, they transformed an action (having relationships with someone of the same gender) into an identity (“being gay”). And, using the normal human mechanisms for distinguishing between people in your club and those not in it, they closed ranks. Gay men didn’t have sex with women. Those who did weren’t gay, they were “bi” (which became a whole new identity in itself) — or probably just lying to themselves. And straight men had to be on constant guard against being attracted to other men — if they were, it meant that deep down, they were actually gay.

    This new gay identity was projected back through history — famous historical figures were “outed” as gay, because they’d once taken lovers of their own gender. They truly were gay underneath, it was said — it was just a homophobic society that forced them to appear to like the opposite sex.

    Along with the identity went an attempt at justification. Being gay wasn’t “a choice,” they argued — it was innate. Some people were just born gay and others weren’t. To a culture that tried to “correct” gay people into being straight, they insisted that correction was impossible — they just weren’t wired this way. (They even provided a ridiculous genetic explanation for how a species with a small percentage gay people might evolve.)

    This might have been a good thing to say — maybe even necessary in such a homophobic culture — but in the end it has to be seen as simply wrong. Having sex with other people of your gender isn’t an identity, it’s an act. And, like sex in general among consenting adults, people should be able to do it if they want to. Having sex with someone shouldn’t require an identity crisis. (Nobody sees having-sex-with-white-people as part of their identity, even if that’s primarily who they’re attracted to.)

    People shouldn’t be forced to categorize themselves as “gay,” “straight,” or “bi.” People are just people. Maybe you’re mostly attracted to men. Maybe you’re mostly attracted to women. Maybe you’re attracted to everyone. These are historical claims — not future predictions. If we truly want to expand the scope of human freedom, we should encourage people to date who they want; not just provide more categorical boxes for them to slot themselves into. A man who has mostly dated men should be just as welcome to date women as a woman who’s mostly dated men.

    So that’s why I’m not gay. I hook up with people. I enjoy it. Sometimes they’re men, sometimes they’re women. I don’t see why it needs to be any more complicated than that. http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/notgay
    I'm not sure how to interpret this line of thinking. But he was one of the few "post gay movement" guys who don't want to identify with sexual orientations as part prescribed social identities.
    I didn't know this fellow before his suicide past week. It was mentioned that he lived with a girlfriend. I'm just curious if he was openly involved with gay communities?

  2. #2
    JohannBessler
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    Re: Aaron Swartz "Why I'm Not Gay"

    He had the right to his own opinion, but I have trouble agreeing with it, because it throws millions of Gay/Lesbian victims under the bus in one fell swoop.

  3. #3
    The gay gargoyle
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    Re: Aaron Swartz "Why I'm Not Gay"

    People get really hung up on "labels", especially when it comes to sexuality. I never considered "gay" to mean anything more than a real basic signifier - "I dig guys". I don't think "gay" states anything more than that. I never felt that meant I couldn't ever be attracted to a woman sometime down the road.

    Lex

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    WTF????? refujiunderground's Avatar
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    Re: Aaron Swartz "Why I'm Not Gay"

    i KNEW just by looking @ his photos and seeing an interview with him that he wasn't straight. well, guess this is proof. so it wouldn't surprise me IF the stress of dealing with his sexuality and possibly suffering from depression on top of that along with him facing all that prison time for some bullshit that that drove him over the edge. people don't realize how the stress of accepting your sexual orientation if it is against the norm can break someone down.

    someone said this awhile back and i think it's VERY true. around the mid 20s like 25 or 26, a guy that is in the closet, WILL eventually face the music with himself. maybe this pushed him towards his breaking point. still tragic to say the least. with the whole labeling thing, there is NO clear cut definition to "straight", "gay, "pansexual", "bisexual", "ambisexual", "biromantic" or whatever. when someone says that they're gay, they are NOT breaking down what percentage of gay they are in specific terms. there is no way they can do that. same thing with bisexual. you can jerk off to men and women, have sex with both men and women and be gay because your romantic feelings are aimed towards men. there is no 50/50 split on it. you like males and females. i think when we call ourselves straight, gay, and bisexual, we're just saying where we lay on the sexual orientation scale. a label isn't an EXACT definition of who we are. i feel that when people disregard a label, they are ashamed of being identified as it is. they are taking the truth to heart and they can't deal with it because it makes them uncomfortable. they can't deal with it for what it is. you can sleep with both genders if you want. at some point, you're going to have to deal with it for what it is. to deny the name to what you're doing is called denial and he probably was going through that.

    i also wouldn't dismiss the possibility that he may have been murdered too. nobody knows.
    one thing about the closet/you don't have to hurry/it will be bad tomorrow/so brother, don't you worry

  5. #5
    JohannBessler
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    Re: Aaron Swartz "Why I'm Not Gay"

    ^I agree, rj

    I also agree with the idea that, at sometime around the 25th birthday, one must face his sexual orientation, because it happened to me, too, at about that age.

    When I turned 25, I, too, went through a crisis involving religion vs sexual orientation. I decided that the religion must go, and for a while, I unfortunately began to hate Christians with a seething passion.

    I note that Mr. Schwartz wrote his commentary quite a few years ago, sometime during his 19th or 20th year. I don't think he would have written the exact same article today, because his opinion on the matter would have evolved.

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    Re: Aaron Swartz "Why I'm Not Gay"

    Can someone bold the important parts or sum this up please

    Is Aaron Swartz a ghey but he is not identifying as the other good sisters? Like those geighs who don't like the ghey "scene" or hate feminine geighs? That's what I'm getting from the replies.


    Lemme do a google search

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    WTF????? refujiunderground's Avatar
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    Re: Aaron Swartz "Why I'm Not Gay"

    Quote Originally Posted by JohannBessler View Post
    ^I agree, rj

    I also agree with the idea that, at sometime around the 25th birthday, one must face his sexual orientation, because it happened to me, too, at about that age.

    When I turned 25, I, too, went through a crisis involving religion vs sexual orientation. I decided that the religion must go, and for a while, I unfortunately began to hate Christians with a seething passion.

    I note that Mr. Schwartz wrote his commentary quite a few years ago, sometime during his 19th or 20th year. I don't think he would have written the exact same article today, because his opinion on the matter would have evolved.
    there was a guy that said it on another forum. he hit the nail on the head creepily enough. dunno where he's at now. hope he's okay because he had a bad heroin problem and was worrying about getting hiv. he was a really smart dude though.

    dude sounds like a closet case to tell you the truth. nyc is full of them.
    one thing about the closet/you don't have to hurry/it will be bad tomorrow/so brother, don't you worry

  8. #8
    JUB Addict DigitalFudge's Avatar
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    Re: Aaron Swartz "Why I'm Not Gay"

    Wait. He's dead.


    Wait this is the reddit guy.


    Wait. He's cute








    So that’s why I’m not gay. I hook up with people. I enjoy it. Sometimes they’re men, sometimes they’re women.


    He was a slut, nevermind

  9. #9
    WTF????? refujiunderground's Avatar
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    Re: Aaron Swartz "Why I'm Not Gay"

    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalFudge View Post
    Wait. He's dead.


    Wait this is the reddit guy.


    Wait. He's cute




    would it make much of a difference if he wasn't?
    one thing about the closet/you don't have to hurry/it will be bad tomorrow/so brother, don't you worry

  10. #10
    JohannBessler
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    Re: Aaron Swartz "Why I'm Not Gay"

    ^I wonder if his sexual identity led, in part, to his tragic decision.

    I think bisexuals have it the worst. I thank the ^ everyday that I don't qualify as a bisexual, because I see it as a curse.

  11. #11
    Is the King of JUB Beachguyj's Avatar
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    Re: Aaron Swartz "Why I'm Not Gay"

    who the fuck is he?
    Never cease to find it strange
    How at midnight things seem hopeless
    But by dawn they've changed

  12. #12

    Re: Aaron Swartz "Why I'm Not Gay"

    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalFudge View Post
    Wait. He's dead.

    Wait this is the reddit guy.

    Wait. He's cute



    He was slut a, nevermind

    Dunno who he is, but I had to Google him... He IS cute!

    http://www.justusboys.com/forum/signaturepics/sigpic216959_1.gif

  13. #13
    Are u haleloo ya ? Telstra's Avatar
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    Re: Aaron Swartz "Why I'm Not Gay"

    People use labels all the time.
    How else would you describe a person's sexual orientation then?


    NEVER LISTEN TO A ONE SIDED STORY AND JUDGE.

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    JUB Addict DigitalFudge's Avatar
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    Re: Aaron Swartz "Why I'm Not Gay"

    Quote Originally Posted by refujiunderground View Post
    would it make much of a difference if he wasn't?


    The difference it would have made is in my original post I would of stopped at "Wait this is the reddit guy"


    Quote Originally Posted by Beachguyj View Post
    who the fuck is he?

    Quote Originally Posted by borg69unimatrix View Post
    Dunno who he is, but I had to Google him... He IS cute!


    NAWT with us all needing receipts


    Quote Originally Posted by Telstra View Post
    People use labels all the time.
    How else would you describe a person's sexual orientation then?


    These sexual hipsters want to go around and fuck the same sex but not have to deal with what us gays deal with.


    Bastards.


    U a geigh, u will deal.

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    Re: Aaron Swartz "Why I'm Not Gay"

    he a drink tea or not a tea? may a upsettin news a world tea folk or make tea folk supa powers ans take ova world

    anyway

    thankyou
    no sir ya no drink it a fa ya balls
    "ooh"tere a go now evary 1 weedy next course?

  16. #16
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: Aaron Swartz "Why I'm Not Gay"

    Quote Originally Posted by Telstra View Post
    People use labels all the time.
    How else would you describe a person's sexual orientation then?
    If I get the gist of what he's saying correctly-- his whole point is that 500 years ago you would not have.

    It's only modern people who would talk about some Roman general and say he was "gay" because he had male partners. People of the time said no such thing nor assigned him a special identity over it.

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    Oranje rareboy's Avatar
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    Re: Aaron Swartz "Why I'm Not Gay"

    Quote Originally Posted by RaKroma View Post
    I'm not sure how to interpret this line of thinking. But he was one of the few "post gay movement" guys who don't want to identify with sexual orientations as part prescribed social identities.
    I didn't know this fellow before his suicide past week. It was mentioned that he lived with a girlfriend. I'm just curious if he was openly involved with gay communities?

    Well there is a big difference between being gay and being a homosexual.

    Perhaps he was wired to stick his cock into anything that moved. He could be bisexuall or omni-sexual.

    But when I read his screed, all I see is someone who was equating sex acts with identity.

    It isn't where you put your cock. It is also about where you put your heart and soul.

    I also see another semi-closeted homo who, as someone else has noted, basically has thrown millions of gay kids under the bus by implying that there is no identity issue involved.

    He might have thought he was clever, but all I see at the end of the day is a confused and sad young man.

    Requiescat in Pace.

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    Oranje rareboy's Avatar
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    Re: Aaron Swartz "Why I'm Not Gay"

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    If I get the gist of what he's saying correctly-- his whole point is that 500 years ago you would not have.

    It's only modern people who would talk about some Roman general and say he was "gay" because he had male partners. People of the time said no such thing nor assigned him a special identity over it.
    What he is missing is that many of these historical figures were branded as sodomites and behaviourally perverse and sinful 500 years ago.

    One finds that even in ancient Rome and Greece...there was a distinction made between the man who took a catamite while he also had a wife...versus the lascivious and exclusively homosexual figures of their day. Again. I think today, that most often the Roman General might be described as a bi-sexual...or a homosexual who was contractually bound to a woman for the purposes of property and children.
    Last edited by rareboy; January 14th, 2013 at 02:20 PM.

  19. #19
    Are u haleloo ya ? Telstra's Avatar
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    Re: Aaron Swartz "Why I'm Not Gay"

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    If I get the gist of what he's saying correctly-- his whole point is that 500 years ago you would not have.

    It's only modern people who would talk about some Roman general and say he was "gay" because he had male partners. People of the time said no such thing nor assigned him a special identity over it.
    But i don't think 500 years ago was as good as today.


    NEVER LISTEN TO A ONE SIDED STORY AND JUDGE.

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    Re: Aaron Swartz "Why I'm Not Gay"

    I strongly disagree with his viewpoint. Labels have the purpose of identifying traits that, to a greater or lesser extent (and regardless of whether people like it or not), define our identity both as social beings and individuals. Sexual orientation hasn't been a sensitive issue in Western societies due to a sexually repressive Judeo-Christian religious tradition, that views sex as a purely functional act that ought to be devoid of any pleasure, because pleasure eludes to freedom and the disruption of social mores. In Ancient Greece and Rome, homosexuality itself was seen as something odd, and men were expected to engage in relationships with either youths or men of an inferior category as part of a dominant/subservient exercise of parental control. Truly homosexual men (i.e. those who exclusively wanted to engage in relationships with other grown men), were spoken of with extreme derision and ridiculed as freaks. Even in the more "accepting" Oriental societies like China or India, purely homosexual behaviour was seen as unnatural, and same sex relationships were only tolerable as accessories to the healthy sexual appetites of powerful men.

    Consequently, gay people have always been outsiders (even women, who were also severely punished for being gay). We haven't excluded ourselves from society and asked to be seen as a unique community exclusively defined by our sexual orientation. In fact, we have had to build our own community as a response to the brutal rejection and violence that we've always faced from the rest of society, which deems us anomalous just because we do are not capable of complying with the patriarchal view of sexuality as both an economic and military need, and an exercise of male dominance over lesser beings. Which leads to the next point: men have always been terrified of same sex desire, because they perceive it as feminizing and thus, a compromise of their masculine superiority. Homophobia is rooted in misogyny and an absurd and irrational contempt for women and the qualities they embody; not in the byproducts of the 1960's Sexual Liberation movement which, as a product of Feminism, sought to lend a voice and give representation to the voiceless, oppressed and ignored. If men don't want to be gay and are ashamed of being homo or bisexual, it's because of their inability to emotionally deal with their own subconscious virulent prejudices about the nature of femininity, not because a hypothetical "gay establishment" is forcing them into adopting any particular identity against their will. In short, they are the ones who are f*cked up, not the rest of us who accept ourselves as we are, and are willing to try to live as healthily and happily as possible as gay people.

    This ridiculous notion that every concept must be challenged if it doesn't suit your very personal needs at any point in time that Post-Structuralism promoted, has done more harm than good: it has given people the ability to present arguments against not only social phenomena, but the human condition itself, just because they are incapable of accepting reality as it is, and feel that they are entitled to creating their own lexicon, to define their own rules. Well, no: labels have a function and they are meant to give information devoid of any moral qualities in itself. However, if certain individuals feel threatened by other people's (and their own) judgements, that doesn't mean that the entire semantics of our current modes of communication ought to be changed. Going to therapy to deal with their demons would be better than trying to demonize labels - and the people who both accept and understand their ductility.

  21. #21
    CE&P Secret Police xbuzzerx's Avatar
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    Re: Aaron Swartz "Why I'm Not Gay"

    ^ So creating labels which we insist everyone use has done more good than harm? Flipping your argument around?

    I doubt racialized minorities would agree.

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    Re: Aaron Swartz "Why I'm Not Gay"

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    ^ So creating labels which we insist everyone use has done more good than harm? Flipping your argument around?

    I doubt racialized minorities would agree.
    So how would you describe a str8 man?

    Beefy buffy sex addict ??


    NEVER LISTEN TO A ONE SIDED STORY AND JUDGE.

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    Re: Aaron Swartz "Why I'm Not Gay"

    Quote Originally Posted by Telstra View Post
    So how would you describe a str8 man?

    Beefy buffy sex addict ??
    It's not about what I personally would list off as far as stereotypes surrounding a label. It was a fundamental question of people are basically reacting saying "no, the author is wrong when he tries to get out of a label." Which is almost the opposite of what gay people would argue any other time when labels are used against us.

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    Re: Aaron Swartz "Why I'm Not Gay"

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    It's not about what I personally would list off as far as stereotypes surrounding a label. It was a fundamental question of people are basically reacting saying "no, the author is wrong when he tries to get out of a label." Which is almost the opposite of what gay people would argue any other time when labels are used against us.
    There are good labels and bad labels.
    Nothing to argue about really.

    You can't stop labeling people all together, that would be a mess.


    NEVER LISTEN TO A ONE SIDED STORY AND JUDGE.

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    Re: Aaron Swartz "Why I'm Not Gay"

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrusek81 View Post
    I strongly disagree with his viewpoint. Labels have the purpose of identifying traits that, to a greater or lesser extent (and regardless of whether people like it or not), define our identity both as social beings and individuals. Sexual orientation hasn't been a sensitive issue in Western societies due to a sexually repressive Judeo-Christian religious tradition, that views sex as a purely functional act that ought to be devoid of any pleasure, because pleasure eludes to freedom and the disruption of social mores. In Ancient Greece and Rome, homosexuality itself was seen as something odd, and men were expected to engage in relationships with either youths or men of an inferior category as part of a dominant/subservient exercise of parental control. Truly homosexual men (i.e. those who exclusively wanted to engage in relationships with other grown men), were spoken of with extreme derision and ridiculed as freaks. Even in the more "accepting" Oriental societies like China or India, purely homosexual behaviour was seen as unnatural, and same sex relationships were only tolerable as accessories to the healthy sexual appetites of powerful men.

    Consequently, gay people have always been outsiders (even women, who were also severely punished for being gay). We haven't excluded ourselves from society and asked to be seen as a unique community exclusively defined by our sexual orientation. In fact, we have had to build our own community as a response to the brutal rejection and violence that we've always faced from the rest of society, which deems us anomalous just because we do are not capable of complying with the patriarchal view of sexuality as both an economic and military need, and an exercise of male dominance over lesser beings. Which leads to the next point: men have always been terrified of same sex desire, because they perceive it as feminizing and thus, a compromise of their masculine superiority. Homophobia is rooted in misogyny and an absurd and irrational contempt for women and the qualities they embody; not in the byproducts of the 1960's Sexual Liberation movement which, as a product of Feminism, sought to lend a voice and give representation to the voiceless, oppressed and ignored. If men don't want to be gay and are ashamed of being homo or bisexual, it's because of their inability to emotionally deal with their own subconscious virulent prejudices about the nature of femininity, not because a hypothetical "gay establishment" is forcing them into adopting any particular identity against their will. In short, they are the ones who are f*cked up, not the rest of us who accept ourselves as we are, and are willing to try to live as healthily and happily as possible as gay people.

    This ridiculous notion that every concept must be challenged if it doesn't suit your very personal needs at any point in time that Post-Structuralism promoted, has done more harm than good: it has given people the ability to present arguments against not only social phenomena, but the human condition itself, just because they are incapable of accepting reality as it is, and feel that they are entitled to creating their own lexicon, to define their own rules. Well, no: labels have a function and they are meant to give information devoid of any moral qualities in itself. However, if certain individuals feel threatened by other people's (and their own) judgements, that doesn't mean that the entire semantics of our current modes of communication ought to be changed. Going to therapy to deal with their demons would be better than trying to demonize labels - and the people who both accept and understand their ductility.
    go read it

    anyway

    thankyou
    no sir ya no drink it a fa ya balls
    "ooh"tere a go now evary 1 weedy next course?

  26. #26
    The gay gargoyle
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    Re: Aaron Swartz "Why I'm Not Gay"

    Quote Originally Posted by refujiunderground View Post
    would it make much of a difference if he wasn't?
    No one would give a good goddamn if he wasn't.

    Lex

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    Re: Aaron Swartz "Why I'm Not Gay"

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    ^ So creating labels which we insist everyone use has done more good than harm? Flipping your argument around?

    I doubt racialized minorities would agree.
    Actually, yes. Labels define identities, and racial and ethnic minorities are defined according to the historical context that preceded them - which doesn't justify discrimination and violence. We are what we are whether we like it or not. However, fighting for our rights and to have out collective experience as minority communities validated by wider society, does not exclude accepting the primary meaning of the labels that define us. Language is a vehicle for power and, as such, we can use it to our own advantage by internalizing it and integrating it to our own experience.

    Also, every adjective is a label, and every label has a range of meanings, and potential reactions. Take Christian people, for instance. Often, within the same congregation, there will be people with extremely different views on what Christianity represents. Should that be a reason for them to start rejecting the label and whine endlessly about how damaging it has been to them? Labels provide general, aleatory meanings that are open ended enough for people to elaborate further, if they want to do so. Just because some individuals have a hard time accepting that they are different themselves, and don't like that little fact, doesn't mean that we ought to invalidate language itself to suit their self-pitying. More specifically, labels linked to sexual orientation define general behaviours - whether people like it or not. If you are a homo, bi, hetero or asexual person, that's just what you are. Other people's prejudices shouldn't condition the meaning of that.

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    Re: Aaron Swartz "Why I'm Not Gay"

    ya missin sumthang ans etc

    but anyway thankyou
    no sir ya no drink it a fa ya balls
    "ooh"tere a go now evary 1 weedy next course?

  29. #29
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    Re: Aaron Swartz "Why I'm Not Gay"

    Not wanting to label yourself doesn't mean you can't be labeled.

    Look up gay and bi in the dictionary... if the description fits you then you are. You might not want to refer to yourself as gay or bi, but you still are.

  30. #30

    Re: Aaron Swartz "Why I'm Not Gay"

    Quote Originally Posted by Laufey View Post
    ...Look up gay and bi in the dictionary... if the description fits you then you are. You might not want to refer to yourself as gay or bi, but you still are.
    My definition of 'bi' is that you put your penis in females regularly. I know lots of 'bi' guys don't like that definition. And that includes LilBit.

  31. #31
    nf fbt funw glbhuof gmhp SLOPPYSECONDS's Avatar
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    Re: Aaron Swartz "Why I'm Not Gay"

    how a folk label gay wen folk no idea wot gay is?
    ans bi be anythang out fa fart durin office hours

    planet wot goin now still many many centurys all in 1 day play out

    not a jot changin but folk make lot words expalin wot right front noses

    anyway

    was nice

    thankyou
    no sir ya no drink it a fa ya balls
    "ooh"tere a go now evary 1 weedy next course?

  32. #32
    The gay gargoyle
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    Re: Aaron Swartz "Why I'm Not Gay"

    Does it also include putting your penis in male asses regularly? Or having male penises put into your ass regularly?

    Lex

  33. #33

    Re: Aaron Swartz "Why I'm Not Gay"

    ^ yes, I almost got this man on Sunday night. We've met up four times now. We've done a knee-trembler but I haven't got him into bed yet

  34. #34
    The gay gargoyle
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    Re: Aaron Swartz "Why I'm Not Gay"

    What the fuck is his problem?

    Lex

  35. #35

    Re: Aaron Swartz "Why I'm Not Gay"

    ^ there's no problem. We both know it will happen. I'm not keen on one-night-stands and neither of us are deluding ourselves or responding to peer-group pressure.

  36. #36
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    Re: Aaron Swartz "Why I'm Not Gay"

    Quote Originally Posted by SLOPPYSECONDS View Post
    he a drink tea or not a tea? may a upsettin news a world tea folk or make tea folk supa powers ans take ova world

    anyway

    thankyou
    *thinks... "Damn, he's on to us... must convene the cabal"*

  37. #37
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    Re: Aaron Swartz "Why I'm Not Gay"

    Yeah, OK, Patsy - whatever you say.

    Lex

  38. #38

    Re: Aaron Swartz "Why I'm Not Gay"

    fair enough

  39. #39
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    Re: Aaron Swartz "Why I'm Not Gay"

    Quote Originally Posted by Pianist View Post
    *thinks... "Damn, he's on to us... must convene the cabal"*
    no worry great piles a universtys wipe shoe ans dat me silenced

    ha

    *sniff? *
    ^ it nothin ^
    * ooh back ta papa dressin *
    ^ nah it no suit ya ^
    * ooh ans like da color *

    ha
    no sir ya no drink it a fa ya balls
    "ooh"tere a go now evary 1 weedy next course?

  40. #40
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    Re: Aaron Swartz "Why I'm Not Gay"

    Yeah, you SAY no worry...

    *continues with cabal convening*

  41. #41
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    Re: Aaron Swartz "Why I'm Not Gay"

    da tea post neva harppan POOFS
    may or may a nots assit a dude call potta ans bit a swishins
    * not here *

    anyway labels a thang

    is alway great folk make type

    cum on viewers it ya chanceys while complent porn gallerys ans da gay porn ans fetishkink forums ans gay storys forums ans etc so on - wen ya no busy doins it of o course

    so where da topic? is follwins it waitin fa sumone type sumthang a KOOL wot free anytime on planet earth were eva

    thankyou
    no sir ya no drink it a fa ya balls
    "ooh"tere a go now evary 1 weedy next course?

  42. #42
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    Re: Aaron Swartz "Why I'm Not Gay"

    Quote Originally Posted by Telstra View Post
    There are good labels and bad labels.
    Nothing to argue about really.

    You can't stop labeling people all together, that would be a mess.
    But we're talking about looking at someone's behavior or whatever else and assigning them a label they personally don't want. That's something this forum would chafe at in other contexts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrusek81 View Post
    Actually, yes. Labels define identities, and racial and ethnic minorities are defined according to the historical context that preceded them - which doesn't justify discrimination and violence. We are what we are whether we like it or not. However, fighting for our rights and to have out collective experience as minority communities validated by wider society, does not exclude accepting the primary meaning of the labels that define us. Language is a vehicle for power and, as such, we can use it to our own advantage by internalizing it and integrating it to our own experience.

    Also, every adjective is a label, and every label has a range of meanings, and potential reactions. Take Christian people, for instance. Often, within the same congregation, there will be people with extremely different views on what Christianity represents. Should that be a reason for them to start rejecting the label and whine endlessly about how damaging it has been to them? Labels provide general, aleatory meanings that are open ended enough for people to elaborate further, if they want to do so. Just because some individuals have a hard time accepting that they are different themselves, and don't like that little fact, doesn't mean that we ought to invalidate language itself to suit their self-pitying. More specifically, labels linked to sexual orientation define general behaviours - whether people like it or not. If you are a homo, bi, hetero or asexual person, that's just what you are. Other people's prejudices shouldn't condition the meaning of that.
    There's a fundamental difference between "what people are" and how they choose to identify which will always come down to the individual, and telling someone "here's your label, deal with it." Do you think the Irish chose to be considered "nonwhite" in the 19th century?

  43. #43

    Re: Aaron Swartz "Why I'm Not Gay"

    ^

    are you speaking metaphorically?

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    ..... the Irish chose to be considered "nonwhite"...
    Lots of Irish tenants suffered in the potato famine and were pushed off their land and chose to emigrate to the USA.


  44. #44
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    Re: Aaron Swartz "Why I'm Not Gay"

    people< wot is dat word anyway
    but all people no include but a call people?
    adjust fa land culture time century next door etc so on woteva

    hu man confused or not is not a question got make eva cause
    default is >>> obvious fa eons
    wot is default? not include everyone cause
    but folk luv say EVERYONE

    ans india china usa uk france ans SSSSH"
    noooooo?
    SSSSSSH"
    wanna go play golf on moon ans mars but

    tea was not say SSSSH"
    gonna get it now

    please carry forward is most interest read

    thankyou
    no sir ya no drink it a fa ya balls
    "ooh"tere a go now evary 1 weedy next course?

  45. #45
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    Re: Aaron Swartz "Why I'm Not Gay"

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    But we're talking about looking at someone's behavior or whatever else and assigning them a label they personally don't want. That's something this forum would chafe at in other contexts.
    My general theory is that you can call yourself whatever you want, but you can't dictate what OTHERS call you. I can insist that I do NOT own a car - I own a four-wheel motorcycle with enclosed seating compartment. I can also insist that others call it a four-wheel motorcycle with enclosed seating compartment, and deride those who talk about my "car" as Philistines of the first order that insist on labelling everything. But most people would probably think I had a couple screws loose.

    Got a thing for the opposite gender? Straight.
    Got a thing for the same gender? Gay.
    Got a thing for both genders? Bisexual.

    Does these words tell the whole story? Not even close. But that doesn't mean they don't come in handy.

    Lex

  46. #46
    Impish and Mercurial Rolyo85's Avatar
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    Re: Aaron Swartz "Why I'm Not Gay"

    Ok, some points:

    1. As far as "in the past", just because ancient, medieval or even Victorian era cultures didn't have a specified concept of homosexuality, doesn't mean homosexuality didn't exist. Frankly, most of those didn't have a specified concept of diseases, weather patterns or gravity, but that doesn't mean that those didn't exist until someone explained and labeled them. People in those ages were just as bisexual, gay or heterosexual, whether they thought in those terms or not (which yes, they didn't).

    2. As usual, people mistake a label with its most stereotypical, cliched and narrow definition. Being called "gay" means nothing more than the very broad concept of "you prefer your own gender emotionally and sexually". It's not even exclusive. In fact, the three categories of straight, gay and bisexual are so broad, that they can fit all the laughable sub-categories tweens love to invent while in undergrad.

    3. I find the whole "men having sex with men" school of thought vile and repulsive. Because it implies that sexuality is just about sex, and so sexual identity is pointless. Neither is true. I CAN NOT be romantically attracted to a woman any more than I can be physically attracted to her. A gay/homosexual person could not form a lasting romantic bond with the opposite gender. Which informs practically everything about our lives. To make it just about sex is en par with the Christianist hate groups' arguments about us.
    That we are capable only of being what we are, remains our unforgivable sin.
    - Gene Wolfe

  47. #47
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    Re: Aaron Swartz "Why I'm Not Gay"

    Not so sure about labels but here's my train of though...if you can have sex with a guy,you are attracted to them,like it or not.

  48. #48
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    Re: Aaron Swartz "Why I'm Not Gay"

    as say 1st world is not a possubll deal wit wot do cause default is alls barkin loons stuckin so much crap

    clinton of a female mrs say or any of a male President Mr say
    hole planet jump oh good y change foot steps

    begin of 21 st century wot a spit of nothin in time start off full a crap
    noone deal wit queen victoria knickurs or a did casear wear condom?
    or Zulu invent democracy or not ans why snot look likes a wot lot folk eat from russia ta portugal fa eons
    until great emperors kings sultans warrior chiefs etc so on etc discova it may make um liv fa 10000 yrs
    ans now snot cost 1000 rupee a gram

    anyway

    wot (1st world)<limite club> not deal wit may a good start as avoid deal wit fa eons at end a day is no need
    if
    but if so far far far fa rfa rf ar far fafafafafafafa away
    sumdude make star wars wit teddy bears

    anyway

    fairys is alls a hope 1st world get it< in nice way
    - waits -

    thankyou
    no sir ya no drink it a fa ya balls
    "ooh"tere a go now evary 1 weedy next course?

  49. #49
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    Re: Aaron Swartz "Why I'm Not Gay"

    Quote Originally Posted by xbuzzerx View Post
    There's a fundamental difference between "what people are" and how they choose to identify which will always come down to the individual, and telling someone "here's your label, deal with it." Do you think the Irish chose to be considered "nonwhite" in the 19th century?
    As I've said before, labels are general signifiers that are open ended. Which means that they can be used for a myriad of purposes - including discriminatory ones. Of course there will always be behaviours that attempt against the integrity of others (not to mention, against logic itself). However, using incidents in which deliberate actions were taken to isolate a group and justify their marginalization, does not lend validity to the notion that labels do not have a purpose that transcends personal choices. Adjectives define things in a purely epistemological manner, and their use is flexible enough to allow certain individuals to misuse them. That is an issue of power and discrimination, which has to be addressed and fought against, because there is a malicious intent behind the adjudication of a label. However, saying that you reject labels just because you are not happy with what you are and how you want to be perceived by others, is an entirely different matter altogether.

    Allow me to give an example: I am just a human being, but I could be unhappy with that label and choose to self-identify as the Emperor of the Universe and creator of a new race - and then claim that anyone who doesn't accept said label is a bigot who is trying to impose the label "human" on me. That would be just an exercise of delusion rooted in my own personal problems and distorted perceptions, not an attempt to fight against behaviours that impinge on my rights. However, if someone legally uses the label "sodomite" to justify penalizing my emotional responses to other men and my sexual conduct, I could be justified in challenging the intention behind their actions and their use of the adjective, but not the label itself.

    Being called gay or bisexual is not something harmful - it is what some of us are. The fact that we might not like what some people imply when they call us that is an entirely different matter altogether, and that is what should be addressed. Calling ourselves "people" or "sexual" won't change the general meaning of words that reflect our emotional and sexual preferences.

    Quote Originally Posted by G-Lexington View Post
    My general theory is that you can call yourself whatever you want, but you can't dictate what OTHERS call you. I can insist that I do NOT own a car - I own a four-wheel motorcycle with enclosed seating compartment. I can also insist that others call it a four-wheel motorcycle with enclosed seating compartment, and deride those who talk about my "car" as Philistines of the first order that insist on labelling everything. But most people would probably think I had a couple screws loose.

    Got a thing for the opposite gender? Straight.
    Got a thing for the same gender? Gay.
    Got a thing for both genders? Bisexual.

    Does these words tell the whole story? Not even close. But that doesn't mean they don't come in handy.

    Lex
    Excellent point.
    Last edited by Adrusek81; January 14th, 2013 at 04:20 PM.

  50. #50
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    Re: Aaron Swartz "Why I'm Not Gay"

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrusek81 View Post
    As I've said before, labels are general signifiers that are open ended. Which means that they can be used for a myriad of purposes - including discriminatory ones. Of course there will always be behaviours that attempt against the integrity of others (not to mention, against logic itself). However, using incidents in which deliberate actions were taken to isolate a group and justify their marginalization does not lend validity to the notion that labels do not have a purpose that transcends personal choices.
    And if someone personally feels a particular label imparts a greater meaning to which they do not personally ascribe, and therefore they choose not to use the label, what is the problem with that?

    That's my fundamental question here regarding the OP.

    In any other discussion in this forum people will leap to say defining someone else's sexuality for them is wrong. In this case it's everyone getting mad at the OP for choosing not to use a label for a sexual preference. I'm asking why this is a problem.

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